Staying well-armed ... Young pitchers are increasingly at risk of injury

 

Agreed.  Very good guidelines. 

I totally disagree. 

 

1) These kids should focus on their fastball first and foremost, not working on a changeup that won't help them at the next level.  The change up thrown in college and beyond is not the same changeup in h.s. 

 

2) The curveball is a safe pitch when thrown properly.

 

3) Sliders and splitters are dangerous pitches for a h.s. pitcher and should not be thrown at all.

 

 

 

DO WE HAVE ENOUGH QUALIFIED PITCHING INSTRUCTORS WHO COACH AT THE YOUTH LEVELS

Bum,

I agree first work on the fastball.  Then for the second pitch, the change up.  If thrown properly it will help you at the next level, be that HS or college or beyond.  Are you advocating throwing a curveball at ages 8 and 10 as a second pitch because it's safe if thrown properly?  I think the curveball should be unveiled at age 13/14.  Just my opinion.

No, certainly not.  I'm advocating learning to compete with and develop the fastball, through long-toss and sound mechanical training.  The curveball age 13/14 is a good pitch to mix in since it is the equivalent of a changeup anyway.  Go and and use the change just remember you will not master it at the h.s. level.  I don't know any large college coaches that recruit a fastball/change unless the fastball is 90+.  They are looking for a fastball/breaking pitch and be forwarned the slider and especially the splitter are arm killers.

Overuse is definately the main problem, but let's also mention the lack of knowledge of some coaches on how to develop a pitcher. I'm sure we've all seen/heard of conditioning that is being used for baseball players that actually can hurt them more then help. Who has seen baseball teams using drills really for football players? How about youth league coaches or HS for that matter who do not have their pitchers on a pitching program. They usu pitch then go play another position same day. The next several days they do not have a set program to follow they just wait until they get on the mound again. IMO HS coaches need to get special training to work with pitchers, esp when it comes to conditioning.

What it is- its overuse. Trying to push aside the real issue and blame it on something else. Its not throwing breaking balls. They may contribute, but really only in the overall pitch count. Last year on our hs team there were two kids who had elbow pain. Only one was a pitcher, other was a position player. Heres my point- neither one threw a breaking ball! Every arm is different, mechanics change from pitcher to pitcher. Some may be born with greater ligament strength. Some may condition better. Some may have bad luck. Not sure exactly how every case is but I do know that every kid has his threshold. For some it may be one inning while others it may be a complete game. But, its not hard to put two and two together to realize and understand that overusing an arm is not healthy and is definitely the fault in almost every case of throwing injury!

Sliders are not arm killers. Pitching too much- "ARM KILLERS"

Wrong, Skylark. H.S. and college sliders are most definitely arm killers.  I've seen too much of it.  Thank God Bum, Jr. didn't pitch too much at his first college.  They tried to take away his curve and throw a slider that (fortunately) was not a quality pitch.  So he got few innings there.  There were several players on that team that went under the knife.  All slider pitchers.

Bum, your opinion I guess. Fastballs will continue to be the most stressful force on a pitchers arm. Studies even prove that.

It has been shown that the fastball is a cause of arm injury. But so is the slider. Most physicians, physical therapists, and athletic trainers would agree they'd much rather see a kid throw a fastball (and change up) than a slider or a curve ball.

Skylark, if the fastball is the cause of most arm injuries I guess most kids shouldn't throw fastballs, right?  Perhaps frisbees?  Baseball is a game built around the fastball.  Without it, without a good fastball, it is impossible for any kid to pitch at the "next level", whether that level is travel ball, h.s., college or beyond.

 

Throwing a fastball is by definition "fast".  It is a calculated risk to throw a baseball fast.  But not doing so would seal the fate of most any pitcher.  Hang up the cleats, go bowling or join a choir, because your baseball days are over.  Read all the studies that tell you it is so stressful and make your choice.  Quit the game or take the chance.  Without it you quit the game.  Period.

 

Not so when determining which secondary pitches to throw.  The changeup at the lower levels, while effective, is usually thrown improperly and detracts from the ultimate goal (to develop and learn how to command a good fastball).  Kids slow their delivery, open up, and engage in trickery all of which might work but each time one is thrown it is subtracting from the gain that could be had learning to command a hard fastball. 

 

Get to college, and you will quickly learn that kiddie change is merely a BP fastball that goes yard.  Don't kid yourself, your changeup in h.s. is a meatball.  Have fun with it, throw it, get people out with it, but it's subtracting from your development. Try to sign with a D1 college with an average fastball and a B.P. changeup.  Not going to happen!.

 

So you need a solid FASTball and a secondary (breaking) pitch.  Again, the secondary pitch is NOT a B.P. fastball.  That leaves few other options, so choose: a college slider, which will tell your arm "I'm toast" in a year or two or a curveball, which if thrown properly, is harmless.

 

Skylark, I've seen enough of the college sliders to know they're worthless AND dangerous.    

 

I'm NOT saying changeups are bad.  Just consistently saying the changeup in h.s. and in college and beyond are two different pitches.  Two different pitches!

 

 

 

 

 

Bum,

You sure are on this CU kick, hehe! My son has one of the best cu around, when he can command it, ( not very often). Your opinion may be that sliders are bad for the arm, perhaps bad for your kids arm. Whatever, you have your opinion. Let me ask this- how many professional pitchers throw a breaking ball over 80 mph? How many throw a cutter over 85 mph? The "slider" is a pitch that is thrown with mechanics somewhere between a traditional curve ball and the fastball. The cutter is very similar to the slider but then again, so is the traditional curve ball. So, how many professional pitchers are on the road to ruin because they throw a slider or cutter, or any "hard" breaking ball? You can learn to throw any pitch safely. Like I said before, we had 2 kids on our hs team that had chronic inside elbow pain. Neither one of them pitch a breaking ball. Why is it then that there were also 2 kids on our hs team that threw hard breaking balls that have never had chronic elbow pain?

This reminds me of some of those baseball camps where they go into all these drills supposedly to protect your arm and increase velocity and efficiency saying this or that is bad and yet, you go watch video of long term professional successful pitchers and they do everything opposite of what you learned at camp.

It is amazing how misinformed and naive people can be. Bum, you are absolutely 100% incorrect about a change up not being a secondary pitch that college programs look for.  It absolutely IS.  Yes, command of a curve is necessary too however the fastball and changeup are the top two pitches considered.  How much movement does the FB and changeup have with command.  

 

Sliders are the most harmful to any arm.  Period.  This is the risk pitchers take when they choose to have a slider as one of their pitches.  Many do NOT throw it.  If you have command of various fastballs with movement, a nice changeup that is in the range of 10-12mph off the FB and have a curve that has late break with better velocity in a 12-6 to 1-7 rotation, then you have THE 3 pitches to take you to any level.  ANY level.  I include "cutters" as FB pitches because it is a "cut fastball".  Meaning, fastball thrown with movement, due to a different grip than just a 2 seam or 4 seam.  

 

I have been to the last ASMI seminars.  There is more science out today than ever.  I am not sure about your background but it seems sketchy from the words you speak.  Many things are not done "old school" any more.  Long toss beyond 120' for pitchers is purely harmful, NOT sound conditioning.  That is just one example.  

 

Over usage is a bad thing.  That's why THE programs that are true programs, have a rotation, pitch counts and a full off season/ in season conditioning that is isolated for pitchers deceleration  and acceleration areas.  Come on people.  Get informed.  Get some knowledge before you somehow try to persuade people of your opinion in an attempt to "help" I guess,    

What to throw, how old, etc. all depends on the pitcher.  IE: I did not let my son throw a CB until he could throw his FB for strikes... a lot of strikes.  Then we moved onto the CU - again, for strikes.  Mixed in a CB (slowly) at 13.  To this day (he’s 15 now) I still have to remind him to back off on the CB and rely on his FB/CU.  Pitchers live off their FB and deceive hitters with off speed when the situation dictates.  He loves to throw his CB because he is successful and feels comfortable with it, but throwing it 2-3 times in a row because his CU isn’t working is not a good thing and often results in hard hit balls.  There is no magic rhyme or reason to when or how you teach a young pitcher to throw various pitchers, but one thing is for sure - all pitchers are not created equally and they develop at different rates. 

Fastballs are the most dangerous pitch on the arm. The fastball has been to show having the greatest stress on both the shoulder and elbow. When you couple that fact with kids playing more baseball than they should, you have what is called "overuse". Overuse is the number one leading cause for pitching/throwing injuries. Studies have shown that pitchers who throw breaking balls (including sliders) are no more at risk than those who don't.  Again- Ask yourself these questions on the health of your kids arm-

 

Does my kid pitch while injured or fatigued?

Does my kid play baseball more than 8 months out of the year?

Does my kid play multiple position that require a lot of throwing after he pitches?

Does my kid throw over 80 mph?

 

Answering yes to any of these questions places your kid at an increased risk for injury (yes, even just throwing hard increases risk). This means you should be aware of the main risk factors and learn to stop, limit, or control those situations. No one should be pitch9ing more than 8 months out of the year. No one should pitch while fatigued or injured. Pitchers should rest after pitching. If your kid throws at 80 mph or above he really needs to learn to stretch properly and condition his muscles and ligaments to prevent injury.

Skylark - I’m going to give you the same perspective my surgeon gave me 20 years ago.  Pitching (a baseball) is one of the most unnatural and violent motions to the human body.  The rotator cuff was not meant to throw overhand with any force at all.  Hence the reason fast pitch softball pitcher can throw all day and in some cases two days in a row... it’s really not that uncommon to see a young lady pitch a complete game then throw a few more the next day... but overhand pitching... the human body just wasn’t made for it.  Think about that for a minute. 

 

Now - Ill say this, having been the recipient of reconstructive surgery (RT rotator cuff).  Pitching has its dangers and risks associated.  But they can be mitigated with proper instruction on mechanics, conditioning specific to pitchers, and arm care.  I don’t care what pitch you throw.  If it is thrown with poor mechanics, no strength and conditioning program, the arm is overused whether it is in a bullpen, on the mound or playing a position... you will end up with a 4" scar just like many others. 

bballdad2016,

 I agree, proper mechanics coupled with proper conditioning and rest is a recipe for a long career regardless of what pitches you actually throw.

 

We had one pitcher last year, horrible mechanics, could only go 1-3 innings and then have to have a week off to rehab the sore elbow. He only threw fastballs btw.

Good post Coach Rob.

A lot of this is a matter of opinion and how it is perceived.

My son didn't throw a true CB in HS more like a slurve but did not rely on it for success. He threw a 4 seam, a 2 seam (with different grips) and a CU 9with different grips) and he did just fine in college and at the next level until he began throwing a true slider and developed shoulder then elbow problems (again only after he began relying more on the slider).

So I truely believe that the slider is a very harmful pitch. He began throwing a cutter at the end of last season, now being a reliever, his secondary stuff does not have to be AS important as his 96-99 mph fastball or his 88-89 sinker (both with lots of movement).  Movement becomes more important the higher one goes up the ladder.  If your FB doesn't have that movement, you better have a good secondary pitch to keep them off balance or you are not going anywhere.

 

First and foremost the FB, no matter how "fast" it may be, needs to be THE most important pitch for ANY pitcher.  Not the straight down the middle FB, but the one that moves up, down, inside, outside and this DOES take a long time to command, so yes, do not let your young pitcher give up this pitch for the breaking ball.

I do not agree with everything being said, but I agree that the CU is much different at the pro level.  A HS pitcher with good FB with movement and a decent change will get lots of opportunities at the college level, the velocity being the game changer. 

Yes pitching fast can cause injury, mix that in with CB, slider and overuse WILL cause injury. I leave out CU for reasons discussed.

 

I also believe that for many tossing past 120 feet can be harmful.

 

Coach Rob is definetly got it right. You will not see that many injuries in pitchers in the really good programs because they know how to use their staff, know how to develop good pitching by montoring pitch counts and know how to do specific pitcher conditioning off season as well as in season.

 

He is also correct in the statement that any pro pitcher that throws a slider knows the implications and many abandon the pitch after they develop elbow issues. If this causes issues in mature pitchers why would you want your HS pitcher throwing one?

 

 

For what it is worth- I watch a lot of pro ball and I see guys with horrible CU's- not any different than high school. We talk about a big league change-up and stuff but in reality the only real  difference is velocity. I see professional pitchers who slow the arm motion down, change arm slot, etc. when throwing their cu. On the flip side I have seen kids in hs with scarier than @#%$ change-ups. There are fewer kids in hs that throw convincing cu's, but you see the same thing in professional ball too. Not very many professional p[itchers who use a cu as their out pitch- just not convincing enough.

I agree with you, it is not an easy pitch, that is why the earlier a pitcher is taught the concept, the easier it can be, notice that I said CAN.  The mechanics HAVE to be repeated the same as the FB, to be effective. My son was tipping that pitch for awhile, he would change his slot with a CU.  They won't notice it in HS, but the better hitters will pick it up in college and pro ball. A pro pitcher can have a very good change in his arsenal, one of the folks that posts here has a son in pro ball with an excellent change up!

 

Most pro pitchers will tell you that they can't throw a good change up because they weren't taught the proper mechanics to begin with, and they had more success with using a CB and easier pitch to pick up.  Sometimes it is the lastpitch they add to their arsenal. The better the FB (with velocity) with two more decent offerings the higher the draft selection.

 

FWIW, my son is 27 and still in the game, and he would not change one thing as to what he did, and that includes NOT using a breaking ball more consistantly after HS.

 

 

 

Other than you might watch of "lot of pro ball" (does that still mean the Pioneer league) there really is not much validity to anything in your post.  Pitching coaches far and wide would be getting fired left and right if, in Milb and in MLB,  they were turning out pitchers who telegraph their change in the ways described in this post.

The continued attempt to suggest HS pitchers/pitches are of the the same or better quality as those in MLB or the higher levels of Milb is awfully good evidence of a poster lacking knowledge or credibility.

One more thing I have said and will again, a LOT of what a pitcher throws has to do with whether he throws from the left or the right side and his velocity.

Originally Posted by TPM:

I agree with you, it is not an easy pitch, ...

 

I agree with you other than the above. In fact, I think the problem it gives people so much trouble, is because its so easy to throw. Before you clutch your heart, give me a chance to explain.

 

Other than a straight out 4 seamer thrown with top velocity for a pitcher, every other pitch is “CU”, or “Change of Speed”, or “Off Speed” pitch. Literally anything that the pitcher does to vary from the ol’ #1, will affect its velocity, and just that alone will affect the way it acts. That’s what makes it hard to “master”. The pitch is a piece of cake to throw, but its hard as all get out to throw consistently.

 

The only way to throw it consistently, is guess what? PRACTICE. The reason its not very often a high quality pitch until a player gets into pro ball, is because that’s often how long it takes to have practiced it long enough to make it a GREAT pitch rather than just a CU.

2 seam, 4 seam and 2 types of cutters (vertical and horizontal lets say for those who do not understand) are all thrown the same.  Same mechanics, same velocity.  The only difference is the end result of the movement and placement.  There are 2 cutters that should vary 2-3 mph off from the others solely because of "drag", not because of different velocity or mechanics.

 

Listen, I agree that every player is different in many ways.  The build and makeup being the biggest difference.  However, with that said, mechanics are the same overall except for those who have good results with a terrible mechanical delivery.  Those are few and far between and do NOT have a very long career.  YES, pitching overhand is NOT natural for the human body.  It is what we are willing to accept to play the game as we know it though.  Intelligent, proper off season with a good in season program, combined with the commitment to be mechanically sound will help with this unnatural motion as much as possible.  

 

I have 2 sons. One throws from each side.  My oldest is in the upper 80's with one year to go, my youngest is in the low 80's with 3 years to go. I have played and coached for many years.  I have made it a point to be informed and involved in today's science.  Here's my last info on this matter:

 

Do NOT be in a hurry for your kid to be a standout at the cost of his arm just because you are NOT informed and rely and trust some guys who are coaches or instructors.  Not everyone involved in the game knows very much about the game.  Yes, and I may get cussed at for this but, there are D1 programs out there that have terrible pitching coaches/philosophy and it is apparent when you dig into their programs.  (look to see about past player injuries, transfers, etc to see how they do NOT retain a pitching staff). Teach your kids sound fundamentals/mechanics first before anything.  FBs only until they are 10/11.  Then work in a circle or 3 finger change for off speed.  These are not hard on the arm whatsoever.  At 14/15, you should start the "concept" of a curve in practice without throwing it full bullpen.  Small drills working on grip and rotation only.  At 17, you should have developed a full curve and use it very very sparingly in your last HS year into your senior summer.  Do NOT throw long toss beyond 120'.  Make sure you have a running program implemented into your training and focus on pylometric training that is meant for the specific position of pitching.  Mechanics always to keep bad habits from forming when in the middle to end of your season and the ability to say NO to a coach who often sits on a bucket and calls signs that results in deception pitches that will end your velocity (aka velocity) before you get going.  Most of the guys on the buckets have never pitched before and have some old school mentality that a curve is the only "out" pitch a pitcher has.  That is sooooo NOT true.

 

On and btw, most MLB guys will quickly tell you that when they introduce a slider into their arsenal, their velocity decreases quickly.  Just fyi. Many do NOt throw it and are very effective.

 

Good luck to all......For Love of the Game~

Coach Rod, you need to think twice before you attack a long-time poster such as myself as "misinformed", "naive", and "sketchy".  Then you tell me to "get informed". So what are your credentials other than your coach logo?  So you've got two boys that throw mid-to-upper 80's, ok that's good.  Mine is throwing low 90's from the left side in pro ball but so what?

 

BTW Coach, perhaps to your well-informed horror, he has long-tossed his entire life, threw curveballs since age 13, and yes, has a plus change. 

 

You can attack what I say but NOT my credibility.

Coach Rod (sorry got that wrong first time),
I disagree with the 2 and 4 seamer being the same velocity. 
I do agree with your timeline.

Coach Rod has some good advice and bad advice, but that is the nature of pitching and knowing what to do.

 

Couple of points that in some ways are minor.

 

1. You can learn a curve around 16YO's old. The issue is not the curve but how it is thrown. I have yet to meet a kid who will "learn the concepts" of it and not be throwing it to his buddies when daddy and the coaches are away. Teach him it and let him throw it in front of everyone.

 

2. Not all mechanics are the same. There are so many variations in bodies and approaches it is amazing. Certain check points are the same, but how you get there are vastly different.

 

3. Agree with stick with the FB and CU until 16.

 

4. Running programs as funny as it may sound have little to do with pitching. (or baseball for that) other than some preseason preconditioning, sprints are very important, and running post game, but I am sure this may be taken wrong but at least long distances don't do much for baseball players.

 

Now lifting, core, explosive, boxes, pylos, yoga, etc is a whole nother discussion.

 

5. Long toss to 120 feet. This is stone age pre-2005 MLB hard head philosophy. 

 

6. If you want to REALLY understand deception, read Perry Husband's books on effective velocity. They should be a must read for every pitcher and coach IMO.

 

7. Frankly overuse is the key problem for young arms so I agree don't let overzealous youth coaches destroy their arms. The real danger however starts when they BEGIN to throw over 85-86. 

 

Of course all we want is the best for our kids so each will find their own path as best they can with the information available.

 

Best of luck to your sons!

 

 

 

Somebody call Ron Wolforth, he is needed on this topic. 

This is okay, for those who want to error on the side caution.  I think 15 is better, for the simple reason is it takes a few seasons to master so to get to a quality pitch in h.s. I'd start two years before the junior year in h.s., for the simple reason that the junior season is the most important for showcasing and for some getting serious attention from colleges.

 

But 16 is okay for most.  Coach Rod was saying don't seriously begin throwing it until your senior year in h.s.  Too late.

 

 

I am not saying hs pitchers are better than pro pitchers, even with the CU. By saying I watch a lot of "pro ball" I am meaning it in the sense of watching it on television. I do get out to minor league games but in truth, it doesnt matter if you watch them on tv or live- you know a good pitch when you see it. The hardest thing for any pitcher to throw the cu is creating identical arm action as the fastball coupled with some ability to command it. I can say positively that 80% of mlb pitchers tip their cu in their delivery and that as a fact, the cu in mlb is not generally an out pitch for the majority of pitchers. Pitching coaches at all levels do not get fired if they cant produce great  change-ups from their pitchers.  Honestly, most pro pitchers live off the fastball and break8ng ball

Aw, c'mon Skylark.  You can pick 80% of the cu's, watching on TV? is that because you get the cf view off the camera to see the catcher's signals?  So, I believe every Giant pitcher except Romo who lives off the slider and Vogelsang who lives 2 seam/4 seam use the cu and have it be a major part of their approach. A great cu off 93mph made Matt Cain about $140,000,000 and a dominant pitcher.  Which Giant tips his cu..Cain, #55, Zito, Lopez????

The level by which pitchers command  each pitch, including the cu, improves from Rookie ball to AAA is the reason some end up on a MLB roster and so many don't.

MLB hitters would crush a pitcher if they picked the pitches.

Again, to suggest you pick 80% of the MLB cu's is more evidence of the fact your comments just are not believable.

Infielddad,

Aw, cmon, I am serious. Almost every pitcher who throws a changeup slows up or changes their mechanics. That includes mlb pitchers. The good changeup pitchers in the pros go  far and get paid lots of money, its true. But those standout changeup pitchers are not common even in mlb. The effectiveness of the breaking ball has taken over the sport. Accord8ng to stats I have researched, the most common offspeed pitch is the breaking ball. When ahead in a count such as  an 0-1 or 0-2 count mlb pitchers throw the break8ng ball twice as much as the changeup. I suspect that the reason being is that the breaking ball, on average, is more effective at getting the desired result- an out.

When I see a truly good changeup with great arm speed and plenty of whiffs I love it, its truly a thing of pure beauty! The problem is that there are so few who can do it and repeat it time after time.

Skylark,

You are literally insulting every MLB and Milb pitcher and hitter with your comments.

If the cu is being tipped by so many, they would not be in MLB or Milb very long because the opponents BA would be off the charts.  If they were tipping the cu and not getting hit, that is the ultimate insult to hitters and MLB/Milb coaches by suggesting you see things they don't.

Sorry, not buying anything you are trying to sell here.

Infielddad,

Take it for what it is worth but why do you suppose the changeup is the least thrown of the 4 main pitches in professional baseball? In order the fastball is most frequent followed by the slider, then the curve ball and lastly- the changeup. My theory- its the hardest pitch in baseball to learn to throw and be effective at. Not only is it very hard to duplicate fastball mechanics so as not to tip the batter, it is hard to command and draws less strikes, on average.  Its more common to see a breaking ball in a pitchers count than a changeup because it is easy to duplicate fastball mechanics, easier to command, and the pitch has greater movement.

So if it's the least thrown, and hardest to command, why are you and coach Rod advocating it?

 

The power of the change up is how it complements the fastball.  That's the answer.  The changeup (unless you're Jamie Moyer) was never intended to be an out pitch.  But without it the value of the fastball is severely diminished.  It keeps hitters honest and off-balanced.  It's like bluffing at poker.  At the h.s. level the value of the fastball can never be determined until it is located with command and velocity, which in turn is why the h.s. changeup is worthless for a pitcher attempting to get to the next level.  The average h.s. hitter can't hit velocity.  And the average h.s. pitcher has never learned to compete with his fastball.  Do you get this difference?

Skylark- I thoroughly look forward to your contributions to these boards, as I have duly noted many times in the past. Your research in pitching trends and what you see in HD from the centerfield camera angle on your television are so obviously far more advanced than any of the scouting technology and material that professional organizations use, it comes as no surprise that your conclusions are so vividly and accurately detailed.

 

Its 2:30 AM here on the east coast and I'm up reviewing the tutorials for the advanced scouting software that I will be introduced to as I embark on a job within the advanced scouting department of an MLB team in a few months. The information in this tutorial was something that I perceived as being very daunting upon receiving it, but since you've provided us with your information, my work in learning the technology and contributing to the department is no longer needed.

 

I'll be sure to refer all of the professional hitters and pitchers that I will be getting paid to work with to you.

 

JT wait what?! How exciting for you! I don't read the boards like I used to, but you are someone I try to keep up with. :-) Good luck with this exciting new career. 

 

as to this topic, it really is all wear and tear, but the curve ball is the worst. People just need to be smart and realize that a 12u championship team really isn't all that important if a child had the drive/talent to play high school or beyond. 

Thanks JH, hehe.
All I am saying is that 8 out of 10 professional pitchers tip their changeup at some point in their delivery. The other 20% have mastered the effect and it is truly great. If the majority of mlb pitchers could effectively throw the changeup, you would see it thrown more often, perhaps more than breaking balls. But you dont and probably will not see a comeback by the change anytime soon.