The elusive full ride

Not sure why anyone would have angst over the current size of these events... I haven't read enough on this site to see how prevalent those opinions are... was just cruising through yesterday and saw this full ride topic. 

The reason value remains even with large talent disparities is - going into the event the organizers mostly know where the talent is, and what teams are there to help fund their event. 

The teams known to have higher level talent will more often than not get scheduled prime time slots... these teams have a fairly straightforward path to the later rounds.  This allows more pitchers to be seen, and more at-bats to be had.  More prominent programs get more opportunities to showcase more guys. 

There is a lot of concern out there right now regarding what's happening with pitchers during events, especially those that occur during times when pitchers should not be throwing  (example before HS season begins).

I think this adds to the overall dislike for certain organizations.

Well, it isn't just organizations such as PBR and PG that are hosting events in December and January prior to high school seasons start.   Most of the Colleges are also holding prospect camps during these months as well.   My son's email inbox is full of camp and showcase invites that are taking place during the "Off season" in which pitchers aren't ready to throw at Maximum effort.   

IMO, hosting an instructional camp for one day is a bit different than sponsoring a weekend  tournament.

The blame goes out to everyone including parents.

@edwarday posted:

Not sure why anyone would have angst over the current size of these events... I haven't read enough on this site to see how prevalent those opinions are... was just cruising through yesterday and saw this full ride topic.

The reason value remains even with large talent disparities is - going into the event the organizers mostly know where the talent is, and what teams are there to help fund their event.

The teams known to have higher level talent will more often than not get scheduled prime time slots... these teams have a fairly straightforward path to the later rounds.  This allows more pitchers to be seen, and more at-bats to be had.  More prominent programs get more opportunities to showcase more guys.

The angst over the current size of these events is that it results in a lot of people bashing these events bec they didn't get the results they were looking for (getting noticed and offers).  The marketing of these events lead to unrealistic expectations to the "teams that are just there to fund the events".  The thought being thrown around is to skip the 2 or 3 pool play games that are of no value (legit teams being pitted against teams that are just there to fund the events).  Go straight to the legit primetime games.

I would add Jupiter and Ft Myers to the list of PG events that are legit.  I believe for Jupiter, a team has to still earn their berth, right?  My son caught the interest of the mid major school he ended up committing to in Jupiter facing and catching really good 90+ mph pitching.

The angst is because if you are not on one of those top teams, you get to the big tournaments and realize how useless it is for recruiting, and that you are playing at high schools all over the area, and then you wonder why you are spending all that money.

But really people should be angry with their travel teams for pushing them to those tournaments, rather than the tournaments for grabbing for the money.  If there were more honesty in recruiting, those tournaments would not be nearly as large.  But there is so much ignorance about recruiting that when you are told "you want to be on this team because it goes to Georgia", if you don't know better (we did not) you just do it.

On the other hand, it is fun to hang with the top teams and sometimes beat them, or to have a personal good game against a top competitor, and I do think the players learn a lot through competing against tougher competition than they would find at home.

This should really be its own thread about travel teams and recruiting.

@Ster posted:

Well, it isn't just organizations such as PBR and PG that are hosting events in December and January prior to high school seasons start.   Most of the Colleges are also holding prospect camps during these months as well.   My son's email inbox is full of camp and showcase invites that are taking place during the "Off season" in which pitchers aren't ready to throw at Maximum effort.   

I think this is different than a tournament in Dec/Jan. When my 2020 was heading into his junior (recruiting) year, we knew several schools he'd had contact with had camps end of Jan or beginning of Feb. Knowing this we made sure his off season was structured around being able to throw at these, which were essentially 20-35 pitch bullpens. We also had PBR events in mid Feb, which was another 20-35 pitch bullpen. This timing is based on the Northeast, I know players in  other locations may be further along by this time of year.

@anotherparent posted:

The angst is because if you are not on one of those top teams, you get to the big tournaments and realize how useless it is for recruiting, and that you are playing at high schools all over the area, and then you wonder why you are spending all that money.

But really people should be angry with their travel teams for pushing them to those tournaments, rather than the tournaments for grabbing for the money.  If there were more honesty in recruiting, those tournaments would not be nearly as large.  But there is so much ignorance about recruiting that when you are told "you want to be on this team because it goes to Georgia", if you don't know better (we did not) you just do it.

On the other hand, it is fun to hang with the top teams and sometimes beat them, or to have a personal good game against a top competitor, and I do think the players learn a lot through competing against tougher competition than they would find at home.

This should really be its own thread about travel teams and recruiting.

Should be time and date appropriate. A summer tourney in GA is not the same as an instructional camp on a GA college campus in Jan, Feb.

This is why so many really good players suffer injury before college.

Big part of it is parents thinking their son may miss out on being seen.

@atlnon posted:

The angst over the current size of these events is that it results in a lot of people bashing these events bec they didn't get the results they were looking for (getting noticed and offers).  The marketing of these events lead to unrealistic expectations to the "teams that are just there to fund the events".  The thought being thrown around is to skip the 2 or 3 pool play games that are of no value (legit teams being pitted against teams that are just there to fund the events).  Go straight to the legit primetime games.

I would add Jupiter and Ft Myers to the list of PG events that are legit.  I believe for Jupiter, a team has to still earn their berth, right?  My son caught the interest of the mid major school he ended up committing to in Jupiter facing and catching really good 90+ mph pitching.

There is a lot of truth in this post.   My son has/had one D1 offer, and it came as a result of his performance at Jupiter Florida.   Had he not attended that event then I am 100% certain he would have never been on the radar of the college that he committed to.   So, it's hard for me to agree with those that believe that the big national tournaments have no value.  But, I do agree that they don't have value for everyone.   Perfect game has a Showcase or tournament just about every other weekend if not every weekend.  The majority of those events have no real benefit to player recruitment.  Coaches don't go and scout those events routinely.  They are simply tournaments that give players and opportunity to play, get reps etc... and there is value in that, but not value for recruiting purposes in my opinion. 

The programs that I would list as being the most important from my observation and experience are Perfect Game Jr. National Showcase, PBR national tournament in Lake Point Georgia, WWBA Perfect Game National Championship, WWBA Perfect Game Jr. National Championship in Ft Myers, and the WWBA National Championship in Jupiter. 

I list these events because I simply noticed that a) it seems a ton of college scouts attend these events, and more importantly b) most if not all of the kids I know that committed to D1 programs this past year did so almost immediately following these events.

My son has played on essentially a "funding" (I have no issue with this term) team for the big PBR and PG tourneys in GA.  Limited expectation to get out of pool play, and certainly no expectation of having any playoff round success.  Go .500 or better in pool play and generally call it a worthwhile trip.  Kids have a blast socially, compete pretty well in a couple games, usually get humbled in one, and perhaps humble another team every once in a while.  The travel team sets expectations in line with these team based outcomes.

As for individual recruiting, these tournaments were still instrumental for my son.  Candidly, my son had something to "showcase" which is most instrumental. The ability to be seen by recruiters as a pitcher while on one of these "funding" teams is certainly easier than a position player.  PBR having the bulk of games at Lakepoint is also a benefit over the dispersion of PG.  Having your coach align your starting pitching spot with in a good time slot and location (Lakepoint or East Cobb game) is critical.  Doing the leg work both in advance of tournament (by player) and at the tournament (travel coach walking around the complex giving coaches the heads up about a potential recruit) is beneficial.  If you can give these recruiters two looks in back to back weeks/tournaments, even better.  And don't forget, these recruiters are like fishermen.  A few gathered in a spot gets the attention of all the others.

So, the big tournaments were legit for my son even though he played for a "funding" team.  While my son is a '25, his team is a '24 team so they will actually not be heading back this summer. Focus on more regional tournaments in which the recruiters are more aligned with both a recruiting timeline and playing level with the bulk of the team (which I think is the right decision for a '24 team). 

@Ster posted:

There is a lot of truth in this post.   My son has/had one D1 offer, and it came as a result of his performance at Jupiter Florida.   Had he not attended that event then I am 100% certain he would have never been on the radar of the college that he committed to.   So, it's hard for me to agree with those that believe that the big national tournaments have no value.  But, I do agree that they don't have value for everyone.   Perfect game has a Showcase or tournament just about every other weekend if not every weekend.  The majority of those events have no real benefit to player recruitment.  Coaches don't go and scout those events routinely.  They are simply tournaments that give players and opportunity to play, get reps etc... and there is value in that, but not value for recruiting purposes in my opinion.

The programs that I would list as being the most important from my observation and experience are Perfect Game Jr. National Showcase, PBR national tournament in Lake Point Georgia, WWBA Perfect Game National Championship, WWBA Perfect Game Jr. National Championship in Ft Myers, and the WWBA National Championship in Jupiter.

I list these events because I simply noticed that a) it seems a ton of college scouts attend these events, and more importantly b) most if not all of the kids I know that committed to D1 programs this past year did so almost immediately following these events.

I agree. My son had a few D1 offers but the one that really mattered was from the coach that saw him at Jupiter as a junior.

There are some tournaments that are epic and well attended by coaches. But some folks don't realize there are quiet periods when coaches can't attend. I believe that D1 baseball coaches are in a quiet period until February.

It's not just the tournaments but what happens when your player is pitching. Are his pitch counts accurate, has he pitched a day too soon? What are the tournament rules? What happens when a team throws their pitchers and breaks the rules? Who is responsible, the promoters, the coaches, the umpires?

Folks want accountability and that's a positive step in the right direction. Many parents, not necessarily here, have no idea of appropriate pitch counts. And tournament coaches want to win, so some believe pitch counts are overlooked.

Just one of the reasons why some don't care for some events and why this MLK country wide event is getting negative attention.

Sorry to get off topic. I think this is an important topic.

Or maybe it isn't. Parents are sending their players, trusting the coaches, to tournament after tournament trying to get an opportunity for a scholarship.

That's why it's important to make a plan.

All of my son's offers and contacts came from the "big" tournaments.  I can totally understand the negative feelings but that's how recruiting goes.

My son was pitching at a fall tourney in PHX in 2021.  5 coaches watched his outing.  The minute he hit his pitch limit all the coaches packed up their stuff and left.   The father of the next pitcher looked at me and said, "Well, I guess they saw what they came here to see.  I wish we'd not have spent the money."

@25Dad posted:

My son has played on essentially a "funding" (I have no issue with this term) team for the big PBR and PG tourneys in GA.  Limited expectation to get out of pool play, and certainly no expectation of having any playoff round success.  Go .500 or better in pool play and generally call it a worthwhile trip.  Kids have a blast socially, compete pretty well in a couple games, usually get humbled in one, and perhaps humble another team every once in a while.  The travel team sets expectations in line with these team based outcomes.

As for individual recruiting, these tournaments were still instrumental for my son.  Candidly, my son had something to "showcase" which is most instrumental. The ability to be seen by recruiters as a pitcher while on one of these "funding" teams is certainly easier than a position player.  PBR having the bulk of games at Lakepoint is also a benefit over the dispersion of PG.  Having your coach align your starting pitching spot with in a good time slot and location (Lakepoint or East Cobb game) is critical.  Doing the leg work both in advance of tournament (by player) and at the tournament (travel coach walking around the complex giving coaches the heads up about a potential recruit) is beneficial.  If you can give these recruiters two looks in back to back weeks/tournaments, even better.  And don't forget, these recruiters are like fishermen.  A few gathered in a spot gets the attention of all the others.

So, the big tournaments were legit for my son even though he played for a "funding" team.  While my son is a '25, his team is a '24 team so they will actually not be heading back this summer. Focus on more regional tournaments in which the recruiters are more aligned with both a recruiting timeline and playing level with the bulk of the team (which I think is the right decision for a '24 team).

/\ /\  As far as showcase tournaments go, this guy gets it.  The issues being put forth unfortunately just boil down to unrealistic expectations for some.

At the big tournaments the coaches/scouts are there, and the talent they want to see is there.  Are there some games at PG and Bullpen events played away from the spotlight?  Yes.  Last summer I watched a pitcher going to a Mid-Major D1 absolutely demoralize multiple teams away from the main event locations.  Why?  Because he wanted to go to a smaller, closer school where he was already committed, and he enjoyed being around his friends on the team.  The coach had opportunities to show other pitchers at the main locations, including our son.   

The inclusion of the 'funding teams' at the big events means the chance and opportunity are there for more players.  But ultimately the players and their families still bear the responsibility of being realistic going into the events... there's enough information out there to help people level-set expectations.

Anyhow... full ride tuition scholarships do exist... edited for clarity. 

" Perfect Game Jr. National Showcase, PBR national tournament in Lake Point Georgia, WWBA Perfect Game National Championship, WWBA Perfect Game Jr. National Championship in Ft Myers, and the WWBA National Championship in Jupiter. "

I think PBR futures needs to be added to this list.  There were more college scouts there than any other event we went to and we were at all of the above except Jr. National Showcase because we only did tournaments and not showcases.

FWIW a full ride scholarship has always been recognized as all expenses being covered, including books, tuition, fees, room, and board. Essentially everything except spending money.
  A scholarship that covers tuition only, while very significant, is not a full ride scholarship. No matter what semantics are used. In fact, I have never even heard of anyone trying to define a scholarship that covers tuition only as “full ride” until recently.
  When it comes to baseball, at 4 year schools, I am unaware of any player that has been given a 100% (all expenses covered) baseball scholarship for the entire 3-4 yr stay on campus since the 11.7 scholarship limit was put in place. I suppose it’s possible but only to lure a first round talent to campus instead of signing out of HS. PT Wood’s kid might fit that description but not many others do. The full ride situations that I have heard about all involved a combination of athletic money, scholastic money, and grants/awards. Or one year may be covered at 100% but the prior or following years were not.
  I think some people like to redefine the situation to suit themselves. So I’m not sure we are all talking about the same thing.
 

How many players attend tournaments/showcases designed for D1 recruits unknown, throw spaghetti off the wall to see what sticks and it works? I believe the biggest disappointment with these D1 tournaments is the players and families who attend and don’t understand the kid is not a D1 prospect.

A friend complained repeatedly her son’s team never saw a college scout. And they played on out of the way fields. It was because it was a roster of future D3 players. If you don’t live in the area it’s expensive to attend. My son was covered by the team. I spent a lot of money getting there, renting a car and staying in GA and FL for back to back PG tournaments.

Another thing is if you’re there hoping to be discovered how does a player distinguish himself from a thousand other players? The top two hundred players can do it. But, everyone already knows who they are. On any given day #500 prospect doesn’t look much different than #900. There’s a lot of talent at these tournaments.

This is why I so often speak about a player having an advocate whether it’s the travel team coaching staff or academy instructor who knows people in the game. When my son’s team attended events the calls to college coaches had been made by the travel coaches. Based on perceived fit the travel coaches filled in the colleges coaches which players on their team were likely to be seen as potential fits for their program. The players knew what college programs would be at their games watching them.

Throwing spaghetti off the wall to see what sticks isn’t a plan.

Incidentally, at some schools, room and board for a year (on-campus) costs more than in-state tuition.

Been on both sides of it. Made the semis of the WWBA with a national program and went 2-5 and 3-4 with more regional teams.

The biggest difference is pitching. The local team might be able to hang with the better teams in the bracket for a few innings. Our first guy may have been 90 but first in relief was most likely 82-85 coming off SS. The big teams have 93, followed by 90 LHP, followed by 93 again.

Even in the years we left with losing records - the kids were still getting plenty of looks and offers in the weeks following. Seems there is really one team that doesn't belong in every bracket. Could probably do without but even the teams towards the bottom - they're usually competitive with everyone except maybe the bracket winner. But it's hard to be competitive against a team with 25+ D1 commits and you only have 15/16 guys.

It's easy to look down from the top but there is still good baseball beyond the scout teams and the big national programs.

Also - don't know what funding teams are - they almost all pay.

@anotherparent posted:

Incidentally, at some schools, room and board for a year (on-campus) costs more than in-state tuition.

Don't forget they are now sneaking in $$ from NLI to help cover expenses.

Ah, but NIL money is entirely unregulated by the NCAA or conferences, right?  So whereas a scholarship stated in an NLI, at a P5, would be valid all four years, the NIL group could change things around from year to year.

And, who would be telling them to do that?  The coach?  The boosters?  The companies that supposedly want to hire these athletes?  Which really illustrates the total corruption that NIL is producing, in cases where there are collectives that are using it in recruiting and retention.

@anotherparent

I don't know the answer to your question. Are P5 scholarships awarded to transfers? I am pretty sure it's used to help those in need of help, if the coach wants the player that badly.  Not just throw money at them but they would have to be involved in some type of activity.

Some states have NLI rules in place, others do not.

@anotherparent posted:

Ah, but NIL money is entirely unregulated by the NCAA or conferences, right?  So whereas a scholarship stated in an NLI, at a P5, would be valid all four years, the NIL group could change things around from year to year.

And, who would be telling them to do that?  The coach?  The boosters?  The companies that supposedly want to hire these athletes?  Which really illustrates the total corruption that NIL is producing, in cases where there are collectives that are using it in recruiting and retention.

100% happening. There are also coaches asking current players to trade out scholarships for NIL. It might all be the same money , but the guarantee just went from four years to one. Parents and kids need to know and understand the rules. I assure you that the coaches do.  

@baseballhs posted:

100% happening. There are also coaches asking current players to trade out scholarships for NIL. It might all be the same money , but the guarantee just went from four years to one. Parents and kids need to know and understand the rules. I assure you that the coaches do.  

Excellent post. I hope that people on the HSBBW are listening to you.

@baseballhs posted:

100% happening. There are also coaches asking current players to trade out scholarships for NIL. It might all be the same money , but the guarantee just went from four years to one. Parents and kids need to know and understand the rules. I assure you that the coaches do.  

I assumed that all Athletic Scholarships were one year guarantees.   Am I wrong about that?  Does it vary from school to school?

@Ster posted:

I assumed that all Athletic Scholarships were one year guarantees.   Am I wrong about that?  Does it vary from school to school?

P5 are 4 years. They changed it in 2017, I believe.  It only applies if you receive scholarship your freshman year.

(I think transfers are now guaranteed scholarship from the time they transfer until they graduate as well.)

All bets are off if you “voluntarily “ give it up a year.

From SI article last May.

https://www.si.com/college/202...ters-laws-recruiting

What's taxable?  I'm assuming NIL $ is federally taxable.  What about athletic scholarships?

@Tres Elakes 24 posted:

What's taxable?  I'm assuming NIL $ is federally taxable.  What about athletic scholarships?

All scholarships are tax free so long as the money is spent on qualified educational expenses.  I don't see how NIL proceeds are not taxed as income regardless of how the money is spent.

https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc421

By the way, @baseballhs is correct, you can replace with NIL $$.

I am not sure if that applies to schools in certain states or not. And it does seem that the NCAA isn't paying attention at this moment.

I think a few athletes are getting a rude awakening about now when they start to receive their W2's or 1099's.  They are wondering what are these things and what do I do with this.  I have to pay what?  How much?  I've already spent that money.  Welcome to the big world of adulthood.

Just know if you take an NIL deal in place of scholarship it is taxable and you should request enough to cover taxes and it is not guaranteed.  I have heard of a few lately that offered monthly NIL deals to athletes rather than scholarships.  I would be worried that if I'm not helping the team I lose my NIL money or they just decide to not pay once I get there unless you sign a contract.  Almost every NIL deal son does we request some type of paperwork or contract.

I read somewhere that you cannot exchange scholarship $$ with NIL$$ if an NLI was signed.

Also if the collective where the money is coming from has not advised on how to run your business you better look elsewhere as that is supposed to be in the agreement when you receive $$$. Not necessarily for the big deals but the small ones.