If a RHP is throwing in the 90’s with great secondary pitches and ends up a high d1 recruit, could he potentially look at low to mid d1’s hoping to get more money? In other words, is there any chance a low d1 might offer 80% plus in a scholarship to get a top prospect in the state? If so, any reason going this route isn’t a good idea other than the ability to say “I committed at X college”?
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According to your kid's aspirations. Some want to play for championships, some top championships, and some the national championships. Some, as is said on here a lot, are just using baseball to get a degree paid for. If the third is the plan, then go for the best scholarship you can get. But normally mid major D1's won't give that much to a pitcher because it will only mean at most 1 win a week. Just know when they give that much to one player, especially in state, they are missing 3 other players that could get something and be happy.
You have to be a special player to even get 50%. You have to remember in today’s world you can use that same 50% to get 3 proven performers out of the transfer portal and/or from the JuCo ranks. Three impact players is better than just one. However, it’s the wild west where NIL is concerned and you never know what school might come up with something significant. NIL may be a more practical way to get more than 50%. But as PF stated, a lot more things than money should factor into the decision.
I know a couple of New England pitchers who were in the 90’s senior year of high school. The didn’t end up at a big time program. They’re at UConn who sometimes hits the fringes of ranked.
There aren’t any big time programs in the Northeast. For a Northeast kid to get recruited to a ranked program he has to be something really special. Pitcher Hunter Owen from South Portland (ME) High is at Vanderbilt. He was at 92 soph year of high school.
Corbin has New England roots. He always seems to have the inside track on the absolute top talent in New England. The year Vanderbilt won it all his #1, #2, closer and cleanup hitter were all from Massachusetts.
NEmom, there are so many things to consider. Yes, it has to make sense financially but when it comes time to choosing a school, also consider whether a fit with regards to academic major, social fit, geographical fit, academic support, class size, school size, city/town size, alumni connectivity, costs outside of tuition, team culture, coaching style, weather, etc.
Remember the 4 vs 40 rule - this is potentially a critical decision that will affect the next 40 years + of his life, not just the next 4 yrs of playing ball. For many young student athletes, their athletic focus and competitive nature will draw their interests to the high profile athletic schools. Parents often have to provide a sense of reason and encouragement to consider the other aspects.
Also keep in mind that comparing the $ or % offer isn't apples to apples. i.e. - 50% at an expensive private school can still leave you with a higher bill than 0% at a state school. What kind of student is he? If he earns financial $ as well, that can vary from school to school. When we have a kid that shows so much promise for athletics paving the way, sometimes we mistakenly ignore the other $ available. He will want the financial commitment from his school for athletics but a 25% offer at school A can prove to be more valuable than 75% at school B.
@RJM posted:I know a couple of New England pitchers who were in the 90’s senior year of high school. The didn’t end up at a big time program. They’re at UConn who sometimes hits the fringes of ranked.
There aren’t any big time programs in the Northeast. For a Northeast kid to get recruited to a ranked program he has to be something really special. Pitcher Hunter Owen from South Portland (ME) High is at Vanderbilt. He was at 92 soph year of high school.
Corbin has New England roots. He always seems to have the inside track on the absolute top talent in New England. The year Vanderbilt won it all his #1, #2, closer and cleanup hitter were all from Massachusetts.
Not sure if you are talking about when your kid was recruited, but there are players from the Northeast that are at big time programs these days, including players that are high draft prospects. And UCONN is very good, even beyond very good for a NE program.
Point of order - when discussing a 25% or 75% offer (or whatever), what is the denominator? Is it the full cost a student/family needs to go to school for the year - whatever the university estimates as full cost of attendance?
ex: It’s tuition, but is it off-campus food? It’s books, but is it travel to/from school?
Or is it different case by case?
I know it is out of the scope of this topic, but many Northern players are recruited by the big time programs. They may be a little more raw in some cases, but the upside can be enormous. The gene pool for baseball is spread equally across the nation. The more developed players come from the warm weather states but great ones exist also in the North. I agree with nycdad, UCONN is a big time baseball program. George Springer and Nick Ahmed are two big leaguers they developed and I am sure there are others.
Yes, this happens. We’ve seen it with my 2024. He went very broad with his recruiting and saw it through with just about every school that showed interest. The lower the baseball pedigree of the school, generally the higher the offer - up to 80% and beyond.
@nycdad posted:Not sure if you are talking about when your kid was recruited, but there are players from the Northeast that are at big time programs these days, including players that are high draft prospects. And UCONN is very good, even beyond very good for a NE program.
Ranked (top programs) and P5 aren't the same thing. Northwestern is a P5. BC is a P5.
UConn is the best program in the northeast. But they're not perenially ranked. They're sometimes ranked. The original poster asked about "top" programs.
I have two in college ball. The oldest at a P5, the youngest at a mid major in a decent conference.
The youngest had a few 25-30% P5 offers. They liked him, they didn't love him. They weren't super responsive all the time, they weren't in any rush to get him on campus to show him around, they were making the bare minimum investment. A lot of "we'll see" or "we'll be in touch"
He had a lot of offers from competitive mid majors and lower end D1s in the 80-100% range. This told me this was the level that was more appropriate for him.
You are what the market tells you you are. If you were truly a P5 players, you'd have P5s fighting over you. If you're a solid mid major player you'll have mid majors trying to outbid each other and maybe a few higher level schools throw their hat in the ring. If you're a fringe D1 player with walk on D1 opportunities and a bunch of D2s/D3s that love you, you'll be the first one cut at the D1.
I saw firsthand how difficult it was for the oldest at the P5 and he was a much more polished HS player with better stuff. The youngest was bigger but weaker, threw harder but had less control and inconsistent secondary pitches. I think he'll be the better player by the time it's said and done but if he went to a P5 that offered the bare minimum odds are he would've been towards the end of the roster, getting buried for meaningful instruction and most likely cut if he didn't start producing right away.
He is thriving with all the attention he is getting at his current school. Will most likely be a top 5 pitcher as a freshman. Doubt he'll crack the rotation but coming out of the pen on a Friday/Saturday is great compared to where he could have been if his ego made the decision instead of his brain. When they have a lot invested in you, they really invest.
@Northeastmom posted:If a RHP is throwing in the 90’s with great secondary pitches and ends up a high d1 recruit, could he potentially look at low to mid d1’s hoping to get more money? In other words, is there any chance a low d1 might offer 80% plus in a scholarship to get a top prospect in the state? If so, any reason going this route isn’t a good idea other than the ability to say “I committed at X college”?
My son received 90% at a DI P5 school. Wasn't a fit. Now he is at a school that couldn't offer him much the first go round but it is so much the better fit. We made money the top priority and it was a huge mistake.
@PABaseball posted:I have two in college ball. The oldest at a P5, the youngest at a mid major in a decent conference.
The youngest had a few 25-30% P5 offers. They liked him, they didn't love him. They weren't super responsive all the time, they weren't in any rush to get him on campus to show him around, they were making the bare minimum investment. A lot of "we'll see" or "we'll be in touch"
He had a lot of offers from competitive mid majors and lower end D1s in the 80-100% range. This told me this was the level that was more appropriate for him.
You are what the market tells you you are. If you were truly a P5 players, you'd have P5s fighting over you. If you're a solid mid major player you'll have mid majors trying to outbid each other and maybe a few higher level schools throw their hat in the ring. If you're a fringe D1 player with walk on D1 opportunities and a bunch of D2s/D3s that love you, you'll be the first one cut at the D1.
I saw firsthand how difficult it was for the oldest at the P5 and he was a much more polished HS player with better stuff. The youngest was bigger but weaker, threw harder but had less control and inconsistent secondary pitches. I think he'll be the better player by the time it's said and done but if he went to a P5 that offered the bare minimum odds are he would've been towards the end of the roster, getting buried for meaningful instruction and most likely cut if he didn't start producing right away.
He is thriving with all the attention he is getting at his current school. Will most likely be a top 5 pitcher as a freshman. Doubt he'll crack the rotation but coming out of the pen on a Friday/Saturday is great compared to where he could have been if his ego made the decision instead of his brain. When they have a lot invested in you, they really invest.
Thank you. This is the conversation we are currently having. What he wants and what I think is best may not align. Really trying hard to help a young kid see the big picture- playing time, confidence, and finances. His grades are good in all honors and AP classes. Not valedictorian good but top 20% of his class with challenging courses. He does understand academics come first and is prioritizing that for recruiting. I just worry this spring/ summer are going to hit like a mac truck and want to be sure we know what to expect. I’m sure my kid would like to turn his talent into professional ball. Wouldn’t all kids? I would like him to leverage his talent into a loan free college education. We’ll pitch in financially, but between academics and athletics we want to see him leave school with a 0 debt degree. To me, that is the dream.
@Northeastmom posted:If a RHP is throwing in the 90’s with great secondary pitches and ends up a high d1 recruit, could he potentially look at low to mid d1’s hoping to get more money? In other words, is there any chance a low d1 might offer 80% plus in a scholarship to get a top prospect in the state? If so, any reason going this route isn’t a good idea other than the ability to say “I committed at X college”?
To answer your questions in order:
Yes
Yes
No, but…a high D1 recruit that throws in the 90s with great secondary pitches can also get 80%+ scholarship (athletic, room/board/books/etc as denominator) from high d1 program too.
I agree with you sentiment, don’t go to a high d1 for the “commitment post”, but also don’t assume that these programs can’t show up to the table with a very aggressive offer for what they see as the right talent.
Thanks to all, this has been helpful and gives me more to consider. I appreciate the thoughtful replies!
Go to a private school, combine athletic money + academic money to equal 100%. This is also possible at some public schools
I do not understand this high D1. High D1 is P5. Of the top 25 which is the high D1, only 2 schools, East Carolina and Southern Miss, are not P5 schools. I have a hard time believing a top 25 team is giving a player in low 90s a 80% scholarship. They may have in the past but not in today's world.
I took "high D1" to mean top quartile (so of ~300 D1 programs, top 75) or more simply, P5.
Sure, an 80% offer is not going to materialize from a P5 school for a RHP flashing a low 90s fastball the summer before senior year.
However, an 80% offer can definitely materialize from a P5 school for an underclassman RHP "throwing in the 90’s with great secondary pitches."
Likelihood of an offer goes down as the definition of "high D1" becomes narrower. Also goes down as skill attributes decline and age increases.
@PitchingFan posted:I do not understand this high D1. High D1 is P5. Of the top 25 which is the high D1, only 2 schools, East Carolina and Southern Miss, are not P5 schools. I have a hard time believing a top 25 team is giving a player in low 90s a 80% scholarship. They may have in the past but not in today's world.
I agree. I think that a lot of people define high D1 differently than you and I do. IMO the difference between top 30 D1 programs and everyone else is significant in terms of top to bottom talent in the program. With a little variation it’s the same group of schools almost every year. Not sure others see that way.
I think most of the guys that even get 75% offers in top D1/P5 are locks for the draft and don't make it to campus anyway.
My definition of High D1 are programs that are typically ranked in the top twenty-five. The next level is sometimes ranked.
What can be misleading in rankings are the upset team that makes it to a Super Series or CWS. They got hot at the end and made it through. They get ranked in the top eight or sixteen. But, in reality no way they belong ranked there.
One year BC (13-15 in conference) came within a game of not making the ACC tournament. They made it to the ACC championship. They won their region as a four seed. By the time the season was over they were playing in game three of a Super Series. They had two pitchers now in the majors who got hot and dominating at the right time.
I don't think anyone, including the high first round guys, get 75% at top 25 schools. You might get it if you add in an NIL deal in today's world but not scholarship if you are talking 75% of total cost. I heard a guy say his kid got a 75% scholarship this fall at a high P5. I said so they gave your kid 75% of total cost at that school. He said not total cost. 75% of tuition. I said so he got a 10-20% scholarship.
I'm not sure we are talking the same language at times. Top D1 schools to me is top 10% which is top 30 teams in the nation. If you make less than a 90 on a test you did not finish in the top of your class. Unless your language is TOP half. If you are talking scholarship %, then it is a % of the total costs of going to school not just tuition. The % is relative to how much the one full of the 11.7 is valued at.
What I'm seeing: A "100%" offer consists of baseball + academic money covering the checks we would otherwise write directly to the school. Which means out of pocket depends on lifestyle, cost of living, number of supplemental burritos consumed, and NIL receipts.
(I'm not saying that's my definition of 100%, but that's how coaches have presented it and I suspect that when short handing to their friends and family it's the number many parents would use. It's great, no complaints).
My kids both received 75%. But I was always very clear to people I was talking with about college baseball/softball with it was 25% athletic and 50% academic. 25% is very normal. My impression is players getting 50% or more are typically extremely talented and likely to be drafted in the top ten rounds. Sometimes, kids are receiving financial aid money and parents don’t want to talk about it. What people earn isn’t anyone else’s business.
My kids told me their teammates never talked about how college was being handled. It was rarely a conversation in the stands. It was happy news for the parents when a kid got more than last year.
I agree RJM. I’ve never discussed money in travel, showcase or college. I never wanted to tell how little or how much it cost or didn’t cost. I don’t ask now about scholarships or NIL money
my mom took son for a weekend tournament. A mom was complaining about cost and lack of playing time. My mom asked me do you pay what she pays. I said no but I appreciated what she paid. My wife never asked what any of it cost.
life lessons
Don’t ask a woman’s age or talk baseball money.
@Long415 posted:Point of order - when discussing a 25% or 75% offer (or whatever), what is the denominator? Is it the full cost a student/family needs to go to school for the year - whatever the university estimates as full cost of attendance?
ex: It’s tuition, but is it off-campus food? It’s books, but is it travel to/from school?
Or is it different case by case?
I would say it is what the school says is full cost of attendance. When my son opened his recruiting this past summer and we talked offers with schools, we always would first go through all the costs of attendance. Tuition, housing, books, meal plans, and any other fees that were required of the student. Then we would bounce the athletic money number against that cost of attendance to come up with the percentage. We never included discretionary spending costs or the cost of transportation (airline tickets) to get back and forth to school.
I'll add this, even though it wasn't part of your question. LHP, no doubt. RHP as you describe, good chance that you can throw the draft into the equation.
Every school we talked to it was percentage of tuition, room and board and books. It's been a couple years but we knew 2 guys that had 75% offers at top 25 schools. The pitcher had 2 SEC schools offering 75%. Both kids went in the draft the first day. I'm pretty sure they offered knowing it is unlikely they will get the kid, but taking a shot. Would it happen today, unlikely because they would rather use NIL money to supplement, that isn't guaranteed for 4 years.
I always considered high level top 50ish. There are quite a few good teams who will not crack the top 25-30 at the end of the season who given the right circumstances could probably have a nice tournament.
50-100 are competitive teams. After 100 there is a drop-off and after 200 I don't think many teams would compete with IMG.
It's hard to say. There are a lot of programs, who are not perennial top 25 mainstays, who have up and down cycles.
The higher the act/sat score the more academic money so you could get to 100% through academic+athletic
Regarding the %, there is an official definition of what the maximum allowable "full scholarship" is. The NCAA's own rules are here: https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/bylawView?id=8807.
A "full scholarship" means tuition, room and board, fees, and books (Cost of Attendance = COA). So 11.7 means 11.7 "full scholarship" dollars, which can be divided up any way the school wants, as long as every athlete on athletic aid receives at least 25% of a "full scholarship."
So if tuition is $10,000 and room-and-board is $10,000, total COA is $20,000. If they give you a $5,000 athletic scholarship, they could call it 25% of total COA, or they could call it 50% of tuition, and both would be correct. And it would be up to you to figure it out.
I knew a family once who got confused, and only realized when they got the bill at the start of the year that the 100% scholarship was only for tuition, not COA, and they couldn't afford the rest of the costs. It was very upsetting.
@PitchingFan posted:I don't think anyone, including the high first round guys, get 75% at top 25 schools. You might get it if you add in an NIL deal in today's world but not scholarship if you are talking 75% of total cost. I heard a guy say his kid got a 75% scholarship this fall at a high P5. I said so they gave your kid 75% of total cost at that school. He said not total cost. 75% of tuition. I said so he got a 10-20% scholarship.
I'm not sure we are talking the same language at times. Top D1 schools to me is top 10% which is top 30 teams in the nation. If you make less than a 90 on a test you did not finish in the top of your class. Unless your language is TOP half. If you are talking scholarship %, then it is a % of the total costs of going to school not just tuition. The % is relative to how much the one full of the 11.7 is valued at.
For lack of understanding on my part, I looked at tier 1, 2, 3 and broke d1 up into thirds. In that case, top 75 or so would be tier 1. I wondered if a kid getting interest from a school ranked #55 might be pursued more heavily from a school ranked #200.
You are right. As Adbono said, just difference of opinion. I say a 66 in a class would not put you in the top of the class. I think 10% is top but just my opinion. So we are both right. Because everyone’s opinion is theirs.
@Northeastmom posted:For lack of understanding on my part, I looked at tier 1, 2, 3 and broke d1 up into thirds. In that case, top 75 or so would be tier 1. I wondered if a kid getting interest from a school ranked #55 might be pursued more heavily from a school ranked #200.
There’s a good chance the #200 D1 isn’t fully funded. This means they don’t have a full allotment of 11.7 scholarships. Even if they do they’re trying to bring in as much talent as they can dividing up the rides as many ways as possible.
Recruiting is a crapshoot. It’s common 50% of recruits don’t work out. It’s important to bring in as much talent as possible rather than focus on a handful of players.
Son #1 was at a mid-level D1. He got 0 (recruited walk on) /50/0/100 of SCHOOL COSTS (tuition, books and fees). He gave up 50% in junior year to get in a JC CF that helped team (this was the 1 year they had a chance to make NCAA tournament, but fell a game short, so it was a good investment), but we got the 100 IN WRITING.
That being said, he lived in a rental house w/ the 4 year starting SS who was on 50% each year, BUT HIS 50% was ALL COSTS..........so he was getting checks each month to cover rent / groceries. Their other roommate was this teams #1 pitching recruit as a Soph in HS. He started out at 40 of ALL COSTS, but by his senior year he was at 25% of tuition but he was very happy to be getting an education and being part of the team (one of the best teammates I've ever seen) He pitched a total of 14 innings in 4 years while oldest son is in top 10 in appearances at school.
It's not where you start, it's where you end and sometimes what you get is not what it seems...........and what one person gets maybe a lot to someone, and an allowance to the other. It all depends on the situation.
That being said. EVERYONE HAVE A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND SAFE HOLIDAY SEASON
@Northeastmom posted:I wondered if a kid getting interest from a school ranked #55 might be pursued more heavily from a school ranked #200.
My son was lucky to run into a scout that is now director of scouting for an MLB team. He told him, it doesn't matter where you go, if you're good we'll find you. He worked out in the offseason with him, and the guy helped him pick schools, so it wasn't an off the cuff comment.
@SomeBaseballDad posted:My son was lucky to run into a scout that is now director of scouting for an MLB team. He told him, it doesn't matter where you go, if you're good we'll find you. He worked out in the offseason with him, and the guy helped him pick schools, so it wasn't an off the cuff comment.
Not entirely related to this thread, but I hear this comment a lot, and it is 100% always coming from a scout. It may be true, but it sounds a bit self-serving and self-congratulatory, as if to say "we are so good at our jobs that we never miss". I'm just not sure the data back this up, and there wouldn't be such a battle to play D1 and P5 baseball if you would truly be found no matter where you played.
I think the difference is that when you play top level P5 it is easier to be seen. They know if you can compete at that level you can compete in MiLB at least. If you flourish at SEC or other top P5, you can play in MLB. I still say for you to be found you have to be a stud that everyone missed or you grew or got a lot better.
Chase Dollander started at Georgia Southern and then transferred to Tennessee. He would have been found at GSU but he will be top 1-5 draft picks next year because he got better at UT and flourished in SEC play.
@Smitty28 posted:Not entirely related to this thread, but I hear this comment a lot, and it is 100% always coming from a scout. It may be true, but it sounds a bit self-serving and self-congratulatory, as if to say "we are so good at our jobs that we never miss". I'm just not sure the data back this up, and there wouldn't be such a battle to play D1 and P5 baseball if you would truly be found no matter where you played.
I think it is when you get to the "bird dog" level of scout they are everywhere. Literally everyone and their brothers are birddog scouts. Doesn't mean that mistakes cannot be made.
@Smitty28 posted:Not entirely related to this thread, but I hear this comment a lot, and it is 100% always coming from a scout. It may be true, but it sounds a bit self-serving and self-congratulatory, as if to say "we are so good at our jobs that we never miss". I'm just not sure the data back this up, and there wouldn't be such a battle to play D1 and P5 baseball if you would truly be found no matter where you played.
I hear this often too. I'd like to see supporting data because I do think there are individuals who are missed.
@SomeBaseballDad posted:I think it is when you get to the "bird dog" level of scout they are everywhere. Literally everyone and their brothers are birddog scouts. Doesn't mean that mistakes cannot be made.
I take issue with your statement that “everyone and their brothers are birddog scouts.” That is absolutely not true. Some guys may like to say they are but there are fewer now than ever before. I occasionally get asked by a MLB scout to see a player for them. That doesn’t make me a birddog scout. That makes me a guy that helps out a scout every now and then.
@SomeBaseballDad posted:Doesn't mean that mistakes cannot be made.
you can take this to the bank.
@Northeastmom posted:If a RHP is throwing in the 90’s with great secondary pitches and ends up a high d1 recruit, could he potentially look at low to mid d1’s hoping to get more money? In other words, is there any chance a low d1 might offer 80% plus in a scholarship to get a top prospect in the state? If so, any reason going this route isn’t a good idea other than the ability to say “I committed at X college”?
In D1 baseball there is no such thing as a full ride. 11.7 among 27, 25% minimum, if fully funded is not easy to divide up.
Perhaps, a lower D1 ranked program may give up more to get a better prospect, but why would the player consider such a move?
Coaches usually don't recruit like that. They have to figure out how to best spend the money that they have to win games. That player may be worth one win a week if a starter and as mentioned may get 2,3 transfers for his scholarship.
If you are looking to cut costs on attending college, your son might strongly consider another option, D3 perhaps or a private D1 that awards grants and the player is then considered a walk on.
The 2% or so MLB players that came from rounds 21 to 40 will likely be missed.
However, I think the comment “we will find you” is more directed to those that have typical projectable intangibles and are not playing in a typical place. If you’re touching 95 mph or higher, you can hit a ball 400FT plus, or you field like Ozzy Smith (dating myself there), somebody is going to hear about you and somebody is going to come watch.
In Hillsboro Texas on a weekday in September at Hill College’s semi-dilapidated (at the time) cracker-box field during scout day the kid hangs a few 97’s. Nobody from Arkansas was present, but Vitello was on the phone later that afternoon with the kid, scheduling an unofficial visit for the upcoming weekend. LSU texted the following week, but he already verbally committed to Arkansas. If you do something noteworthy, I do believe you’ll be found.
I don’t know what the scholarship percentage was, my son made all the arrangements. I paid a bit under $5K for the year at Arkansas, so I guess he did a pretty good job negotiating.
@TPM posted:In D1 baseball there is no such thing as a full ride. 11.7 among 27, 25% minimum, if fully funded is not easy to divide up.
Perhaps, a lower D1 ranked program may give up more to get a better prospect, but why would the player consider such a move?
Coaches usually don't recruit like that. They have to figure out how to best spend the money that they have to win games. That player may be worth one win a week if a starter and as mentioned may get 2,3 transfers for his scholarship.
If you are looking to cut costs on attending college, your son might strongly consider another option, D3 perhaps or a private D1 that awards grants and the player is then considered a walk on.
While the full ride is uncommon and rare, it does exist.
11.7 divided by 27 scholarship players comes out to roughly 43% per player. With all the 25% offers, odds are each team is going to have a few guys in a 75-100% range.
3 players with 25% offers opens up another nearly another 60% points. For every 3 guys at 25% you can put one on a full ride.
Basically for every 25% guy you have an additional 18% to offer to a player who was already allotted 43%.
If my math is wrong please don't crucify me in the replies. Math was never my strong suit
I had done that math myself!
The only point would be that a lower D1, as described by the OP, might well have fewer than 11.7 scholarships. So then the math is all different.
Don't forget that the school may have a 'dollar amount budget' set for baseball scholarships, and it will take a large spreadsheet to figure out 25% - 100% for both instate and out of state COAs.
At the time when son was being recruited, I had heard of two full rides. 1) was mostly/all academic/need based; and 2) was to keep a lhp out of the draft. There was a poster on here years ago with twins, and received an offer for both sons, but one was 100% and the other 0% (this was to help with "counters").
As a parent, I never knew what other players on son's team were getting. It didn't start out this way, but son got a different scholly amount each year. When a player left college for the draft, it free up some money so son got more, with the understanding that the following year it would be less ..... to help with recruiting that summer. It was all in writing and we could refuse the offer.
Son got less sophomore year, but then got more the next two years. But as was said it was in writing, and we knew two players that had done the same thing the year before. It actually ended up being more than originally promised.
People are only discussing athletic and academic money. Some kids get financial need money. Chances are there are kids getting 100%. But it’s not all from one source.,
Lottery states give money for GPA, in FL its Bright Futures and tuition is relatively liveable. And yes, there is financial aid as well.
Florida's HC did an interview on how the Bright Futures program allowed him to have money available for an out of state player. It's a matter of how you want to spend your dollars. Most HC can make it work. And then there is the point, that a lower D1 program would not be fully funded.
Go where you will get the best education regardless of program. Remember there is always the transfer option.
..........and being a finance guy, if you can get it in writing to get the total same %, deferring to later years is always a good deal, as the price of college has not went down last I checked.
FWIW some coaches will offer almost a full ride to draft prospects and super 2 prospects (eligible 21 year old player end of sophmore year), or 3 years then you pay the 4th year if not drafted. If they really want you they will try to get it done.
@JucoDad posted:I don’t know what the scholarship percentage was, my son made all the arrangements. I paid a bit under $5K for the year at Arkansas, so I guess he did a pretty good job negotiating.
@TPM posted:FWIW some coaches will offer almost a full ride to draft prospects and super 2 prospects (eligible 21 year old player end of sophmore year), or 3 years then you pay the 4th year if not drafted. If they really want you they will try to get it done.
I didn't really think about it, but he was drafted in 2016, and turned down more than the cost of 4 years at Arkansas for that single junior year season - so they likely took care of him. It all was a blessing, he moved up 15 rounds in 2017 and had year as a Razorback that was worth more than money to him.
@JucoDad posted:I didn't really think about it, but he was drafted in 2016, and turned down more than the cost of 4 years at Arkansas for that single junior year season - so they likely took care of him. It all was a blessing, he moved up 15 rounds in 2017 and had year as a Razorback that was worth more than money to him.
My son was offered an out of state 90% scholarship per year for 3 years, if not drafted then he had to pay the 4th but he was by the Cardinals. I thought that was something they did before they made scholarship changes but some programs still do it. I am pretty certain that coaches, more than they used to, pick up players that they only need for a year and cover their costs.
@keewart posted:Don't forget that the school may have a 'dollar amount budget' set for baseball scholarships, and it will take a large spreadsheet to figure out 25% - 100% for both instate and out of state COAs.
At the time when son was being recruited, I had heard of two full rides. 1) was mostly/all academic/need based; and 2) was to keep a lhp out of the draft. There was a poster on here years ago with twins, and received an offer for both sons, but one was 100% and the other 0% (this was to help with "counters").
As a parent, I never knew what other players on son's team were getting. It didn't start out this way, but son got a different scholly amount each year. When a player left college for the draft, it free up some money so son got more, with the understanding that the following year it would be less ..... to help with recruiting that summer. It was all in writing and we could refuse the offer.
I think that you are more correct that most in this thread. It's easy to think in terms of percentages when you are dealing with a private school and all tuitions are the same. The problem is that with state schools often not all tuition cost are the same. There are going to be some players that are in state and some are out of state. My 2024 has one D1 offer right now. When the coaches were discussing the money with us, they gave us a break down of the cost of tuition for an out of state student, the room and board, and all typical additional expenses. They then gave us a dollar amount for how much his athletic scholarship would cover (ie.. we are offering you $X to cover your expenses). This did not include any academic merit scholarship which they do allow to be stacked. They never spoke in terms of percentages, but rather dollar amounts. So, I believe that the 11.7 is not based upon a percentage but rather a set dollar amount of money that is set aside for baseball. I don't think that the coaches at this institution are balancing percentages but rather a set amount of budgeted money.
@Ster posted:I think that you are more correct that most in this thread. It's easy to think in terms of percentages when you are dealing with a private school and all tuitions are the same. The problem is that with state schools often not all tuition cost are the same. There are going to be some players that are in state and some are out of state. My 2024 has one D1 offer right now. When the coaches were discussing the money with us, they gave us a break down of the cost of tuition for an out of state student, the room and board, and all typical additional expenses. They then gave us a dollar amount for how much his athletic scholarship would cover (ie.. we are offering you $X to cover your expenses). This did not include any academic merit scholarship which they do allow to be stacked. They never spoke in terms of percentages, but rather dollar amounts. So, I believe that the 11.7 is not based upon a percentage but rather a set dollar amount of money that is set aside for baseball. I don't think that the coaches at this institution are balancing percentages but rather a set amount of budgeted money.
I think that is a good observation because dollar amounts are easier to understand than percentages.
My understanding is that coaches have a program that does the work for them in working the numbers they have to spend.
EDIT Dont forget all coaches have different budgets, some don't even have enough to fully fund.
Both of my sons' scholarships were an amount plus books. They were never a percentage.
From an educational standpoint, I would love for someone - who is very knowledgeable about college baseball back office specifics - to outline some of the most common D1 scholarship "budgets" the various schools are provided, and thus need to operate within. I assume some have largely "unlimited" budgets are are constrained only the NCAA regulations. Conversely, I assume some have very small dollar budgets and therefore may work to maximize the number of minimum scholarship offers (getting back to the 25% minimum).
I'll start with an example (although only 99% confident I am correct) - Mississippi State - I suspect this school has no real scholarship budget. I believe this school is limited only by the 11.7 total scholarships. If they felt that every scholarship needed to go to an out-of-state player (in order to field the most competitive team), then they would have the necessary "budget". The actual budget differential between in-state and out-of-state would largely be foregone tuition.
Towards the other end of the spectrum for D1 programs, specifically private colleges, the number of scholarships and the dollar amount are identical.
I think a coach laying out scholarship dollars (as opposed to percentages) is done to simplify the process for the parent. If some coach threw out a percentage to me (wishful thinking at this point...), I would immediately convert to dollars anyhow and determine what was left over.
Please note that I have made assumptions, so hoping someone in the know can either confirm or correct as appropriate. Also curious as to whether a school might have budget limits/restrictions as they relate to tuition versus other COA categories.
My son is at a private but we were told they do percentages because tuition costs can change over 4 years and they have…significantly.
His NLI said xyz percentage of tuition, room and board, books, and other expenses . Never understood what “other expenses” were.
Does anyone know why some school allow stacking of academic and athletic vs. others don't? The academic scholarship for the schools that offered (that doesn't allow stacking) is based on an objective criteria that is available for all the students of the school (i.e. if the student has a certain HS GPA and SAT/ACT score, they automatically get a certain amount of academic scholarship). Is this just the school using it as an excuse to save money? Or are they telling us they do not stack but they say something different to other more highly desired recruits?
@atlnon some of the schools who do not allow stacking are bound by state laws prohibiting stacking. NC state schools used to be like that although I believe that changed recently. @2017 Lefty Dad I am not sure anyone except someone in the innermost circles would be able to answer that definitively. Our son was a Mississippi State out of state commit who got a generous percentage stacked with academic but their roster had a lot of Mississippi natives. The fan base talked a lot about the advantage of some of the bigger in-state scholarship options like Hope in GA. It’s very difficult for an out of state offer to match an in state for public universities.
You know that all universities, colleges have an annual budget which comes from revenue. That revenue helps determine what each individual coach would receive for their budget.
I don't understand why you might think MSU baseball has no budget.
Obviously some big football programs bring in more $$ than others due to success. This and other revenue helps each of the other teams.
Then you have teams in lottery states that provide academic assistance if the academic GPA requirements were met in HS.
Then the player can be awarded financial assistance if necessary.
My point is that it's pretty tough to determine what a baseball coach or any other coach has to spend or how he spends it. In D1 sports NCAA only requires what is allowed not in how much money the coach gets to spend. In one program 25% minimum might cover a lot of the cost, in another, perhaps not so much.
In lottery states the majority of rosters for baseball and other head count sports will be from that state. This gives the coach the ability to get a few out of state players that he/she feels will help the team.
Interesting data on baseball revenue. I find it hard to believe that TCU is number 1? I know the Arkansas' number is close and there spend is typically around a $1M less (5.5M - DVH gets $1.3M). https://www.collegeraptor.com/...nue/Sports/Baseball/
@JucoDad posted:Interesting data on baseball revenue. I find it hard to believe that TCU is number 1? I know the Arkansas' number is close and there spend is typically around a $1M less (5.5M - DVH gets $1.3M). https://www.collegeraptor.com/...nue/Sports/Baseball/
Yeah, I see issues with that list too. My guess is that the method of accounting has a lot to do with that list looking like it does. Especially how facility costs are amortized. There is no way that Austin Peay generates more revenue than Oklahoma State - just as an example
That data is from 2019-20, 2020-21. I had just read covid affected revenue.
Here's a bit of an Arkansas homer article, but I believe the numbers are accurate and are likely similar to most large successful programs - it's interesting to see the costs: https://www.armoneyandpolitics...-an-economic-driver/
I know that some here are not Arkansas fans, but from this parents single year perspective it was terrific. I thought fans were knowledgeable and polite (not counting left field), the facilities and technology were leading edge, home and visitor parents sit field level at the dugouts (nobody else in the SEC gives the parents those seats).
@JucoDad posted:Here's a bit of an Arkansas homer article, but I believe the numbers are accurate and are likely similar to most large successful programs - it's interesting to see the costs: https://www.armoneyandpolitics...-an-economic-driver/
I know that some here are not Arkansas fans, but from this parents single year perspective it was terrific. I thought fans were knowledgeable and polite (not counting left field), the facilities and technology were leading edge, home and visitor parents sit field level at the dugouts (nobody else in the SEC gives the parents those seats).
Interesting "scholarship" expense line item of $651k. Not sure how it gets that high as that would equate to $55k per full scholarship. Thoughts on that accounting? I think those were 2019 figures. Didn't think even 11.7 out-of-state scholarships would reach half that amount.
@JucoDad posted:Here's a bit of an Arkansas homer article, but I believe the numbers are accurate and are likely similar to most large successful programs - it's interesting to see the costs: https://www.armoneyandpolitics...-an-economic-driver/
I know that some here are not Arkansas fans, but from this parents single year perspective it was terrific. I thought fans were knowledgeable and polite (not counting left field), the facilities and technology were leading edge, home and visitor parents sit field level at the dugouts (nobody else in the SEC gives the parents those seats).
The fans behind left field have been an issue for more than 40 years
@JucoDad posted:Here's a bit of an Arkansas homer article, but I believe the numbers are accurate and are likely similar to most large successful programs - it's interesting to see the costs: https://www.armoneyandpolitics...-an-economic-driver/
I know that some here are not Arkansas fans, but from this parents single year perspective it was terrific. I thought fans were knowledgeable and polite (not counting left field), the facilities and technology were leading edge, home and visitor parents sit field level at the dugouts (nobody else in the SEC gives the parents those seats).
Good. Most treat visitors parents horribly. UT puts them behind visitors dugout so best seats other than MVP seats right behind home plate. DVH was good when son was being recruited. Just didn’t think he could play in SEC. But I appreciated honesty. Glad it worked out like it did.
@adbono posted:I take issue with your statement that “everyone and their brothers are birddog scouts.” That is absolutely not true. Some guys may like to say they are but there are fewer now than ever before. I occasionally get asked by a MLB scout to see a player for them. That doesn’t make me a birddog scout. That makes me a guy that helps out a scout every now and then.
OK, so you got me there. I'll admit I didn't check the credentials of everyone who claimed to be, or everyone that I was told was a BDS.
@SomeBaseballDad posted:OK, so you got me there. I'll admit I didn't check the credentials of everyone who claimed to be, or everyone that I was told was a BDS.
No problem. I was really just trying to call attention to how often people (especially at HS games) like to embellish their position/experience/credentials. Whenever someone tells me they played at X, coach for Y, scout for Z, etc. I always fact check. It’s amazing how often it doesn’t check out.
2023 RHP son had two full ride (tuition) D1 offers - one Ohio Valley Conference and one Atlantic 10... both schools with long-tenured coaches. Had full ride Juco offers also... all came after schools watching him past summer. LakePoint, Grand Park, East Cobb, Creekside in KC.
As far as P5 schools he had one in particular who's pitching coach was previously at an OVC school and saw him last summer... full coaching staff change. The coach wanted him at the P5 but the offer wasn't nearly as good as full tuition... they hit the portal very hard.
One key for our son - he didn't play the post-sophmore summer, and it clearly hurt his visibility with the P5s as most expressed already being done with 2023 recruiting when he showed out last summer.
In the end he took the A-10 offer and we've been very happy so far with the engagement the coaches have shown. His chances of seeing the mound early will be better, and the academics are great. Will something happen and he has a P5 opportunity down the road? Maybe, but I think we'd be very happy if he develops into a core piece for the program he's going to this coming Fall.
@edwarday posted:2023 RHP son had two full ride (tuition) D1 offers - one Ohio Valley Conference and one Atlantic 10... both schools with long-tenured coaches. Had full ride Juco offers also... all came after schools watching him past summer. LakePoint, Grand Park, East Cobb, Creekside in KC.
All the big name tournaments get knocked around here - especially the PG events like WWBA. But almost all the recruiting I've been a part of and heard of pretty much revolved around coaches seeing the player at East Cobb or Lake Point.
A bit off topic and maybe more relevant in the summer but I never understood why there was so much hate for the events that feature all the best teams in the country.
@PABaseball posted:All the big name tournaments get knocked around here - especially the PG events like WWBA. But almost all the recruiting I've been a part of and heard of pretty much revolved around coaches seeing the player at East Cobb or Lake Point.
A bit off topic and maybe more relevant in the summer but I never understood why there was so much hate for the events that feature all the best teams in the country.
I agree with you PABaseball. My experience this past year with my son and observing from afar his team mates etc... is that there are a few national events that have been very pivotal with players getting D1 attention. The events that seemed to have to biggest impact in the recruitment of players in the Southeast are the PG Junior National Showcase in East Cobb, and the PBR Lake Point tournament. It seems that most of the D1 schools in the south commit a lot of their players immediately following those events.
The ones bashing on these tournaments are the ones that their kid did not get offered after these tournaments. For the rest of us, that saw PG and PBR major tournaments as a major force in our sons recruiting we understand they were the major point. I cannot imagine top players not going to these tournaments. But as has been said on here many times for the middle to lower college prospect. These may not be the Place.
@PitchingFan posted:The ones bashing on these tournaments are the ones that their kid did not get offered after these tournaments. For the rest of us, that saw PG and PBR major tournaments as a major force in our sons recruiting we understand they were the major point. I cannot imagine top players not going to these tournaments. But as has been said on here many times for the middle to lower college prospect. These may not be the Place.
The issue, as I see it, is that the overall pool of talent has been watered down to the point that the best pitchers hardly face the best hitters. So coaches rarely get to see the matchups that mean the most. There are too many marginal players at these events. Another problem is that many parents think their son will be discovered at a big national event. While this is possible it’s not likely. Coaches/scouts show up with a list of players to watch and that’s who they focus on. Occasionally another player will do something that turns heads and gets something out of it. But that is also rare. So (I believe) that you hear more negative about the big national events because too many parents/players go into them with expectations that are unrealistic. Then when they play as well as they are capable and nothing happens they are extremely disappointed. The overwhelming majority of players in big national events get nothing out of them in terms of recruiting exposure. And then they relate their experience to anyone willing to listen.
In agreement with the last few posts above.
Attending high profile events (including camps) is expensive and isn't always in the best interest of every player.
First things first, have your player evaluated independently when he is READY. Very few players show top D1or pro ability early.
I think what it all comes down to is understanding how it works and how your particular player will find the right fit. This is particularly important now, with the portal being a big part of coaches finding players. There are lots of coaches who still recruit to develop and use the portal to fill in the holes and others who are using the portal to help create a good product on the field. And more than likely your freshman will either redshirt or fill in the holes his first year, no matter where he ends up.
Getting your athlete noticed requires a plan as well as a realistic approach. What's most important to your player? For mine it was baseball, he was fortunate to have the ability to play and get noticed at the highest level as well as the academics to get accepted. It's probably 5 times harder (just threw that # out there) these days to get noticed if you are not living in a baseball hotbed, so once again, make a PLAN!
Adbono:
When I created the Area Code games in 1987, there were no "showcases". Each year with advice from the Pro Scouts I made minor adjustments to insure the best players played in the games.
One year I increased to 13 teams and after the six days of games in San Diego, a Scouting Director called to comment "Bob, you watered down the talent"!!
Next year, I returned to 8 teams.
During the Area Code years, I coached a "Scout Team" in Northern California. From this League, 40 players in a five year period later played in the MLB. "Strong competition = competitive talented players and attract Coaches who can Coach.
Bob
I will greatly agree with watered down. I remember when you had to win a qualifier to get into the WWBA tournaments. Then it meant something. Coaches would show up knowing it was some of the best teams in the nation and it was one of the few where all the big teams were at. You also knew as a player that you had to show up every game. It was a struggle just to get out of the pool play into the real tournament.
Now every parent thinks their player should be playing in the big tournaments. I think tournament/showcase ball as a whole has been watered down. Parents are wasting money, big money, on these tournaments that they have no business going to. You do not get better playing great teams. You get better getting ready to play big teams and many players should never be playing the big teams.
I read an article about about a basketball team that played a national powerhouse last week. The coach kept saying we competed our butts off from start to finish. I wanted to rebuttal him but there was no where to rebuttal. It was 0-23 after the first quarter and the powerhouse team did not even play their starters the second half and won by 56. Coach, you did not compete at all, much less from start to finish. You were in over your head before the tip was thrown up. That is how I also feel going to watch the WWBA and other big tournaments in pool play now.
Not sure why anyone would have angst over the current size of these events... I haven't read enough on this site to see how prevalent those opinions are... was just cruising through yesterday and saw this full ride topic.
The reason value remains even with large talent disparities is - going into the event the organizers mostly know where the talent is, and what teams are there to help fund their event.
The teams known to have higher level talent will more often than not get scheduled prime time slots... these teams have a fairly straightforward path to the later rounds. This allows more pitchers to be seen, and more at-bats to be had. More prominent programs get more opportunities to showcase more guys.
There is a lot of concern out there right now regarding what's happening with pitchers during events, especially those that occur during times when pitchers should not be throwing (example before HS season begins).
I think this adds to the overall dislike for certain organizations.
Well, it isn't just organizations such as PBR and PG that are hosting events in December and January prior to high school seasons start. Most of the Colleges are also holding prospect camps during these months as well. My son's email inbox is full of camp and showcase invites that are taking place during the "Off season" in which pitchers aren't ready to throw at Maximum effort.
IMO, hosting an instructional camp for one day is a bit different than sponsoring a weekend tournament.
The blame goes out to everyone including parents.
@edwarday posted:Not sure why anyone would have angst over the current size of these events... I haven't read enough on this site to see how prevalent those opinions are... was just cruising through yesterday and saw this full ride topic.
The reason value remains even with large talent disparities is - going into the event the organizers mostly know where the talent is, and what teams are there to help fund their event.
The teams known to have higher level talent will more often than not get scheduled prime time slots... these teams have a fairly straightforward path to the later rounds. This allows more pitchers to be seen, and more at-bats to be had. More prominent programs get more opportunities to showcase more guys.
The angst over the current size of these events is that it results in a lot of people bashing these events bec they didn't get the results they were looking for (getting noticed and offers). The marketing of these events lead to unrealistic expectations to the "teams that are just there to fund the events". The thought being thrown around is to skip the 2 or 3 pool play games that are of no value (legit teams being pitted against teams that are just there to fund the events). Go straight to the legit primetime games.
I would add Jupiter and Ft Myers to the list of PG events that are legit. I believe for Jupiter, a team has to still earn their berth, right? My son caught the interest of the mid major school he ended up committing to in Jupiter facing and catching really good 90+ mph pitching.
The angst is because if you are not on one of those top teams, you get to the big tournaments and realize how useless it is for recruiting, and that you are playing at high schools all over the area, and then you wonder why you are spending all that money.
But really people should be angry with their travel teams for pushing them to those tournaments, rather than the tournaments for grabbing for the money. If there were more honesty in recruiting, those tournaments would not be nearly as large. But there is so much ignorance about recruiting that when you are told "you want to be on this team because it goes to Georgia", if you don't know better (we did not) you just do it.
On the other hand, it is fun to hang with the top teams and sometimes beat them, or to have a personal good game against a top competitor, and I do think the players learn a lot through competing against tougher competition than they would find at home.
This should really be its own thread about travel teams and recruiting.
@Ster posted:Well, it isn't just organizations such as PBR and PG that are hosting events in December and January prior to high school seasons start. Most of the Colleges are also holding prospect camps during these months as well. My son's email inbox is full of camp and showcase invites that are taking place during the "Off season" in which pitchers aren't ready to throw at Maximum effort.
I think this is different than a tournament in Dec/Jan. When my 2020 was heading into his junior (recruiting) year, we knew several schools he'd had contact with had camps end of Jan or beginning of Feb. Knowing this we made sure his off season was structured around being able to throw at these, which were essentially 20-35 pitch bullpens. We also had PBR events in mid Feb, which was another 20-35 pitch bullpen. This timing is based on the Northeast, I know players in other locations may be further along by this time of year.
@anotherparent posted:The angst is because if you are not on one of those top teams, you get to the big tournaments and realize how useless it is for recruiting, and that you are playing at high schools all over the area, and then you wonder why you are spending all that money.
But really people should be angry with their travel teams for pushing them to those tournaments, rather than the tournaments for grabbing for the money. If there were more honesty in recruiting, those tournaments would not be nearly as large. But there is so much ignorance about recruiting that when you are told "you want to be on this team because it goes to Georgia", if you don't know better (we did not) you just do it.
On the other hand, it is fun to hang with the top teams and sometimes beat them, or to have a personal good game against a top competitor, and I do think the players learn a lot through competing against tougher competition than they would find at home.
This should really be its own thread about travel teams and recruiting.
Should be time and date appropriate. A summer tourney in GA is not the same as an instructional camp on a GA college campus in Jan, Feb.
This is why so many really good players suffer injury before college.
Big part of it is parents thinking their son may miss out on being seen.
@atlnon posted:The angst over the current size of these events is that it results in a lot of people bashing these events bec they didn't get the results they were looking for (getting noticed and offers). The marketing of these events lead to unrealistic expectations to the "teams that are just there to fund the events". The thought being thrown around is to skip the 2 or 3 pool play games that are of no value (legit teams being pitted against teams that are just there to fund the events). Go straight to the legit primetime games.
I would add Jupiter and Ft Myers to the list of PG events that are legit. I believe for Jupiter, a team has to still earn their berth, right? My son caught the interest of the mid major school he ended up committing to in Jupiter facing and catching really good 90+ mph pitching.
There is a lot of truth in this post. My son has/had one D1 offer, and it came as a result of his performance at Jupiter Florida. Had he not attended that event then I am 100% certain he would have never been on the radar of the college that he committed to. So, it's hard for me to agree with those that believe that the big national tournaments have no value. But, I do agree that they don't have value for everyone. Perfect game has a Showcase or tournament just about every other weekend if not every weekend. The majority of those events have no real benefit to player recruitment. Coaches don't go and scout those events routinely. They are simply tournaments that give players and opportunity to play, get reps etc... and there is value in that, but not value for recruiting purposes in my opinion.
The programs that I would list as being the most important from my observation and experience are Perfect Game Jr. National Showcase, PBR national tournament in Lake Point Georgia, WWBA Perfect Game National Championship, WWBA Perfect Game Jr. National Championship in Ft Myers, and the WWBA National Championship in Jupiter.
I list these events because I simply noticed that a) it seems a ton of college scouts attend these events, and more importantly b) most if not all of the kids I know that committed to D1 programs this past year did so almost immediately following these events.
My son has played on essentially a "funding" (I have no issue with this term) team for the big PBR and PG tourneys in GA. Limited expectation to get out of pool play, and certainly no expectation of having any playoff round success. Go .500 or better in pool play and generally call it a worthwhile trip. Kids have a blast socially, compete pretty well in a couple games, usually get humbled in one, and perhaps humble another team every once in a while. The travel team sets expectations in line with these team based outcomes.
As for individual recruiting, these tournaments were still instrumental for my son. Candidly, my son had something to "showcase" which is most instrumental. The ability to be seen by recruiters as a pitcher while on one of these "funding" teams is certainly easier than a position player. PBR having the bulk of games at Lakepoint is also a benefit over the dispersion of PG. Having your coach align your starting pitching spot with in a good time slot and location (Lakepoint or East Cobb game) is critical. Doing the leg work both in advance of tournament (by player) and at the tournament (travel coach walking around the complex giving coaches the heads up about a potential recruit) is beneficial. If you can give these recruiters two looks in back to back weeks/tournaments, even better. And don't forget, these recruiters are like fishermen. A few gathered in a spot gets the attention of all the others.
So, the big tournaments were legit for my son even though he played for a "funding" team. While my son is a '25, his team is a '24 team so they will actually not be heading back this summer. Focus on more regional tournaments in which the recruiters are more aligned with both a recruiting timeline and playing level with the bulk of the team (which I think is the right decision for a '24 team).
@Ster posted:There is a lot of truth in this post. My son has/had one D1 offer, and it came as a result of his performance at Jupiter Florida. Had he not attended that event then I am 100% certain he would have never been on the radar of the college that he committed to. So, it's hard for me to agree with those that believe that the big national tournaments have no value. But, I do agree that they don't have value for everyone. Perfect game has a Showcase or tournament just about every other weekend if not every weekend. The majority of those events have no real benefit to player recruitment. Coaches don't go and scout those events routinely. They are simply tournaments that give players and opportunity to play, get reps etc... and there is value in that, but not value for recruiting purposes in my opinion.
The programs that I would list as being the most important from my observation and experience are Perfect Game Jr. National Showcase, PBR national tournament in Lake Point Georgia, WWBA Perfect Game National Championship, WWBA Perfect Game Jr. National Championship in Ft Myers, and the WWBA National Championship in Jupiter.
I list these events because I simply noticed that a) it seems a ton of college scouts attend these events, and more importantly b) most if not all of the kids I know that committed to D1 programs this past year did so almost immediately following these events.
I agree. My son had a few D1 offers but the one that really mattered was from the coach that saw him at Jupiter as a junior.
There are some tournaments that are epic and well attended by coaches. But some folks don't realize there are quiet periods when coaches can't attend. I believe that D1 baseball coaches are in a quiet period until February.
It's not just the tournaments but what happens when your player is pitching. Are his pitch counts accurate, has he pitched a day too soon? What are the tournament rules? What happens when a team throws their pitchers and breaks the rules? Who is responsible, the promoters, the coaches, the umpires?
Folks want accountability and that's a positive step in the right direction. Many parents, not necessarily here, have no idea of appropriate pitch counts. And tournament coaches want to win, so some believe pitch counts are overlooked.
Just one of the reasons why some don't care for some events and why this MLK country wide event is getting negative attention.
Sorry to get off topic. I think this is an important topic.
Or maybe it isn't. Parents are sending their players, trusting the coaches, to tournament after tournament trying to get an opportunity for a scholarship.
That's why it's important to make a plan.
All of my son's offers and contacts came from the "big" tournaments. I can totally understand the negative feelings but that's how recruiting goes.
My son was pitching at a fall tourney in PHX in 2021. 5 coaches watched his outing. The minute he hit his pitch limit all the coaches packed up their stuff and left. The father of the next pitcher looked at me and said, "Well, I guess they saw what they came here to see. I wish we'd not have spent the money."
@25Dad posted:My son has played on essentially a "funding" (I have no issue with this term) team for the big PBR and PG tourneys in GA. Limited expectation to get out of pool play, and certainly no expectation of having any playoff round success. Go .500 or better in pool play and generally call it a worthwhile trip. Kids have a blast socially, compete pretty well in a couple games, usually get humbled in one, and perhaps humble another team every once in a while. The travel team sets expectations in line with these team based outcomes.
As for individual recruiting, these tournaments were still instrumental for my son. Candidly, my son had something to "showcase" which is most instrumental. The ability to be seen by recruiters as a pitcher while on one of these "funding" teams is certainly easier than a position player. PBR having the bulk of games at Lakepoint is also a benefit over the dispersion of PG. Having your coach align your starting pitching spot with in a good time slot and location (Lakepoint or East Cobb game) is critical. Doing the leg work both in advance of tournament (by player) and at the tournament (travel coach walking around the complex giving coaches the heads up about a potential recruit) is beneficial. If you can give these recruiters two looks in back to back weeks/tournaments, even better. And don't forget, these recruiters are like fishermen. A few gathered in a spot gets the attention of all the others.
So, the big tournaments were legit for my son even though he played for a "funding" team. While my son is a '25, his team is a '24 team so they will actually not be heading back this summer. Focus on more regional tournaments in which the recruiters are more aligned with both a recruiting timeline and playing level with the bulk of the team (which I think is the right decision for a '24 team).
/\ /\ As far as showcase tournaments go, this guy gets it. The issues being put forth unfortunately just boil down to unrealistic expectations for some.
At the big tournaments the coaches/scouts are there, and the talent they want to see is there. Are there some games at PG and Bullpen events played away from the spotlight? Yes. Last summer I watched a pitcher going to a Mid-Major D1 absolutely demoralize multiple teams away from the main event locations. Why? Because he wanted to go to a smaller, closer school where he was already committed, and he enjoyed being around his friends on the team. The coach had opportunities to show other pitchers at the main locations, including our son.
The inclusion of the 'funding teams' at the big events means the chance and opportunity are there for more players. But ultimately the players and their families still bear the responsibility of being realistic going into the events... there's enough information out there to help people level-set expectations.
Anyhow... full ride tuition scholarships do exist... edited for clarity.
" Perfect Game Jr. National Showcase, PBR national tournament in Lake Point Georgia, WWBA Perfect Game National Championship, WWBA Perfect Game Jr. National Championship in Ft Myers, and the WWBA National Championship in Jupiter. "
I think PBR futures needs to be added to this list. There were more college scouts there than any other event we went to and we were at all of the above except Jr. National Showcase because we only did tournaments and not showcases.
FWIW a full ride scholarship has always been recognized as all expenses being covered, including books, tuition, fees, room, and board. Essentially everything except spending money.
A scholarship that covers tuition only, while very significant, is not a full ride scholarship. No matter what semantics are used. In fact, I have never even heard of anyone trying to define a scholarship that covers tuition only as “full ride” until recently.
When it comes to baseball, at 4 year schools, I am unaware of any player that has been given a 100% (all expenses covered) baseball scholarship for the entire 3-4 yr stay on campus since the 11.7 scholarship limit was put in place. I suppose it’s possible but only to lure a first round talent to campus instead of signing out of HS. PT Wood’s kid might fit that description but not many others do. The full ride situations that I have heard about all involved a combination of athletic money, scholastic money, and grants/awards. Or one year may be covered at 100% but the prior or following years were not.
I think some people like to redefine the situation to suit themselves. So I’m not sure we are all talking about the same thing.
How many players attend tournaments/showcases designed for D1 recruits unknown, throw spaghetti off the wall to see what sticks and it works? I believe the biggest disappointment with these D1 tournaments is the players and families who attend and don’t understand the kid is not a D1 prospect.
A friend complained repeatedly her son’s team never saw a college scout. And they played on out of the way fields. It was because it was a roster of future D3 players. If you don’t live in the area it’s expensive to attend. My son was covered by the team. I spent a lot of money getting there, renting a car and staying in GA and FL for back to back PG tournaments.
Another thing is if you’re there hoping to be discovered how does a player distinguish himself from a thousand other players? The top two hundred players can do it. But, everyone already knows who they are. On any given day #500 prospect doesn’t look much different than #900. There’s a lot of talent at these tournaments.
This is why I so often speak about a player having an advocate whether it’s the travel team coaching staff or academy instructor who knows people in the game. When my son’s team attended events the calls to college coaches had been made by the travel coaches. Based on perceived fit the travel coaches filled in the colleges coaches which players on their team were likely to be seen as potential fits for their program. The players knew what college programs would be at their games watching them.
Throwing spaghetti off the wall to see what sticks isn’t a plan.
Incidentally, at some schools, room and board for a year (on-campus) costs more than in-state tuition.
Been on both sides of it. Made the semis of the WWBA with a national program and went 2-5 and 3-4 with more regional teams.
The biggest difference is pitching. The local team might be able to hang with the better teams in the bracket for a few innings. Our first guy may have been 90 but first in relief was most likely 82-85 coming off SS. The big teams have 93, followed by 90 LHP, followed by 93 again.
Even in the years we left with losing records - the kids were still getting plenty of looks and offers in the weeks following. Seems there is really one team that doesn't belong in every bracket. Could probably do without but even the teams towards the bottom - they're usually competitive with everyone except maybe the bracket winner. But it's hard to be competitive against a team with 25+ D1 commits and you only have 15/16 guys.
It's easy to look down from the top but there is still good baseball beyond the scout teams and the big national programs.
Also - don't know what funding teams are - they almost all pay.
@anotherparent posted:Incidentally, at some schools, room and board for a year (on-campus) costs more than in-state tuition.
Don't forget they are now sneaking in $$ from NLI to help cover expenses.
Ah, but NIL money is entirely unregulated by the NCAA or conferences, right? So whereas a scholarship stated in an NLI, at a P5, would be valid all four years, the NIL group could change things around from year to year.
And, who would be telling them to do that? The coach? The boosters? The companies that supposedly want to hire these athletes? Which really illustrates the total corruption that NIL is producing, in cases where there are collectives that are using it in recruiting and retention.
I don't know the answer to your question. Are P5 scholarships awarded to transfers? I am pretty sure it's used to help those in need of help, if the coach wants the player that badly. Not just throw money at them but they would have to be involved in some type of activity.
Some states have NLI rules in place, others do not.
@anotherparent posted:Ah, but NIL money is entirely unregulated by the NCAA or conferences, right? So whereas a scholarship stated in an NLI, at a P5, would be valid all four years, the NIL group could change things around from year to year.
And, who would be telling them to do that? The coach? The boosters? The companies that supposedly want to hire these athletes? Which really illustrates the total corruption that NIL is producing, in cases where there are collectives that are using it in recruiting and retention.
100% happening. There are also coaches asking current players to trade out scholarships for NIL. It might all be the same money , but the guarantee just went from four years to one. Parents and kids need to know and understand the rules. I assure you that the coaches do.
@baseballhs posted:100% happening. There are also coaches asking current players to trade out scholarships for NIL. It might all be the same money , but the guarantee just went from four years to one. Parents and kids need to know and understand the rules. I assure you that the coaches do.
Excellent post. I hope that people on the HSBBW are listening to you.
@baseballhs posted:100% happening. There are also coaches asking current players to trade out scholarships for NIL. It might all be the same money , but the guarantee just went from four years to one. Parents and kids need to know and understand the rules. I assure you that the coaches do.
I assumed that all Athletic Scholarships were one year guarantees. Am I wrong about that? Does it vary from school to school?
@Ster posted:I assumed that all Athletic Scholarships were one year guarantees. Am I wrong about that? Does it vary from school to school?
P5 are 4 years. They changed it in 2017, I believe. It only applies if you receive scholarship your freshman year.
(I think transfers are now guaranteed scholarship from the time they transfer until they graduate as well.)
All bets are off if you “voluntarily “ give it up a year.
From SI article last May.
What's taxable? I'm assuming NIL $ is federally taxable. What about athletic scholarships?
@Tres Elakes 24 posted:What's taxable? I'm assuming NIL $ is federally taxable. What about athletic scholarships?
All scholarships are tax free so long as the money is spent on qualified educational expenses. I don't see how NIL proceeds are not taxed as income regardless of how the money is spent.
By the way, @baseballhs is correct, you can replace with NIL $$.
I am not sure if that applies to schools in certain states or not. And it does seem that the NCAA isn't paying attention at this moment.
I think a few athletes are getting a rude awakening about now when they start to receive their W2's or 1099's. They are wondering what are these things and what do I do with this. I have to pay what? How much? I've already spent that money. Welcome to the big world of adulthood.
Just know if you take an NIL deal in place of scholarship it is taxable and you should request enough to cover taxes and it is not guaranteed. I have heard of a few lately that offered monthly NIL deals to athletes rather than scholarships. I would be worried that if I'm not helping the team I lose my NIL money or they just decide to not pay once I get there unless you sign a contract. Almost every NIL deal son does we request some type of paperwork or contract.
I read somewhere that you cannot exchange scholarship $$ with NIL$$ if an NLI was signed.
Also if the collective where the money is coming from has not advised on how to run your business you better look elsewhere as that is supposed to be in the agreement when you receive $$$. Not necessarily for the big deals but the small ones.
