tpm uu must be kidding
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Based of the comment you made that it might not work for a kid trying to get noticed this is what I mean.....
If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.
Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.
Got ya, I agree. The lower velo guy has to be more accurate.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
tpm uu must be kidding
Kidding for what TR? You want to explain what it is you are trying to discredit me for.
I read somewhere once if you asked a ML pitcher how many balls landed where he intended them to actually go, he will tell you about 2%. I am talking average player, not the guys getting paid the big bucks to be more accurate.
You might want to ask a ML pitcher you might know if they would agree with that or not.
TR, is this the same thing like pitchers don't have to throw a bull pen at showcases because they might hurt themselves?
You never explained that one fully, if you do not allow that how do they get ready for a game?
How would they even know what pitches are working for them that day if they haven't practiced them? Do you just tell them to get out there and throw the ball?
You never explained that one fully, if you do not allow that how do they get ready for a game?
How would they even know what pitches are working for them that day if they haven't practiced them? Do you just tell them to get out there and throw the ball?
tpm what are nu talking about----if anything we warm pitchers up longer than needed
Looking back, it seemed like eldest son and I did it the Dominican way. When he was 7 and 8, he would drag me to the park on weekends and asked me to be the batter and he pitched to me as hard as he could. He beamed me countless of times until I had enough and said one more time we will go home. Still remembered the bruises below and above my knees when I could not skip fast enough. Since then I have retired as a batter, don't like the feeling having a ball screaming toward me with only a bat to defend myself, just play catch.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
tpm what are nu talking about----if anything we warm pitchers up longer than needed
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
one reason we do not do bull pensessions in our events is because the kids overthrow to impress the guns and this leads to arm injuries
Nov 19, 2012 3:53 PM
Pitching, Resting what's the best route to take?
So which is it?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Based of the comment you made that it might not work for a kid trying to get noticed this is what I mean.....
If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.
Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.
Got ya, I agree. The lower velo guy has to be more accurate.
TPM, I agree with this but I think at the pro level, anyway, velocity doesn't matter much until it's 95-96+. They're all good fastball hitters and can adjust to the timing of a fastball.
I guess what I'm saying is there is a "range" there where the fastball speed is immaterial, perhaps 88-94, and location is far more important. Once things ramp up, to 95-96+ location is less important. (Perhaps 93-94 is plus velocity at the lower levels.)
Since most pro/MLB pitchers, save closers, are not 95-96 on a consistent basis, the art of pitching is still a critical factor at the pro level. 3 solid pitches for starters, 2 for setup and closers. And for closers, velocity is critical.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
TPM, I agree with this but I think at the pro level, anyway, velocity doesn't matter much until it's 95-96+. They're all good fastball hitters and can adjust to the timing of a fastball.
Velocity may not matter until one reaches the big field, as I have noted I have seen more accurate guys stay behind while the higher velo guys move forward, especially for releivers, as we know starters need to be more diverse.
Also why hitters progress and some do not, they get to a point where they can't hit the FB.
It's been a good discussion.
We have gotten away from the OP's original inquires which is what young pithcers should work on, and what goals to work towards that will get them beyond HS, college.
young pitchers swhould work on location and movement
Movement on the fastball is critical with average velocity pitchers. The more velocity the less movement is required. The less velocity the more movement is required. Straight fastballs are the easiest pitch to hit unless the pitcher has unusual high velocity.
Some times we can only rely on our own experiences when there isn't a proven answer. This whole velocity thing vs. throwing with accuracy doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think I have ever seen a young kid who hasn't tested his arm strength. Every one has thrown an object as hard or far as they possibly can.
Those with the real good arms know they have it and want to display it. They need to work on accuracy, other areas of pitching, and continue to add velocity. Others without this "natural" ability to throw hard should focus on control and deception while also working at gaining velocity. But it is my belief that any kid with a strong arm is going to show it off at times. If not... That would be like someone capable of jumping 6 foot only jumping 4 foot when people are watching. Or someone capable of running a 6.5 in 60 yards taking it easy and running a 7.5 when people are timing him. Kids enjoy doing things they are good at and showing it to others.
So every young pitcher should work on BOTH accuracy and velocity. Why work on one when both are important? It's simply hitting the target while throwing it hard. Obviously it's easier to hit the target when you throw it slower. That is what BP pitchers do. Basically it boils down to... At what velocity can you throw strikes? Then at what velocity can you throw it to spots?
Movement is a different topic all together. IMO This is the last area to work on as a young pitcher. First of all the short distance to the plate in youth baseball is not enough room for much movement on the fastball. Though higher speed youth fastballs can give the illusion of movement.
Most people would say that Mariano Rivera's "Cutter" is one of the best single pitches of this era. It's not how much movement alone, but combined with the velocity and the lateness it appears to move it becomes very difficult to time and square up. Even the best 2 seam fastballs or cutters would have very little movement on flatter ground and youth pitching distances. Also, hand size and finger length play a part in movement. These things change a lot between 12 year olds and 18 year olds. And just like some pitchers have a natural ability to throw hard, some naturally throw with unexplainable movement. I'm not talking about breaking balls or change ups here.
Bottom line... Many have said it here... Young kids should work on two main things... Velocity AND accuracy. Not one... But both. Movement can come later.IMO
Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite. I know it seems important at the time, but for some the future will be much more important.
Hopefully this is directed more to the original question. But remember this... Baseball players have proven to be very successful by taking many different paths. Not sure if there really is any proven formula. If there is, I have not been able to figure it out.
Some times we can only rely on our own experiences when there isn't a proven answer. This whole velocity thing vs. throwing with accuracy doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think I have ever seen a young kid who hasn't tested his arm strength. Every one has thrown an object as hard or far as they possibly can.
Those with the real good arms know they have it and want to display it. They need to work on accuracy, other areas of pitching, and continue to add velocity. Others without this "natural" ability to throw hard should focus on control and deception while also working at gaining velocity. But it is my belief that any kid with a strong arm is going to show it off at times. If not... That would be like someone capable of jumping 6 foot only jumping 4 foot when people are watching. Or someone capable of running a 6.5 in 60 yards taking it easy and running a 7.5 when people are timing him. Kids enjoy doing things they are good at and showing it to others.
So every young pitcher should work on BOTH accuracy and velocity. Why work on one when both are important? It's simply hitting the target while throwing it hard. Obviously it's easier to hit the target when you throw it slower. That is what BP pitchers do. Basically it boils down to... At what velocity can you throw strikes? Then at what velocity can you throw it to spots?
Movement is a different topic all together. IMO This is the last area to work on as a young pitcher. First of all the short distance to the plate in youth baseball is not enough room for much movement on the fastball. Though higher speed youth fastballs can give the illusion of movement.
Most people would say that Mariano Rivera's "Cutter" is one of the best single pitches of this era. It's not how much movement alone, but combined with the velocity and the lateness it appears to move it becomes very difficult to time and square up. Even the best 2 seam fastballs or cutters would have very little movement on flatter ground and youth pitching distances. Also, hand size and finger length play a part in movement. These things change a lot between 12 year olds and 18 year olds. And just like some pitchers have a natural ability to throw hard, some naturally throw with unexplainable movement. I'm not talking about breaking balls or change ups here.
Bottom line... Many have said it here... Young kids should work on two main things... Velocity AND accuracy. Not one... But both. Movement can come later.IMO
Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite. I know it seems important at the time, but for some the future will be much more important.
Hopefully this is directed more to the original question. But remember this... Baseball players have proven to be very successful by taking many different paths. Not sure if there really is any proven formula. If there is, I have not been able to figure it out.
Awesome post!
We need a PG corner!!!!!
We need a PG corner!!!!!
quote:
Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite.
I cant really remember a time when winning games when son was 12 was not also part of the overall process to his development towards getting better, learning the right skills, etc..
Not really sure what you meant. Could you explain a bit better?
Not to speak for PG, but an example of my own was once in a league game, the coach had my son throw nothing but changeups for three innings. He just wanted him to get used to the feel and grip in a game situation. Work on location and movement. This was a 12U league. It helped his pitching a lot. It was in the teams best interest for him to throw something else. 
On a side note, I was glad the coach told me in advance. I would have had a heart attack thinking my son was hurt with the reduced velocity.
On a side note, I was glad the coach told me in advance. I would have had a heart attack thinking my son was hurt with the reduced velocity.
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:I cant really remember a time when winning games when son was 12 was not also part of the overall process to his development towards getting better, learning the right skills, etc…
Are you saying that: “was not also part of the overall process to his development towards getting better, learning the right skills, etc.” when he was in a game that was lost too?
It seems to me that simply playing the game is a part of that development whether the final result was a win or a loss. As far as I know, just before the 1st pitch of a game is thrown, there are very few times when the main goal of either team is to lose the game. Even the worst of teams want to win, even though they may not expect to win. The main issue it seems to me, is how “important” the win might be.
FI, if it’s the 4th game of the WS and one team is down 3 games to 0, its obvious that winning the game is much more important to that team as it is to the other one. Likewise, if it’s the 4th game of the HS season and it isn’t a league game, a “grudge” game, or a long time rivalry, the outcome of the game isn’t as “important” as if it were.
All games have a different value, and they should. A lopsided win against a very weak team isn’t nearly as fulfilling as winning a close game against a very strong team. In fact, a close loss to a very strong team may well be much more fulfilling than that lopsided win.
In the end, each game is really nothing more than another step in the journey, and all games shouldn’t be expected to be given equal weight. Just play the game, because whether or not your team wins, the sky won’t fall.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
The evidence is contained in the 40 MLB rounds and the velocities of the pitchers therein. My son was only drafted in the 31st round and he can throw 91-92 from the left side, with command BTW. So doubt there are more than a handful of righties who throw sub-90 that are ever drafted.
At the pro level, there are a TON of 94-95 guys that get pounded. (These guys have 5-6-7 ERA's but they continue to pitch and get worked with.) Only when you are 97-98 do you get away with mistakes at that level. Bottom line, you have to have minimum acceptable velocity and you still have to pitch.
91 mph righty a senior this year 36th round orioles..he really put on the mph's over the last two years..big kid projects well
Skylark,
Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.
I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.
Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.
I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Skylark,
Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.
I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.
I have seen this many, many times in youth baseball. There are numerous "stud" pitchers around in the early years that were so obviously overthrown, or WAY too many curveballs that are no longer playing because of arm issues.
When we went to Cooperstown, there was a kid from a nearby town that threw complete games in back to back to back days. His dad was a coach for the team and let it happen. In fact encouraged it. I don't even think he lasted until HS before his arm was done.
Conversely, my son only threw 10 innings all week with a 0.00 ERA. He was obviously the best pitcher on our team and we would have won much more with him on the mound, but we (myself and the head coach - I was the pitching coach) made the decision to not over throw him. We felt it was much more important that he stay healthy than for us to win at Cooperstown.
It happens all the time. Some people are ignorant of the dangers and some people know, but choose to ignore it. Many times those people tend to think that it will not happen to their kid. Somehow they are different.
I think perceptions are changing, but there are still those out there who will want to win at all costs. There is nothing wrong with wanting to win. It's the "at all costs" that's the problem.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Skylark,
Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.
I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.
Okay, I see what you are saying. We took our kid off a team when he was 11 because we thought the coaches pitched him too much. Our kid threw a lot back then, more than pretty much anyone else around. He did however gain the uncanny ability to throw any pitch he wanted for a strike. That came from throwing a lot at an early age under pressure I believe. So, it wasn't all bad.
Bum, Jr. barely even pitched until he was 13 years old. We had a very competitive NABF league in town when he was 11, 12 y.o. I can think of only two kids in that league that went onto college, one in the pros right now. A bunch of them, though, had arm surgery and ruined any chance they had.
I am so thankful Bum, Jr. was a skinny never-used player at that age.
I am so thankful Bum, Jr. was a skinny never-used player at that age.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
Bum, Jr. barely even pitched until he was 13 years old. We had a very competitive NABF league in town when he was 11, 12 y.o. I can think of only two kids in that league that went onto college, one in the pros right now. A bunch of them, though, had arm surgery and ruined any chance they had.
I am so thankful Bum, Jr. was a skinny never-used player at that age.
Bum, in no way is pitching at an early age related to not pitching in college because of injury. Lets not get in a debate over what age a pitcher should start throwing.
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
Bum, in no way is pitching at an early age related to not pitching in college because of injury. Lets not get in a debate over what age a pitcher should start throwing.
Quite the contrary, in fact. Scientific and historical evidence claim the exact opposite.
quote:Originally posted by J H:quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
Bum, in no way is pitching at an early age related to not pitching in college because of injury. Lets not get in a debate over what age a pitcher should start throwing.
Quite the contrary, in fact. Scientific and historical evidence claim the exact opposite.
I dont believe it. There are way too many other factors that come into play.
Prove it!
I have never heard of a doctor who diagnosed something such as a ucl rupture in a late teenager or college player to say- "yep, lil Johnny tore it seven years ago in a little league game and now his arm is shot".
Pretty much everyone and their dog knows by now that overuse "at any age" is the most harmful thing for a pitchers arm. For some it may be 40 pitches and for others it may be a 140. So many factors go into each individual case.
But merely because you are younger than someone else when you start pitching does in no way mean you will ruin your arm quicker. It would be interesting to find out when the average professional player started pitching when they were younger. I would tend to bet that the majority of professional pitchers began pitching at a little league age. I would also tend to bet that the majority of professional pitchers were no older than 11 or 12 when they started pitching.
Pretty much everyone and their dog knows by now that overuse "at any age" is the most harmful thing for a pitchers arm. For some it may be 40 pitches and for others it may be a 140. So many factors go into each individual case.
But merely because you are younger than someone else when you start pitching does in no way mean you will ruin your arm quicker. It would be interesting to find out when the average professional player started pitching when they were younger. I would tend to bet that the majority of professional pitchers began pitching at a little league age. I would also tend to bet that the majority of professional pitchers were no older than 11 or 12 when they started pitching.
13. Unless you count a few relief innings.
When did your professional pitcher start?
When did your professional pitcher start?
It is funny how those that put there sons out their early defend the position of too early not being a contributing factor to possible injury.
My son began at 8 with limited innings and allowed to throw a 2 and 4 seam only with a change up added after 10 and no cb in games until HS. If to do over again I think that we would keep him off the mound until late pre HS and not grade school. It was about winning but never about doing so at a price for injury. Pitching the few games a week they had was shared by all, almost everyone pitched on the team, no one person did more than others. One doesn't have to pitch early to learn what to throw in any count or situation, all that changes as the pitcher matures and eventually plays against better competition.
If you ask most mlb pitchers about it most will not allow their sons to pitch (or more innings) until 13 or 14 (and then maybe just start throwing off speed). Not until you or your son sustains injury does one fully understand the ramifications. How many ML pitchers have pitcher sons in the game? Anyone know?
Young pitchers should only pitch minimal in relief until 13 or 14 and take appropriate time off from baseball until HS. The bottom line is that it makes no difference what one does before they are in HS. Take it slow and don't worry about being the number one in your league. That is not going to get you a college scholarship.
After a players first season in proball, they are asked (or sometimes told) what they want to develop or what the organization wants you to use in games. The minor leagues is about development so why shouldn't youth bb be about that as well. In fact that is all it should be about. Young pitchers do not need 4-5 pitches in their arsenal, because you don't even need that when you get in the pros or college. I do believe this is big cause for injury, doing too much too young.
My son began at 8 with limited innings and allowed to throw a 2 and 4 seam only with a change up added after 10 and no cb in games until HS. If to do over again I think that we would keep him off the mound until late pre HS and not grade school. It was about winning but never about doing so at a price for injury. Pitching the few games a week they had was shared by all, almost everyone pitched on the team, no one person did more than others. One doesn't have to pitch early to learn what to throw in any count or situation, all that changes as the pitcher matures and eventually plays against better competition.
If you ask most mlb pitchers about it most will not allow their sons to pitch (or more innings) until 13 or 14 (and then maybe just start throwing off speed). Not until you or your son sustains injury does one fully understand the ramifications. How many ML pitchers have pitcher sons in the game? Anyone know?
Young pitchers should only pitch minimal in relief until 13 or 14 and take appropriate time off from baseball until HS. The bottom line is that it makes no difference what one does before they are in HS. Take it slow and don't worry about being the number one in your league. That is not going to get you a college scholarship.
After a players first season in proball, they are asked (or sometimes told) what they want to develop or what the organization wants you to use in games. The minor leagues is about development so why shouldn't youth bb be about that as well. In fact that is all it should be about. Young pitchers do not need 4-5 pitches in their arsenal, because you don't even need that when you get in the pros or college. I do believe this is big cause for injury, doing too much too young.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
…Young pitchers should only pitch minimal in relief until 13 or 14 and take appropriate time off from baseball until HS….
Its pretty amazing how similar that is to what Mike Marshall’s been saying for many years, and how much more accepted its become. Its good to know that common sense still has a foothold in the game, albeit a shaky one.
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
I dont believe it. There are way too many other factors that come into play.
Prove it!
I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years." Then I asked him, "do you think it had something to do with me pitching at a young age, or overuse in the recent past?" to which he responded, "both, definitely."
My doctor was some guy named James Andrews.
So, what's your source?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Movement on the fastball is critical with average velocity pitchers. The more velocity the less movement is required. The less velocity the more movement is required. Straight fastballs are the easiest pitch to hit unless the pitcher has unusual high velocity.
Some times we can only rely on our own experiences when there isn't a proven answer. This whole velocity thing vs. throwing with accuracy doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think I have ever seen a young kid who hasn't tested his arm strength. Every one has thrown an object as hard or far as they possibly can.
Those with the real good arms know they have it and want to display it. They need to work on accuracy, other areas of pitching, and continue to add velocity. Others without this "natural" ability to throw hard should focus on control and deception while also working at gaining velocity. But it is my belief that any kid with a strong arm is going to show it off at times. If not... That would be like someone capable of jumping 6 foot only jumping 4 foot when people are watching. Or someone capable of running a 6.5 in 60 yards taking it easy and running a 7.5 when people are timing him. Kids enjoy doing things they are good at and showing it to others.
So every young pitcher should work on BOTH accuracy and velocity. Why work on one when both are important? It's simply hitting the target while throwing it hard. Obviously it's easier to hit the target when you throw it slower. That is what BP pitchers do. Basically it boils down to... At what velocity can you throw strikes? Then at what velocity can you throw it to spots?
Movement is a different topic all together. IMO This is the last area to work on as a young pitcher. First of all the short distance to the plate in youth baseball is not enough room for much movement on the fastball. Though higher speed youth fastballs can give the illusion of movement.
Most people would say that Mariano Rivera's "Cutter" is one of the best single pitches of this era. It's not how much movement alone, but combined with the velocity and the lateness it appears to move it becomes very difficult to time and square up. Even the best 2 seam fastballs or cutters would have very little movement on flatter ground and youth pitching distances. Also, hand size and finger length play a part in movement. These things change a lot between 12 year olds and 18 year olds. And just like some pitchers have a natural ability to throw hard, some naturally throw with unexplainable movement. I'm not talking about breaking balls or change ups here.
Bottom line... Many have said it here... Young kids should work on two main things... Velocity AND accuracy. Not one... But both. Movement can come later.IMO
Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite. I know it seems important at the time, but for some the future will be much more important.
Hopefully this is directed more to the original question. But remember this... Baseball players have proven to be very successful by taking many different paths. Not sure if there really is any proven formula. If there is, I have not been able to figure it out.
PG this is exactly what I was looking for. If you do not mind I will use (steal) this. Plus 1 if I could.
My son did not start pitching till he was in Middle school. And then he was really the third or fourth pitcher. Never had the velocity of the other guys. He didn't start being a regular in the rotation or relief until he was a sophomore.
When he was younger I always wished he would have pitched more. But as the years moved on, things worked out.
We still see his coach from 6th grade now and again, and he always comments, "I didn't know what I had." Frankly now looking back I am glad he did not.
When he was younger I always wished he would have pitched more. But as the years moved on, things worked out.
We still see his coach from 6th grade now and again, and he always comments, "I didn't know what I had." Frankly now looking back I am glad he did not.
quote:If you do not mind I will use (steal) this.
I don't mind at all. Thanks
quote:Originally posted by J H:quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
I dont believe it. There are way too many other factors that come into play.
Prove it!
I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years." Then I asked him, "do you think it had something to do with me pitching at a young age, or overuse in the recent past?" to which he responded, "both, definitely."
My doctor was some guy named James Andrews.
So, what's your source?
You said you had scientific evidence. I dont care about opinion no matter who its from. Where is the study- the official scientific evidence in a peer reviewed journal? Find your article and we can debate it from there. As for your injury stemming from throwing at an early age? Since we are just throwing out opinions, I highly doubt you tore your UCL when you were 9 and it just never recovered but got worse through the years. From the papers I have read, it is almost impossible to tear your UCL when you are 9 from pitching. The required velocity just isnt there at that early of an age to cause the type of injury requring surgery. Now supposing your UCL was getting damaged through the years which more than likely wasnt until you were a few more years older than 9, it was more than likely due to "overuse" rather than just starting at an early age. You even stated that your doctor said it was from many years of overuse.
Do you honestly think you would have never ruptured your ucl if you had waited even a few more years? I highly doubt it.
Of the dozen or so pitchers I personally know who are pitching in college now or who did, pretty much all of them were good pitchers at the little league age level.
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
Of the dozen or so pitchers I personally know who are pitching in college now or who did, pretty much all of them were good pitchers at the little league age level.
Probably they were.
Being a LL pitcher doesn't guarantee you still will be pitching in HS or college.
I live in a state where the sun shines almost 365 days a year. That means a lot more games perhaps where you come from. As you are aware many pitchers from here get drafted and drafted high. Most of the pitchers in my sons grad class are not pitching anymore or have had surgery in some form of another that have set them back. And it's not always the arm.
The bottom line from what I see is that most pitchers break down at some point in their career. Hopefully it should be later than sooner. When the pitcher establishes himself as a prospect or reaches the higher levels. My opinion is that parents and players should do everything they can to make sure that injury doesn't occur at crucial times, that would be during the recruiting phase or in college, or in the early stages of milb before the player reaches the big field, this eliminates chance of making it by a huge margin unless the team has put a significant amount in your bank accout. Unfortunetly once you lose your spot it's tough to find your way back (ask Brian Wilson), no matter how good you are. For those that get to the pro level (and you have spoken about how your son desires to play there some day) it's a long climb up the ladder before you get to where you want to go for at least 90% of those that show the ability to get there, and injury doesn't make it any easier.
I am not here to argue but just to give advice on what I beleive should be a safe journey for young pitchers. Lots of good medical stuff going on but the bottom line is often injury ends careers.
I don't disagree that overuse is most likely a very big cause for injury. There is a huge risk involved in being a pitcher, the whole idea is to minimize that risk level to level.
JMO
Skylark,
I went through this with my 2015 when he was 13. Now he's a catcher.
First, I heartily agree with you that there are too many factors involved in elbow and shoulder injuries to point to a single factor, or even multiple known factors. All the studies I've ever read say the same thing. There simply aren't enough comprehensive studies yet.
However, I don't think Josh's doctor told him that he "tore" the ucl at 9, he probably surmised that the ligament was gradually damaged over many years. The ucl is not likely to tear until the growth plate has fused to the bone. I know several young pitchers who have torn that plate loose. One had surgery to screw it back in place, the others let it heal on it's own.
Now as far as most college pitchers starting at a young age, I'll give you an intentionally outrageous analogy. All of the elderly smokers that I know started smoking at a young age, and they're still going strong. :-)
I've compiled some reading material over the years. Let us know if this is what you're looking for.
http://www.hopkinsortho.org/ucl.html
"These stresses create microscopic tears in the ligament, which can add up to one big tear over time. (Figure 2) This gradual stress causes the ligament to stretch and become too long. Once it gets too long, it no longer holds the bones tightly enough during throwing activities."
http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/30/4/463.full.pdf
Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers
http://www.abe.msstate.edu/Too...eball%20Pitchers.pdf
Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers
"In the age group 9 to 14 years, a high pitch count and also breaking pitches (curveball, slider) were significantly associated with an increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. The study was statistically underpowered to show a significant risk of joint pain related to pitching mechanics. An increasing pitch count and cumulative count through the season was linearly associated with an increased risk of joint pain. It was therefore recommended that not only should pitch count be limited but season cumulative pitches as well."
http://www.littleleague.org/As...s/media/UNCStudy.pdf
The Learning Curve: Little League Seeks to Address Concerns, Answer Questions about Curveballs and Overuse
http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/33/11/1716.full.pdf
Biomechanics of the Shoulder in Youth Baseball Pitchers
http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/41203/router.asp
"LLE (Little League Elbow) may be used to describe a spectrum of disorders from a stress reaction to avulsion fractures of the medial epicondyle to osteochondritis dissecans of the capitellum and loose bodies. It occurs most often between 8 to 15 years of age."
"After physeal fusion, the ulnar collateral ligament and ulnar nerve are more likely to be injured."
I went through this with my 2015 when he was 13. Now he's a catcher.
First, I heartily agree with you that there are too many factors involved in elbow and shoulder injuries to point to a single factor, or even multiple known factors. All the studies I've ever read say the same thing. There simply aren't enough comprehensive studies yet.
However, I don't think Josh's doctor told him that he "tore" the ucl at 9, he probably surmised that the ligament was gradually damaged over many years. The ucl is not likely to tear until the growth plate has fused to the bone. I know several young pitchers who have torn that plate loose. One had surgery to screw it back in place, the others let it heal on it's own.
Now as far as most college pitchers starting at a young age, I'll give you an intentionally outrageous analogy. All of the elderly smokers that I know started smoking at a young age, and they're still going strong. :-)
I've compiled some reading material over the years. Let us know if this is what you're looking for.
http://www.hopkinsortho.org/ucl.html
"These stresses create microscopic tears in the ligament, which can add up to one big tear over time. (Figure 2) This gradual stress causes the ligament to stretch and become too long. Once it gets too long, it no longer holds the bones tightly enough during throwing activities."
http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/30/4/463.full.pdf
Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers
http://www.abe.msstate.edu/Too...eball%20Pitchers.pdf
Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers
"In the age group 9 to 14 years, a high pitch count and also breaking pitches (curveball, slider) were significantly associated with an increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. The study was statistically underpowered to show a significant risk of joint pain related to pitching mechanics. An increasing pitch count and cumulative count through the season was linearly associated with an increased risk of joint pain. It was therefore recommended that not only should pitch count be limited but season cumulative pitches as well."
http://www.littleleague.org/As...s/media/UNCStudy.pdf
The Learning Curve: Little League Seeks to Address Concerns, Answer Questions about Curveballs and Overuse
http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/33/11/1716.full.pdf
Biomechanics of the Shoulder in Youth Baseball Pitchers
http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/41203/router.asp
"LLE (Little League Elbow) may be used to describe a spectrum of disorders from a stress reaction to avulsion fractures of the medial epicondyle to osteochondritis dissecans of the capitellum and loose bodies. It occurs most often between 8 to 15 years of age."
"After physeal fusion, the ulnar collateral ligament and ulnar nerve are more likely to be injured."
quote:Originally posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Skylark,
I went through this with my 2015 when he was 13. Now he's a catcher.
First, I heartily agree with you that there are too many factors involved in elbow and shoulder injuries to point to a single factor, or even multiple known factors. All the studies I've ever read say the same thing. There simply aren't enough comprehensive studies yet.
However, I don't think Josh's doctor told him that he "tore" the ucl at 9, he probably surmised that the ligament was gradually damaged over many years. The ucl is not likely to tear until the growth plate has fused to the bone. I know several young pitchers who have torn that plate loose. One had surgery to screw it back in place, the others let it heal on it's own.
Now as far as most college pitchers starting at a young age, I'll give you an intentionally outrageous analogy. All of the elderly smokers that I know started smoking at a young age, and they're still going strong. :-)
I've compiled some reading material over the years. Let us know if this is what you're looking for.
http://www.hopkinsortho.org/ucl.html
"These stresses create microscopic tears in the ligament, which can add up to one big tear over time. (Figure 2) This gradual stress causes the ligament to stretch and become too long. Once it gets too long, it no longer holds the bones tightly enough during throwing activities."
http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/30/4/463.full.pdf
Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers
http://www.abe.msstate.edu/Too...eball%20Pitchers.pdf
Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers
"In the age group 9 to 14 years, a high pitch count and also breaking pitches (curveball, slider) were significantly associated with an increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. The study was statistically underpowered to show a significant risk of joint pain related to pitching mechanics. An increasing pitch count and cumulative count through the season was linearly associated with an increased risk of joint pain. It was therefore recommended that not only should pitch count be limited but season cumulative pitches as well."
http://www.littleleague.org/As...s/media/UNCStudy.pdf
The Learning Curve: Little League Seeks to Address Concerns, Answer Questions about Curveballs and Overuse
http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/33/11/1716.full.pdf
Biomechanics of the Shoulder in Youth Baseball Pitchers
http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/41203/router.asp
"LLE (Little League Elbow) may be used to describe a spectrum of disorders from a stress reaction to avulsion fractures of the medial epicondyle to osteochondritis dissecans of the capitellum and loose bodies. It occurs most often between 8 to 15 years of age."
"After physeal fusion, the ulnar collateral ligament and ulnar nerve are more likely to be injured."
They are all good articles and I also am aware of overuse injuries. The articles main evidence points to overuse which we all know as being the main factor in injury. There really is no direct link between when a pitcher starts throwing to injury. The only direct link we know of through the various studies such as ASMI's is pitchers who pitch year round who also pitch while fatigued or injured. This isnt an age related problem as to "when" pitchers start throwing but in actuality an "overuse" issue. Other factors such as improper or lack of conditioning, lack of proper rest, poor mechanics, poor diet and exercise also contribute to injury issues. Young pitchers who get proper rest, have good mechanics, not overused, etc, are in my opinion, much healthier when they do get older into high school and beyond. I hear it over and over again with parents of injured players or from older injured players themselves wishing they would have waited a few more years before they started pitching as if their "age" was somehow the main factor. I dont buy into it and I think it is an excuse for the true issues. How many of these injured pitchers pitched at some point through obvious pain? How many of them played more than 8 months out of the year? How many of them pitched in games while fatigued? How many of these injured pitchers were throwing over 80mph leading up to the injuries?
According to the studies, all of those things were the "main" factors leading up to surgery. Maybe they need to stress the real reasons such as I wish I hadnt allowed myself to pitch in that tournament with such severe pain or- I should have told coach to remove me in those games when I was so fatigued and tired. Or- I really shouldnt of played in all those expensive travel leagues year round just to hopefully get noticed.etc, etc, etc.
Back when my son was 11 I saw the writing plain as day and promptly put him on a different team that wasnt going to abuse his arm just for a win. Parents and players at "any age" regardless of how many seasons they have under their belt, need to be aware of the causes, symptoms, etc, that lead to injury. Those articles you posted are good articles. I HAVE read much of ASMI's work and believe most of their research. The trends they are finding are breaking down all of the previous myths we have heard in the past from myriads of parents and coaches. It all comes down to pretty much one word- "overuse". That can happen at any age. Injury has everything to do with overuse and not he age at when one starts throwing.
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
Of the dozen or so pitchers I personally know who are pitching in college now or who did, pretty much all of them were good pitchers at the little league age level.
My son threw 62 at age 12. So what.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
Of the dozen or so pitchers I personally know who are pitching in college now or who did, pretty much all of them were good pitchers at the little league age level.
My son threw 62 at age 12. So what.
Just sayin that just because a kid starts pitching at 9 doesnt mean it decreases his chances later on as you seem to have implied earlier.
Tell us about your son. How hard does he throw. How old.
Skylark,
Its put out in front of you and you still argue the point.
All factors can lead to injury age included.
Your son's situation a good example. Young pitcher maybe not biologically prepared for the overuse that coach subjected him to and your ignoramce to allow it at that age.
All are contributing factors to injury.
Its put out in front of you and you still argue the point.
All factors can lead to injury age included.
Your son's situation a good example. Young pitcher maybe not biologically prepared for the overuse that coach subjected him to and your ignoramce to allow it at that age.
All are contributing factors to injury.
Sometimes common sense prevails over scientific knowledge.
Not all children at 8,9,10 are biologically created equal. Lots of growth plate injuries out there and reported here the past few years.
So yes age absolutely can be a contributing factor, maybe not the only one but can contribute.
Those past LL where do they attend? Are they future pro prospects?. How many past World championship LL play the game at the pro level?
Not all children at 8,9,10 are biologically created equal. Lots of growth plate injuries out there and reported here the past few years.
So yes age absolutely can be a contributing factor, maybe not the only one but can contribute.
Those past LL where do they attend? Are they future pro prospects?. How many past World championship LL play the game at the pro level?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Skylark,
Its put out in front of you and you still argue the point.
All factors can lead to injury age included.
Your son's situation a good example. Young pitcher maybe not biologically prepared for the overuse that coach subjected him to and your ignoramce to allow it at that age.
All are contributing factors to injury.
I agree there are lots of contributing factors and that age does come into play in cases of overuse. My son started pitching at 9. Every year he was always one of the hardest throwing pitchers for his age. Each year as he increases in velocity we watch it all the more closely because injury is most likely to occur the harder they throw. Not very many kids need surgery who throw below 75mph. My son has always had a 4 month break from pitching every year, some years more than that. I am confident to this point that we have done a good job of protecting his arm and giving him plenty of rest opportunities. Some seem to strongly argue that just because one starts pitching earlier they are at higher risk for injury when they get to high school and beyond. Take my son for example- Why should this theory hold true? Its as if people think that at this point his arm is already injured or weakened dramatically. After all, that is the only way the theory would hold true. But, their theory only hods true with kids who are abused and overused year in, year out. So, its not an age thing at all but rather how much they have been overused and beaten up year after year without proper rest and recovery and proper conditioning.
Skylark,
If your point is that pitching at a young age (8-12?) is not inherently more injurious than at older ages, I don’t know of any medical literature that supports or refutes that opinion. However, the logical conclusion about starting at a young age is that the child will throw more pitches over the span of his pre-adult years, which will typically contribute to overuse. In an ideal situation, where the parent understands and successfully manages all of the risk factors (and I actually know someone currently doing this with his 10 year old), I do believe that a child can begin pitching at a young age with very little risk of injury. However, I’m afraid that scenario is extremely rare, and that isn’t going to work for the masses.
I was unacquainted with competitive baseball when my 2015 started playing t-ball. I have a laundry list of things I would have done differently. Ironically, he probably would have played even more baseball had I known what I was doing. I agree with you about overuse, and I’m convinced that (along with inadequate recovery time) was the primary factor in my son’s elbow issues. Flawed mechanics and conditioning played a part, but I think we could have avoided his injury if he simply threw less. Others might reason that proper training would have corrected the problem, but I just don’t find that to be a realistic option for the sport in general because of the expertise and level of commitment required.
Also, I can’t sight a study but my experience tells me that the damage from overuse varies greatly from child to child (back to your college pitchers). I would go as far as to say that even the LL pitch count limits are too lax for some kids. I would love to see some kind of baseline valgus stress test in the future, with regular follow-up testing. Anything that would give parents some object feedback about their child's arm health.
If your point is that pitching at a young age (8-12?) is not inherently more injurious than at older ages, I don’t know of any medical literature that supports or refutes that opinion. However, the logical conclusion about starting at a young age is that the child will throw more pitches over the span of his pre-adult years, which will typically contribute to overuse. In an ideal situation, where the parent understands and successfully manages all of the risk factors (and I actually know someone currently doing this with his 10 year old), I do believe that a child can begin pitching at a young age with very little risk of injury. However, I’m afraid that scenario is extremely rare, and that isn’t going to work for the masses.
I was unacquainted with competitive baseball when my 2015 started playing t-ball. I have a laundry list of things I would have done differently. Ironically, he probably would have played even more baseball had I known what I was doing. I agree with you about overuse, and I’m convinced that (along with inadequate recovery time) was the primary factor in my son’s elbow issues. Flawed mechanics and conditioning played a part, but I think we could have avoided his injury if he simply threw less. Others might reason that proper training would have corrected the problem, but I just don’t find that to be a realistic option for the sport in general because of the expertise and level of commitment required.
Also, I can’t sight a study but my experience tells me that the damage from overuse varies greatly from child to child (back to your college pitchers). I would go as far as to say that even the LL pitch count limits are too lax for some kids. I would love to see some kind of baseline valgus stress test in the future, with regular follow-up testing. Anything that would give parents some object feedback about their child's arm health.
littleleaguers should worry about location ie control and not velocity
quote:My son threw 62 at age 12. So what.
Two things here. First, 62 at age 12 is pretty darn good. Second, you knew his velocity at age 12?
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:…But, their theory only hods true with kids who are abused and overused year in, year out. So, its not an age thing at all but rather how much they have been overused and beaten up year after year without proper rest and recovery and proper conditioning.
Here are a couple flaws in your argument.
1) Every kid is different.
2) There is no generally accepted definition of what “overused” is.
The main problem is the lack of empirical evidence. You have your story, I have mine, and millions of others have theirs, but there’s darn little anyone could scientifically sift through to try to come up with answers. The answer is simple and wouldn’t require anyone changing anything they do. When a kid starts to pitch, keep track of the date and the number of pitches. That’s all it would take to create a database that could be studied by anyone who took the time to do it.
I’ve gone on and on about that for many years, but it seems like people won’t do it because they’re afraid of what will show up. As long as there aren’t any facts to interpret, every opinion is as valid as every other one, and that ends up as justification for continuing along the same lines.
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
The answer is simple and wouldn’t require anyone changing anything they do. When a kid starts to pitch, keep track of the date and the number of pitches. That’s all it would take to create a database that could be studied by anyone who took the time to do it.
I’ve gone on and on about that for many years, but it seems like people won’t do it because they’re afraid of what will show up. As long as there aren’t any facts to interpret, every opinion is as valid as every other one, and that ends up as justification for continuing along the same lines.
Right, Stats. Unwillingness to face the truth must be the reason no one is undertaking to train every coach and every parent of each of the half million or so kids who start playing ball each year to document every pitch they throw, monitor their development as pitchers, track their medical histories, factor in all the other variables that motivate baseball players to stop playing, compel compliance, and standardize the collection effort across every Little League, Pony, Dixie, Babe Ruth, scholastic, travel, legion, and other baseball organization. I mean, your answer is so "simple," it's just amazing nobody hasn't just set aside a few hours one winter afternoon and got this little project off the ground. Yeah, it's gotta be fear of the answers. Otherwise it would be done already. Nothing else makes sense.
Great discussion here, I could learn from you all of your experiences. Looking back, all those wins and accolades were immaterial in LL, and parents should pay extra attentions to arm care as the little kids would not know the consequences at such a young age. The kids usually try to please the adults and as a result would play hurt when told to, they are too young to speak up. Still remember when son came to me about pain in the elbow when he was young. He then showed me if he throw when this other arm slot, it would not hurt, etc.. I let him pitch another game or two but the problem was still there. So I read as much as I could and sprung into action. No more pitching, had x-ray, PT, and MRI at the end just to make sure everything was ok. Then rest for another 6 months. Each time when son was asked to join a travel team, I hesitated. I was told many times that son should join the best competitive tournaments as much as possible but I still hesitated. Looking back, I am glad that I did hesitated and son did not join any of the travel teams. My take of the debate is that the younger the kid start pitching, the more closely the parents need to pay attention to overuse. Take every pain and ache that the kid is complaining seriously. Don't tell them to rub should sand/mud/dust on the arms and everything will be ok - it doesn't work scientifically.
quote:Originally posted by bballdad2016:quote:My son threw 62 at age 12. So what.
Two things here. First, 62 at age 12 is pretty darn good. Second, you knew his velocity at age 12?
Coach of his first travel team had a radar gun on all the kids. I know, in retrospect it seems dumb.
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
Right, Stats. Unwillingness to face the truth must be the reason no one is undertaking to train every coach and every parent of each of the half million or so kids who start playing ball each year to document every pitch they throw, monitor their development as pitchers, track their medical histories, factor in all the other variables that motivate baseball players to stop playing, compel compliance, and standardize the collection effort across every Little League, Pony, Dixie, Babe Ruth, scholastic, travel, legion, and other baseball organization. I mean, your answer is so "simple," it's just amazing nobody hasn't just set aside a few hours one winter afternoon and got this little project off the ground. Yeah, it's gotta be fear of the answers. Otherwise it would be done already. Nothing else makes sense.
LMAO, Swampboy.
really
/
/
We have to keep in mind that if there is 12 year old baseball, there will be 12 year olds pitching.
What would be very unusual at that age is if a kid was a pitcher only. Usually the pitcher is one of the better players as well. This in itself can create problems if the leadership isn't aware. Especially when it comes to bringing a new pitcher in from a position without proper warm up. The jury is still out on throwing curveballs, though I personally wouldn't allow them at that age. However, there's no doubt that the harder someone throws the more risk there is of injury. (at any age)
The reward - you have been blessed with the ability to throw gas.
The risk - because of this gift you're more likely to be injured.
Of course, in most cases they can fix injuries these days, But they can't fix a weak arm.
I think learning to pitch at a young age can be a good thing. But learning how to pitch is more important than winning at all cost. My question is... how many 12 year old coaches understand pitching and pitching mechanics. Truth is that it might be more important at that age than older ages. Forming good habits at a young age can be very beneficial. Bad habits at that age are hard to break and can cause damage before any real development takes place.
Also there is nothing wrong with winning as long as it is done the right way and for the right reasons. Often people want to win the 12 year old game so bad, they are willing to risk the 12 year old's future. Actually this happens at older ages too. It even happens in college at times.
I applaud all those coaches out there that understand.
What would be very unusual at that age is if a kid was a pitcher only. Usually the pitcher is one of the better players as well. This in itself can create problems if the leadership isn't aware. Especially when it comes to bringing a new pitcher in from a position without proper warm up. The jury is still out on throwing curveballs, though I personally wouldn't allow them at that age. However, there's no doubt that the harder someone throws the more risk there is of injury. (at any age)
The reward - you have been blessed with the ability to throw gas.
The risk - because of this gift you're more likely to be injured.
Of course, in most cases they can fix injuries these days, But they can't fix a weak arm.
I think learning to pitch at a young age can be a good thing. But learning how to pitch is more important than winning at all cost. My question is... how many 12 year old coaches understand pitching and pitching mechanics. Truth is that it might be more important at that age than older ages. Forming good habits at a young age can be very beneficial. Bad habits at that age are hard to break and can cause damage before any real development takes place.
Also there is nothing wrong with winning as long as it is done the right way and for the right reasons. Often people want to win the 12 year old game so bad, they are willing to risk the 12 year old's future. Actually this happens at older ages too. It even happens in college at times.
I applaud all those coaches out there that understand.
Son threw hard at a young age. He threw harder in middle school and harder in HS and harder in college and much harder now.
I would like to point out that I know just as many soft tossers who have had injuries as harder throwers have. When you pitch there is ALWAYS risks involved.
My opinion as a parent whose son is still in the game at 27 is that you minimize the risks involved and the heck with all the scientific stuff because all bodies are different and all circumstances are different as well.
Once again PG offers great sound advice and good stuff from MidAtlanticDad. I too have a laundry list of things we should have not done, and to do over again it wouldn't be the same. We were ever so careful, no year round pitching, limited innings, no cb before certain age, sliders, good mechanics, loose arm, great college experience with one of the best college pc in the country who didn't abuse, showcases, yet injury occurred. Did we do anything wrong, I don't think so, but beginning at age 8,9 we would change in a heartbeat.
Skylark,
You are aware that 9 year olds are having surgery to repair injuries and many youth players are having to shut down the game due to growth plate injuries. Not saying all of those are pitchers. If they were, could an injury have been avoided if the player didn't begin pitching until maybe 12,13,14? FYI, pitching is a cr ap shoot, no matter what you feel you may have done right, you may not know that until your son is 18, or 25.
Swampboy, thanks for the chuckle.
I would like to point out that I know just as many soft tossers who have had injuries as harder throwers have. When you pitch there is ALWAYS risks involved.
My opinion as a parent whose son is still in the game at 27 is that you minimize the risks involved and the heck with all the scientific stuff because all bodies are different and all circumstances are different as well.
Once again PG offers great sound advice and good stuff from MidAtlanticDad. I too have a laundry list of things we should have not done, and to do over again it wouldn't be the same. We were ever so careful, no year round pitching, limited innings, no cb before certain age, sliders, good mechanics, loose arm, great college experience with one of the best college pc in the country who didn't abuse, showcases, yet injury occurred. Did we do anything wrong, I don't think so, but beginning at age 8,9 we would change in a heartbeat.
Skylark,
You are aware that 9 year olds are having surgery to repair injuries and many youth players are having to shut down the game due to growth plate injuries. Not saying all of those are pitchers. If they were, could an injury have been avoided if the player didn't begin pitching until maybe 12,13,14? FYI, pitching is a cr ap shoot, no matter what you feel you may have done right, you may not know that until your son is 18, or 25.
Swampboy, thanks for the chuckle.
quote:I think learning to pitch at a young age can be a good thing. But learning how to pitch is more important than winning at all cost. My question is... how many 12 year old coaches understand pitching and pitching mechanics. Truth is that it might be more important at that age than older ages. Forming good habits at a young age can be very beneficial. Bad habits at that age are hard to break and can cause damage before any real development takes place.
Also there is nothing wrong with winning as long as it is done the right way and for the right reasons. Often people want to win the 12 year old game so bad, they are willing to risk the 12 year old's future. Actually this happens at older ages too. It even happens in college at times.
I had a story on that. There was a kid, a good friend of my son, that is fairly big and his family(including grandparents) is a big into baseball. At the end of a LL season, I kind of saying to them that he would dominate next year when he grow even bigger. The grandpa said he would be training off season to get better. Next year, the kid came back and was throwing sub-marine. I was horrified but I gently asked where he had learned that. His parents said he was taking lessons from the pro and the pro recommended sub-marine so he could be more effective. It's probably a case of trying to win at all cost, but the sad part was that as the season went on, he became less and less effective. He barely pitched in the all star games. That is probably why some said being a stud at a young age would not translate to being one in HS/college. If done properly, it could translate to one, again depending on the growth rate, genes and working hard.
Swampboy,
You can believe what you like. I assure you I’ve heard the same claptrap and many others over and over. I said nothing about training coaches, although it would be a good thing. I also said nothing about monitoring their development, although that too would also be a great benefit. And too, I said nothing about tracking medical histories, although that would likely be the most valuable thing of all.
You can make fun of it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a simple thing that would be a great benefit. So why wouldn’t you want to see it happen? Is it too complicated for you or is it too hard? Or perhaps is because you like having your opinion valued the same as someone like Dr. Andrews. After all, as long as there’s no proof he’s right, it makes you an expert too.
You can believe what you like. I assure you I’ve heard the same claptrap and many others over and over. I said nothing about training coaches, although it would be a good thing. I also said nothing about monitoring their development, although that too would also be a great benefit. And too, I said nothing about tracking medical histories, although that would likely be the most valuable thing of all.
You can make fun of it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a simple thing that would be a great benefit. So why wouldn’t you want to see it happen? Is it too complicated for you or is it too hard? Or perhaps is because you like having your opinion valued the same as someone like Dr. Andrews. After all, as long as there’s no proof he’s right, it makes you an expert too.
Stats,
You totally missed my point.
I was teasing you for making:
a) a ridiculous assertion: namely, that it would simple to compile a useful database on pitch counts; and
b) a slander on the motives of everyone who isn't taking your advice to stop the world and fetch you some numbers to play with.
As far as all that stuff you say you didn't mention: yeah, that's sort of my point. A database full of pitch count info is useless without all that other stuff you need to identify the independent variables. That's why your simple solution is unworkable. It has nothing to do with unwillingness to face the truth and everything about understanding how hard it would be to act on your advice.
For now, I think the best we can do in the absence of large, controlled longitudinal studies that regress out the other variables is about what Dr. Andrews seems to advocate, which is prudent caution based on the qualified observations and associations he can make, and what PGStaff advocates, which is more attention to development over competition in the early years.
I will grant you one important point. You are correct that there is a vocal minority that doesn't want to face the truth. There are people here who protest that because we can't double-blind prove that x number of pitches or curve balls before y years of age will cause a catastrophic injury in this child this weekend we should just ignore all the tentative insights people like Dr. Andrews have carefully drawn, resist pitch limits for youth pitchers, and generally let prepubescent boys throw as many curves as it takes to win a trophy now. Often, the coaches who most stridently protest that we can't know the limit for any one pitcher are also the ones who insist they do know their ace has a "rubber arm" and is immune from the risks. I am not one of those people.
I'm in the camp that says pitching carries inherent risks that are generally understood but unknown for individual pitchers; we should apply the general knowledge that is available and manage that risk cautiously for all pitchers and very cautiously for young and immature pitchers. As pitchers get older, they can participate more actively in deciding how to manage their individual risk in the context of their goals.
You totally missed my point.
I was teasing you for making:
a) a ridiculous assertion: namely, that it would simple to compile a useful database on pitch counts; and
b) a slander on the motives of everyone who isn't taking your advice to stop the world and fetch you some numbers to play with.
As far as all that stuff you say you didn't mention: yeah, that's sort of my point. A database full of pitch count info is useless without all that other stuff you need to identify the independent variables. That's why your simple solution is unworkable. It has nothing to do with unwillingness to face the truth and everything about understanding how hard it would be to act on your advice.
For now, I think the best we can do in the absence of large, controlled longitudinal studies that regress out the other variables is about what Dr. Andrews seems to advocate, which is prudent caution based on the qualified observations and associations he can make, and what PGStaff advocates, which is more attention to development over competition in the early years.
I will grant you one important point. You are correct that there is a vocal minority that doesn't want to face the truth. There are people here who protest that because we can't double-blind prove that x number of pitches or curve balls before y years of age will cause a catastrophic injury in this child this weekend we should just ignore all the tentative insights people like Dr. Andrews have carefully drawn, resist pitch limits for youth pitchers, and generally let prepubescent boys throw as many curves as it takes to win a trophy now. Often, the coaches who most stridently protest that we can't know the limit for any one pitcher are also the ones who insist they do know their ace has a "rubber arm" and is immune from the risks. I am not one of those people.
I'm in the camp that says pitching carries inherent risks that are generally understood but unknown for individual pitchers; we should apply the general knowledge that is available and manage that risk cautiously for all pitchers and very cautiously for young and immature pitchers. As pitchers get older, they can participate more actively in deciding how to manage their individual risk in the context of their goals.
quote:Originally posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Skylark,
If your point is that pitching at a young age (8-12?) is not inherently more injurious than at older ages, I don’t know of any medical literature that supports or refutes that opinion. However, the logical conclusion about starting at a young age is that the child will throw more pitches over the span of his pre-adult years, which will typically contribute to overuse. In an ideal situation, where the parent understands and successfully manages all of the risk factors (and I actually know someone currently doing this with his 10 year old), I do believe that a child can begin pitching at a young age with very little risk of injury. However, I’m afraid that scenario is extremely rare, and that isn’t going to work for the masses.
I was unacquainted with competitive baseball when my 2015 started playing t-ball. I have a laundry list of things I would have done differently. Ironically, he probably would have played even more baseball had I known what I was doing. I agree with you about overuse, and I’m convinced that (along with inadequate recovery time) was the primary factor in my son’s elbow issues. Flawed mechanics and conditioning played a part, but I think we could have avoided his injury if he simply threw less. Others might reason that proper training would have corrected the problem, but I just don’t find that to be a realistic option for the sport in general because of the expertise and level of commitment required.
Also, I can’t sight a study but my experience tells me that the damage from overuse varies greatly from child to child (back to your college pitchers). I would go as far as to say that even the LL pitch count limits are too lax for some kids. I would love to see some kind of baseline valgus stress test in the future, with regular follow-up testing. Anything that would give parents some object feedback about their child's arm health.
My personal opinion is that youth age pitchers who train right, are not overused, and throw at a healthy level are more prepared, more conditioned and more injury resistant when they do get older. If anyone knows me, they know I am about te most **** person around when it comes to proper conditioning and protecting and educating pitchers. They would also know that I advocate a lot of throwing and less of actual pitching. My firm belief is that pitchers are most susceptible to incurring injury when pitching in games especially with short rest periods in between outings. I would love to see more coaches adopt shorter pit c h counts for pitchers and substitute in its place more short practice bullpens and off days for general throwing and conditioning drills.
I long for the day when they will have some type of portable MRI machine or something that could cheaply and quickly look at the integrity of muscles, ligaments, bones and tendons right there in the dugout/ clubhouse. You could pretty much eliminate over 90% of pitching injuries at the college and pro level.
Each kid is different, but coaches and often times- parents do push their kids to pitch when the injury factors are greatly multiplied. You see this especially if lil Johnny is talented and plays in multiple leagues, plays year round and also attends lots of showcases and camps. Kids need to be taught from an early age that they themselves are ultimately in control and that they need to have a certain level of knowledge and fear instilled in them to know when the risk factors begin to dramatically multiply and that they need to shut the arm down. There are days now when my son will flat out tell the coach he isnt throwing or even take himself out of games. They completely respect him for that.
What is meant by proper training as a youth pitcher?
Do you still advocate after pitching that a young pitcher go home and throw more against the wall?
You seem to have made a 360 degree turn since you came here many years ago. If I recall you also felt it was ok to pitch on consecutive days.
Do you still advocate after pitching that a young pitcher go home and throw more against the wall?
You seem to have made a 360 degree turn since you came here many years ago. If I recall you also felt it was ok to pitch on consecutive days.
A 12 y.o. pitcher with clean mechanics is almost unheard of. I didn't know of any. So how does he throw "hard" without doing damage?
I've got video of Bum, Jr. at that age and his mechanics were horrific. Totally opening up and torquing his shoulder. Thank goodness he didn't pitch much then or throw particularly hard.
Therein the problem. Someone's got to pitch in youth ball. If your son is 12, throwing hard, and you're projecting him to throw hard at 22 just know it's probably not going to happen without a very sharp knife.
I've got video of Bum, Jr. at that age and his mechanics were horrific. Totally opening up and torquing his shoulder. Thank goodness he didn't pitch much then or throw particularly hard.
Therein the problem. Someone's got to pitch in youth ball. If your son is 12, throwing hard, and you're projecting him to throw hard at 22 just know it's probably not going to happen without a very sharp knife.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
A 12 y.o. pitcher with clean mechanics is almost unheard of. I didn't know of any. So how does he throw "hard" without doing damage?
I've got video of Bum, Jr. at that age and his mechanics were horrific. Totally opening up and torquing his shoulder. Thank goodness he didn't pitch much then or throw particularly hard.
Therein the problem. Someone's got to pitch in youth ball. If your son is 12, throwing hard, and you're projecting him to throw hard at 22 just know it's probably not going to happen without a very sharp knife.
Clean mechanics can be described as pitching without pain.
There have been myriads of pitchers who threw hard at 12 and were also still pitching at 22 who only needed a knife to cut their steak. You certainly have to show proof that that youth pitchers are actually damaging their arms just because they throw at an early age.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
What is meant by proper training as a youth pitcher?
Do you still advocate after pitching that a young pitcher go home and throw more against the wall?
You seem to have made a 360 degree turn since you came here many years ago. If I recall you also felt it was ok to pitch on consecutive days.
Certainly your kidding? You train youth at their level. Its not much different to speak about teaching them how to hit, how to steal bases, how to pick off runners, etc. Training at the youth level is about teaching them the proper basic mechanics coupled with strength training for their age. Its really a no-brainer.
If you had been paying attention I did mention that son did throw quite a lot when he was younger and that each consecutive year I clamped down more and more about how much he did pitch. The main factor here is that he was never pitching with elbow or shoulder pain. He still throws a lot which is wholly different than " pitching".
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
Clean mechanics can be described as pitching without pain.
So you're saying that every single pitcher that hurts their arm has bad mechanics, and every single pitcher that doesn't hurt their arm has clean mechanics?
I pitched from age 9 to age 21 without arm pain. Never hurt. Always fresh. Always felt good.
Now, I have a scar.
Does that mean that during all those innings I threw from 9-21 I had perfect mechanics, and when I hurt my arm my mechanics turned bad?
Dr. Andrews disagrees with you. He wants pitch count limitations on youth pitchers and lays out guidelines for days of rest. He understands that it is dangerous for youth pitchers to pitch and he understands that pitching as a youth can cause damage going into the future. You ask for evidence? Watch the Little League World Series every year on ESPN. They have rules about this. Dr. Andrews created them.
So here's how I'm interpreting this thus far: you say there's no evidence that pitching a lot as a youth causes injury over the years. Dr. Andrews says you're wrong. You say that if a kid's arm isn't bothering him when he's pitching then he's fine and he won't get hurt in the future. My scar says you're wrong.
Any other personal beliefs and theories that you have that you'd like to share? Evidence and research isn't necessary, since you've never cited anything to prove your opinions in the past. You just try to buck the trend of the scientific community and then proceed to belittle other posters like myself, Bum and TPM when we argue your point with facts.
I will give you one brownie point, however. I'm impressed that it took you a whole year since you got suspended posting under a different name to restart your outlandish statements. I thought maybe you'd learned and listened throughout that year, and was pleased to see some beneficial contribution to the boards.
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
Stats,
You totally missed my point.
I was teasing you for making:
a) a ridiculous assertion: namely, that it would simple to compile a useful database on pitch counts; and
Obviously you don’t know a great deal about data bases. I assure you, I could create such a database in less than 1 minute, and I’m not in the business any longer. The trick isn’t in creating the data base, finding the space to store it, or even in accessing it for updates, and the trick isn’t even getting people to use it. What most people don’t get is, the chances their kid’s pitch counts and dates are already in one database or another, is probably well over 90% right now. The trick is getting everyone to use the same database.
quote:b) a slander on the motives of everyone who isn't taking your advice to stop the world and fetch you some numbers to play with.
What is so wrong with wanting facts? Who could it possibly hurt other than those who are endangering pitchers?
quote:As far as all that stuff you say you didn't mention: yeah, that's sort of my point. A database full of pitch count info is useless without all that other stuff you need to identify the independent variables. That's why your simple solution is unworkable. It has nothing to do with unwillingness to face the truth and everything about understanding how hard it would be to act on your advice.
Why would it be useless? If anything, it would put to rest all the individual anecdotal evidence. For all I know, there is no abuse/overuse problem in today’s amateur game, and for all you know the abuse/overuse is widespread and growing. Why wouldn’t you want to know? I’m sure willing to admit I’ve been wrong all these years, so why aren’t you?
quote:For now, I think the best we can do in the absence of large, controlled longitudinal studies that regress out the other variables is about what Dr. Andrews seems to advocate, which is prudent caution based on the qualified observations and associations he can make, and what PGStaff advocates, which is more attention to development over competition in the early years.
I’ve never said anything different, other than to advocate for those studies.
quote:I will grant you one important point. You are correct that there is a vocal minority that doesn't want to face the truth. There are people here who protest that because we can't double-blind prove that x number of pitches or curve balls before y years of age will cause a catastrophic injury in this child this weekend we should just ignore all the tentative insights people like Dr. Andrews have carefully drawn, resist pitch limits for youth pitchers, and generally let prepubescent boys throw as many curves as it takes to win a trophy now. Often, the coaches who most stridently protest that we can't know the limit for any one pitcher are also the ones who insist they do know their ace has a "rubber arm" and is immune from the risks. I am not one of those people.
Again, something I’ve never disagreed with.
quote:I'm in the camp that says pitching carries inherent risks that are generally understood but unknown for individual pitchers; we should apply the general knowledge that is available and manage that risk cautiously for all pitchers and very cautiously for young and immature pitchers. As pitchers get older, they can participate more actively in deciding how to manage their individual risk in the context of their goals.
And there’s where it all falls apart. “Generally understood” means not everyone understands those risks. The problem is, does it mean 95% know or 95% don’t know? That’s why pitch counts gained such a strong foothold. All knowledge means is, having understanding. You’ll notice I never suggested any limits, but rather simply just getting the information so people much smarter than I would be able to draw conclusions based on fact rather than perception.
Interesting article, which I have cited before:
The New York Times, October 28, 2011
Sports Medicine Said to Overuse M.R.I.’s
By GINA KOLATA
Dr. James Andrews, a widely known sports medicine orthopedist in Gulf Breeze, Fla., wanted to test his suspicion that M.R.I.’s, the scans given to almost every injured athlete or casual exerciser, might be a bit misleading. So he scanned the shoulders of 31 perfectly healthy professional baseball pitchers.
The pitchers were not injured and had no pain. But the M.R.I.’s found abnormal shoulder cartilage in 90 percent of them and abnormal rotator cuff tendons in 87 percent. “If you want an excuse to operate on a pitcher’s throwing shoulder, just get an M.R.I.,” Dr. Andrews says.
He and other eminent sports medicine specialists are taking a stand against what they see as the vast overuse of magnetic resonance imaging in their specialty.
M.R.I.’s can be invaluable in certain situations — finding serious problems like tumors or helping distinguish between competing diagnoses that fit a patient’s history and symptoms. They also can make money for doctors who own their own machines. And they can please sports medicine patients, who often expect a scan.
But scans are easily misinterpreted and can result in misdiagnoses leading to unnecessary or even harmful treatments.
For example, said Dr. Bruce Sangeorzan, professor and vice chairman of the department of orthopedics and sports medicine at the University of Washington, if a healthy, uninjured person goes out for a run, a scan afterward will show fluid in the knee bone. It is inconsequential. But in an injured person, fluid can be a sign of a bone that is stressed or even has a crack and is trying to heal.
“An M.R.I. is unlike any other imaging tool we use,” Dr. Sangeorzan said. “It is a very sensitive tool, but it is not very specific. That’s the problem.” And scans almost always find something abnormal, although most abnormalities are of no consequence.
“It is very rare for an M.R.I. to come back with the words ‘normal study,’ “ said Dr. Christopher DiGiovanni, a professor of orthopedics and a sports medicine specialist at Brown University. “I can’t tell you the last time I’ve seen it.”
In sports medicine, where injuries are typically torn muscles or tendons or narrow cracks in bones, specialists like Dr. Andrews and Dr. DiGiovanni say M.R.I.’s often are not needed…
Here's a link to the entire article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10....html?pagewanted=all
The New York Times, October 28, 2011
Sports Medicine Said to Overuse M.R.I.’s
By GINA KOLATA
Dr. James Andrews, a widely known sports medicine orthopedist in Gulf Breeze, Fla., wanted to test his suspicion that M.R.I.’s, the scans given to almost every injured athlete or casual exerciser, might be a bit misleading. So he scanned the shoulders of 31 perfectly healthy professional baseball pitchers.
The pitchers were not injured and had no pain. But the M.R.I.’s found abnormal shoulder cartilage in 90 percent of them and abnormal rotator cuff tendons in 87 percent. “If you want an excuse to operate on a pitcher’s throwing shoulder, just get an M.R.I.,” Dr. Andrews says.
He and other eminent sports medicine specialists are taking a stand against what they see as the vast overuse of magnetic resonance imaging in their specialty.
M.R.I.’s can be invaluable in certain situations — finding serious problems like tumors or helping distinguish between competing diagnoses that fit a patient’s history and symptoms. They also can make money for doctors who own their own machines. And they can please sports medicine patients, who often expect a scan.
But scans are easily misinterpreted and can result in misdiagnoses leading to unnecessary or even harmful treatments.
For example, said Dr. Bruce Sangeorzan, professor and vice chairman of the department of orthopedics and sports medicine at the University of Washington, if a healthy, uninjured person goes out for a run, a scan afterward will show fluid in the knee bone. It is inconsequential. But in an injured person, fluid can be a sign of a bone that is stressed or even has a crack and is trying to heal.
“An M.R.I. is unlike any other imaging tool we use,” Dr. Sangeorzan said. “It is a very sensitive tool, but it is not very specific. That’s the problem.” And scans almost always find something abnormal, although most abnormalities are of no consequence.
“It is very rare for an M.R.I. to come back with the words ‘normal study,’ “ said Dr. Christopher DiGiovanni, a professor of orthopedics and a sports medicine specialist at Brown University. “I can’t tell you the last time I’ve seen it.”
In sports medicine, where injuries are typically torn muscles or tendons or narrow cracks in bones, specialists like Dr. Andrews and Dr. DiGiovanni say M.R.I.’s often are not needed…
Here's a link to the entire article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10....html?pagewanted=all
I find this interesting. When son was drafted and had an mri before he signed they told him his shoulder showed he had wear and tear.
He never had an issue in HS or college.
He never had an issue in HS or college.
tpm is he still pitching ?
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Obviously you don’t know a great deal about data bases.
Obviously you don't know a great deal about experimental design. I assure you that any database you constructed in less than a minute would not satisfactorily test a research hypothesis.
Shoulder MRI's are simply not that accurate because the shoulder is so hard to image. During his junior year of college my son developed a shoulder issue. The orthopedic's diagnosis, based on his symptomatology, was posterior labral fraying. An MRI was done in the doctor's office which the radiologist INTERPRETED as showing fraying/wear and tear in several areas. MRI's in doctors' offices are often low power. I insisted on a second MRI, which was INTERPRETED to show much less than the first one. Son gutted it out and had shoulder scoped during the summer. During surgery the doctor found the labral fraying he expected, plus some minor rotator cuff fraying. The rest of his shoulder was pretty much pristine. All of the rest of the artifacts/irregularities they THOUGHT they had seen on the MRIs proved to be nothing.
The orthopedic, who did a fellowship with Andrews, told us that probably every player on the team, especially the pitchers, had some degree of fraying/wear and tear in their shoulders. He also claimed that Andrews bases his diagnoses of labral problems much more on sympamatology than MRI findings.
The orthopedic, who did a fellowship with Andrews, told us that probably every player on the team, especially the pitchers, had some degree of fraying/wear and tear in their shoulders. He also claimed that Andrews bases his diagnoses of labral problems much more on sympamatology than MRI findings.
I understand that false positive in MRI is common. In the NY article, it takes a high power MRI to invalidate a previous MRI that shown sign of torn ACL.
How about false negative, is it common, ie. the MRI shows nothing is damage but it turns out that there are demages?
How about false negative, is it common, ie. the MRI shows nothing is damage but it turns out that there are demages?
quote:osti
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
Obviously you don't know a great deal about experimental design. I assure you that any database you constructed in less than a minute would not satisfactorily test a research hypothesis.
Your position is, there’s nothing that can be learned from only having a player ID, a date, and the number of pitches, and I’m telling you that’s a heck of a lot of data that anyone caring to investigate it would find a great deal of information. If nothing else, knowing how many pitches were thrown by every pitcher and how much rest he had would certainly interest a lot of people I know because it would establish once and for all if there really was a lot of overuse/abuse.
As I said before, all those other factors would be wonderful to have, but until its established once and for all that there is a problem, getting people to submit the data would be sketchy at best. Heck, I can think of 15-20 other factors I like to have in addition to the big 3, but that’s wishing for a Bugatti Veyron on a Nissan Versa budget. One step at a time with things like this would give researchers time to think about what other info would be of the most benefit.
quote:quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Obviously you don’t know a great deal about data bases.
Obviously you don't know a great deal about experimental design. I assure you that any database you constructed in less than a minute would not satisfactorily test a research hypothesis.
Experimental life science is a very complex and complicated discipline. You can deduce almost anything you want based on false premises and assumptions from a set of data. Is wine good for the health? Regular aspirin intake good for your health? How about regular long distance running? Fish oils good for you (scientists have been flip-flopping on this)? What causes cancer - stress, lack of vitamin C, D, E, B's, or compromised immune system or genes?
quote:Originally posted by J H:quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
Clean mechanics can be described as pitching without pain.
So you're saying that every single pitcher that hurts their arm has bad mechanics, and every single pitcher that doesn't hurt their arm has clean mechanics?
I pitched from age 9 to age 21 without arm pain. Never hurt. Always fresh. Always felt good.
Now, I have a scar.
Does that mean that during all those innings I threw from 9-21 I had perfect mechanics, and when I hurt my arm my mechanics turned bad?
Dr. Andrews disagrees with you. He wants pitch count limitations on youth pitchers and lays out guidelines for days of rest. He understands that it is dangerous for youth pitchers to pitch and he understands that pitching as a youth can cause damage going into the future. You ask for evidence? Watch the Little League World Series every year on ESPN. They have rules about this. Dr. Andrews created them.
So here's how I'm interpreting this thus far: you say there's no evidence that pitching a lot as a youth causes injury over the years. Dr. Andrews says you're wrong. You say that if a kid's arm isn't bothering him when he's pitching then he's fine and he won't get hurt in the future. My scar says you're wrong.
Any other personal beliefs and theories that you have that you'd like to share? Evidence and research isn't necessary, since you've never cited anything to prove your opinions in the past. You just try to buck the trend of the scientific community and then proceed to belittle other posters like myself, Bum and TPM when we argue your point with facts.
I will give you one brownie point, however. I'm impressed that it took you a whole year since you got suspended posting under a different name to restart your outlandish statements. I thought maybe you'd learned and listened throughout that year, and was pleased to see some beneficial contribution to the boards.
I never said that pitching a lot at the youth level would never lead to injury. You misinterpreted what I was getting at. We all agree that pitching a lot, to the point of overuse leads to injuries. Dr. Andrews also agrees otherwise he wouldn't of got involved with the Little Leauge association to implement pitch counts for youth age pitchers. But note- He never said "not to pitch" at the youth level. He realizes as well as all of us that overuse is the cause of ucl injury needing surgery.
In my opinion the pitchers with bad mechanics are more prone to pain and injury. I don't know your individual case, what your mechanics are like, etc. to give my opinion on the matter.
I have known kids with bad mechanics who have gone out game after game and finish each game with a sore elbow or shoulder. They are more than likely going to get seriously injured if they continue to pitch as their velocity increases. For them its a simple case of "overuse" because of their bad mechanics. Anytime you get abnormal pain such as in your elbow or shoulder that is "overuse".
I don't really believe you that you pitched all those years with absolutely no pain. Your ucl dont just tear on one pitch. So either a freak thing happened to you or you have no pain receptors in your arm.
Besides all that, you have already admitted that your injury was caused by "overuse". Even Dr. Andrews says that is why your ucl tore.
quote:Originally posted by MTH:
Shoulder MRI's are simply not that accurate because the shoulder is so hard to image. During his junior year of college my son developed a shoulder issue. The orthopedic's diagnosis, based on his symptomatology, was posterior labral fraying. An MRI was done in the doctor's office which the radiologist INTERPRETED as showing fraying/wear and tear in several areas. MRI's in doctors' offices are often low power. I insisted on a second MRI, which was INTERPRETED to show much less than the first one. Son gutted it out and had shoulder scoped during the summer. During surgery the doctor found the labral fraying he expected, plus some minor rotator cuff fraying. The rest of his shoulder was pretty much pristine. All of the rest of the artifacts/irregularities they THOUGHT they had seen on the MRIs proved to be nothing.
The orthopedic, who did a fellowship with Andrews, told us that probably every player on the team, especially the pitchers, had some degree of fraying/wear and tear in their shoulders. He also claimed that Andrews bases his diagnoses of labral problems much more on sympamatology than MRI findings.
MTH,
As I had mentioned son had an MRI when he signed and they told him it looked like a normal shoulder from a pitcher who had been pitching since 8,9. Showed fraying, wear and tear as well but the structure was solid and showed no tears or anything of concern.
The following spring son developed pain in shoulder area (around the pit area), another mri revealed nothing, had an injection. Mid summer he had arthoscopic procedure to look to see what was going on, nothing significant, had a clean up.
The following season, experienced the same issue, but this time he could barely lift arm, went to see Dave Alchek in NYC. He was diagnosed with cortacoid impingement, very hard to diagnose, this impingement was causing the fraying. Just like Andrews, he based his suspicions on the problem through symtoms not so much an MRI. Doc said years of pitching just wore down the area. Shaved bone.
Skylark,
You await the day that everyone has access to a cheap portable MRI for a "check" up? How does that eliminate injuries? It took 2 years and two fine doctors to finally come to a conclusion.
Dr. Andrews and others of his calibur who have all worked together would NEVER come out publicly and say that a pitcher should not be pitching at 8,9.
but I would bet in private they endorse coach pitch at that age.
quote:
I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years."
Overuse that started at a young age. Thats how Dr. Andrew put it eh? So you admit your arm took a beating over the many years of overuse. Thats what I been arguing all along.
I rest my case.
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:quote:
I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years."
Overuse that started at a young age. Thats how Dr. Andrew put it eh? So you admit your arm took a beating over the many years of overuse. Thats what I been arguing all along.
I rest my case.
I don't think you get it. He is saying there are contributing factors to pitcher injury, pitching too early is just one of many.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Skylark:quote:
I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years."
Overuse that started at a young age. Thats how Dr. Andrew put it eh? So you admit your arm took a beating over the many years of overuse. Thats what I been arguing all along.
I rest my case.
I don't think you get it. He is saying there are contributing factors to pitcher injury, pitching too early is just one of many.
JH admitted it was too many years of overuse.
Overuse just means used to much and that includes when a pitcher begins.
My son began, at 8, if he had started a bit later maybe at 12, that is 4 less years of non use on the mound.
We were very careful with son in his youth years, much more than most because he threw hard, yet IMO he was overused by starting on the mound too early .
Not sure why you keep arguing that point.
My son began, at 8, if he had started a bit later maybe at 12, that is 4 less years of non use on the mound.
We were very careful with son in his youth years, much more than most because he threw hard, yet IMO he was overused by starting on the mound too early .
Not sure why you keep arguing that point.
I believe both, TPM and Skylark (and others), are looking from different viewpoints. If a pitcher started at a young age 8,9 in LL or Pony and just play in Spring and observe all the pitch counts and limits, and compare to a pitcher that start pitching at 11,12 and play all year round, local league and travel balls, I believe the later one who started late may not fair any better or worse when both pitchers reach the age of say 17. Both might have thrown the same number of pitches thru their lifetime up of to 17 years' old. The former one over a longer period, the later one over a shorter period.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Overuse just means used to much and that includes when a pitcher begins.
My son began, at 8, if he had started a bit later maybe at 12, that is 4 less years of non use on the mound.
We were very careful with son in his youth years, much more than most because he threw hard, yet IMO he was overused by starting on the mound too early .
Not sure why you keep arguing that point.
I dont agree with defining overuse as starting young. When my son started pitching at 9 he threw 4-5 innings a week over the coarae of about 3-4 months. That was all he pitched that first year. He didnt didnt start playing travel ball until he was 10 and that was over by July of that year. He had the next 8 months off from pitching in games. There is absolutely no way anyone could call that " overuse".
It wasnt until his next year that he played travel ball and they threw him quite a bit that year and we changed teams the next year.
Overuse is thus not defined by when a pitcher starts throwing but rather how much they throw in a given period of time.
Skylark- I had a nice, long response written out but I decided to delete it. I learned in the past that wasting my time with people who don't want to listen and learn is useless. And you very much proved to fall under the category of one of those people when you posted under Gingerbread Man, before you were suspended from the boards.
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/2787006216/p/1
Good luck to your son. I hope that he has a long, injury-free career in the game of baseball.
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/2787006216/p/1
Good luck to your son. I hope that he has a long, injury-free career in the game of baseball.
quote:Originally posted by bball123:
I believe both, TPM and Skylark (and others), are looking from different viewpoints. If a pitcher started at a young age 8,9 in LL or Pony and just play in Spring and observe all the pitch counts and limits, and compare to a pitcher that start pitching at 11,12 and play all year round, local league and travel balls, I believe the later one who started late may not fair any better or worse when both pitchers reach the age of say 17. Both might have thrown the same number of pitches thru their lifetime up of to 17 years' old. The former one over a longer period, the later one over a shorter period.
I can't speak for anyone else but only my opinion.
I live in FL, where often children play all year long. Others live in states where they get only a certain time of year to play. At 8 it wasn't LL, it was khoury league, and you pitched. My husband took him out of coach pitch because he wanted him to learn how to pitch at a young age.
I am saying I feel it wasn't necessary, and sorry that he didn't wait until later. I feel son threw unnecessarily at a young age.
Not sure why that is so hard a concept to ingest.
quote:Originally posted by J H:
Skylark- I had a nice, long response written out but I decided to delete it. I learned in the past that wasting my time with people who don't want to listen and learn is useless. And you very much proved to fall under the category of one of those people when you posted under Gingerbread Man, before you were suspended from the boards.
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/2787006216/p/1
Good luck to your son. I hope that he has a long, injury-free career in the game of baseball.
Yikes I forgot about the catching!
quote:Originally posted by J H:
Skylark- I had a nice, long response written out but I decided to delete it. I learned in the past that wasting my time with people who don't want to listen and learn is useless. And you very much proved to fall under the category of one of those people when you posted under Gingerbread Man, before you were suspended from the boards.
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/2787006216/p/1
Good luck to your son. I hope that he has a long, injury-free career in the game of baseball.
JH,
With due respect I congradulate you on your long career and overcoming surgery to throw again. My whole beef on this issue however is that overuse Is overuse and left unchecked may lead to Injury. You cant defIne overuse merely on the age they start..
I wholeheartedly agree. But to deny the fact that pitching at a young age has a negative effect on the arm's future health is being ignorant, in my opinion. Of course there are exceptions and of course there are ways to go about things to minimize the risk, but pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless.
quote:Originally posted by J H:
pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless.
No matter the particular age, body, fitness level, strength, flexibility, genetics, training, etc. of a specific individual, pitching a baseball is a unnatural, violent act. As the NY Times article I posted above explains, MRI's of "healthy" (i.e. asymptomatic) arms and shoulders show accumulative abnormalities regardless of whether the arm/shoulder hurts at that moment. As Josh wisely says: "pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless." Whether this violent act leads, five feet or five hundred miles down the road, to a debilitating injury is not always predictable or inevitable. But, as Johnny Mathis once sang, "Chances are..."
The best simple advice any young pitcher can follow is...
-work hard and maintain fitness
-get proper instruction
-listen to your growing body--discomfort/pain is a signal to be heeded
-eat when hungry
-rest when tired
-don't overdo it
And here are my own personal opinions, based on nothing more than a very limited set of experiences:
-there's no need to throw a curve ball before you're 15 years old and there's every reason to develop a change-up as early as possible
-take some time off from baseball every year
-play other sports--at least recreationally--on a regular basis
-have fun
More interesting reading:
Prevention of arm injury in youth baseball pitchers.
Kerut EK, Kerut DG, Fleisig GS, Andrews JR.
J La State Med Soc. 2008 Mar-Apr;160(2):95-8.
Abstract
The advent of youth year-round baseball has come with an increased incidence of pitching related injury and surgery, most notably involving the shoulder and elbow (ulnar collateral ligament). These injuries become evident in high school and college, but begin at the youth level. Several studies have identified baseball pitching risk factors during youth that increase likelihood for injury and surgery in subsequent years. Based on these studies, the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee has published guidelines for pitching that include limits on pitch count and pitches per week and season as well as recommendations for number of rest days between pitching. Also, recommendations include the restriction of breaking balls prior to puberty, the importance of instruction for proper pitching mechanics as early as possible in development, and at least three months of rest after a season…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18681352
Prevention of arm injury in youth baseball pitchers.
Kerut EK, Kerut DG, Fleisig GS, Andrews JR.
J La State Med Soc. 2008 Mar-Apr;160(2):95-8.
Abstract
The advent of youth year-round baseball has come with an increased incidence of pitching related injury and surgery, most notably involving the shoulder and elbow (ulnar collateral ligament). These injuries become evident in high school and college, but begin at the youth level. Several studies have identified baseball pitching risk factors during youth that increase likelihood for injury and surgery in subsequent years. Based on these studies, the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee has published guidelines for pitching that include limits on pitch count and pitches per week and season as well as recommendations for number of rest days between pitching. Also, recommendations include the restriction of breaking balls prior to puberty, the importance of instruction for proper pitching mechanics as early as possible in development, and at least three months of rest after a season…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18681352
quote:I can't speak for anyone else but only my opinion.
I live in FL, where often children play all year long. Others live in states where they get only a certain time of year to play. At 8 it wasn't LL, it was khoury league, and you pitched. My husband took him out of coach pitch because he wanted him to learn how to pitch at a young age.
I am saying I feel it wasn't necessary, and sorry that he didn't wait until later. I feel son threw unnecessarily at a young age.
Not sure why that is so hard a concept to ingest.
I live in California and there is a great temptation to play all year round with travel teams. So far son and I are able to resist that and just play in the LL. A lot of the travel teams will advertize that son should join, learn about holding base runners as a pitcher, bigger field, etc.. When son went on to the 60/90 big field last season, he balked twice in a row with runners on 2nd and 3rd, trying to hold the runners. It turned out that there were the only 2 runs he gave up in that game. Reason - this was the first time he was doing it. Consequences - immaterial, so what he lost that game. By end of the season, he had learned to step his hind leg of the rubber first before doing anything. What I am trying to tell parents is that don't jump the gun too much, kids will learn and continue to learn. So what if a kid learn how to hold a runner at 10. Would it make a difference compared to my son learning it at 13? Most likely not. Same with CB, sliders, cutters, etc.. However it is hard to resist the temptation as most parents would like their kids to get better fast and grow up fast and take it too seriously. Son play basketball, volleyball, football, track and field, s****r, swimming and just about any sports he could lay his hands/feet on in middle school. So this prevent us from focusing too narrowly on just baseball at such an early age.
quote:quote:
Originally posted by J H:
pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless.
No matter the particular age, body, fitness level, strength, flexibility, genetics, training, etc. of a specific individual, pitching a baseball is a unnatural, violent act. As the NY Times article I posted above explains, MRI's of "healthy" (i.e. asymptomatic) arms and shoulders show accumulative abnormalities regardless of whether the arm/shoulder hurts at that moment. As Josh wisely says: "pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless." Whether this violent act leads, five feet or five hundred miles down the road, to a debilitating injury is not always predictable or inevitable. But, as Johnny Mathis once sang, "Chances are..."
The best simple advice any young pitcher can follow is...
-work hard and maintain fitness
-get proper instruction
-listen to your growing body--discomfort/pain is a signal to be heeded
-eat when hungry
-rest when tired
-don't overdo it
And here are my own personal opinions, based on nothing more than a very limited set of experiences:
-there's no need to throw a curve ball before you're 15 years old and there's every reason to develop a change-up as early as possible
-take some time off from baseball every year
-play other sports--at least recreationally--on a regular basis
-have fun
Good read.
I and others have been offering basically the same parental advice for years as bball123 has suggested above. For some reason there is always an argument, not even discussion, just arguements from the same.
I am not involved in the game as a professional and neither are most here, but if I was seeking some good advice for my young pitcher, it would be from someone who has coached higher successful profile players or those that are in college or involved in the professional game at some capacity. That could be but not limited to MLB scouts, agents, or someone like Jerry Ford who has probably seen almost every top young pro pitcher who pitched at some point.
Those that have experienced major surgeries TJ or shoulder add good advice as to what they did (or son did), and how they would change things, with keeping in mind that all bodies develop differently and that most pitchers do not reach their peak performance and physical maturity until they are in their 20's. Some of these folks have also had face to face advice and conversations with some of the best doctors in the field of sports medicine. When a high profile doctor tells you as a player that IHO that you began the game too early, what more proof do you need to understand that maybe it wasn't all that important at 8,9 and just maybe even if everything your folks thought they were doing was right now with that scar on your elbow or shoulder and months of rehab and lost time you may have started a bit too early.
I don't give a cr ap about the scientific proof.
I would not accept explanations on what works and what doesn't from those that proclaim themselves to be self appointed professionals. In other words their scope of experience doesn't go past being a parent of a player that has not reached any level after HS, not yet secured a college commitment or scholarship and actually pitched 3-4 years minimum past HS to actually understand that no matter what, injuries will at some point strike. FWIW, all baseball players have some type of injury along the way, it's inevitable. It just is a bit more devastating for pitchers to have to take 10-12 months off for surgery for elbow or shoulder because there is always someone to take your place, no matter how good you were before. The only time you get multiple chances to prove your worth is if you have a team that has invested millions.
Pitchers that are injured are released from college programs as well as the professional ranks, every year. In this day and age, with the competition being as it is, not too many get second chances.
We brought our pitcher up on common sense. You don't have to be a rocket scientist or read major scientific publications to figure it all out. No year round bb, FB and change up development and use before cb or sliders, good mechanics, limited time on mound as a youth (bring it on when it really counts in HS) and a good amount of time away from it as well by participating in other sports (as metnied above), etc.
Son played less BB (and all positions when not pitching) than many that post here, be aware he did sustain injury, it is inevitable. Nothing major, set him back a bit. Ironically he throws HARD yet he has had less issues than RHP collegues/friends of his that throw with less intensity. Pitchers that throw hard are more suseptible to injury because they are used more often as young adults.
Even mlb teams are now taking their high velo guys and placing them in the pen when they move them up to the big leagues first year or maybe two.
Remarkable, son is still in the game.
Parents of young pitchers, please, please, do your homework, let your parental instinct (protecting your child as you would for anything else) guide you to make the right decisions.
I am not involved in the game as a professional and neither are most here, but if I was seeking some good advice for my young pitcher, it would be from someone who has coached higher successful profile players or those that are in college or involved in the professional game at some capacity. That could be but not limited to MLB scouts, agents, or someone like Jerry Ford who has probably seen almost every top young pro pitcher who pitched at some point.
Those that have experienced major surgeries TJ or shoulder add good advice as to what they did (or son did), and how they would change things, with keeping in mind that all bodies develop differently and that most pitchers do not reach their peak performance and physical maturity until they are in their 20's. Some of these folks have also had face to face advice and conversations with some of the best doctors in the field of sports medicine. When a high profile doctor tells you as a player that IHO that you began the game too early, what more proof do you need to understand that maybe it wasn't all that important at 8,9 and just maybe even if everything your folks thought they were doing was right now with that scar on your elbow or shoulder and months of rehab and lost time you may have started a bit too early.
I don't give a cr ap about the scientific proof.
I would not accept explanations on what works and what doesn't from those that proclaim themselves to be self appointed professionals. In other words their scope of experience doesn't go past being a parent of a player that has not reached any level after HS, not yet secured a college commitment or scholarship and actually pitched 3-4 years minimum past HS to actually understand that no matter what, injuries will at some point strike. FWIW, all baseball players have some type of injury along the way, it's inevitable. It just is a bit more devastating for pitchers to have to take 10-12 months off for surgery for elbow or shoulder because there is always someone to take your place, no matter how good you were before. The only time you get multiple chances to prove your worth is if you have a team that has invested millions.
Pitchers that are injured are released from college programs as well as the professional ranks, every year. In this day and age, with the competition being as it is, not too many get second chances.
We brought our pitcher up on common sense. You don't have to be a rocket scientist or read major scientific publications to figure it all out. No year round bb, FB and change up development and use before cb or sliders, good mechanics, limited time on mound as a youth (bring it on when it really counts in HS) and a good amount of time away from it as well by participating in other sports (as metnied above), etc.
Son played less BB (and all positions when not pitching) than many that post here, be aware he did sustain injury, it is inevitable. Nothing major, set him back a bit. Ironically he throws HARD yet he has had less issues than RHP collegues/friends of his that throw with less intensity. Pitchers that throw hard are more suseptible to injury because they are used more often as young adults.
Even mlb teams are now taking their high velo guys and placing them in the pen when they move them up to the big leagues first year or maybe two.
Remarkable, son is still in the game.
Parents of young pitchers, please, please, do your homework, let your parental instinct (protecting your child as you would for anything else) guide you to make the right decisions.
TPM,
Sometimes parents who are aggressively developing their still-young players ("I'm real careful. I never let him pitch both ends of the doubleheader when the temperature gets above 105") remind me of the joke about the optimist who fell off the Empire State Building. As he passed the 30th floor, he yelled out, "I'm all right so far!"
Sometimes parents who are aggressively developing their still-young players ("I'm real careful. I never let him pitch both ends of the doubleheader when the temperature gets above 105") remind me of the joke about the optimist who fell off the Empire State Building. As he passed the 30th floor, he yelled out, "I'm all right so far!"
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
TPM,
Sometimes parents who are aggressively developing their still-young players ("I'm real careful. I never let him pitch both ends of the doubleheader when the temperature gets above 105") remind me of the joke about the optimist who fell off the Empire State Building. As he passed the 30th floor, he yelled out, "I'm all right so far!"
I hear ya. I hear all the time how careful parents are, but every once in a while those stories surface. For example, "my son plays two leagues at 12 but he only pitches on one, the other he catches".
Pretty funny, Swampboy.
I was out on my customary 6-mile bike ride yesterday and rode past the ballfield. There was a group of what appeared to be 8-year olds warming up. I rode by a dad who was talking on his cell phone.
His exact words as I rode by: "You know he's the best player on this team, right?"
And so the insantity continues.
I was out on my customary 6-mile bike ride yesterday and rode past the ballfield. There was a group of what appeared to be 8-year olds warming up. I rode by a dad who was talking on his cell phone.
His exact words as I rode by: "You know he's the best player on this team, right?"
And so the insantity continues.
Classic, "my son at 8 had the best ERA (or BA) in his league".
I mean honestly, is that important and who cares!
I mean honestly, is that important and who cares!
All I am saying is that injury is caused by overuse. Almost every poster here has had a pitcher that at one point or another was overused, otherwise they would all be pain and injury free.
Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on. Becauae all pitchers have to start pitching at some point, it all cones down to how much they are overused, how well conditioned they are, genetic structure and mechanics, and smarts.
Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on. Becauae all pitchers have to start pitching at some point, it all cones down to how much they are overused, how well conditioned they are, genetic structure and mechanics, and smarts.
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on.
Thanks for letting us know.
I am extremely busy nowadays, especially with the added responsibility of strengthening my arm after I had surgery from Dr. Andrews, who told me that starting to pitch at the age of 9 most likely had a direct correlation with the tear of my UCL. But, if anyone does have some spare time, I invite you to pose this question on the ASMI message boards:
"Does the age at which one starts to pitch potentially have a bearing on if they will be injured later on?"
I have a hunch, Skylark, that you may not like the responses you see.
But then again, you probably wouldn't listen to them either. They haven't coached your son and his friends like you have...and that experience is infinitely more accurate.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
quote:Originally posted by J H:quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on.
Thanks for letting us know.
I am extremely busy nowadays, especially with the added responsibility of strengthening my arm after I had surgery from Dr. Andrews, who told me that starting to pitch at the age of 9 most likely had a direct correlation with the tear of my UCL. But, if anyone does have some spare time, I invite you to pose this question on the ASMI message boards:
"Does the age at which one starts to pitch potentially have a bearing on if they will be injured later on?"
I have a hunch, Skylark, that you may not like the responses you see.
But then again, you probably wouldn't listen to them either. They haven't coached your son and his friends like you have...and that experience is infinitely more accurate.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Your injuries were because you overused your arm, pkain and simple. Your doctor even said it was from years of overuse. You can interpret it anyway you like, maybe even blame it on starting too youn but the teuth rwmaibs it was from overuse.
Perhaps you need to ask the real question-
Can a pitcher start pitching in little league and follow all the guidelibes of low pitch counts, proper teaching, at least 4-6 months off and still be around later on to pitch in high school and beyond?
Your dr. Andrews sure puts his sanction on it otherwise he wouldnt of made the recomendations in the first pkace.
I find it interesting that we both know that overuse is what leads to injury yet you want to keep arguing this point about the age when they start as if it plays the large role in injury prevention. Let me ask you this- Do you think my son damaged his arm by pitching for. 4 Montha the first year he pitched and then had the next 8 months off?
Skylark,
I just looked up JH's stats. In high school, he threw 52.2 innings as a junior and 36 as a senior. It appears he threw on short rest one time as a junior.
In college, he threw 20.1 innings as a freshman, 38.1 as a soph, and 50.0 as a junior.
He blew out his UCL early in the summer after his junior year.
In light of these moderate workloads, please explain how you know "overuse" (using your definition which does not recognize early starts to pitching careers as a component of overuse) caused his injury. Please tell us your basis for contradicting the judgment of the world's most pre-eminent baseball orthopedist, who has actually examined JH in person and operated on him. What overuse are you referring to and how can you associate it with his injury?
Josh,
Are you sure you're really a pitcher? Compared to a lot of guys I've seen, this looks like it might be an UNDER-USE injury. I think your UCL went bad because it rusted, got brittle, and then busted when you finally did wander out to the mound one day.
I just looked up JH's stats. In high school, he threw 52.2 innings as a junior and 36 as a senior. It appears he threw on short rest one time as a junior.
In college, he threw 20.1 innings as a freshman, 38.1 as a soph, and 50.0 as a junior.
He blew out his UCL early in the summer after his junior year.
In light of these moderate workloads, please explain how you know "overuse" (using your definition which does not recognize early starts to pitching careers as a component of overuse) caused his injury. Please tell us your basis for contradicting the judgment of the world's most pre-eminent baseball orthopedist, who has actually examined JH in person and operated on him. What overuse are you referring to and how can you associate it with his injury?
Josh,
Are you sure you're really a pitcher? Compared to a lot of guys I've seen, this looks like it might be an UNDER-USE injury. I think your UCL went bad because it rusted, got brittle, and then busted when you finally did wander out to the mound one day.
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
Skylark,
I just looked up JH's stats. In high school, he threw 52.2 innings as a junior and 36 as a senior. It appears he threw on short rest one time as a junior.
In college, he threw 20.1 innings as a freshman, 38.1 as a soph, and 50.0 as a junior.
He blew out his UCL early in the summer after his junior year.
In light of these moderate workloads, please explain how you know "overuse" (using your definition which does not recognize early starts to pitching careers as a component of overuse) caused his injury. Please tell us your basis for contradicting the judgment of the world's most pre-eminent baseball orthopedist, who has actually examined JH in person and operated on him. What overuse are you referring to and how can you associate it with his injury?
Josh,
Are you sure you're really a pitcher? Compared to a lot of guys I've seen, this looks like it might be an UNDER-USE injury. I think your UCL went bad because it rusted, got brittle, and then busted when you finally did wander out to the mound one day.
Swampboy, I certainly cant soeak fir Josh. All I am going off of is what he stated about what his doctor told him- that it was many years of overuse. I dont know what leagues Josh all played in besides his hs and college leagues. I am sure he played more baseball than just the short high school and college seasobs. Ask Josh if you really want to know. I am just stating what he has already said- that his doctor said the injury occurred from many years of overuse. Usually ,overuse" means specifically "pitching too much".
Guess we read it differently. I thought JH reported Andrews saying there was most likely a connection between his injury and starting to pitch at age 9.
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on.
It is impossible for a youth pitcher to both receive proper pitching instruction AND have clean mechanics. Impossible.
You can teach a young pitcher how to pitch, but the fact is no matter how you teach him his young body can't comprehend the fluidness, the kinetic chain, that is required for velocity. They simply don't have that mature physical control over their body yet.
So they cheat.
The young pitcher learns to torque his shoulder in such a way to glean that extra bit of velocity. Learns that slurves and knuckleballs and college sliders get people out. But at what price?
True pitching is a difficult art. Same arm speed, same slot, same follow through. You can't teach that to a young pitcher, no matter how hard you try.
This is why young pitchers accumulate damage. They cheat. Usually to please dads like you.
