The importance of grades in high school.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
BHD,
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Oh boy oh boy, all I can say is Merry Christmas!!!

Thanks CABB, Happy Holidays to you to

This kind of thing often happens this time of year - the interim period from fall ball to the start of the new season, sigh....

Has anybody ever heard about good grades working against you? After a few school visits and calls from coaches last year my son was hit with a comment from a coach last year that because of his commitment to his studies that a coach questioned his dedication to playing ball in college.My son made no bones about the fact that he was going to college to further his education, not just to play baseball.Son has always been an overachiever both in the classroom and on the field(not the most talented or smartest but excellent results).The comment from that coach caused my son to rethink the whole process again to where he has decided to shy away from the D1/D2 thing and just go after the academic side of things and let the chips fall where they may.

Ken,

"Has anybody ever heard about grades working against you"

Yes, but in a different way than you experienced. My son's goals were to leverage baseball as a way to get into a top school/play D1 baseball....to be a student/athlete....in that order. He has done this, and we are very excited about his choice. Along the way, we met several D1 coaches who actively recruited him. When it came time to work on the financial aspect, it was assumed by the coach that he would get more academic money rather than an increased amount of baseball money (a bump up from their initial 25% offer). Well, as you may (or may not) know, you have to apply to the school Earlier Decison or Early Action to be eligible for that academic money because the coach can't guarantee that academic money. In the coaches eyes, he is trying stretch out his baseball scholarship dollars. That is his business, and we get that. However, coaches need to set expectations with players and parents up front in this area.

While he is an excellent student and baseball player, we decided against further pursuing a few schools because of their academic money assumptions.

If you have questions about specifics, you can PM me.

A few of the D-3 schools that my son has applied to have academic calculators that show the range of money that he would recieve with his numbers. All the D-1 schools that he has applied to do not offer athletic money, but I see your point.

I think the folks here hold their kids/players to a higher standard. We all know that that a four year degree is far more likely than an MLB contract. imo, That needs to be the consistent message, but in the real world, there will always be exceptions. Starry eyed parents/players are always willing to go down the path of least resistance. That path does not lead to success.

All you need is a good showing or two - I think the roster limit rule is pressuring coaches into making snap decisions. I've seen kids verbal without exploring other options, without knowing the coach or the staff, without any consideration to academics. The coaches are goin' crazy (only looking at what happens on the field), and the kids and parents are being dazzled!! This has been discussed in the early signing threads too.

The NCAA says all you need is a 2.0 GPA and a 1010 SAT - so a kid really shouldn't be penalized if he or she are at that level academically. I mean, if the NCAA says it is good enough..... So I'm being sarcastic - the standard is abysmally low. Obviously there are plenty of schools that require more, but ... if gives the coach a lot of leeway.

Not the message the HSBBW wants to send, but people need to be prepared for seeing it happen.

I propose that even more important than achieving good grades in high school is developing effective study habits and working to one's potential.

In high school, my son was always one to do just enough to get by. He was fairly disinterested in school and, despite our pleas and admonishments, would never put forth sustained effort to achieve the higher grades he was capable of. He ended up with a 3.0 GPA, 22 ACT, and 980 SAT -- just high enough to get into the school that was recruiting him, but certainly nothing to write home about.

Now, he is a college sophomore who is struggling with his classes -- not because he is dumb, but because he never developed the study skills necessary to achieve a high level of success. The coaching staff will be ramping up tutoring, accountability, etc. this spring and we are hopeful that it will help, but in retrospect we should have come down HARD on him early on in high school when it became obvious he was doing the bare minimum.

Let this be a warning to all the high school parents out there who are allowing their sons to slide academically. Your complacency may come back to haunt you. Lots of "woulda, coulda, shoulda's" currently being uttered at our house.

Keep in mind that the 2.0 and 1010 cited is for being NCAA eligible to play---it does not guaranttee you admission to a any school, especially in todays world

I would also be concerned with any coach who questions a players being too dedicated to his academics---if a player becomes ineligible because of grades the team gets punished in terms of APR and scholarships--the more solid a player is in the classroom the better for the overall team picture

To me the habits should start earlier than HS.
In my one daughter's case, she was constantly belittled by her grade 6 teacher. I had a chat with her and things improved. Fortunately we moved and her next teacher turned her around and she graduated college with an honors degree.
My son had the same teacher and he was also the coach for basketball and volleyball. He had an incredible effect on my 2 kids. I remember getting a call from my son's previous teacher. Well actually it was from a psychologist saying my son had no issues. I asked her what she was talking about. She told me they tested him because he wasn't finishing his tests etc. They suspected he might be slow. It turned out he was fine he just a very detailed type of intelligence. They told him he had to work faster and he did.
My daughters all had to work hard but my son just didn't. You always knew when my daughters were writing exams and my son it was life as usual.
Most players I have observed over the years all had different development rates in academics as well as BB. Some just have it easier than others in both. They are what they are and if they don't understand that marks will get them more academic money and open opportunities by HS you have to hope the light will go on eventually. For those who are not academically inclined all is not lost.

We have always discussed the importance of good grades to my son and daughter. My son is a senior this year recovering from TJ surgery and most D1's wanted to wait to see how he recovers this spring and summer. Top academic D3's stayed interested and he applied early decision and was just admitted to an excellent D3 school with a substantial amount of academic money. Which without we would not be able to send him to this school. This was all about grades though I'm sure the baseball coach was able to put in a good word for him. The bottom line came down to course's taken (mostly honors and 6 AP courses plus 3yrs of one language and 4 of another, ACT scores and his interview.
Something that also amazed me is they wanted to know the courses he is taking as a senior to show he was not slacking off as a senior.

quote:

Originally posted by Infield08:
I propose that even more important than achieving good grades in high school is developing effective study habits and working to one's potential.

In high school, my son was always one to do just enough to get by. He was fairly disinterested in school and, despite our pleas and admonishments, would never put forth sustained effort to achieve the higher grades he was capable of. He ended up with a 3.0 GPA, 22 ACT, and 980 SAT -- just high enough to get into the school that was recruiting him, but certainly nothing to write home about.

Now, he is a college sophomore who is struggling with his classes -- not because he is dumb, but because he never developed the study skills necessary to achieve a high level of success. The coaching staff will be ramping up tutoring, accountability, etc. this spring and we are hopeful that it will help, but in retrospect we should have come down HARD on him early on in high school when it became obvious he was doing the bare minimum.

Let this be a warning to all the high school parents out there who are allowing their sons to slide academically. Your complacency may come back to haunt you. Lots of "woulda, coulda, shoulda's" currently being uttered at our house.

That is a wonderful post with much wisdom.

Before you beat yourself up too much however, I have three kids. Two of them I have no woulda, shoulda, coulda's. The funny thing with those two, I really dont' feel it is appropriate for me to take any credit because they both seem to be naturally motivated in their own right.

With my other one however, all I mostly have is regret in my abilities as a parent. While parents are in fact responsible how their kids turn out, some of this burden/ responsibility must also fall on the kids themselves imho. If that were not the case, then all my experiences ought to be the same when in fact they are quite different.

bb1

You mention languages which is a great point--a lot of HS counselors will sway kids from taking two years of a language saying one year is enough---most colleges require two years---DO NOT GET TRAPPED

The college he will be entering in the fall also has a mandatory language requirement so he has to continue while he is there. Believe it or not he dropped Spanish this year and continued on his 4th yr of Chinese.

It's so easy to go through this process with rose colored blinders, you definetly need someone who can look at things objectively, who can't do that any better than a coach?
Trust me and many will agree, until your child lands up at college, you have no clue how difficult things can get. Mine was an excellent student, and a very good baseball player, but reality hit hard when he went off to school, he realized just how difficult trying to make it all happen can be. It took one full semester to learn to really buckle down and not only produce on the field but in the classroom and you are talking about an honors straight A HS student.
If a program has interest in my son and he doesn't have the academic requirements (or the talent level) for that program, I'd think twice about whether it was a good fit, even after having done all my homework, I want someone else to be objective and see things from the other side.

There is no harm, IMO, of travel or HS coaches being honest with their players about their ability (bb talent and academics) and answering coaches questions, honestly. Why would I want my player to go to a school where he will struggle in the classroom? Or on the field? In fact, I would be pretty darn ****ed if any coach led any college coach to beleive that my player would be right for their program if he wasn't.

Following what TPM has posted I have seen kid that were mediocre students and could have gotten in certain schools with coaches help--but what is the sense if the boy has to struggle to stay eligible---it is a recipe for disaster

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
bb1

You mention languages which is a great point--a lot of HS counselors will sway kids from taking two years of a language saying one year is enough---most colleges require two years---DO NOT GET TRAPPED

Excellent point, in the state of FL requirements are 2 years language for state school, at Clemson it was 3 for admission. Because son had so many math and science credits in HS, they waived the third year needed for language.
Did his talent in baseball help that cause, yes, did having honor math classes/science help also, you bet.

The comment the coach made about dedication to playing ball in college vs. studies most likly put things in a clearer light for my son as I think he is more focused on what he is looking for at the next level.

Do you consider an athlete with a 3.0-3.1 GPA a terrible student ?
3.0 in most conferences puts you on their honor roll.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Do you consider an athlete with a 3.0-3.1 GPA a terrible student ?
3.0 in most conferences puts you on their honor roll.

Of course not, but that doesn't mean he will be able to handle playing baseball and attending a school where the admissions requirements are 3.8+ or 1300+SAT scores. Maintaining a 3.0 in HS doesn't mean that you can do it in college.
What's your point?

quote:

Originally posted by ken:
The comment the coach made about dedication to playing ball in college vs. studies most likly put things in a clearer light for my son as I think he is more focused on what he his looking for at the next level.

BHD,
Haven't you stated once that your son took an extra year after HS for college entry? Not sure why he did this, but would he have been able to do as well as he did in college if not for that extra year?

That makes a big difference, there is another topic being discussed about that.

We know all kids are different, I have two and they are like black and white, though they both came from the same parents, raised basically the same, each developed differently. My daughter did not attend 4 year college, she barely could make it through JUCO so why put her in a siuation she couldn't handle.

My son got better grades, had more success in HS, yet my daughter is 10 times smarter than he will ever be, and works in an industry where most are graduate students and she doesn't even have a 4 year degree and can do any task put in front of her in 5 minutes while it would take others 2 weeks.

Kids are wired differently, a parent has to be able to recognize this through their unique personalities, but I don't beleive in placing young adults in situations they never will be able to handle. When playing a sport and attending college both at the same time, you don't have years to turn things around.

Although you allude to the fact that college academics came easy for your son, most will tell you it ain't that easy.

3.0 is definitely no slouch. However, it depends a lot on the courses that have been taken. Colleges want to see that a student is taking the toughest courses his school has to offer. In other words, honors and AP. If that is not the case then a 3.0 at a school that requires a 3.8 is a stretch and that is what worries coaches the most, will the kid stay eligible?

quote:

Originally posted by bb1:
3.0 is definitely no slouch. However, it depends a lot on the courses that have been taken. Colleges want to see that a student is taking the toughest courses his school has to offer. In other words, honors and AP. If that is not the case then a 3.0 at a school that requires a 3.8 is a stretch and that is what worries coaches the most, will the kid stay eligible?

You are right, 3.0 is great, but it also depends on what courses you are taking, a 3.0 in honors and AP holds a lot more substance than a 3.0 in regular HS courses.

I have stated this before, take a look at SAT/ACT requirements at most universities, that is the level they teach at, if your student's test scores are in the 900's why place them in an environment where 1300+ is the norm. Because they got a 3.0? The NCAA allows a sliding scale but that isn't reality these days, that is just for entry level for which division your student qualifies for. I don't want to hear about how kids just don't test well, tests are not all about how well you know the material, but how you approach situations to figure things out. Lots of psychological stuff goes into it as well.
When preparing for the SAT, I looked at those questions trying to figure out how anyone not having honors math could do well, yet I know of some that took no honors classes and scored pretty high.

quote:

BHD,
Haven't you stated once that your son took an extra year after HS for college entry? Not sure why he did this, but would he have been able to do as well as he did in college if not for that extra year?

I have already explained this to you at least 6 times. Had nothing to do with marks or BB. He wanted to play one more year of HS basketball. His marks would get him into any college in the country. He also wanted to take calculus which is required here to take a B Commerce.
Many guys do better in college than HS. They can be more motivated especially with BB hanging over their heads. They also get free study hall and tutoring.
Also the subjects in HS can be less relevant than college courses.

quote:

My son got better grades, had more success in HS, yet my daughter is 10 times smarter than he will ever be, and works in an industry where most are graduate students and she doesn't even have a 4 year degree and can do any task put in front of her in 5 minutes while it would take others 2 weeks.

So I guess you agree when I say GPAs are everything.

quote:

I have stated this before, take a look at SAT/ACT requirements at most universities, that is the level they teach at,

That is so quaint. Teaching at different levels according to the admissions level.
I would put to you that they teach at the level they can. Many of my son's profs were prestige graduates and taught at prestige schools.

BHD,
Where did you say GPA is everything?

It is not quaint.

Here's an example, Duke University admissions standards are much higher then Charleston Southern, even much higher than Clemson University, are you suggesting that they teach classes on the same level?
I don't think so. My son's BF attended Duke, a 4.5 and a 1250 SAT, he had no clue what was going on in his classes, he went way over his head.

quote:

Duke, a 4.5 and a 1250

College admissions are on a 4.0.
Yes I am saying professors teach at the same level regardless of college.
My son competed with grads from several prestige universities and he got the job offers.
He also was involved in a world wide competition with over 10,000 students from the top colleges. He came in 84th.
My son was in the top 5% world wide in his math SAT score.
I love people who buy into this branding, you can sell them more stuff at a higher price.

I meant his friend had a 4.5 which helped him get into Duke but he couldn't keep up, with baseball.

You are so totally wrong that all schools teach on the same level.

My son, my son, my son, you need to understand that your son is completely different from the next guy. Because he did something and was successful and it came easy to him doesn't mean that will happen for everyone. And regarding the job offers, have heard that in more posts than I have fingers along with the world wide competition.

Who really cares what % your son came in on the SAT math level, this is an issue I have with you, that has no relevance, as most that you post lately to giving advice to others in teh recruiting process.

As far as you saying GPA is everything, you went after 06 because he told some coaches that some players might not make it at a school because of their GPA. Am I the only one who thinks you say one thing in one post and another thing in another post, not consistant, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Am I the only one who thinks you say one thing in one post and another thing in another post, not consistant, IMO.

No you're not the only one who thinks that. But you seem to be one of the few who uses BBHD's posts to further fuel a repeating rebuttal process when everyone else just lets it go.

Yup, you are absolutely correct and I will continue to do so when members or their players are insulted, time and time again or every good topic (like this one)goes south.

You want to bring us some good stuff, no problem.

quote:

As far as you saying GPA is everything, you insulted 06

That was meant to be sarcastic. Your example of your daughter reflects my point.

TPM you are probably correct. I never checked because we didn't have to worry about admissions.
So my son's low admission college has some high quality students like my son's 2 roommates.

As I said many of my son's profs graduated at and taught at prestige schools.
I didn't know they toned down the lectures. Are you serious ?
My college was full of Rhodes Scholars. I also took classes at Brock U and U of Toronto. Same old stuff. No difference.

quote:

Originally posted by workinghard:
I hope to he** if I ever send a pm ( PRIVATE MESSAGE ) to someone that they do not make it public without my consent. In my opinion, that should be against board rules and should be removed as well!

But to the original topic. I think we all know that grades are extremely important whether it has anything to do with baseball or not.

Because any member wishes to use a private message to make their point does not mean that the receiver has to agree. I'd keep that in mind.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
bb1

You mention languages which is a great point--a lot of HS counselors will sway kids from taking two years of a language saying one year is enough---most colleges require two years---DO NOT GET TRAPPED

Excellent point, in the state of FL requirements are 2 years language for state school, at Clemson it was 3 for admission. Because son had so many math and science credits in HS, they waived the third year needed for language.
Did his talent in baseball help that cause, yes, did having honor math classes/science help also, you bet.

Again, some excellent points. One school interested in my daughter has a "Fine Arts" requirement. My dd is taking 4 years of math, science, spanish, ... She doesn't have one break or easy class. So, our guidance counselor called that school yesterday to work on our options since my daughter would, if forced, drop one of these (science) classes next year to get in the fine arts. We were told that with her "load" that her efforts would be rewarded and that requirement dropped. It is standard operational proceedure with students that have an "overload" of core classes for many universities.

For CA colleges (UC's, CSU's) a fine art class is required and they won't let you substitute another class for it.

Also, something I discovered in helping my son research college requirements is that if you take 4 years of one foreign language you most likely don't have to take more foreign language in college.

As a sophomore in college this year my son is really reaping the benefits of having worked hard in high school. Some of his college friends are struggling through calculus now and have told my son they really wished they had taken it in high school like he did. The harder they work in high school the more prepared they will be in college.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:

quote:

Originally posted by workinghard:
I hope to he** if I ever send a pm ( PRIVATE MESSAGE ) to someone that they do not make it public without my consent. In my opinion, that should be against board rules and should be removed as well!

But to the original topic. I think we all know that grades are extremely important whether it has anything to do with baseball or not.

Because any member wishes to use a private message to make their point does not mean that the receiver has to agree. I'd keep that in mind.

Correct Coach,
I will also keep in mind that when I send a private message it's meant to be private, regardless of the content, yet some may decide to make it public.

I always get a kick out of these conversations about grades and "quality" of schools.

As far as grades go - IMO - all it shows to me as an employer is whether or not you have applied yourself. Doesn't make much difference what school it was.

Did you - or didnt you apply yourself.

I would guess that over the last 20 years I have hired about 300 people. All corporate type jobs.

I have interviewed about 3,000.

The ratio has been incredibly consistent. You get some Ivy Leaguers - dumb as a rock - and as cocky as they come. You get others that are very smart - and present themselves as professionals from the get go.

Same for the colleges at the next "Notch".

And same for the colleges at the next "Notch" down.


Unless you are talking about potential brain surgeons - I just havent seen much difference at all.


That is why I think the whole "Ivy" League thing - to this day - is more about money and connections - than it is about true performance and true potential.

Then again - thats just been my singular experience.

Bottom line - Grades are important - regardless of what school you come from. The school itself - dont matter much to me.

workinghard,
JMO, but pm's are a way of communicating off of the main board.
It's not a vehicle for calling someone a moron, especially a long standing person who contributes some excellent stuff.
As far as I am concerned, not good board manners.


I understand that a lot goes into the hiring process for most companies, not just GPA or where a person attended. I am not going to hire anyone, even a genius, I don't care where he/she attended, if I do not think that they will be a proper "fit" for the job and the company.

The bottom line is that college entry is harder and harder to gain for many, even those special athletes who once were able to get in with 60 IQ's.

If it was so easy, everyone could just get into whatever place they wanted to, right?

The whole point of this topic is the importance of grades in HS, they are VERY important. Good grades open doors for many and gives good options. Better grades opens more. Personally for me, if I am sending my son to college, with a possible 18 credit work load they want you to have these days (to graduate on time)and PLAY baseball, he's going to go where he can find a balance, and not have to struggle in the classroom because he has 5 games a week for a whole semester, plus practice and time in the gym.

Not sure how all the other clutter entered into the topic.

TPM-
Agree with you 100%.
But I didn't see you say anything about someone publicizing a pm, that is what that is supposed to be, a "private message".
Again, pm's should not be used in that manner, but in my opinion, it's bad board manners when you publicize someones pm, regardless of content.