High School Baseball

Steve A. posted:

Your team would probably beat my team in the short run but I would probably churn out more high end polished pitchers. Just a different approach & your ego would feel better  but I would sleep better knowing I churned out kids who could think for themselves, were accountable & had no fear of a big spot. In the end with 99% of HS kids not moving on to a next level, I feel this is a better approach. You feel different but i think you should try it in a soft scenario just to see what happens. The results may surprise you. All good & enjoy the dialogue.    

Eh. We'll agree to disagree on the polished pitchers part. 

Ironically, I don't even call pitches any more. I found a guy (who played pro ball!) and hired him and turned the whole pitching program over to him, because he's a lot more knowledgeable than me at it, and it frees me up a lot during games and practice. He does a great job of creating thinking pitchers.

And we had a freshman start behind the dish this year. My goal is to get him to where he can call a game by his junior year, so believe me, we're not as far apart as you think.

roothog66 posted:

PGStaff posted:

Truth is the one guy that knows what pitch is most likely to work... is the pitcher in most situations.  It's not every day that a pitcher has complete command of all his pitches.  He knows what pitch he wants to throw and has the most confidence in.  That is the pitch I would want him to throw.  It is more important for him to throw the pitch he feels best about, than the one I feel best about.  The second guy that knows what pitch is likely to work best... is the catcher, provided he isn't a dunce.

At the same time, often the coach knows his players and feels extra confident his pitcher will perform whatever pitch is called.

But IMO even when the coach is calling the pitches, there has to be some leeway given to the catcher and mostly the pitcher to change that pitch.  That is if the coach has people at those positions that he trusts. 

If all of this sounds like I'm on both sides of the fence about this, it is because I am.  I do think in a few isolated cases, coaches are calling pitches just because others are doing it and some have no idea of what they are doing. Might as well be pulling the pitch call out of a hat. However, especially at the higher levels, there are coaches that are great at it. All those that call pitches, just like all those that throw pitches, are not created equal.

Exactly. When it's the case that a pitcher isn't comfortable with a pitch I'm calling, he needs to be able to shake it off. If he continues to be uncomfortable with certain pitches in certain situations, then I need to adjust my pitch calling based on his comfort level. There does have to be some give-and-take.

This makes total sense to me so you had better reevaluate everything you are doing...

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

Your team would probably beat my team in the short run but I would probably churn out more high end polished pitchers. Just a different approach & your ego would feel better  but I would sleep better knowing I churned out kids who could think for themselves, were accountable & had no fear of a big spot. In the end with 99% of HS kids not moving on to a next level, I feel this is a better approach. You feel different but i think you should try it in a soft scenario just to see what happens. The results may surprise you. All good & enjoy the dialogue.    

Eh. We'll agree to disagree on the polished pitchers part. 

Ironically, I don't even call pitches any more. I found a guy (who played pro ball!) and hired him and turned the whole pitching program over to him, because he's a lot more knowledgeable than me at it, and it frees me up a lot during games and practice. He does a great job of creating thinking pitchers.

And we had a freshman start behind the dish this year. My goal is to get him to where he can call a game by his junior year, so believe me, we're not as far apart as you think.

 

 

Ok, great. I am available if you have a spot open on the staff...lol. Hey, good luck & I look forward to mixing it up with you soon. Plus, it's boring if we agree on everything anyway.

Kandkfunk,

I agree most HS teams will scout some teams ahead of time, but I’ve never seen or heard of it for ALL opponents. If the schools in your area have the staff and capability to do it, I think it’s great.

You said you play 2-3 game series with every team. That’s a lot different than it is here or most other places I’m familiar with. The only teams we play more than once a season, other than the spring tournament or the playoffs, are league opponents.

I honestly don’t see how it takes just as long for the battery to call pitches as it does for them to be sent in from the dugout. It’s not as though most HS pitchers have a huge repertoire of pitches to choose from, but perhaps the kid you’re talking about does.

The issue really boils down to the philosophy of the HC because there’s no way to prove either side of the argument other than to change philosophies and compare them. Having been a catcher and having had a son who pitched under both philosophies, I can say without question that the game is more fun, success more satisfying, and development stronger for those who don’t get pitches called from the dugout. Whether or not that equates to winning is something different though.

Watch the defense players adjusting to the coaches requests. In Canberra a few years ago our American HS team playing the Aussies. Our "struggling" hitter had no clue to the pitch location.

I mentioned "would you like to know what is pitch location"? He said yes. I mentioned did you notice the CF moving to 5 steps to his left. "where do you think the pitch will be"?

The young man was not aware that the pitch would be outside. PREDICTABLE!

Every at bat, every pitch is a "learning experience". The 6th Tool.

Bob

Stats4Gnats posted:

Kandkfunk,

 

I agree most HS teams will scout some teams ahead of time, but I’ve never seen or heard of it for ALL opponents. If the schools in your area have the staff and capability to do it, I think it’s great.

 

You said you play 2-3 game series with every team. That’s a lot different than it is here or most other places I’m familiar with. The only teams we play more than once a season, other than the spring tournament or the playoffs, are league opponents.

 

I honestly don’t see how it takes just as long for the battery to call pitches as it does for them to be sent in from the dugout. It’s not as though most HS pitchers have a huge repertoire of pitches to choose from, but perhaps the kid you’re talking about does.

 

The issue really boils down to the philosophy of the HC because there’s no way to prove either side of the argument other than to change philosophies and compare them. Having been a catcher and having had a son who pitched under both philosophies, I can say without question that the game is more fun, success more satisfying, and development stronger for those who don’t get pitches called from the dugout. Whether or not that equates to winning is something different though.

1. All is a big word. We don't scout non-district games. But district we'll scout every team (except for the 1 that simply isn't competitive) before the first time we play them. We play everyone twice. 

2. Sign from coach is given very quickly, usually as the hitter has foot out of the box or 3b coach is giving signs. So the extra time spent by the defense is fairly minuscule.

cabbagedad posted:

Well, Stats, I'm certainly not surprised that you came through with yet another thinly veiled insult with your "many VALID reasons or many reasons? wink, wink" remark.

Why are you so paranoid about me and sure that I’m out to do nothing but insult and troll? Are you trying to say all the reason for pitches getting called from the dugout would be found valid if they were tested? Perhaps you do feel that way, but why can’t I feel differently?

Interesting that you give HS P's virtually no credit for being able to reasonably locate pitches yet you are a consistent proponent of giving HS catchers the added responsibility of calling pitches.  What does the catcher have to keep track of otherwise?  Total awareness of and holding runners, framing fringe pitches, communicate signs to IF's for backpicks, properly anticipate and block balls in the dirt, field bunts and be field general on those he can't get, position cuts and make split second cut/relay decisions early enough, back up IF throws to first situationally, help IF's on pop flies near fence, maintain a stream of communication from the dugout, relay defensive plays, be in tune with P and help keep him in best possible mindset to perform, maintain a favorable working relationship with PU, just to name a few. 

I said nothing about all pitchers not being able to “reasonably locate pitches”. You seem to constantly forget that as a whole, HS pitchers don’t meet the same standards as the top pitchers in the country. Heck, I’ve scored for teams with great pitching staffs, but the 4-5-6 guys can’t be compared to the 1&2 in almost any way, but especially in being able to hit locations accurate and often.

I won’t argue that the catcher has one Hell of a lot of things to do. What I would argue is whether or not those things would suffer if the catcher was calling pitches.

Calling pitches brings into account the added tasks of knowing hitter tendencies, identifying holes in swing, seeing hitter's timing on previous pitches, knowing situationally what offense is trying to execute and calling pitches to defend that, awareness of what pitches are working for that P that day, calling pitches and locations that are count and situation appropriate, recalling history of better hitters from past seasons and earlier games, etc., etc.

Perhaps I’ve just not had the privilege of scoring for a coach of your quality so I have nothing to compare what you’re saying too. But I have scored for and against some damned good ones, and haven’t seen what you’re alluding to on the scale you’re suggesting it happens. What you’re suggesting for HS is what generally takes place in ML dugouts where there’s a lot more of everything.

But I'm sure you are right.  We should have all HS catchers call the games.  Boy, HS catchers must be WAY smarter, more advanced and more competent than HS pitchers. 

What do you think would happen if NFHS made a rule that said pitches could not be sent in and everyone had the integrity to follow that rule? My guess is the smart coaches would figger out a way to teach their catchers how to fit calling pitches in with all their other duties, the way I and every other catcher was taught back when calling pitches was done by the catchers.

The catcher has, by far, the most responsibilities on the field.  As others have pointed out, some of the better ones can also call a good game.  But even those aren't in the position to take into account everything in a given situation as well as a qualified coach who is specifically tasked to do so.  Typically, neither are perfect.  Most often, one puts the HS team in a better position to win and the teenage HS P and C in a better position to play and execute to the best of their abilities.  

Reading that, your answer to the above scenario seems to be you saying every team would win less which is impossible.

The large majority of better HS and college programs call pitches from the dugout.  If only they had someone smarter than them, like you, to help them realize the error in their ways...  Don't you have a database of all HC's stored somewhere?  Maybe you can send them all a wink, wink.

Why does it always have to be a war between you and I? All I’m doing is expressing an opinion that’s shared by many other people, just as yours is. So why is it that it always me who’s being insulting and condescending to coaches, and never having a shred of truth in anything he says?

I never said I was smarter than anyone! It’s you who’s contending that all coaches are smarter than anyone who isn’t.

And FWIW, I have contacted quite a few HS and college coaches and discussed this topic with them. Not one has ever come across as being insulted because they don’t have a built in predisposition to believe I’m calling them stupid or incompetent. It’s simply a different opinion, and I’m sorry if mine has insulted you yet again.

Overthehill posted:

…3.  I agree with the positioning of infielders and outfielders from pitch to pitch that the catcher may not be aware of.  One coach was moving fielders and the other was sending in the pitch….

Did hitters ever notice the fielders moving and adjust accordingly?

ironhorse posted:

Stats4Gnats posted:

Kandkfunk,

 

I agree most HS teams will scout some teams ahead of time, but I’ve never seen or heard of it for ALL opponents. If the schools in your area have the staff and capability to do it, I think it’s great.

 

You said you play 2-3 game series with every team. That’s a lot different than it is here or most other places I’m familiar with. The only teams we play more than once a season, other than the spring tournament or the playoffs, are league opponents.

 

I honestly don’t see how it takes just as long for the battery to call pitches as it does for them to be sent in from the dugout. It’s not as though most HS pitchers have a huge repertoire of pitches to choose from, but perhaps the kid you’re talking about does.

 

The issue really boils down to the philosophy of the HC because there’s no way to prove either side of the argument other than to change philosophies and compare them. Having been a catcher and having had a son who pitched under both philosophies, I can say without question that the game is more fun, success more satisfying, and development stronger for those who don’t get pitches called from the dugout. Whether or not that equates to winning is something different though.

1. All is a big word. We don't scout non-district games. But district we'll scout every team (except for the 1 that simply isn't competitive) before the first time we play them. We play everyone twice. 

2. Sign from coach is given very quickly, usually as the hitter has foot out of the box or 3b coach is giving signs. So the extra time spent by the defense is fairly minuscule.

We're much like Ironhorse describes. I never said we scouted ALL teams. That was your word Stats.  We don't generally scout non-district games, but we don't have a lot of those - maybe 5.  We see the same kids throughout the year from Spring to summer baseball. It's not really hard to gather data over the course of time. I'm honestly not sure what is so controversial about that.

I'm not hear to argue either way. It's not my call and I have no preference. Someone asked a question. I answered with my experience and what I see in every single varsity game. Some people just like to argue and point out why everyone else is wrong. So be it.

PGStaff posted:

…If all of this sounds like I'm on both sides of the fence about this, it is because I am.  I do think in a few isolated cases, coaches are calling pitches just because others are doing it and some have no idea of what they are doing. Might as well be pulling the pitch call out of a hat. However, especially at the higher levels, there are coaches that are great at it. All those that call pitches, just like all those that throw pitches, are not created equal.

Very very true! And something that skews any argument on this topic in a forum like this is that those posters who have been around the longest are generally the best examples of “good” coaches and coaching practices. The problem is, when talking about ALL HS’s, we’re talking about more than 30,000 teams. That makes it ludicrous to believe ALL teams where coaches are calling pitches are doing it the way the best coaches here say they do it!

No matter what anyone wants to believe, there is an “average” coach just like there’s an average player or an average anything else for that matter. So even if the average coach is pretty darn good, that’s gonna leave a lot of cases where what people see isn’t very good, so it’s not at all unreasonable to believe someone can easily come across a program where things aren’t being done the best way possible.

That doesn’t mean there aren’t a whole lot of top notch coaches out there doing things the right way for the right reason, but it does make it prudent to believe all the good reasons for doing it and the way it should be done aren’t happening everywhere. So it shouldn’t be considered heresy or some kind of insult for someone to not just go with the flow.

Stats4Gnats posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Well, Stats, I'm certainly not surprised that you came through with yet another thinly veiled insult with your "many VALID reasons or many reasons? wink, wink" remark.

 

Why are you so paranoid about me and sure that I’m out to do nothing but insult and troll? ...

Why does it always have to be a war between you and I? ...

Paranoid would indicate irrational and unsubstantiated.  You have been booted from this site and nearly booted again on more than one occasion for this very thing.  You have clearly stood in a class all by yourself with getting into these types of arguments with other posters here over the years.  There are at least dozens of respected long time contributors who generally interpret your comments the exact same way as I do.  I have also been told by others that you have the same reputation on other sites. 

I'll just stick to just defending the initial insult and move on.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Overthehill posted:

Did hitters ever notice the fielders moving and adjust accordingly?

 

Not sure exactly what is being implied here but if, for example,  a soft pitch is being sent from the dugout & the players are shifting as the sign is given I would love to hit against this team.... Leaning to the hole at short on a RH Hitter with a changeup on the way is good baseball. Moving a step in the hole after the sign is given is bad baseball. You are tipping pitches. 

 

Hi Coach, I do not think you have misunderstood some of what my point is. I will boil it down to this: If winning is the #1 Priority for a HS Coach, then absolutely yes, if he has a clue, the team would likely have a better chance to win if he calls pitches. If developing the pitcher is the motive, then absolutely without question letting him shake & throw his own game is the way to go. This is my OPINION that happens to be shared by many with vastly more experience than myself or anyone else probably posting here. I offered it & suggested that the coaching ego is the primary factor in determining which side of this fence you fall on. Ironhorse told me I was "ignorant." Now, I am ignorant on many things but I am not ignorant on this topic.

Just so you know I'm a high school athletic director and to be perfectly honest if the HS coach isn't winning then there's a chance we may go a different route.  So winning is a priority but also being HS and coaches are dealt the hand they are dealt it's not number one priority.  Are they helping to produce good young men and do they act in a way that represents our school positively will help a coach keep their job but yes their win / loss record can play into if they will keep their job or not.  

Whether you mean to or not I'm taking most of your posts as it's one way or the other.  HS coaches are either looking to win and not develop VS just looking to develop.  Overall with most HS coaches they want to do all three - win, develop good ball players and develop good people. None of those are mutually exclusive of each other.  That's what I tried to do when I was a head coach and that's what our overall philosophy is at my school for all athletics.  The whole question of who develops more college / pro ready players is really a loaded question because there's only so much you can get out of someone based on natural God - given talent.

*********EDITED TO ADD***********

Also, I see nothing wrong with an ego.  I have an ego and every good coach has one.  Even bad ones have egos.  Yes part of my ego is tied up in wins and losses.  I want to win and I want people to to know I won.  But my ego is also tied up into developing players.  I want to develop guys in college or pro prospects.  I want people to know those kids came from my program.  Lastly, my ego is tied up in these guys becoming fine young men.  I want people to know if you leave my program you may never play baseball again but you're someone you can hire or will support a family.  Once again there's no reason both sides of the fence can't be accomplished here.

cabbagedad posted:…I'll just stick to just defending the initial insult and move on.

I can’t do anything about how anyone interprets what someone else writes, but I will say there was no insult intended. I made the observation that there is a difference between reasons and valid reasons, that’s all. You seem to be insisting that any reason is a valid one and I don't buy that.

ironhorse posted:

I never get why this is such a "hot button" for people. Why do they think a HS kid should be calling games? I've had 2 catchers go D1 the past few years, and never did a coach asked if they called their own game. If a college catcher can receive and rake, I don't see him dropping 15 rounds based on the fact his coaches called the game.

I'm not sure anyone cares as much as message boards.

I can't speak for anyone else.  I wanted to teach my catchers how to call a game because I thought that was my responsibility as a coach.  I view it no differently than teaching the various pivots for 2B and SS on a double play.  I never wanted to have a player of mine graduate thinking that I didn't take the time to really teach them the game of baseball. 

Example for yesterday.  We were playing in our Regional game yesterday and the opponent had a runner on 2B signaling location.  My catcher walked out in front of the plate, stuck her hand into the front of her face mask and moved it back and forth as if saying "no" but not moving her head.  That is a signal that her set up does not matter.  The pitcher will now throw to locations off of her body like off of either ear or top of either shin guard.   Pitcher now reads signal of 3 signs with second sign being location regardless of where catcher sets up.  She set up slightly outside and pitcher busted inside rise for a soft popup to first.  Out of the inning and we were all laughing in the dugout. 

All coaches should have this approach to the game.  Teach the kids how to play!!

I reviewed the posts on here and with few exception this is a summary of what I believe are the points of agreement.

1. At the high school varsity level coaches are expected to place their teams in the best position to win
2. At the high school varsity level coaches are supposed to accomplish this while developing players to improve the odds of winning consistently as a program
3. These objectives are not mutually exclusive
4. At the high school varsity level coaches work with the pool of players that attend that school
5. Based on the quality of youth programs, travel programs, middle school, freshman and JV programs in the area the level of that pool of players is hugely diverse.
6. Some catcher are capable, at some point in their HS Varsity career both by baseball acumen and psychological make-up of calling games on their own and achieving # 1 and #2
7. Some catchers as not capable,  at some point in their HS Varsity career both by baseball acumen and /or psychological make-up of calling games on their own and achieving # 1 and #2
8. Communication between the coach/sand the pitching staff and the catching staff helps the coaches know where individual players fall in spectrum of skills, knowledge and capabilities.

With these common understandings the answer to the question is like most answers to strategy question in baseball...IT DEPENDS.  Do you bunt a player from first to second with 0 outs?...IT DEPENDS,  do you play the infield up with 1 out and a man on 3rd? IT DEPENDS...do you play outfielders "no doubles" in the last inning with no one on base and a 1 run lead? IT DEPENDS. 

This is why they're are coach's.  Someone has to make decisions regarding all of the IT DEPENDS moments that impact players, games and programs.  No two coaches will always make the same decisions in any given scenario.  At the end of the day the beauty of baseball is that it is alive...what was "right" in the 1920's (Like letting pitchers throw 200 pitches in a day) would be considered crazy today and frankly I did not see a lot of "shifts" against Ruth or Aaron...the game changes and the best coaches and players adapt. 

IMHO, trying to argue that there is a definitive right or wrong to this topic is like teaching a pig to dance...it embarrasses you and annoys the pig...I LOVE BASEBALL!!!!!

coach2709 posted:

 

Hi Coach, I do not think you have misunderstood some of what my point is. I will boil it down to this: If winning is the #1 Priority for a HS Coach, then absolutely yes, if he has a clue, the team would likely have a better chance to win if he calls pitches. If developing the pitcher is the motive, then absolutely without question letting him shake & throw his own game is the way to go. This is my OPINION that happens to be shared by many with vastly more experience than myself or anyone else probably posting here. I offered it & suggested that the coaching ego is the primary factor in determining which side of this fence you fall on. Ironhorse told me I was "ignorant." Now, I am ignorant on many things but I am not ignorant on this topic.

Just so you know I'm a high school athletic director and to be perfectly honest if the HS coach isn't winning then there's a chance we may go a different route.  So winning is a priority but also being HS and coaches are dealt the hand they are dealt it's not number one priority.  Are they helping to produce good young men and do they act in a way that represents our school positively will help a coach keep their job but yes their win / loss record can play into if they will keep their job or not.  

Whether you mean to or not I'm taking most of your posts as it's one way or the other.  HS coaches are either looking to win and not develop VS just looking to develop.  Overall with most HS coaches they want to do all three - win, develop good ball players and develop good people. None of those are mutually exclusive of each other.  That's what I tried to do when I was a head coach and that's what our overall philosophy is at my school for all athletics.  The whole question of who develops more college / pro ready players is really a loaded question because there's only so much you can get out of someone based on natural God - given talent.

*********EDITED TO ADD***********

Also, I see nothing wrong with an ego.  I have an ego and every good coach has one.  Even bad ones have egos.  Yes part of my ego is tied up in wins and losses.  I want to win and I want people to to know I won.  But my ego is also tied up into developing players.  I want to develop guys in college or pro prospects.  I want people to know those kids came from my program.  Lastly, my ego is tied up in these guys becoming fine young men.  I want people to know if you leave my program you may never play baseball again but you're someone you can hire or will support a family.  Once again there's no reason both sides of the fence can't be accomplished here.

 

Very rational. Makes sense & I understand the perspective. I feel that if the MS Program & JV Program allowed the pitcher / catcher to steer the ship a bit (call & shake pitches), you would have Varsity Players with a far superior understanding of the game & ultimately superior players to those who just nod their head for 7 years & are told how to do it by a coach.

My opinion, again, opinion, is that yes, winning is important & the goal of the team. I get that. I can tell you that the vast majority of people you may think are impressed by your winning really could not care less. What does matter, ultimately, is the quality of individual your program produces, as you admit. I am simply suggesting that this individual would be better suited to tackle life after your program if they were trusted to think for themselves in pressure situations. There is not going to be a coach calling pitches for him in his job interview when he has to think for himself. The coach will not be there to call pitches for him when he is faced with a difficult scenario at work or in everyday life.

I employ 6 people. I can tell you that the ones who come to me every 5 minutes asking me to solve their problem (having done nothing on their own) are the ones who do not last. The ones who take the initiative, are not afraid to fail & like to "call their own game," are the stars. The others are generally yes men with limited creativity who are still looking for the coach to call the pitches. 

MDBallDad posted:

I reviewed the posts on here and with few exception this is a summary of what I believe are the points of agreement.

1. At the high school varsity level coaches are expected to place their teams in the best position to win
2. At the high school varsity level coaches are supposed to accomplish this while developing players to improve the odds of winning consistently as a program
3. These objectives are not mutually exclusive
4. At the high school varsity level coaches work with the pool of players that attend that school
5. Based on the quality of youth programs, travel programs, middle school, freshman and JV programs in the area the level of that pool of players is hugely diverse.
6. Some catcher are capable, at some point in their HS Varsity career both by baseball acumen and psychological make-up of calling games on their own and achieving # 1 and #2
7. Some catchers as not capable,  at some point in their HS Varsity career both by baseball acumen and /or psychological make-up of calling games on their own and achieving # 1 and #2
8. Communication between the coach/sand the pitching staff and the catching staff helps the coaches know where individual players fall in spectrum of skills, knowledge and capabilities.

With these common understandings the answer to the question is like most answers to strategy question in baseball...IT DEPENDS.  Do you bunt a player from first to second with 0 outs?...IT DEPENDS,  do you play the infield up with 1 out and a man on 3rd? IT DEPENDS...do you play outfielders "no doubles" in the last inning with no one on base and a 1 run lead? IT DEPENDS. 

This is why they're are coach's.  Someone has to make decisions regarding all of the IT DEPENDS moments that impact players, games and programs.  No two coaches will always make the same decisions in any given scenario.  At the end of the day the beauty of baseball is that it is alive...what was "right" in the 1920's (Like letting pitchers throw 200 pitches in a day) would be considered crazy today and frankly I did not see a lot of "shifts" against Ruth or Aaron...the game changes and the best coaches and players adapt. 

IMHO, trying to argue that there is a definitive right or wrong to this topic is like teaching a pig to dance...it embarrasses you and annoys the pig...I LOVE BASEBALL!!!!!

I love this response! This one of the reasons I love baseball too!

I just gotta say that numbers 4-7 are key. I am envious of the parents on here whose high schools are full of talented players. Not everyone has that luxury. Probably most schools don't have that luxury. You work with the talent and commitment level you have and you make choices about how to develop the kids to give the team the best shot.

Steve A. posted:

...

My opinion, again, opinion, is that yes, winning is important & the goal of the team. I get that. I can tell you that the vast majority of people you may think are impressed by your winning really could not care less. ..

 

Steve A, I say this knowing your background... I know you have made a run as a P in the minors and you now coach a 13u.  I predict that in four years, your perspective on this particular point will change.  HS players, parents, boosters, coaches, community supporters, AD's and others are quite interested in winning.  Do the players shake off the loss as soon as they get on the bus or in the car?  Yup, usually.  But there is a huge difference in being part of a winning program and a losing one and HS V is the level where that spotlight starts to shine.  You will come to find that it is quite different as a coach than it was as a player.  

Those same players who shake off the loss in a minute after it happens will remember very clearly 10-20-30-40 years from now if they had the big hit to win league or state or beat their big rival.  Does it matter to the rest of the world?  No.  But it will matter to each of those HS players you eventually coach over the years.  You will also find that in most HS's for most players, this is the top level, the final stop they will reach with baseball.  That's where it may take a while for you to grasp since you made it some levels beyond.  Competing and winning games at this level is the peak of their baseball careers.  It matters to them.  You will be charged with allowing for that to happen.  Along with developing high-character young men, you will want to help them in their goals to win league or state or against cross-town rival.  Letting a young catcher call your V game with that in the balance may not be quite as appealing when you are in the middle of it.  Just a prediction... 

cabbagedad posted:

Steve A. posted:

...

My opinion, again, opinion, is that yes, winning is important & the goal of the team. I get that. I can tell you that the vast majority of people you may think are impressed by your winning really could not care less. ..

 

Steve A, I say this knowing your background... I know you have made a run as a P in the minors and you now coach a 13u.  I predict that in four years, your perspective on this particular point will change.  HS players, parents, boosters, coaches, community supporters, AD's and others are quite interested in winning.  Do the players shake off the loss as soon as they get on the bus or in the car?  Yup, usually.  But there is a huge difference in being part of a winning program and a losing one and HS V is the level where that spotlight starts to shine.  You will come to find that it is quite different as a coach than it was as a player.  

Those same players who shake off the loss in a minute after it happens will remember very clearly 10-20-30-40 years from now if they had the big hit to win league or state or beat their big rival.  Does it matter to the rest of the world?  No.  But it will matter to each of those HS players you eventually coach over the years.  You will also find that in most HS's, this is the top level, the final stop they will reach with baseball.  That's where it may take a while for you to grasp since you made it some levels beyond.  Competing and winning games at this level is the peak of their baseball careers.  It matters to them.  You will be charged with allowing for that to happen.  Along with developing high-character young men, you will want to help them in their goals to win league or state or against cross-town rival.  Letting a young catcher call your V game with that in the balance may not be quite as appealing when you are in the middle of it.  Just a prediction... 

Hi Cabbage, Thanks for the response. Definitely makes sense & I appreciate the perspective. My take on it has probably been too heavily influenced by some of the coaching I have seen that has been way too heavy handed at the younger levels. Again, thanks.

Steve A. posted:

Hi Cabbage, Thanks for the response. Definitely makes sense & I appreciate the perspective. My take on it has probably been too heavily influenced by some of the coaching I have seen that has been way too heavy handed at the younger levels. Again, thanks.

I had the exact same experience and it affected not only my coaching approach but, more so, my parenting.  With my oldest son, I probably took it too far and purposely backed off in a big way with him and competitive sports.  Then, my last son surprised me when he turned out to be on the far other end of the competitive mentality.  I practically couldn't push him hard enough if I tried.  OK, by then, I sorta tried.

Oops, off topic.  Back to who should call games... I think that was the OP.  

Steve A. posted:

Very rational. Makes sense & I understand the perspective. I feel that if the MS Program & JV Program allowed the pitcher / catcher to steer the ship a bit (call & shake pitches), you would have Varsity Players with a far superior understanding of the game & ultimately superior players to those who just nod their head for 7 years & are told how to do it by a coach.

Yes if JV, MS, Travel, LL - anything before HS varsity - would do more teaching then it would be easier for us at the varsity level to turn pitch calling to catchers earlier.  But vast majority of time they do not so we have to do it if that's our philosophy.  It just takes time usually.  I don't want a head nodder and if I'm allowing him to make decisions in other aspects of the game then they won't be a head nodder in life.  It's not a black and white situation for what we turn out in the world.  A kid could have the greatest coach in the world but if he has parents that do everything for him in the rest of his life he's going to struggle in real world.

My opinion, again, opinion, is that yes, winning is important & the goal of the team. I get that. I can tell you that the vast majority of people you may think are impressed by your winning really could not care less. What does matter, ultimately, is the quality of individual your program produces, as you admit. I am simply suggesting that this individual would be better suited to tackle life after your program if they were trusted to think for themselves in pressure situations. There is not going to be a coach calling pitches for him in his job interview when he has to think for himself. The coach will not be there to call pitches for him when he is faced with a difficult scenario at work or in everyday life.

I don't care who is impressed with my win / loss record until I need it to validate my credibility.  I get a new principal then my win / loss record will go towards me keeping my job.  I want to move to a new school my win / loss record may help me get that job.  If Joe Schmo walking down the street isn't impressed with my record I don't really blame him because I don't care what his win / loss record is.  But as cabbage said wins and losses are important to the kids and that matters.  So if the kids win then so do I so my record does matter.  It may help get a kid moving in to pick my school over another one.  

The coach calling pitches for him in the job interview is trying to make a very complicated situation very simplistic.  I don't think that's a fair comparison.  I'm just a very SMALL piece of the ingredients that make a kid into a good young man who can think for himself.  If he has good parents, good teachers then he's probably going to turn out to be good and able to stand on his own even if I call every single pitch he throws.

I employ 6 people. I can tell you that the ones who come to me every 5 minutes asking me to solve their problem (having done nothing on their own) are the ones who do not last. The ones who take the initiative, are not afraid to fail & like to "call their own game," are the stars. The others are generally yes men with limited creativity who are still looking for the coach to call the pitches. 

I completely agree with this but if they are this type to ask for answers instead of figuring it out on their own probably started well before somebody called their first pitch for them.  Besides what if this guy who wants answers given to him is a right fielder?  Am I going to let him call pitches to help him learn to stand on his own?????  I'm just messing with you here but some truth to it.

 

Here's another aspect... our last five varsity program catchers were all pretty good and effective in a similar manner... athletic, good POP, could block, could receive, could hit.  Each was clearly our best option at the position at the time.  Vocal leaders?  One.  Others were anywhere from "took a few years" to "something we'll have to live without".   Thinkers capable of calling a good game?   No.  Four were not even close and didn't have the mindset to want to.  One was the thinker and he was into it.  That one, we tried to groom.  By the start of his senior year, skill set and thought process were coming around.  Torn labrum put a quick end to the process.

So, I know it's not ideal but we are not alone.  Often, in HS ball, the catcher with the best physical skills to play the position doesn't have the desired mindset.   

This will be my last on this subject (well, maybe not). My main objective & opinion here was to suggest that THE PITCHER, at (pick a level) should have the option to shake a pitch & throw his own game. This opinion has clearly met major resistance. In my opinion, the resistance has more to do with the ego of the coach calling the pitches that any other factor. You can pretend it's about winning & on & on but the truth of it is often there is more than 1 pitch that will work in a given scenario if executed properly, with conviction, by the pitcher who had an idea on the pitch before the fingers went down. You could take the 2 best HS Coaches in the Country & have them call a game with the same pitcher & scouting information & the calls would likely be much different. That's it.

My simple, basic philosophy has somehow now developed into my supposed belief that HS Quarterbacks should call their own plays, Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game. The players should be in charge of their own shifts, hit & runs, steals, bunts. I never suggested any of that. Although letting the catcher call em in soft scenarios or small doses will definitely pay dividends down the road for both him & your program. You would then have to coach him up more & discuss the results & selections.

Call your pitches all you want. Steer the ship all you want. Trust your pitcher to shake & throw his own & you will be surprised. If he gives up a rocket, get over yourself. You have called a ton of pitches that went into orbit also. It's the kids game & he will own the result way more than you will.

Well glad to see you read what we posted with an open mind.  But you probably think we are just as close minded as you.

Steve A. posted:

Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game.

You do believe this though, correct? I had a freshman varsity catcher this year. You seem to believe the reason he didn't call pitches was because of my ego. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

(And I had a freshman that threw, too, if that fits your philosophy better.)

coach2709 posted:

Well glad to see you read what we posted with an open mind.  But you probably think we are just as close minded as you.

It's all good. Not everyone sees the world the way I do. This is what makes a conversation interesting. I actually like that. It helps keep my mind "close" as you suggest.

Steve A. posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Steve A. posted:

...

My opinion, again, opinion, is that yes, winning is important & the goal of the team. I get that. I can tell you that the vast majority of people you may think are impressed by your winning really could not care less. ..

 

Steve A, I say this knowing your background... I know you have made a run as a P in the minors and you now coach a 13u.  I predict that in four years, your perspective on this particular point will change.  HS players, parents, boosters, coaches, community supporters, AD's and others are quite interested in winning.  Do the players shake off the loss as soon as they get on the bus or in the car?  Yup, usually.  But there is a huge difference in being part of a winning program and a losing one and HS V is the level where that spotlight starts to shine.  You will come to find that it is quite different as a coach than it was as a player.  

Those same players who shake off the loss in a minute after it happens will remember very clearly 10-20-30-40 years from now if they had the big hit to win league or state or beat their big rival.  Does it matter to the rest of the world?  No.  But it will matter to each of those HS players you eventually coach over the years.  You will also find that in most HS's, this is the top level, the final stop they will reach with baseball.  That's where it may take a while for you to grasp since you made it some levels beyond.  Competing and winning games at this level is the peak of their baseball careers.  It matters to them.  You will be charged with allowing for that to happen.  Along with developing high-character young men, you will want to help them in their goals to win league or state or against cross-town rival.  Letting a young catcher call your V game with that in the balance may not be quite as appealing when you are in the middle of it.  Just a prediction... 

Hi Cabbage, Thanks for the response. Definitely makes sense & I appreciate the perspective. My take on it has probably been too heavily influenced by some of the coaching I have seen that has been way too heavy handed at the younger levels. Again, thanks.

As you all know my kid is just entering 9th, so I have no knowledge of HS baseball, HOWEVER, I have a lot of knowledge of 9u-14u baseball and I can backup this statement.  I don't know how to phrase it but it's almost like the most knowledgeable coaches in youth baseball don't want to share their knowledge with an 11u kid, or a 13u kid because they don't want to take the time to explain it.  These kids aren't learning the game, they are learning to follow orders. 

I have seen a 14u pitcher pulled because he shook off ONE pitch the coach called in the third inning, the coach was furious, rather than calling time and talking to the pitcher about his choice or waiting until the inning was over the pitcher was pulled and replaced with a kid who wasn't even warmed up...doesn't sound like development. My son was a 12u 5'8, 130# player who was in 7th grade and needed a new bat in May (so he was almost an 8th grader), he asked the coach if it was okay if he got a drop 5 as opposed to a drop 10, coach said absolutely not, I want you swinging the lightest bat you are allowed to swing, again, that doesn't sound like development. 

Kids right now, for SOME coaches, seem to be learning to be automatons...don't ask questions just do what you are told.  Not sure how they are actually LEARNING the game with coaches acting like that.

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game.

You do believe this though, correct? I had a freshman varsity catcher this year. You seem to believe the reason he didn't call pitches was because of my ego. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

(And I had a freshman that threw, too, if that fits your philosophy better.)

 

Correct. Yes, your ego. Take a soft spot or opponent & let him put the fingers down for an inning or 2. So what. How bad can he really go? Then, when he calls a 2-0 changeup to the 8 hole hitter when you are up 8-0 in the 6th inning, you can discuss why this is the wrong pitch. (your frosh pitcher will probably shake it & throw a heater anyway if you let him)  They now have to think a bit for themselves at minimal risk to your team. You will find that they will throw likely more than 80% of what you would have anyway.

Steve A. posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game.

You do believe this though, correct? I had a freshman varsity catcher this year. You seem to believe the reason he didn't call pitches was because of my ego. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

(And I had a freshman that threw, too, if that fits your philosophy better.)

 

Correct. Yes, your ego. Take a soft spot or opponent & let him put the fingers down for an inning or 2. So what. How bad can he really go? Then, when he calls a 2-0 changeup to the 8 hole hitter when you are up 8-0 in the 6th inning, you can discuss why this is the wrong pitch. (your frosh pitcher will probably shake it & throw a heater anyway if you let him)  They now have to think a bit for themselves at minimal risk to your team. You will find that they will throw likely more than 80% of what you would have anyway.

See this to is what I think and what we do. But again, we pick our spots to develop him, not just let him take over handling it all right away, which is how I tool what you were advocating earlier. I'm hoping by his Junior year he can handle almost all of it. Although to be honest with this one, maybe Senior year.

To me that's not ego, it's just rational. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

 

As you all know my kid is just entering 9th, so I have no knowledge of HS baseball, HOWEVER, I have a lot of knowledge of 9u-14u baseball and I can backup this statement.  I don't know how to phrase it but it's almost like the most knowledgeable coaches in youth baseball don't want to share their knowledge with an 11u kid, or a 13u kid because they don't want to take the time to explain it.  These kids aren't learning the game, they are learning to follow orders. 

I have seen a 14u pitcher pulled because he shook off ONE pitch the coach called in the third inning, the coach was furious, rather than calling time and talking to the pitcher about his choice or waiting until the inning was over the pitcher was pulled and replaced with a kid who wasn't even warmed up...doesn't sound like development. My son was a 12u 5'8, 130# player who was in 7th grade and needed a new bat in May (so he was almost an 8th grader), he asked the coach if it was okay if he got a drop 5 as opposed to a drop 10, coach said absolutely not, I want you swinging the lightest bat you are allowed to swing, again, that doesn't sound like development. 

Kids right now, for SOME coaches, seem to be learning to be automatons...don't ask questions just do what you are told.  Not sure how they are actually LEARNING the game with coaches acting like that.

CaCo, Amen sister! Seen way too much of it. These coaches are chasing the plastic trophy as a monument to themselves under the shield of "winning" & putting development secondary. My kid has a closet full of these trinkets, medallions & plastic statues. At the time of the event, it was the most important thing in the world. Two days later nobody really cares.

This is why when Ironhorse & 2079 get these kids in HS they are reluctant to trust them to call the shots. I get that. Somebody has to step up at some point & teach the game & let these kids make a mistake. It's not the end of the world if they get it wrong.

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game.

You do believe this though, correct? I had a freshman varsity catcher this year. You seem to believe the reason he didn't call pitches was because of my ego. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

(And I had a freshman that threw, too, if that fits your philosophy better.)

 

Correct. Yes, your ego. Take a soft spot or opponent & let him put the fingers down for an inning or 2. So what. How bad can he really go? Then, when he calls a 2-0 changeup to the 8 hole hitter when you are up 8-0 in the 6th inning, you can discuss why this is the wrong pitch. (your frosh pitcher will probably shake it & throw a heater anyway if you let him)  They now have to think a bit for themselves at minimal risk to your team. You will find that they will throw likely more than 80% of what you would have anyway.

See this to is what I think and what we do. But again, we pick our spots to develop him, not just let him take over handling it all right away, which is how I tool what you were advocating earlier. I'm hoping by his Junior year he can handle almost all of it. Although to be honest with this one, maybe Senior year.

To me that's not ego, it's just rational. 

Holy smokes I think we agree! Have a great Holiday weekend.

Caco3girl,

You may be right and that coach, and certainly most coaches including myself, could always do a better job explaining things.  You know me, I like to offer other possibilities with a given scenario.  

We do call pitches most of the time (as you know, HS V).  We do so with purpose.  It may be sequencing, something we see in a hitter, etc., as has been discussed in some depth here recently.  Yes, we want regular communication with P,C and coach calling.  Yes, we want P to throw what is comfortable and what is working for him that day.  Yes we want him to feel liberty to shake in the right situation.  Yes, some P's need to just throw what is called.  Yes, some coaches need to loosen the reigns and/or be more aware of what the P is comfortable throwing on a given day.  All this said, there are some situations where a P is making a big mistake shaking off a call and the best way for the coach to convey a learning moment is the instant pull.  As much as we discuss things and work through the learning curve, it doesn't happen over night and once in a while, a jolt pushes the process forward.  

In one of our last games this year, we had a P shake off my P coach call in a pivotal situation.  We are usually OK with shakes if there is a reason.  It resulted exactly as feared.  If I had another P ready, I would have yanked in a heartbeat.  I should have anyway.  After the inning, I asked very stearnly "did you shake FB?".  We both knew he did and he knew very well it was a big mistake and he did it for selfish reasons.   He definitely got the message.  He'll be a better pitcher going forward.  That one shake was the only one of many during the season I had a big issue with.  Others were still teaching moments and were discussed often.  Others were probably fine.

Another thing that comes to mind about your comment... "it's almost like the most knowledgeable coaches in youth baseball don't want to share their knowledge with an 11u kid, or a 13u kid because they don't want to take the time to explain it.  These kids aren't learning the game, they are learning to follow orders.  of the kids not learning the game, just to follow orders."  

I don't think people take practice time into full consideration sometimes.  Most coaches I know are coaching because they love the game and do love teaching it.  Most of this occurs during practices.  During games, some coach styles are such that they still teach some while others just let the players play.  there is merit to both.  But to observers, the latter can look like they don't teach the game when this is not true at all.  

The usual disclaimer applies.. there are good ones and bad ones with everything.

cabbagedad posted:

Caco3girl,

You may be right and that coach, and certainly most coaches including myself, could always do a better job explaining things.  You know me, I like to offer other possibilities with a given scenario.  

We do call pitches most of the time (as you know, HS V).  We do so with purpose.  It may be sequencing, something we see in a hitter, etc., as has been discussed in some depth here recently.  Yes, we want regular communication with P,C and coach calling.  Yes, we want P to throw what is comfortable and what is working for him that day.  Yes we want him to feel liberty to shake in the right situation.  Yes, some P's need to just throw what is called.  Yes, some coaches need to loosen the reigns and/or be more aware of what the P is comfortable throwing on a given day.  All this said, there are some situations where a P is making a big mistake shaking off a call and the best way for the coach to convey a learning moment is the instant pull.  As much as we discuss things and work through the learning curve, it doesn't happen over night and once in a while, a jolt pushes the process forward.  

In one of our last games this year, we had a P shake off my P coach call in a pivotal situation.  We are usually OK with shakes if there is a reason.  It resulted exactly as feared.  If I had another P ready, I would have yanked in a heartbeat.  I should have anyway.  After the inning, I asked very stearnly "did you shake FB?".  We both knew he did and he knew very well it was a big mistake and he did it for selfish reasons.   He definitely got the message.  He'll be a better pitcher going forward.  That one shake was the only one of many during the season I had a big issue with.  Others were still teaching moments and were discussed often.  Others were probably fine.

Another thing that comes to mind about your comment... "it's almost like the most knowledgeable coaches in youth baseball don't want to share their knowledge with an 11u kid, or a 13u kid because they don't want to take the time to explain it.  These kids aren't learning the game, they are learning to follow orders.  of the kids not learning the game, just to follow orders."  

I don't think people take practice time into full consideration sometimes.  Most coaches I know are coaching because they love the game and do love teaching it.  Most of this occurs during practices.  During games, some coach styles are such that they still teach some while others just let the players play.  there is merit to both.  But to observers, the latter can look like they don't teach the game when this is not true at all.  

The usual disclaimer applies.. there are good ones and bad ones with everything.

 

Cabbage, there are good ones and bad ones and sadly I don't know enough to judge who is who.  I can say that multiple times over the year with MY son he has misinterpreted/misheard a coach and because an explanation was not given it wound up hurting him.  The most blatant that comes to mind was when the coach explained to the 12u team not to swing at curves or change up's, wait for the fast ball.  All of a sudden my kid, who had struck out 5 times the previous YEAR had 2 strike outs in one game against a pitcher that wasn't very special.  When I asked him about it he told me what the coach had said.  I asked him to double check with the coach.  He did and came back with "Yup, that's what he said", having enough of the insanity I talked to the coach WITH my son, it turned out he said don't swing at curves or change up's while you are ahead in the count."  No idea if this is valid advice but at least my kid was no longer standing up there like a statue.  At the time I am not certain my kid even knew what "ahead in the count" meant....and that could have been part of the problem.

Yup, Caco, perfect example.  

Looking fastball early in the count and when ahead (therefore don't swing at curve and change) is a good approach used across all levels.  So the coach is teaching a sound baseball approach.  He explained it to the team and one (or more) player didn't fully understand or properly interpret so was unable to execute properly.  

So, at some point, the perception of the parent was insanity on the coach's part.  In reality, it was sound teaching.  Sometimes it takes a while for either of the three (coach/player/parent) to recognize that the group message didn't come across clearly enough to some of the individuals.  So the coach may have only scored a 90% on conveying a hitting approach to the team but this is far from the earlier perceived insanity status.

BTW, Caco, I still question my son's interpretation of the words and directives of his coaches and he is a fourth year college player   I hope you experience better progress.

I was having a conversation with a little league coach and he told me they call the pitches and the location!!!!!!!  Are you kidding me. Location?????

Will posted:

I was having a conversation with a little league coach and he told me they call the pitches and the location!!!!!!!  Are you kidding me. Location?????

Yup, high, low, inside, outside is also called with pitch.