BBMAN has stated his view clearly and stated his experience with what many consider a less than serious criminal record.
Criminal records affect your life in a very serious way.
quote:Originally posted by johnny appleseed:
So everyone here agrees that alcohol is a drug. How would you like if a pilot occasionally drank alcohol, or as Coach Waltrip states, was a 'recreational" user of alcohol? Would it be okay if he only did it on his day off? What is the difference between using alcohol and using marijuana on off days? If the true argument here is about the drug aspect, and not the legality of the issue, what is the difference?
Feel free to take it as a compliment johnny. Like I said in my last post, I don't think everyone who uses pot becomes an addict and has their life go down the drain. As BHD has stated, aside from my personal views about drug use, my primary concern for kids (and really anyone) is the issue of legality.
To answer your above question, one major difference between alcohol and marijuana is that alcohol stays in your system for approximately 24 hours. Marijuana stays in your system for up to 30 days. In other words, for up to 24 hours after drinking, you will test positive for having alcohol in your system. For up to 30 days after you smoke pot, you can test positive for having THC in your system. As time goes on, the content diminishes, but it is in there - ergo, you can still be impaired by the substance for long after you actually feel the effects. Much longer for marijuana than for alcohol.
So, if Coach Waltrip were to have a few drinks today, when it was time for him to fly tomorrow night, all remnants of alcohol are gone and he will be "sober". If he were to smoke a few joints today, and he went to fly tomorrow night, or next week or the week after that, he would still have THC in his system and would still test positive for use of the drug. I would say that I would rather have Coach have a few drinks today than a few joints and then fly tomorrow.
quote:Originally posted by johnny appleseed:
So everyone here agrees that alcohol is a drug. How would you like if a pilot occasionally drank alcohol, or as Coach Waltrip states, was a 'recreational" user of alcohol? Would it be okay if he only did it on his day off? What is the difference between using alcohol and using marijuana on off days? If the true argument here is about the drug aspect, and not the legality of the issue, what is the difference?
Those are excellent questions.
Coach Waltrip can correct me if I am wrong, but unless it has changed rather recently, pilots have a threshold of alcohol that is allowable in their system. As a ships captain, I know that I am subject to zero tolerance, can't show a trace of alcohol, but I thought the pilots were allowed .04 and still allowed to fly.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
[To answer your above question, one major difference between alcohol and marijuana is that alcohol stays in your system for approximately 24 hours. Marijuana stays in your system for up to 30 days. In other words, for up to 24 hours after drinking, you will test positive for having alcohol in your system. For up to 30 days after you smoke pot, you can test positive for having THC in your system. As time goes on, the content diminishes, but it is in there - ergo, you can still be impaired by the substance for long after you actually feel the effects. Much longer for marijuana than for alcohol.
While good in theory, not true in practice. The body builds immunity to THC, hence the need for more each time to realize the same effect. Having trace elements of the drug in your system do not correlate to length or degree of effect/impairment.
Actually, quite the opposite is true of your analogy. Alcohol affects the body for a longer period of time, it's called alcohol withdrawal, or more commonly, a hangover. The length and severity of impairment is quite longer and more detrimental with alcohol.
Alcohol is a much stronger drug. The major difference between the effect of the two, are the ends of the spectrum, not the median. Alcohol can be regulated to have less effect than marijuana on the low consumption end of the spectrum, and can also have far greater impairments and negative effects on the high consumption end of the spectrum.
Just as a PS...Look up the word Sober and its definition has nothing to do with drinking, it is about clarity of thought. To suggest that the next day, a person has more clarity of thought because they drank instead of using marijuana, can be quite wrong depending on the degree of use.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
I get a kick out of parents who say their kids don't drink in college, perhaps it's just not something they tell you or you have seen. It's the same way for other illegal substances. Very available and these kids are away from home for the first time.
Your quote here would indicate you believe ALL college kids drink and partake in other illegal substances. Is that what you truly believe?
Here is a tragic story about a guy who was a drug addict. He was a big time Mary Jane user and seller. My daughters ex fiancé shot and killed him after he broke into a drug store..
A W5 story Click on part 2 on the right.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/Arti...1/20091031?hub=WFive
A W5 story Click on part 2 on the right.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/Arti...1/20091031?hub=WFive
CPLZ,
Yes, we can disagree...I respect your opinion about marijuana... I have not read anything about your posts that I would think would influence young people into the use of this illegal drug. Your arguments seem to have a foundation in reason, logic and in no way condoning its use. You sound as if you may have experience in these matters and I don’t mean using it, but dealing with people who may be drug users...as a counselor maybe? I don’t know, but you seem to be speaking from a position of experience. I enjoy discussions like this, but I do think there have been postings in this thread that are dangerous. I do not believe it is wise to make statements such as this as one poster did:
‘...Bill Walton smoked pot in college to calm his nerves and nothing bad ever happened to him. I think it is a mistake to believe that people's lives will be ruined because you do not agree with their choices.’
Because young adults and children read these boards is making such a statement wise?
Or how about this....
‘To say marijuana is a gateway drug? I can't wrap my arms around this since pot and other addictive narcotics are completely different and have no connection to one another other than being illegal.’
Obviously we can and do disagree about marijuana being a gateway drug, but as a younger person what am I to conclude when I read that the only difference between hard drugs and pot is that it’s illegal?...when written by a respected member of the baseball community? What kind of thoughts does a youngster take away with this statement? I don’t it’s a good one...
I’m saying we have a greater responsibility here to be careful about our adult personal opinions because of those who may read our words and then be influenced by them...
As far as alcohol and flying is concerned...yes, the legal FAA limit is .04 blood/alcohol. However, my company’s policy is zero tolerance. They will and have fired pilots for violating this rule...as they should. If a person cannot control their alcohol consumption enough not to have any alcohol in their system when reporting to work, then they have a serious problem. We have a drug/alcohol EAP program to help pilots and employees with these issues. However, there are those who do not seek such help and when caught suffer the unfortunate consequences...it is very sad and un-necessary.
Johnny A, you said, ‘I am trying to say that although there are people who lose control of their lives because of drugs, there are as many people who are in complete control of their lives who use marijuana.’
I disagree...people who use marijuana recognize it is illegal and typically realize they could suffer the legal and monetary repercussions if they are caught. What is so ‘...in complete control’ about someone’s life when they are risking arrest over the stuff? I would submit that people who use marijuana are in complete un-control of their lives... Unless it is medically necessary, the continued desire to smoke pot is not normal. It is not a mature or prudent thing for a responsible adult to do...to place themselves into a position to potentially lose their job, freedom and be stuck with the stigma of being a drug user. It is not worth it Johnny...
GW, I knew when I wrote those words... ‘I am clean and sober’ that I would awaken you! I’m sitting in your backyard today...I’m at the Holiday Inn in Oakbrook...
Yes, we can disagree...I respect your opinion about marijuana... I have not read anything about your posts that I would think would influence young people into the use of this illegal drug. Your arguments seem to have a foundation in reason, logic and in no way condoning its use. You sound as if you may have experience in these matters and I don’t mean using it, but dealing with people who may be drug users...as a counselor maybe? I don’t know, but you seem to be speaking from a position of experience. I enjoy discussions like this, but I do think there have been postings in this thread that are dangerous. I do not believe it is wise to make statements such as this as one poster did:
‘...Bill Walton smoked pot in college to calm his nerves and nothing bad ever happened to him. I think it is a mistake to believe that people's lives will be ruined because you do not agree with their choices.’
Because young adults and children read these boards is making such a statement wise?
Or how about this....
‘To say marijuana is a gateway drug? I can't wrap my arms around this since pot and other addictive narcotics are completely different and have no connection to one another other than being illegal.’
Obviously we can and do disagree about marijuana being a gateway drug, but as a younger person what am I to conclude when I read that the only difference between hard drugs and pot is that it’s illegal?...when written by a respected member of the baseball community? What kind of thoughts does a youngster take away with this statement? I don’t it’s a good one...
I’m saying we have a greater responsibility here to be careful about our adult personal opinions because of those who may read our words and then be influenced by them...
As far as alcohol and flying is concerned...yes, the legal FAA limit is .04 blood/alcohol. However, my company’s policy is zero tolerance. They will and have fired pilots for violating this rule...as they should. If a person cannot control their alcohol consumption enough not to have any alcohol in their system when reporting to work, then they have a serious problem. We have a drug/alcohol EAP program to help pilots and employees with these issues. However, there are those who do not seek such help and when caught suffer the unfortunate consequences...it is very sad and un-necessary.
Johnny A, you said, ‘I am trying to say that although there are people who lose control of their lives because of drugs, there are as many people who are in complete control of their lives who use marijuana.’
I disagree...people who use marijuana recognize it is illegal and typically realize they could suffer the legal and monetary repercussions if they are caught. What is so ‘...in complete control’ about someone’s life when they are risking arrest over the stuff? I would submit that people who use marijuana are in complete un-control of their lives... Unless it is medically necessary, the continued desire to smoke pot is not normal. It is not a mature or prudent thing for a responsible adult to do...to place themselves into a position to potentially lose their job, freedom and be stuck with the stigma of being a drug user. It is not worth it Johnny...
GW, I knew when I wrote those words... ‘I am clean and sober’ that I would awaken you! I’m sitting in your backyard today...I’m at the Holiday Inn in Oakbrook...
quote:Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
."Gotta go fly now...and I want America to know, I am clean and sober."
If you wanted to go to Jellystone with us Coach all you had to do was ask!
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I don't know GW, I think this guy needs a drug test!
My eyes are transfixed to the *'s GW and I can't look away...what am I am supposed to do now?
An interesting experiment to show that the social ramifications with marijuana have more to do with ingrained perceptions than reality.
For the next month, anytime you refer to alcohol, call it "drugs". It is a hugely powerful drug, there is no escaping that.
"Me and the boys are going out for somebeers, drugs"
"Honey would you like somewine drugs with dinner?"
You get the idea. Not only would you not want anyone else to hear what you were saying, for fear of misunderstanding, you would feel uncomfortable saying it. Yet, that is truly what we do, just cloak it in socially acceptable terms.
By classifying marijuana as a "drug", we deem it socially unacceptable, without really considering why. It's just unacceptable because it's illegal. But why is it illegal? Because our parents, parents wanted it that way, and that's how we were raised. Illegal = bad.
Shouldn't our laws reflect reality and not some skewed perception and wrong tradition?
I'm not advocating marijuana use or legality (wholly different topic), but I'll go study for study with anyone that wants to try and tell me how much worse marijuana is for you than alcohol (I already know the answer...alcohol is a far more destructive drug).
We're spending billions fighting a war against "drugs", but have never questioned the definitions. That doesn't speak of an enlightened and thoughtful society.
For the next month, anytime you refer to alcohol, call it "drugs". It is a hugely powerful drug, there is no escaping that.
"Me and the boys are going out for some
"Honey would you like some
You get the idea. Not only would you not want anyone else to hear what you were saying, for fear of misunderstanding, you would feel uncomfortable saying it. Yet, that is truly what we do, just cloak it in socially acceptable terms.
By classifying marijuana as a "drug", we deem it socially unacceptable, without really considering why. It's just unacceptable because it's illegal. But why is it illegal? Because our parents, parents wanted it that way, and that's how we were raised. Illegal = bad.
Shouldn't our laws reflect reality and not some skewed perception and wrong tradition?
I'm not advocating marijuana use or legality (wholly different topic), but I'll go study for study with anyone that wants to try and tell me how much worse marijuana is for you than alcohol (I already know the answer...alcohol is a far more destructive drug).
We're spending billions fighting a war against "drugs", but have never questioned the definitions. That doesn't speak of an enlightened and thoughtful society.
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Do what everyone else is doing these days and hit this!
Depending on who you ask it works like a champ!
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- "My eyes are transfixed to the *'s GW and I can't look away...what am I am supposed to do now?"
Do what everyone else is doing these days and hit this!
Depending on who you ask it works like a champ!
.
CPLZ, I agree with 1/2 of your argument. I agree with the 1/2 that says alcohol is a drug and probably a more potent and addicting drug than marijuana. I don't have a problem with your statements ie ""Me and the boys are going out for some beers, drugs". Because it is true. It is hypocritical of society to ban some, but not others. However, rather than legalize all other substances, why not make alcohol use illegal? I know tried it once, didn't work. Why didn't it work? Alcohol became an illegal drug trade and got too expensive and socially costly to continue.
I don't know that you have to convince anyone of your point that alcohol is also a drug. My whole point is that right now marijuana is illegal and you wind up getting arrested for use and possession. That is how it is different than alcohol. We're not going to change societies values and decisions about these things on this board. Don't use pot if for no other reason, you may wind up with a criminal record for the rest of your life.
I gotta stop reading this thread or I might have to smoke some of it myself. Driving me crazy.
I don't know that you have to convince anyone of your point that alcohol is also a drug. My whole point is that right now marijuana is illegal and you wind up getting arrested for use and possession. That is how it is different than alcohol. We're not going to change societies values and decisions about these things on this board. Don't use pot if for no other reason, you may wind up with a criminal record for the rest of your life.
I gotta stop reading this thread or I might have to smoke some of it myself.
Driving me crazy.
this may be a bit off track from the discusion, but here goes anyway.
while i don't advocate the use of teenage drug use. pot use is much more prevalent than you may know. athletes, valadictorian's, etc. many of these user's end up going to great college's,some playing a variety of sports. like it or not it happens every day. but unless these kids are caught..we'll likely not know about it.
i am a recovering alcholic. have been sober 24 yrs. i've never met a pot user that beat his wife and kids, or was violent in anyway. but i know more than a few violent drinkers. just one downfall of the demon rum.
if any of your kids were caught drinking,after being upset it is usually thought of as no big deal, something all kids do. but with pot it's looked at entirely different. maybe with good reason? that's not for me to say.
i'm also the father of an addict, 2 boy's raised the same two different path's. who know's why? my point to you all, you never know who, what, where. take some time to learn about teenage drug use. just saying "don't do it" doesn't alway's work. like anything in life, knowledge is king.
while these discusion's are usually uncomfortable, they are as important as anything talked about here. again that's just my opinion. i apoligize if this post offended anyone.
while i don't advocate the use of teenage drug use. pot use is much more prevalent than you may know. athletes, valadictorian's, etc. many of these user's end up going to great college's,some playing a variety of sports. like it or not it happens every day. but unless these kids are caught..we'll likely not know about it.
i am a recovering alcholic. have been sober 24 yrs. i've never met a pot user that beat his wife and kids, or was violent in anyway. but i know more than a few violent drinkers. just one downfall of the demon rum.
if any of your kids were caught drinking,after being upset it is usually thought of as no big deal, something all kids do. but with pot it's looked at entirely different. maybe with good reason? that's not for me to say.
i'm also the father of an addict, 2 boy's raised the same two different path's. who know's why? my point to you all, you never know who, what, where. take some time to learn about teenage drug use. just saying "don't do it" doesn't alway's work. like anything in life, knowledge is king.
while these discusion's are usually uncomfortable, they are as important as anything talked about here. again that's just my opinion. i apoligize if this post offended anyone.
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Well said 20dad and I agree completely.
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- "while these discusion's are usually uncomfortable, they are as important as anything talked about here."
Well said 20dad and I agree completely.
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Very well said 20dad. Thanks for sharing your frontline experiences.
Just to be clear, I gave (very good) reasons before saying, "Don't do it." My message wasn't meant to be that simple just in case you thought it was.
Again, thanks for your post. Its a good one.
Just to be clear, I gave (very good) reasons before saying, "Don't do it." My message wasn't meant to be that simple just in case you thought it was.
Again, thanks for your post. Its a good one.
quote:Originally posted by Coach Waltrip:
this is what I believe...it's just my opinion that is built upon a lifetime of experiences of exposure to the dark side of drug and alcohol abuse.
Noted.
quote:Those who fail to understand marijuana is a gateway drug are naive of the dangers to others...what this drug can lead too and has led to...they just don’t get it.
No. Those who cling to the myth that marijuana is a gatway drug due to anecdotes and "personal experience" don't get it. Every study by the US and Canadadian governments, the World Health Organization and Consumer Union ince 1970 have concluded that marijuana IS NOT a gateway drug; that is it does not follow that marijuana uses is a precursor to or a predictor or the use of heavier drugs. Again, only 9.1% of those who began marijuana use before the age of 15 and 1.1% of those who began use after the age of 20 eventually used heroin.
quote:In an adult only message board I could somewhat understand this attitude because we would all be consenting adults. Since I am a ‘live and let live’ kinda of guy, I would normally care less and not be so passionate about this subject, but since there are minor children and young men who can be easily influenced by older people’s attitudes...and who often read these boards I find this cavalier attitude toward the illegal use if marijuana unacceptable.
Studies have also indicated that when we are not truthful and attempt to scare our youth with inaccuracies, we often do more harm than good.
We need to trust our young people to handle the truth.
quote:Who am I you say to be so judgmental? Nobody, but a father who loves his children, a retired police officer who has seen lives destroyed (yes, even by excessive use of marijuana) and a baseball coach who teaches young men by my word and deed. If I am dismissive and cavalier about marijuana use...I am certain they will be too. And I will not be responsible for leading any young man down that path by my dismissive attitude.
I don't believe anyone here suggested such a thing. Don't confuse disagreement with encouragement.
quote:Could a young man become a drug abuser and addict of hard drugs anyway? Of course he could, but I'll be darn if I'm going to let that happen because I had a 'so what' attitude toward marijuana.
It is more likely to happen if you are not honest with them. Honesty does not mean condoning. There are enough legitimate reasons to not smoke pot. We don't need to manufacture others.
quote:I fly an airliner that carries up to 180 people. These good people put their lives in my hands, trust my ability and believe I have the judgment to safely transport them across this beautiful country. How would they feel?...how would you feel if you or your children were flying on an airplane with me at the controls if you knew I was a 'recreational' user of marijuana? Would it be okay if I only did it on my days off and when off duty in the hotel between flights? Would you still trust my judgment and skill?
Again, if you think anyone here suggested or would approve of this, you have seriously misunderstood the disagreement among us.
quote:If I were to be caught and most certainly would with random drug testing, my life would be ruined...I would not be allowed to fly again...I would be unemployed and un-hirable in any other position of responsibility...probably for the remainder of my life.
This is what I mean about there being enough legitimate reasons to not smoke pot. This is the truth. Use this instead of the myth of a gateway drug. Kids can handle the truth.
quote:For the record, I don't care what anyone's personal opinion is about drug use...that's their opinion, but when it comes to being in an environment where young men are going to read my words and possibly emulate my attitude...then yes, I do have a problem.
I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way, but you began your post by admitting this was your opinion. Some of us have been stating and referencing facts.
Yes there are young people here, but I won't lie to them. When they find out I did, and they will, when will the believe me again?
The truth is enough. And I have faith in our young people to understand the truth.
quote:Studies have also indicated that when we are not truthful and attempt to scare our youth with inaccuracies, we often do more harm than good.
We need to trust our young people to handle the truth.
I agree with all of that.
Now the truth is, for HS baseball players...that if you get caught with marijuana you severely limit your chances to play baseball this year, let alone beyond HS. And as was pointed out, you may find yourself with a blotch on your record that you will live with for a long time.
I also have faith that our young people can understand that perfectly well.
Jimmy03 - maybe we should discuss this from a different point of view. What message would you send to your kids about marijuana? What message would you send to your neighbor's kids?
What exactly is the message to a youngster?
It's no big deal?
It ought to be legalized?
It's less dangerous than alcohol?
There's no proof it is a gateway drug?
Many people have done it in the past?
Parent's who have done it have no business telling their kids not to do it?
People who counsel youngsters from doing it are taking themselves too seriously?
People who drink alcohol are hypocrites for counseling against it?
What exactly is the message to a youngster?
It's no big deal?
It ought to be legalized?
It's less dangerous than alcohol?
There's no proof it is a gateway drug?
Many people have done it in the past?
Parent's who have done it have no business telling their kids not to do it?
People who counsel youngsters from doing it are taking themselves too seriously?
People who drink alcohol are hypocrites for counseling against it?
Truths (from personal experience) and reasons not to smoke pot.
Pot messes up your lungs.
Pot takes away your drive to work hard.
Pot takes away your drive to socialize and pursue a relationship.
Pot is an expensive habit.
Untruths (from personal experience)
Pot is physically addictive. Its a habit only, there are no withdrawals. I went from constant user to quitting cold turkey and felt better from that day on.
Pot is a gateway drug. Pot, like alcohol and like cigarettes, simply puts you in the wrong crowd. This is a problem for teenagers, but is not exclusive to pot.
As a few have eluded to here, there are very good and very real reasons to not smoke pot, you don't have to make things up. I am disappointed in myself that I didn't see that as a teenager, and I am lucky I got out when I did.
And back to Lincecum, I am disappointed in him as well. I will not look at him the same ever again. And TRhit, I don't care if he was smoking it or not at the time he was pulled over, if his car smelled that bad, he is a user. And that is what disappoints me.
Pot messes up your lungs.
Pot takes away your drive to work hard.
Pot takes away your drive to socialize and pursue a relationship.
Pot is an expensive habit.
Untruths (from personal experience)
Pot is physically addictive. Its a habit only, there are no withdrawals. I went from constant user to quitting cold turkey and felt better from that day on.
Pot is a gateway drug. Pot, like alcohol and like cigarettes, simply puts you in the wrong crowd. This is a problem for teenagers, but is not exclusive to pot.
As a few have eluded to here, there are very good and very real reasons to not smoke pot, you don't have to make things up. I am disappointed in myself that I didn't see that as a teenager, and I am lucky I got out when I did.
And back to Lincecum, I am disappointed in him as well. I will not look at him the same ever again. And TRhit, I don't care if he was smoking it or not at the time he was pulled over, if his car smelled that bad, he is a user. And that is what disappoints me.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
What message would you send to your kids about marijuana?
I know you asked this of Jimmy, but wanted a crack at it too (being the greedy son of a buck I am!
)Son,
Don't ever put yourself in a situation where someone else is going to control the outcome. Don't use illegal substances, and don't be around people using illegal substances.
Whether the substance is bad for you or not, or whether it ought to be legal, are battles that can't be fought after the fact. You need to ask yourself if your whole future is worth one cigarette, or one beer, or one joint...the answer's no. Be smart, make the good decision, make the tough decision and control as much of your own destiny as you can.
Then, if questions arise...honesty. Cold, hard, light of day, honesty.
I've worked in a couple of businesses where credibility was in short supply...having some, is like nectar to a thirsty man. We shouldn't trivialize its impact with an ends justify the means strategy.
CPLZ,
Could I call your posts outside of the (stash) box thinking? I guess you’re suggesting we break the chains of societal perceptions about marijuana. Okay, but what would that accomplish? Does that make marijuana use any less wrong because our parents, parents thought it was?
What I am hearing in all your posts is you believe marijuana is less dangerous than alcohol. And since it is a lesser vice than alcohol, society has it all wrong on what is worse for us. I’m confused here...because you say you are not advocating legalization of marijuana while at the same time questioning the logic of why it is illegal. I find your statements very contradictory because that’s exactly what I am understanding here...if that’s your opinion...well, okay...so be it. I disagree with your opinion, but respect your right to have it...
Could I call your posts outside of the (stash) box thinking? I guess you’re suggesting we break the chains of societal perceptions about marijuana. Okay, but what would that accomplish? Does that make marijuana use any less wrong because our parents, parents thought it was?
What I am hearing in all your posts is you believe marijuana is less dangerous than alcohol. And since it is a lesser vice than alcohol, society has it all wrong on what is worse for us. I’m confused here...because you say you are not advocating legalization of marijuana while at the same time questioning the logic of why it is illegal. I find your statements very contradictory because that’s exactly what I am understanding here...if that’s your opinion...well, okay...so be it. I disagree with your opinion, but respect your right to have it...
No. Those who cling to the myth that marijuana is a gatway drug due to anecdotes and "personal experience" don't get it. Every study by the US and Canadadian governments, the World Health Organization and Consumer Union ince 1970 have concluded that marijuana IS NOT a gateway drug; that is it does not follow that marijuana uses is a precursor to or a predictor or the use of heavier drugs. Again, only 9.1% of those who began marijuana use before the age of 15 and 1.1% of those who began use after the age of 20 eventually used heroin.
Jimmy, maybe you should spend some time in the real world instead of obsolete studies and check it out...then maybe you will get it...
Studies have also indicated that when we are not truthful and attempt to scare our youth with inaccuracies, we often do more harm than good.
We need to trust our young people to handle the truth.
It is more likely to happen if you are not honest with them. Honesty does not mean condoning. There are enough legitimate reasons to not smoke pot. We don't need to manufacture others.
What part of anything I wrote about marijuana do you find me being dishonest about? You are failing to provide specifics. Is it because I have been a police officer and have seen first hand what the stuff can do to people and then share those experiences that you just happen to disagree with? I don’t need statistics from obsolete studies to quantify my personal experiences...
Again, if you think anyone here suggested or would approve of this, you have seriously misunderstood the disagreement among us.
My point about flying an airliner is that most anyone in the world would not want their pilot using marijuana...not even occasionally...I don’t need statistics to state the obvious here...
This is what I mean about there being enough legitimate reasons to not smoke pot. This is the truth. Use this instead of the myth of a gateway drug. Kids can handle the truth.
Thanks for the encouragement...but the part about being a gateway drug is something I again, have witnessed first hand Jimmy. I don’t need a study to tell me what I saw with my own two eyes. I’m sorry you believe this is not truthful, but maybe you should try spending some time in the trenches...
I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way, but you began your post by admitting this was your opinion. Some of us have been stating and referencing facts.
Yeah, you’re right this is my opinion and I still believe it is reckless to minimize and dismiss marijuana usage regardless of how many studies you pull off the web by academic and governmental institutions who can financially gain by making marijuana legal. Oh yeah, that’s right, this could be a huge governmental windfall...think of all the tax money that could be generated if pot were to become legal...could probably end our federal debt...
Yes there are young people here, but I won't lie to them. When they find out I did, and they will, when will the believe me again?
The truth is enough. And I have faith in our young people to understand the truth.
You have implied at least six times in this post that I have been dishonest about marijuana use to the youth I have contact with and who may be reading this post...guess I’m just a poor misled soul who needs an obsolete study to get his ‘facts’ straight...
And you sir, are ignorant of the reality of marijuana use and its consequences to our youth...
Jimmy, maybe you should spend some time in the real world instead of obsolete studies and check it out...then maybe you will get it...
Studies have also indicated that when we are not truthful and attempt to scare our youth with inaccuracies, we often do more harm than good.
We need to trust our young people to handle the truth.
It is more likely to happen if you are not honest with them. Honesty does not mean condoning. There are enough legitimate reasons to not smoke pot. We don't need to manufacture others.
What part of anything I wrote about marijuana do you find me being dishonest about? You are failing to provide specifics. Is it because I have been a police officer and have seen first hand what the stuff can do to people and then share those experiences that you just happen to disagree with? I don’t need statistics from obsolete studies to quantify my personal experiences...
Again, if you think anyone here suggested or would approve of this, you have seriously misunderstood the disagreement among us.
My point about flying an airliner is that most anyone in the world would not want their pilot using marijuana...not even occasionally...I don’t need statistics to state the obvious here...
This is what I mean about there being enough legitimate reasons to not smoke pot. This is the truth. Use this instead of the myth of a gateway drug. Kids can handle the truth.
Thanks for the encouragement...but the part about being a gateway drug is something I again, have witnessed first hand Jimmy. I don’t need a study to tell me what I saw with my own two eyes. I’m sorry you believe this is not truthful, but maybe you should try spending some time in the trenches...
I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way, but you began your post by admitting this was your opinion. Some of us have been stating and referencing facts.
Yeah, you’re right this is my opinion and I still believe it is reckless to minimize and dismiss marijuana usage regardless of how many studies you pull off the web by academic and governmental institutions who can financially gain by making marijuana legal. Oh yeah, that’s right, this could be a huge governmental windfall...think of all the tax money that could be generated if pot were to become legal...could probably end our federal debt...
Yes there are young people here, but I won't lie to them. When they find out I did, and they will, when will the believe me again?
The truth is enough. And I have faith in our young people to understand the truth.
You have implied at least six times in this post that I have been dishonest about marijuana use to the youth I have contact with and who may be reading this post...guess I’m just a poor misled soul who needs an obsolete study to get his ‘facts’ straight...
And you sir, are ignorant of the reality of marijuana use and its consequences to our youth...
Coach,
There's a difference between understanding truths and acting upon them.
It is true that alcohol in most ways is a much more detrimental drug to both the individual and society, than marijuana. That doesn't mean I support marijuana use or legality, or that I advocate making alcohol illegal.
I can also point out that we spend billions fighting a war against an enemy our parents, parents defined, by the society that they lived in at their time and question its legitimacy in the light of hypocrisy that legal alcohol casts us in, without advocating anything more than honest assessment.
We aren't being honest with ourselves if we demonize marijuana and celebrate alcohol. The laws on the books are antiquated and fashioned from ignorance. Much of that ignorance has been shown in this thread, for no other reason than that's what our parents wanted us to blindly believe. Because those laws still stand, we spend billions fighting a hypocritical war, that we can't win (prohibition proved that in the '20s) without asking why?
It is exactly places like this that should make us reflect and consider what we are doing and why we are doing it?
Change is coming, it has to. It's just coming at a painfully slow and expensive pace and in its wake are people who are wrongfully ostracized for no other reason than we won't be educated and honest with ourselves.
We are much like the addict in that regard...the one thing that forces change, is pain. When we've had enough, we'll change.
I know a recovered alcoholic that thanks God for cocaine. He claims, I could have drank for another 50 years, with a wake of destruction in my path that I would have hated to know. Instead, I found cocaine and it accelerated my abuse so that I had enough pain in under a year. Think of all those people out there who get to experience me now, for the last 18 years, without the wreckage I would have brought to their lives. Thank God for cocaine.
So, whether or not I advocate legalization is not in this conversation. I advocate education and honesty and discussion...and hope for change.
There's a difference between understanding truths and acting upon them.
It is true that alcohol in most ways is a much more detrimental drug to both the individual and society, than marijuana. That doesn't mean I support marijuana use or legality, or that I advocate making alcohol illegal.
I can also point out that we spend billions fighting a war against an enemy our parents, parents defined, by the society that they lived in at their time and question its legitimacy in the light of hypocrisy that legal alcohol casts us in, without advocating anything more than honest assessment.
We aren't being honest with ourselves if we demonize marijuana and celebrate alcohol. The laws on the books are antiquated and fashioned from ignorance. Much of that ignorance has been shown in this thread, for no other reason than that's what our parents wanted us to blindly believe. Because those laws still stand, we spend billions fighting a hypocritical war, that we can't win (prohibition proved that in the '20s) without asking why?
It is exactly places like this that should make us reflect and consider what we are doing and why we are doing it?
Change is coming, it has to. It's just coming at a painfully slow and expensive pace and in its wake are people who are wrongfully ostracized for no other reason than we won't be educated and honest with ourselves.
We are much like the addict in that regard...the one thing that forces change, is pain. When we've had enough, we'll change.
I know a recovered alcoholic that thanks God for cocaine. He claims, I could have drank for another 50 years, with a wake of destruction in my path that I would have hated to know. Instead, I found cocaine and it accelerated my abuse so that I had enough pain in under a year. Think of all those people out there who get to experience me now, for the last 18 years, without the wreckage I would have brought to their lives. Thank God for cocaine.
So, whether or not I advocate legalization is not in this conversation. I advocate education and honesty and discussion...and hope for change.
Very well stated CPLZ...
I can respect your perspective and acknowledge that one day things may change...
I can respect your perspective and acknowledge that one day things may change...
If you spread the myth of "gateway" status, you are being dishonest.
And I, sir, have been in the trenches and realize the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence.
9.1% of users under the age of 15 move on to heroin. Gateway drug? Hardly. You anecdotal evidence is no more accurate than the fact the 90% of all heroin users started with mother's milk. (Let's ban nursing mothers!!!)
As an educator, parent and former police sergeant, (narcotics) I have learned that our youth deserve and can handle the facts about drugs and that when they get less, they are les inclined to believe us when it is even more important.
And I, sir, have been in the trenches and realize the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence.
9.1% of users under the age of 15 move on to heroin. Gateway drug? Hardly. You anecdotal evidence is no more accurate than the fact the 90% of all heroin users started with mother's milk. (Let's ban nursing mothers!!!)
As an educator, parent and former police sergeant, (narcotics) I have learned that our youth deserve and can handle the facts about drugs and that when they get less, they are les inclined to believe us when it is even more important.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
If you spread the myth of "gateway" status, you are being dishonest.
And I, sir, have been in the trenches and realize the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence.
9.1% of users under the age of 15 move on to heroin. Gateway drug? Hardly. You anecdotal evidence is no more accurate than the fact the 90% of all heroin users started with mother's milk. (Let's ban nursing mothers!!!)
As an educator, parent and former police sergeant, (narcotics) I have learned that our youth deserve and can handle the facts about drugs and that when they get less, they are les inclined to believe us when it is even more important.
Okay Sarg...thanks for the facts...maybe I should disregard my experiences as anecdotal hogwash...and spend more time in the classroom
quote:Originally posted by DaddyBo:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
I get a kick out of parents who say their kids don't drink in college, perhaps it's just not something they tell you or you have seen. It's the same way for other illegal substances. Very available and these kids are away from home for the first time.
Your quote here would indicate you believe ALL college kids drink and partake in other illegal substances. Is that what you truly believe?
Did I use the word ALL? All I said that I find it interesting that most parents (here and anywhere else) will say their kids don't drink.
If your son or daughter has had one beer, one glass of wine or whatever, they drink.
quote:And I, sir, have been in the trenches and realize the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence.
9.1% of users under the age of 15 move on to heroin. Gateway drug? Hardly. You anecdotal evidence is no more accurate than the fact the 90% of all heroin users started with mother's milk. (Let's ban nursing mothers!!!)
Anecedotal evidence may very well be scientific if the anecdotes also support or prove the general proposition. I'll bet that if we interviewed every bankteller who has been robbed at gunpoint, that everyone of them would report that they experienced some "anxiety" or "stress" over the encounter. Each account would be an anecdote but how many of them would we have to hear before we thought there might be some validity to the proposition that getting robbed causes stress?
Obviously, if bogus premises are employed to support falacious arguments like the mother's milk red-herring or straw-man, then arguments can be made to support anything.
Real science is able to predict things about the future. When Newton developed his laws of gravity for instance, his equations were able to precisely explain how "any" given apple would fall from "any" given tree.
Social science is not real science. It cannot tell me how each "apple" (person) will perform given a set of circumstances. All it can do is describe what percentage of a population might do given a set of circumstances. Until these sciences can explain what a specific individual will do given a set of circumstances, then I think one needs to be careful what "science" they hang their hat on.
Some people look for answers that make them feel most comfortable about themselves. That may not be the best answer for the next guy however.
Jimmy03 - I respect your opinions. I ask again. What message do you send your son regarding marijuana?
quote:If your son or daughter has had one beer, one glass of wine or whatever, they drink.
TPM-
PLEASE, again, another outlandish comment. If my son or daughter has had one beer or glass of wine, I would say exactly that, they have had a beer or glass of wine.
That is a long way from someone who "DRINKS".
As a matter of fact, my son told me that he tried a screw driver when his roommate had a party and he hated it. Told me (and I believe him as we do have a trusting relationship and contrary to what you said, it has everything to do with trust) that he hasn't tried alcohol since. Does that mean he drinks? Absolutely not.
In high school I tried a cigar and got sick. Never to smoke again. Does that mean I smoke?
Maybe we need to get back to talking baseball!
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Smoke? No.
Fume? Maybe.
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Smoke? No.
Fume? Maybe.
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quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Anecedotal evidence may very well be scientific if the anecdotes also support or prove the general proposition.
There are occasions when anecdotal and scientific evidence align. That does not improve the quality of the anecdotal evidence, nor does it make it scientific.
quote:Obviously, if bogus premises are employed to support falacious arguments like the mother's milk red-herring or straw-man, then arguments can be made to support anything.
Which is exactly why I compared the myth of gateway status marijuana to the mother's milk BS.
quote:Real science is able to predict things about the future. When Newton developed his laws of gravity for instance, his equations were able to precisely explain how "any" given apple would fall from "any" given tree.
There is a difference between a scientific theorem and a scientific study.
quote:Social science is not real science. It cannot tell me how each "apple" (person) will perform given a set of circumstances. All it can do is describe what percentage of a population might do given a set of circumstances. Until these sciences can explain what a specific individual will do given a set of circumstances, then I think one needs to be careful what "science" they hang their hat on.
All of the studies I have quoted have passed peer review, and most importantly have been repeated with nearly the exact same results. I'm sure you understand the importance of that.
quote:Some people look for answers that make them feel most comfortable about themselves. That may not be the best answer for the next guy however.
That describes anecdotal evidence. The answers I found while on the job were not one's I looked for or expected. They were discovered by the US and Canadian governments, a vehemently anti-drug task force assemebled by Lyndon Johnson, the AMA and Consumer's Union. They were not looking to be comfortable.
quote:Jimmy03 - I respect your opinions. I ask again. What message do you send your son regarding marijuana?
I educated my sons on the true dangers of getting involved with an illegal substances, including alcohol, since they were under drinking age at the time, and the consequences to their health, future and freedom. I did not perpetuate myths. They trust me to tell the truth and I would not and will not jeopardize that trust.
My kids are not perfect. But they are not on drugs. One is subject to and has been randomly tested by his employer and passed each test. I trust the other as he trusts me.
quote:Originally posted by Coach Waltrip:
[Yeah, you’re right this is my opinion and I still believe it is reckless to minimize and dismiss marijuana usage regardless of how many studies you pull off the web by academic and governmental institutions who can financially gain by making marijuana legal.
Well, I will tell you straight up it should be legal. All one has to do is look at history.. the 1920's.. when they outlawed booze. All it did was create a black market, encourage gangsters like Al Capone, and drive users underground. My own grandfather brewed in his basement. But they didn't go away. You can spend BILLIONS of dollars busting pot smokers, and they have, and guess what? It doesn't work! It's called supply and demand. Make it illegal (create barriers to entry) and all it does is drive up the price. Drive up the price and.. voila! You instantly create more suppliers!
It is a never-ending chain.
If you want a perfect world, where everyone follows the law to the letter, forget it. It won't happen, can't happen, and I'll go a step further. If it DID happen you would be living in a Stalinistic dictatorship.. if everyone complied with "A" you can rest assure "B" and "C" are coming.
To wit: Our forefathers. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams. All lawbreakers. They defied British rule.
Now, I'm not advocating marijuana use, or lawbreaking for that matter, but good grief! If you make an herb like marijuana illegal, what else do you want to make illegal? I'm old enough to see a LOT of things have been made illegal in my lifetime. You can't even smoke a cigarette in most bars these days.
Let me tell you folks, more laws, and more restrictions are coming. And with it, more resistance.
quote:Originally posted by workinghard:
Maybe we need to get back to talking baseball!
Or, sportsmanship.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=4629837
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Don't I know it Bum!
I got busted for yelling "FIRE!" in an empty theater...Sheesh!
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- "I'm old enough to see a LOT of things have been made illegal in my lifetime."
Don't I know it Bum!
I got busted for yelling "FIRE!" in an empty theater...Sheesh!
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Wow that's incredible Jimmy03!
Do the refs get paid? Or are they agents for the WWE?
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Wow that's incredible Jimmy03!
Do the refs get paid? Or are they agents for the WWE?
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quote:Originally posted by workinghard:
Maybe we need to get back to talking baseball!
I hope not. I find this topic to be absolutely fascinating and very informative. We, as a society, have a problem with drugs and I think the more information that is out there, the better.
Do ALL kids who go to college drink or take drugs? No. Do SOME kids? Yes.
I am scared to pieces for the kids who smoke, drink, get high, and dip. I am even more concerned for the parents of these kids and young adults. I'm sure that MANY parents of kids who participate in the above activities are besides themselves with the knowledge, and with fear, for what potentially can happen.
We've often said that there are many high school kids who read this message board. I think they need to know what potentially can happen to them as it relates to school or their team. I think that this thread should be Golden.
I would have to respectfully disagree play baseball.
(A) I don't think "young adults" are coming on here looking for information that pertains to marijuana. There are more parents looking for info here than players, but the players who do venture to this sight should have had it drilled into their heads from a lot younger age that nothing good comes from drugs.
(B) Some might even consider some of the info given in this thread to be somewhat controversial to say the least. When you have varying opinions on subjects such as this, it could be more confusing than enlighting for some younger players.
Having said all that, as the old adage goes, if it deters one person from trying drugs or alcohol, it's worth it.
Still think we need to go back to baseball talk!
(A) I don't think "young adults" are coming on here looking for information that pertains to marijuana. There are more parents looking for info here than players, but the players who do venture to this sight should have had it drilled into their heads from a lot younger age that nothing good comes from drugs.
(B) Some might even consider some of the info given in this thread to be somewhat controversial to say the least. When you have varying opinions on subjects such as this, it could be more confusing than enlighting for some younger players.
Having said all that, as the old adage goes, if it deters one person from trying drugs or alcohol, it's worth it.
Still think we need to go back to baseball talk!
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Ok, ok ...back to baseball!
Let's get started.
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Ok, ok ...back to baseball!
Let's get started.
- A big cat's mom
a coach who may or may not
a fan
a dad not quite 44
an octagonal dad
someone thrilled with this year's World Series result
a mouth without the vowels
a seed sower who takes long walks through the countryside
a soon to be Chris Christie constituent
an oldie, but a goodie from the Nutmeg state who has Spirit
a doll with a loose head
a funny mom with bluegrass stains
a dad who lives in the mistake on the lake, but patently denies it
a just man
a TV dinner from San Diego
someone who hit 04 dingers
a head of CaBBage
a monstor kid from the Empire State
a hot dog that plumps or claims to at least
a double nickel speed limit mom
one who plays by the rules
a peach of a baseball guy
a bopper
a Bo Diddley impersonator
a homer
a mom whose heart throbs for baseball
some big shot from Cedar Rapids
not an outfielder's dad
a bigger daddy who loves baked beans
a string of dots (BFF!)
an extra batter with secret sauce
a longshot
a chip off the old block floating on the lake
Jimmy Olsen; version one, two, and three
a lifeless, yet yapping dog
and another that wags
a big hitter who got it done in the 15th
a dad with two $10's and a load of wit along with a load of concrete
someone working diligently for a living
someone who plays baseball when not looking after some loon
someone who just watches from along Interstate 44
a skyhop who just happens to know how to fly and when necessary clean kitchens
and a bum who doesn't give you his rush
walk into a bar...
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And Here They are.... 
Hope I didn't forget anyone
Hope I didn't forget anyone
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From the SF Chronicle...
The traffic cop who stopped Tim Lincecum had him doing 74 mph in a 60 zone. That's the lowest radar-gun reading Lincecum has registered since the sixth grade.
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From the SF Chronicle...
The traffic cop who stopped Tim Lincecum had him doing 74 mph in a 60 zone. That's the lowest radar-gun reading Lincecum has registered since the sixth grade.
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quote:Originally posted by observer44:
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From the SF Chronicle...
The traffic cop who stopped Tim Lincecum had him doing 74 mph in a 60 zone. That's the lowest radar-gun reading Lincecum has registered since the sixth grade.
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Braking ball, down and out...