Velocity vs. accuracy for young pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
What is meant by proper training as a youth pitcher?

Do you still advocate after pitching that a young pitcher go home and throw more against the wall?

You seem to have made a 360 degree turn since you came here many years ago. If I recall you also felt it was ok to pitch on consecutive days.

Certainly your kidding? You train youth at their level. Its not much different to speak about teaching them how to hit, how to steal bases, how to pick off runners, etc. Training at the youth level is about teaching them the proper basic mechanics coupled with strength training for their age. Its really a no-brainer.

If you had been paying attention I did mention that son did throw quite a lot when he was younger and that each consecutive year I clamped down more and more about how much he did pitch. The main factor here is that he was never pitching with elbow or shoulder pain. He still throws a lot which is wholly different than " pitching".

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
Clean mechanics can be described as pitching without pain.

So you're saying that every single pitcher that hurts their arm has bad mechanics, and every single pitcher that doesn't hurt their arm has clean mechanics?

I pitched from age 9 to age 21 without arm pain. Never hurt. Always fresh. Always felt good.

Now, I have a scar.

Does that mean that during all those innings I threw from 9-21 I had perfect mechanics, and when I hurt my arm my mechanics turned bad?

Dr. Andrews disagrees with you. He wants pitch count limitations on youth pitchers and lays out guidelines for days of rest. He understands that it is dangerous for youth pitchers to pitch and he understands that pitching as a youth can cause damage going into the future. You ask for evidence? Watch the Little League World Series every year on ESPN. They have rules about this. Dr. Andrews created them.

So here's how I'm interpreting this thus far: you say there's no evidence that pitching a lot as a youth causes injury over the years. Dr. Andrews says you're wrong. You say that if a kid's arm isn't bothering him when he's pitching then he's fine and he won't get hurt in the future. My scar says you're wrong.

Any other personal beliefs and theories that you have that you'd like to share? Evidence and research isn't necessary, since you've never cited anything to prove your opinions in the past. You just try to buck the trend of the scientific community and then proceed to belittle other posters like myself, Bum and TPM when we argue your point with facts.

I will give you one brownie point, however. I'm impressed that it took you a whole year since you got suspended posting under a different name to restart your outlandish statements. I thought maybe you'd learned and listened throughout that year, and was pleased to see some beneficial contribution to the boards.

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
Stats,
You totally missed my point.
I was teasing you for making:
a) a ridiculous assertion: namely, that it would simple to compile a useful database on pitch counts; and

Obviously you don’t know a great deal about data bases. I assure you, I could create such a database in less than 1 minute, and I’m not in the business any longer. The trick isn’t in creating the data base, finding the space to store it, or even in accessing it for updates, and the trick isn’t even getting people to use it. What most people don’t get is, the chances their kid’s pitch counts and dates are already in one database or another, is probably well over 90% right now. The trick is getting everyone to use the same database.

quote:

b) a slander on the motives of everyone who isn't taking your advice to stop the world and fetch you some numbers to play with.

What is so wrong with wanting facts? Who could it possibly hurt other than those who are endangering pitchers?

quote:

As far as all that stuff you say you didn't mention: yeah, that's sort of my point. A database full of pitch count info is useless without all that other stuff you need to identify the independent variables. That's why your simple solution is unworkable. It has nothing to do with unwillingness to face the truth and everything about understanding how hard it would be to act on your advice.

Why would it be useless? If anything, it would put to rest all the individual anecdotal evidence. For all I know, there is no abuse/overuse problem in today’s amateur game, and for all you know the abuse/overuse is widespread and growing. Why wouldn’t you want to know? I’m sure willing to admit I’ve been wrong all these years, so why aren’t you?

quote:

For now, I think the best we can do in the absence of large, controlled longitudinal studies that regress out the other variables is about what Dr. Andrews seems to advocate, which is prudent caution based on the qualified observations and associations he can make, and what PGStaff advocates, which is more attention to development over competition in the early years.

I’ve never said anything different, other than to advocate for those studies.

quote:

I will grant you one important point. You are correct that there is a vocal minority that doesn't want to face the truth. There are people here who protest that because we can't double-blind prove that x number of pitches or curve balls before y years of age will cause a catastrophic injury in this child this weekend we should just ignore all the tentative insights people like Dr. Andrews have carefully drawn, resist pitch limits for youth pitchers, and generally let prepubescent boys throw as many curves as it takes to win a trophy now. Often, the coaches who most stridently protest that we can't know the limit for any one pitcher are also the ones who insist they do know their ace has a "rubber arm" and is immune from the risks. I am not one of those people.

Again, something I’ve never disagreed with.

quote:

I'm in the camp that says pitching carries inherent risks that are generally understood but unknown for individual pitchers; we should apply the general knowledge that is available and manage that risk cautiously for all pitchers and very cautiously for young and immature pitchers. As pitchers get older, they can participate more actively in deciding how to manage their individual risk in the context of their goals.

And there’s where it all falls apart. “Generally understood” means not everyone understands those risks. The problem is, does it mean 95% know or 95% don’t know? That’s why pitch counts gained such a strong foothold. All knowledge means is, having understanding. You’ll notice I never suggested any limits, but rather simply just getting the information so people much smarter than I would be able to draw conclusions based on fact rather than perception.

Interesting article, which I have cited before:

The New York Times, October 28, 2011

Sports Medicine Said to Overuse M.R.I.’s

By GINA KOLATA

Dr. James Andrews, a widely known sports medicine orthopedist in Gulf Breeze, Fla., wanted to test his suspicion that M.R.I.’s, the scans given to almost every injured athlete or casual exerciser, might be a bit misleading. So he scanned the shoulders of 31 perfectly healthy professional baseball pitchers.

The pitchers were not injured and had no pain. But the M.R.I.’s found abnormal shoulder cartilage in 90 percent of them and abnormal rotator cuff tendons in 87 percent. “If you want an excuse to operate on a pitcher’s throwing shoulder, just get an M.R.I.,” Dr. Andrews says.

He and other eminent sports medicine specialists are taking a stand against what they see as the vast overuse of magnetic resonance imaging in their specialty.

M.R.I.’s can be invaluable in certain situations — finding serious problems like tumors or helping distinguish between competing diagnoses that fit a patient’s history and symptoms. They also can make money for doctors who own their own machines. And they can please sports medicine patients, who often expect a scan.

But scans are easily misinterpreted and can result in misdiagnoses leading to unnecessary or even harmful treatments.

For example, said Dr. Bruce Sangeorzan, professor and vice chairman of the department of orthopedics and sports medicine at the University of Washington, if a healthy, uninjured person goes out for a run, a scan afterward will show fluid in the knee bone. It is inconsequential. But in an injured person, fluid can be a sign of a bone that is stressed or even has a crack and is trying to heal.

“An M.R.I. is unlike any other imaging tool we use,” Dr. Sangeorzan said. “It is a very sensitive tool, but it is not very specific. That’s the problem.” And scans almost always find something abnormal, although most abnormalities are of no consequence.

“It is very rare for an M.R.I. to come back with the words ‘normal study,’ “ said Dr. Christopher DiGiovanni, a professor of orthopedics and a sports medicine specialist at Brown University. “I can’t tell you the last time I’ve seen it.”

In sports medicine, where injuries are typically torn muscles or tendons or narrow cracks in bones, specialists like Dr. Andrews and Dr. DiGiovanni say M.R.I.’s often are not needed…


Here's a link to the entire article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10....html?pagewanted=all

I find this interesting. When son was drafted and had an mri before he signed they told him his shoulder showed he had wear and tear.

He never had an issue in HS or college.

tpm is he still pitching ?

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:


Obviously you don’t know a great deal about data bases.

Obviously you don't know a great deal about experimental design. I assure you that any database you constructed in less than a minute would not satisfactorily test a research hypothesis.

Shoulder MRI's are simply not that accurate because the shoulder is so hard to image. During his junior year of college my son developed a shoulder issue. The orthopedic's diagnosis, based on his symptomatology, was posterior labral fraying. An MRI was done in the doctor's office which the radiologist INTERPRETED as showing fraying/wear and tear in several areas. MRI's in doctors' offices are often low power. I insisted on a second MRI, which was INTERPRETED to show much less than the first one. Son gutted it out and had shoulder scoped during the summer. During surgery the doctor found the labral fraying he expected, plus some minor rotator cuff fraying. The rest of his shoulder was pretty much pristine. All of the rest of the artifacts/irregularities they THOUGHT they had seen on the MRIs proved to be nothing.

The orthopedic, who did a fellowship with Andrews, told us that probably every player on the team, especially the pitchers, had some degree of fraying/wear and tear in their shoulders. He also claimed that Andrews bases his diagnoses of labral problems much more on sympamatology than MRI findings.

I understand that false positive in MRI is common. In the NY article, it takes a high power MRI to invalidate a previous MRI that shown sign of torn ACL.

How about false negative, is it common, ie. the MRI shows nothing is damage but it turns out that there are demages?

quote:

osti

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
Obviously you don't know a great deal about experimental design. I assure you that any database you constructed in less than a minute would not satisfactorily test a research hypothesis.

Your position is, there’s nothing that can be learned from only having a player ID, a date, and the number of pitches, and I’m telling you that’s a heck of a lot of data that anyone caring to investigate it would find a great deal of information. If nothing else, knowing how many pitches were thrown by every pitcher and how much rest he had would certainly interest a lot of people I know because it would establish once and for all if there really was a lot of overuse/abuse.

As I said before, all those other factors would be wonderful to have, but until its established once and for all that there is a problem, getting people to submit the data would be sketchy at best. Heck, I can think of 15-20 other factors I like to have in addition to the big 3, but that’s wishing for a Bugatti Veyron on a Nissan Versa budget. One step at a time with things like this would give researchers time to think about what other info would be of the most benefit.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:


Obviously you don’t know a great deal about data bases.



Obviously you don't know a great deal about experimental design. I assure you that any database you constructed in less than a minute would not satisfactorily test a research hypothesis.

Experimental life science is a very complex and complicated discipline. You can deduce almost anything you want based on false premises and assumptions from a set of data. Is wine good for the health? Regular aspirin intake good for your health? How about regular long distance running? Fish oils good for you (scientists have been flip-flopping on this)? What causes cancer - stress, lack of vitamin C, D, E, B's, or compromised immune system or genes?

quote:

Originally posted by J H:

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
Clean mechanics can be described as pitching without pain.

So you're saying that every single pitcher that hurts their arm has bad mechanics, and every single pitcher that doesn't hurt their arm has clean mechanics?

I pitched from age 9 to age 21 without arm pain. Never hurt. Always fresh. Always felt good.

Now, I have a scar.

Does that mean that during all those innings I threw from 9-21 I had perfect mechanics, and when I hurt my arm my mechanics turned bad?

Dr. Andrews disagrees with you. He wants pitch count limitations on youth pitchers and lays out guidelines for days of rest. He understands that it is dangerous for youth pitchers to pitch and he understands that pitching as a youth can cause damage going into the future. You ask for evidence? Watch the Little League World Series every year on ESPN. They have rules about this. Dr. Andrews created them.

So here's how I'm interpreting this thus far: you say there's no evidence that pitching a lot as a youth causes injury over the years. Dr. Andrews says you're wrong. You say that if a kid's arm isn't bothering him when he's pitching then he's fine and he won't get hurt in the future. My scar says you're wrong.

Any other personal beliefs and theories that you have that you'd like to share? Evidence and research isn't necessary, since you've never cited anything to prove your opinions in the past. You just try to buck the trend of the scientific community and then proceed to belittle other posters like myself, Bum and TPM when we argue your point with facts.

I will give you one brownie point, however. I'm impressed that it took you a whole year since you got suspended posting under a different name to restart your outlandish statements. I thought maybe you'd learned and listened throughout that year, and was pleased to see some beneficial contribution to the boards.

I never said that pitching a lot at the youth level would never lead to injury. You misinterpreted what I was getting at. We all agree that pitching a lot, to the point of overuse leads to injuries. Dr. Andrews also agrees otherwise he wouldn't of got involved with the Little Leauge association to implement pitch counts for youth age pitchers. But note- He never said "not to pitch" at the youth level. He realizes as well as all of us that overuse is the cause of ucl injury needing surgery.

In my opinion the pitchers with bad mechanics are more prone to pain and injury. I don't know your individual case, what your mechanics are like, etc. to give my opinion on the matter.

I have known kids with bad mechanics who have gone out game after game and finish each game with a sore elbow or shoulder. They are more than likely going to get seriously injured if they continue to pitch as their velocity increases. For them its a simple case of "overuse" because of their bad mechanics. Anytime you get abnormal pain such as in your elbow or shoulder that is "overuse".

I don't really believe you that you pitched all those years with absolutely no pain. Your ucl dont just tear on one pitch. So either a freak thing happened to you or you have no pain receptors in your arm.

Besides all that, you have already admitted that your injury was caused by "overuse". Even Dr. Andrews says that is why your ucl tore.

quote:

Originally posted by MTH:
Shoulder MRI's are simply not that accurate because the shoulder is so hard to image. During his junior year of college my son developed a shoulder issue. The orthopedic's diagnosis, based on his symptomatology, was posterior labral fraying. An MRI was done in the doctor's office which the radiologist INTERPRETED as showing fraying/wear and tear in several areas. MRI's in doctors' offices are often low power. I insisted on a second MRI, which was INTERPRETED to show much less than the first one. Son gutted it out and had shoulder scoped during the summer. During surgery the doctor found the labral fraying he expected, plus some minor rotator cuff fraying. The rest of his shoulder was pretty much pristine. All of the rest of the artifacts/irregularities they THOUGHT they had seen on the MRIs proved to be nothing.

The orthopedic, who did a fellowship with Andrews, told us that probably every player on the team, especially the pitchers, had some degree of fraying/wear and tear in their shoulders. He also claimed that Andrews bases his diagnoses of labral problems much more on sympamatology than MRI findings.

MTH,
As I had mentioned son had an MRI when he signed and they told him it looked like a normal shoulder from a pitcher who had been pitching since 8,9. Showed fraying, wear and tear as well but the structure was solid and showed no tears or anything of concern.

The following spring son developed pain in shoulder area (around the pit area), another mri revealed nothing, had an injection. Mid summer he had arthoscopic procedure to look to see what was going on, nothing significant, had a clean up.
The following season, experienced the same issue, but this time he could barely lift arm, went to see Dave Alchek in NYC. He was diagnosed with cortacoid impingement, very hard to diagnose, this impingement was causing the fraying. Just like Andrews, he based his suspicions on the problem through symtoms not so much an MRI. Doc said years of pitching just wore down the area. Shaved bone.

Skylark,
You await the day that everyone has access to a cheap portable MRI for a "check" up? How does that eliminate injuries? It took 2 years and two fine doctors to finally come to a conclusion.

Dr. Andrews and others of his calibur who have all worked together would NEVER come out publicly and say that a pitcher should not be pitching at 8,9.
but I would bet in private they endorse coach pitch at that age.

quote:

I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years."

Overuse that started at a young age. Thats how Dr. Andrew put it eh? So you admit your arm took a beating over the many years of overuse. Thats what I been arguing all along.

I rest my case.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:

quote:

I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years."

Overuse that started at a young age. Thats how Dr. Andrew put it eh? So you admit your arm took a beating over the many years of overuse. Thats what I been arguing all along.

I rest my case.

I don't think you get it. He is saying there are contributing factors to pitcher injury, pitching too early is just one of many.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:

quote:

I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years."

Overuse that started at a young age. Thats how Dr. Andrew put it eh? So you admit your arm took a beating over the many years of overuse. Thats what I been arguing all along.

I rest my case.

I don't think you get it. He is saying there are contributing factors to pitcher injury, pitching too early is just one of many.

JH admitted it was too many years of overuse.

Overuse just means used to much and that includes when a pitcher begins.
My son began, at 8, if he had started a bit later maybe at 12, that is 4 less years of non use on the mound.

We were very careful with son in his youth years, much more than most because he threw hard, yet IMO he was overused by starting on the mound too early .

Not sure why you keep arguing that point.

I believe both, TPM and Skylark (and others), are looking from different viewpoints. If a pitcher started at a young age 8,9 in LL or Pony and just play in Spring and observe all the pitch counts and limits, and compare to a pitcher that start pitching at 11,12 and play all year round, local league and travel balls, I believe the later one who started late may not fair any better or worse when both pitchers reach the age of say 17. Both might have thrown the same number of pitches thru their lifetime up of to 17 years' old. The former one over a longer period, the later one over a shorter period.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Overuse just means used to much and that includes when a pitcher begins.
My son began, at 8, if he had started a bit later maybe at 12, that is 4 less years of non use on the mound.

We were very careful with son in his youth years, much more than most because he threw hard, yet IMO he was overused by starting on the mound too early .

Not sure why you keep arguing that point.

I dont agree with defining overuse as starting young. When my son started pitching at 9 he threw 4-5 innings a week over the coarae of about 3-4 months. That was all he pitched that first year. He didnt didnt start playing travel ball until he was 10 and that was over by July of that year. He had the next 8 months off from pitching in games. There is absolutely no way anyone could call that " overuse".

It wasnt until his next year that he played travel ball and they threw him quite a bit that year and we changed teams the next year.

Overuse is thus not defined by when a pitcher starts throwing but rather how much they throw in a given period of time.

Skylark- I had a nice, long response written out but I decided to delete it. I learned in the past that wasting my time with people who don't want to listen and learn is useless. And you very much proved to fall under the category of one of those people when you posted under Gingerbread Man, before you were suspended from the boards.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/2787006216/p/1

Good luck to your son. I hope that he has a long, injury-free career in the game of baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by bball123:
I believe both, TPM and Skylark (and others), are looking from different viewpoints. If a pitcher started at a young age 8,9 in LL or Pony and just play in Spring and observe all the pitch counts and limits, and compare to a pitcher that start pitching at 11,12 and play all year round, local league and travel balls, I believe the later one who started late may not fair any better or worse when both pitchers reach the age of say 17. Both might have thrown the same number of pitches thru their lifetime up of to 17 years' old. The former one over a longer period, the later one over a shorter period.

I can't speak for anyone else but only my opinion.
I live in FL, where often children play all year long. Others live in states where they get only a certain time of year to play. At 8 it wasn't LL, it was khoury league, and you pitched. My husband took him out of coach pitch because he wanted him to learn how to pitch at a young age.

I am saying I feel it wasn't necessary, and sorry that he didn't wait until later. I feel son threw unnecessarily at a young age.

Not sure why that is so hard a concept to ingest.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
Skylark- I had a nice, long response written out but I decided to delete it. I learned in the past that wasting my time with people who don't want to listen and learn is useless. And you very much proved to fall under the category of one of those people when you posted under Gingerbread Man, before you were suspended from the boards.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/2787006216/p/1

Good luck to your son. I hope that he has a long, injury-free career in the game of baseball.

Yikes I forgot about the catching!

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
Skylark- I had a nice, long response written out but I decided to delete it. I learned in the past that wasting my time with people who don't want to listen and learn is useless. And you very much proved to fall under the category of one of those people when you posted under Gingerbread Man, before you were suspended from the boards.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/2787006216/p/1

Good luck to your son. I hope that he has a long, injury-free career in the game of baseball.

JH,
With due respect I congradulate you on your long career and overcoming surgery to throw again. My whole beef on this issue however is that overuse Is overuse and left unchecked may lead to Injury. You cant defIne overuse merely on the age they start..

I wholeheartedly agree. But to deny the fact that pitching at a young age has a negative effect on the arm's future health is being ignorant, in my opinion. Of course there are exceptions and of course there are ways to go about things to minimize the risk, but pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless.

No matter the particular age, body, fitness level, strength, flexibility, genetics, training, etc. of a specific individual, pitching a baseball is a unnatural, violent act. As the NY Times article I posted above explains, MRI's of "healthy" (i.e. asymptomatic) arms and shoulders show accumulative abnormalities regardless of whether the arm/shoulder hurts at that moment. As Josh wisely says: "pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless." Whether this violent act leads, five feet or five hundred miles down the road, to a debilitating injury is not always predictable or inevitable. But, as Johnny Mathis once sang, "Chances are..."

The best simple advice any young pitcher can follow is...

-work hard and maintain fitness
-get proper instruction
-listen to your growing body--discomfort/pain is a signal to be heeded
-eat when hungry
-rest when tired
-don't overdo it

And here are my own personal opinions, based on nothing more than a very limited set of experiences:

-there's no need to throw a curve ball before you're 15 years old and there's every reason to develop a change-up as early as possible
-take some time off from baseball every year
-play other sports--at least recreationally--on a regular basis
-have fun

More interesting reading:

Prevention of arm injury in youth baseball pitchers.

Kerut EK, Kerut DG, Fleisig GS, Andrews JR.

J La State Med Soc. 2008 Mar-Apr;160(2):95-8.

Abstract
The advent of youth year-round baseball has come with an increased incidence of pitching related injury and surgery, most notably involving the shoulder and elbow (ulnar collateral ligament). These injuries become evident in high school and college, but begin at the youth level. Several studies have identified baseball pitching risk factors during youth that increase likelihood for injury and surgery in subsequent years. Based on these studies, the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee has published guidelines for pitching that include limits on pitch count and pitches per week and season as well as recommendations for number of rest days between pitching. Also, recommendations include the restriction of breaking balls prior to puberty, the importance of instruction for proper pitching mechanics as early as possible in development, and at least three months of rest after a season…

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18681352

quote:

I can't speak for anyone else but only my opinion.
I live in FL, where often children play all year long. Others live in states where they get only a certain time of year to play. At 8 it wasn't LL, it was khoury league, and you pitched. My husband took him out of coach pitch because he wanted him to learn how to pitch at a young age.

I am saying I feel it wasn't necessary, and sorry that he didn't wait until later. I feel son threw unnecessarily at a young age.

Not sure why that is so hard a concept to ingest.

I live in California and there is a great temptation to play all year round with travel teams. So far son and I are able to resist that and just play in the LL. A lot of the travel teams will advertize that son should join, learn about holding base runners as a pitcher, bigger field, etc.. When son went on to the 60/90 big field last season, he balked twice in a row with runners on 2nd and 3rd, trying to hold the runners. It turned out that there were the only 2 runs he gave up in that game. Reason - this was the first time he was doing it. Consequences - immaterial, so what he lost that game. By end of the season, he had learned to step his hind leg of the rubber first before doing anything. What I am trying to tell parents is that don't jump the gun too much, kids will learn and continue to learn. So what if a kid learn how to hold a runner at 10. Would it make a difference compared to my son learning it at 13? Most likely not. Same with CB, sliders, cutters, etc.. However it is hard to resist the temptation as most parents would like their kids to get better fast and grow up fast and take it too seriously. Son play basketball, volleyball, football, track and field, s****r, swimming and just about any sports he could lay his hands/feet on in middle school. So this prevent us from focusing too narrowly on just baseball at such an early age.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by J H:
pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless.


No matter the particular age, body, fitness level, strength, flexibility, genetics, training, etc. of a specific individual, pitching a baseball is a unnatural, violent act. As the NY Times article I posted above explains, MRI's of "healthy" (i.e. asymptomatic) arms and shoulders show accumulative abnormalities regardless of whether the arm/shoulder hurts at that moment. As Josh wisely says: "pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless." Whether this violent act leads, five feet or five hundred miles down the road, to a debilitating injury is not always predictable or inevitable. But, as Johnny Mathis once sang, "Chances are..."

The best simple advice any young pitcher can follow is...

-work hard and maintain fitness
-get proper instruction
-listen to your growing body--discomfort/pain is a signal to be heeded
-eat when hungry
-rest when tired
-don't overdo it

And here are my own personal opinions, based on nothing more than a very limited set of experiences:

-there's no need to throw a curve ball before you're 15 years old and there's every reason to develop a change-up as early as possible
-take some time off from baseball every year
-play other sports--at least recreationally--on a regular basis
-have fun

Good read.

I and others have been offering basically the same parental advice for years as bball123 has suggested above. For some reason there is always an argument, not even discussion, just arguements from the same.

I am not involved in the game as a professional and neither are most here, but if I was seeking some good advice for my young pitcher, it would be from someone who has coached higher successful profile players or those that are in college or involved in the professional game at some capacity. That could be but not limited to MLB scouts, agents, or someone like Jerry Ford who has probably seen almost every top young pro pitcher who pitched at some point.

Those that have experienced major surgeries TJ or shoulder add good advice as to what they did (or son did), and how they would change things, with keeping in mind that all bodies develop differently and that most pitchers do not reach their peak performance and physical maturity until they are in their 20's. Some of these folks have also had face to face advice and conversations with some of the best doctors in the field of sports medicine. When a high profile doctor tells you as a player that IHO that you began the game too early, what more proof do you need to understand that maybe it wasn't all that important at 8,9 and just maybe even if everything your folks thought they were doing was right now with that scar on your elbow or shoulder and months of rehab and lost time you may have started a bit too early.

I don't give a cr ap about the scientific proof.

I would not accept explanations on what works and what doesn't from those that proclaim themselves to be self appointed professionals. In other words their scope of experience doesn't go past being a parent of a player that has not reached any level after HS, not yet secured a college commitment or scholarship and actually pitched 3-4 years minimum past HS to actually understand that no matter what, injuries will at some point strike. FWIW, all baseball players have some type of injury along the way, it's inevitable. It just is a bit more devastating for pitchers to have to take 10-12 months off for surgery for elbow or shoulder because there is always someone to take your place, no matter how good you were before. The only time you get multiple chances to prove your worth is if you have a team that has invested millions.

Pitchers that are injured are released from college programs as well as the professional ranks, every year. In this day and age, with the competition being as it is, not too many get second chances.

We brought our pitcher up on common sense. You don't have to be a rocket scientist or read major scientific publications to figure it all out. No year round bb, FB and change up development and use before cb or sliders, good mechanics, limited time on mound as a youth (bring it on when it really counts in HS) and a good amount of time away from it as well by participating in other sports (as metnied above), etc.

Son played less BB (and all positions when not pitching) than many that post here, be aware he did sustain injury, it is inevitable. Nothing major, set him back a bit. Ironically he throws HARD yet he has had less issues than RHP collegues/friends of his that throw with less intensity. Pitchers that throw hard are more suseptible to injury because they are used more often as young adults.
Even mlb teams are now taking their high velo guys and placing them in the pen when they move them up to the big leagues first year or maybe two.

Remarkable, son is still in the game.

Parents of young pitchers, please, please, do your homework, let your parental instinct (protecting your child as you would for anything else) guide you to make the right decisions.

TPM,
Sometimes parents who are aggressively developing their still-young players ("I'm real careful. I never let him pitch both ends of the doubleheader when the temperature gets above 105") remind me of the joke about the optimist who fell off the Empire State Building. As he passed the 30th floor, he yelled out, "I'm all right so far!"

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
TPM,
Sometimes parents who are aggressively developing their still-young players ("I'm real careful. I never let him pitch both ends of the doubleheader when the temperature gets above 105") remind me of the joke about the optimist who fell off the Empire State Building. As he passed the 30th floor, he yelled out, "I'm all right so far!"

I hear ya. I hear all the time how careful parents are, but every once in a while those stories surface. For example, "my son plays two leagues at 12 but he only pitches on one, the other he catches".

Pretty funny, Swampboy.

I was out on my customary 6-mile bike ride yesterday and rode past the ballfield. There was a group of what appeared to be 8-year olds warming up. I rode by a dad who was talking on his cell phone.

His exact words as I rode by: "You know he's the best player on this team, right?"

And so the insantity continues.

Classic, "my son at 8 had the best ERA (or BA) in his league".

I mean honestly, is that important and who cares!

All I am saying is that injury is caused by overuse. Almost every poster here has had a pitcher that at one point or another was overused, otherwise they would all be pain and injury free.

Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on. Becauae all pitchers have to start pitching at some point, it all cones down to how much they are overused, how well conditioned they are, genetic structure and mechanics, and smarts.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:

Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on.

Thanks for letting us know.



I am extremely busy nowadays, especially with the added responsibility of strengthening my arm after I had surgery from Dr. Andrews, who told me that starting to pitch at the age of 9 most likely had a direct correlation with the tear of my UCL. But, if anyone does have some spare time, I invite you to pose this question on the ASMI message boards:

"Does the age at which one starts to pitch potentially have a bearing on if they will be injured later on?"

I have a hunch, Skylark, that you may not like the responses you see.

But then again, you probably wouldn't listen to them either. They haven't coached your son and his friends like you have...and that experience is infinitely more accurate.


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:

Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on.

Thanks for letting us know.



I am extremely busy nowadays, especially with the added responsibility of strengthening my arm after I had surgery from Dr. Andrews, who told me that starting to pitch at the age of 9 most likely had a direct correlation with the tear of my UCL. But, if anyone does have some spare time, I invite you to pose this question on the ASMI message boards:

"Does the age at which one starts to pitch potentially have a bearing on if they will be injured later on?"

I have a hunch, Skylark, that you may not like the responses you see.

But then again, you probably wouldn't listen to them either. They haven't coached your son and his friends like you have...and that experience is infinitely more accurate.


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Your injuries were because you overused your arm, pkain and simple. Your doctor even said it was from years of overuse. You can interpret it anyway you like, maybe even blame it on starting too youn but the teuth rwmaibs it was from overuse.

Perhaps you need to ask the real question-

Can a pitcher start pitching in little league and follow all the guidelibes of low pitch counts, proper teaching, at least 4-6 months off and still be around later on to pitch in high school and beyond?

Your dr. Andrews sure puts his sanction on it otherwise he wouldnt of made the recomendations in the first pkace.

I find it interesting that we both know that overuse is what leads to injury yet you want to keep arguing this point about the age when they start as if it plays the large role in injury prevention. Let me ask you this- Do you think my son damaged his arm by pitching for. 4 Montha the first year he pitched and then had the next 8 months off?

Skylark,

I just looked up JH's stats. In high school, he threw 52.2 innings as a junior and 36 as a senior. It appears he threw on short rest one time as a junior.

In college, he threw 20.1 innings as a freshman, 38.1 as a soph, and 50.0 as a junior.

He blew out his UCL early in the summer after his junior year.

In light of these moderate workloads, please explain how you know "overuse" (using your definition which does not recognize early starts to pitching careers as a component of overuse) caused his injury. Please tell us your basis for contradicting the judgment of the world's most pre-eminent baseball orthopedist, who has actually examined JH in person and operated on him. What overuse are you referring to and how can you associate it with his injury?

Josh,
Are you sure you're really a pitcher? Compared to a lot of guys I've seen, this looks like it might be an UNDER-USE injury. I think your UCL went bad because it rusted, got brittle, and then busted when you finally did wander out to the mound one day.

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
Skylark,

I just looked up JH's stats. In high school, he threw 52.2 innings as a junior and 36 as a senior. It appears he threw on short rest one time as a junior.

In college, he threw 20.1 innings as a freshman, 38.1 as a soph, and 50.0 as a junior.

He blew out his UCL early in the summer after his junior year.

In light of these moderate workloads, please explain how you know "overuse" (using your definition which does not recognize early starts to pitching careers as a component of overuse) caused his injury. Please tell us your basis for contradicting the judgment of the world's most pre-eminent baseball orthopedist, who has actually examined JH in person and operated on him. What overuse are you referring to and how can you associate it with his injury?

Josh,
Are you sure you're really a pitcher? Compared to a lot of guys I've seen, this looks like it might be an UNDER-USE injury. I think your UCL went bad because it rusted, got brittle, and then busted when you finally did wander out to the mound one day.

Swampboy, I certainly cant soeak fir Josh. All I am going off of is what he stated about what his doctor told him- that it was many years of overuse. I dont know what leagues Josh all played in besides his hs and college leagues. I am sure he played more baseball than just the short high school and college seasobs. Ask Josh if you really want to know. I am just stating what he has already said- that his doctor said the injury occurred from many years of overuse. Usually ,overuse" means specifically "pitching too much".

Guess we read it differently. I thought JH reported Andrews saying there was most likely a connection between his injury and starting to pitch at age 9.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on.

It is impossible for a youth pitcher to both receive proper pitching instruction AND have clean mechanics. Impossible.

You can teach a young pitcher how to pitch, but the fact is no matter how you teach him his young body can't comprehend the fluidness, the kinetic chain, that is required for velocity. They simply don't have that mature physical control over their body yet.

So they cheat.

The young pitcher learns to torque his shoulder in such a way to glean that extra bit of velocity. Learns that slurves and knuckleballs and college sliders get people out. But at what price?

True pitching is a difficult art. Same arm speed, same slot, same follow through. You can't teach that to a young pitcher, no matter how hard you try.

This is why young pitchers accumulate damage. They cheat. Usually to please dads like you.