High School Baseball

Steve A. posted:

Go44dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

I expect my son's HS coach to play to win. Every game.  And that most likely means he calls the pitches.  Just get the calls in quick so kids can play with tempo.

Save the development focus for the travel teams when you pay to get developed.

Let me ask you a couple questions .Let's say your son is a pitcher. Would he be a better off having been on the mound for 4 years with a coach who was OK with letting him shake & throw his own game or simply nodding like a robot for fear of chapping the coach?

I totally understand playing to win & get it. I simply have a differing take on it & understand the fact that this is HS baseball & 1 team wins the State Championship & the rest of them are really irrelevant in terms of Win / Loss records as the years go by. In short, nobody really gives a rip if your team went 18-6, 14-14 or 6-14 within about 10 minutes after the last game.

Would the pitcher be better off for the experience of learning from mistakes? For sure.

Would the team be better off? That's the bigger question.

I prefer the freshman who has coaches calling pitches, but then asking at the end of every inning/game the mindset behind what was called. Maybe asking why we didn't try this or that. Or maybe flat out saying "I would have felt better throwing ...."

Then, by the time he' been doing that for a couple of years, he and I will be on the same page, and I will know that he understands the game and what we're trying to accomplish with each hitter, and he will have a lot more leeway or input or decision making capabilities, whatever you want to call it.

But to think I'm going to let a kid who may not understand how to do it simply take it over for the betterment of him and only him right away simply isn't going to happen.

ironhorse posted:

If 95% of amateur baseball calls pitches (meaning HS and college really), and 99% of amateur football calls plays (meaning HS and college really), are 95-99% of all coaches simply fueled by ego?

That's ignorant.

I guess you need to pick up the phone & call Billy Wagner & tell him he is ignorant. Surely your wisdom is superior to this guy who was the best. Further, comparing a Football QB & a Pitcher in terms of play calling vs pitch selection is like Apples & Oranges. Not even close to a similar dynamic. The Pitcher / Hitter dynamic is an individual battle. The critical components on the pitchers end of it are confidence, a feel for the particular pitch on a given day, all of his combined experience in reading a hitters reaction / swing & having a plan of attack.

Simply nodding your head to some coach who probably could not play a lick back in the day is not the way to grow as a player. You are displaying a clear lack of understanding & obviously have never been on the mound in any meaningful capacity.

I was a high school coach for 21 years.  We always called pitches from the bench.  1.  I didn't want to let a 16 year old kid have the extra pressure of making decisions that could win or lose games for his team.  2.  I played catcher at a D1 college and definitely thought that I had a better feel for hitters than high school catchers would.  3.  I agree with the positioning of infielders and outfielders from pitch to pitch that the catcher may not be aware of.  One coach was moving fielders and the other was sending in the pitch.  We always had a sign to allow the pitcher to throw his best pitch in certain situations.  He had the ability to shake the catcher until he got the pitch he had the most confidence in.  We also made our pitchers shake at different times just to keep hitters guessing.  I never got to call my own game until my senior year in college.  Most colleges are calling every pitch from the dugout.  

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

Go44dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

I expect my son's HS coach to play to win. Every game.  And that most likely means he calls the pitches.  Just get the calls in quick so kids can play with tempo.

Save the development focus for the travel teams when you pay to get developed.

Let me ask you a couple questions .Let's say your son is a pitcher. Would he be a better off having been on the mound for 4 years with a coach who was OK with letting him shake & throw his own game or simply nodding like a robot for fear of chapping the coach?

I totally understand playing to win & get it. I simply have a differing take on it & understand the fact that this is HS baseball & 1 team wins the State Championship & the rest of them are really irrelevant in terms of Win / Loss records as the years go by. In short, nobody really gives a rip if your team went 18-6, 14-14 or 6-14 within about 10 minutes after the last game.

Would the pitcher be better off for the experience of learning from mistakes? For sure.

Would the team be better off? That's the bigger question.

I prefer the freshman who has coaches calling pitches, but then asking at the end of every inning/game the mindset behind what was called. Maybe asking why we didn't try this or that. Or maybe flat out saying "I would have felt better throwing ...."

Then, by the time he' been doing that for a couple of years, he and I will be on the same page, and I will know that he understands the game and what we're trying to accomplish with each hitter, and he will have a lot more leeway or input or decision making capabilities, whatever you want to call it.

But to think I'm going to let a kid who may not understand how to do it simply take it over for the betterment of him and only him right away simply isn't going to happen.

 

 

I actually agree with most of that. My problem is that the kid is a Freshman & has no clue how to pitch. He has had coaches like yourself all the way along who have felt pressure to win & therefore pushed the learning element further & further along. If he had been free to learn, he would shake the 2-0 FB with a base open & the 4 Hole Guy up in a tight spot & snap in a 2-0 bender & you would smile & say, "that kid gets it." This would not happen on your team because you have steered the ship with white knuckles.  

Steve A. posted:

ironhorse posted:

If 95% of amateur baseball calls pitches (meaning HS and college really), and 99% of amateur football calls plays (meaning HS and college really), are 95-99% of all coaches simply fueled by ego?

That's ignorant.

I guess you need to pick up the phone & call Billy Wagner & tell him he is ignorant. Surely your wisdom is superior to this guy who was the best. Further, comparing a Football QB & a Pitcher in terms of play calling vs pitch selection is like Apples & Oranges. Not even close to a similar dynamic. The Pitcher / Hitter dynamic is an individual battle. The critical components on the pitchers end of it are confidence, a feel for the particular pitch on a given day, all of his combined experience in reading a hitters reaction / swing & having a plan of attack.

Simply nodding your head to some coach who probably could not play a lick back in the day is not the way to grow as a player. You are displaying a clear lack of understanding & obviously have never been on the mound in any meaningful capacity.

Billy?  is that you?  I live in Houston and am a big fan.

I was a high school coach for 21 years.  We always called pitches from the bench.  1.  I didn't want to let a 16 year old kid have the extra pressure of making decisions that could win or lose games for his team.  2.  I played catcher at a D1 college and definitely thought that I had a better feel for hitters than high school catchers would.  3.  I agree with the positioning of infielders and outfielders from pitch to pitch that the catcher may not be aware of.  One coach was moving fielders and the other was sending in the pitch.  We always had a sign to allow the pitcher to throw his best pitch in certain situations.  He had the ability to shake the catcher until he got the pitch he had the most confidence in.  We also made our pitchers shake at different times just to keep hitters guessing.  I never got to call my own game until my senior year in college.  Most colleges are calling every pitch from the dugout.  

Overthehill posted:

I was a high school coach for 21 years.  We always called pitches from the bench.  1.  I didn't want to let a 16 year old kid have the extra pressure of making decisions that could win or lose games for his team.  2.  I played catcher at a D1 college and definitely thought that I had a better feel for hitters than high school catchers would.  3.  I agree with the positioning of infielders and outfielders from pitch to pitch that the catcher may not be aware of.  One coach was moving fielders and the other was sending in the pitch.  We always had a sign to allow the pitcher to throw his best pitch in certain situations.  He had the ability to shake the catcher until he got the pitch he had the most confidence in.  We also made our pitchers shake at different times just to keep hitters guessing.  I never got to call my own game until my senior year in college.  Most colleges are calling every pitch from the dugout.  

I want my kids to like the pressure, not worry about "extra pressure." What are you really protecting them from? Getting their feelings hurt? Welcome to pitching & life buddy. Now get another ball from the Umpire & keep challenging these guys.

Steve A. posted:

Go44dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

I expect my son's HS coach to play to win. Every game.  And that most likely means he calls the pitches.  Just get the calls in quick so kids can play with tempo.

Save the development focus for the travel teams when you pay to get developed.

Let me ask you a couple questions .Let's say your son is a pitcher. Would he be a better off having been on the mound for 4 years with a coach who was OK with letting him shake & throw his own game or simply nodding like a robot for fear of chapping the coach?

I totally understand playing to win & get it. I simply have a differing take on it & understand the fact that this is HS baseball & 1 team wins the State Championship & the rest of them are really irrelevant in terms of Win / Loss records as the years go by. In short, nobody really gives a rip if your team went 18-6, 14-14 or 6-14 within about 10 minutes after the last game.

1) Son is a pitcher 2) that's not really a question

Record doesn't matter.  Playing to win matters.  That's what life is like.

Go44dad posted:

Steve A. posted:

Go44dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

I expect my son's HS coach to play to win. Every game.  And that most likely means he calls the pitches.  Just get the calls in quick so kids can play with tempo.

Save the development focus for the travel teams when you pay to get developed.

Let me ask you a couple questions .Let's say your son is a pitcher. Would he be a better off having been on the mound for 4 years with a coach who was OK with letting him shake & throw his own game or simply nodding like a robot for fear of chapping the coach?

I totally understand playing to win & get it. I simply have a differing take on it & understand the fact that this is HS baseball & 1 team wins the State Championship & the rest of them are really irrelevant in terms of Win / Loss records as the years go by. In short, nobody really gives a rip if your team went 18-6, 14-14 or 6-14 within about 10 minutes after the last game.

1) Son is a pitcher 2) that's not really a question

Record doesn't matter.  Playing to win matters.  That's what life is like.

So trusting your son to throw his own game = not playing to win? Is that a question?

I also believe that if you are a good coach, you, your catcher, and your pitcher should be all on the same page.  We talked after innings about different pitches in different situations.  I felt like my pitchers were more at ease knowing that their coach was calling the same pitch that they had planned to throw.  Whenever there was a doubt in their mind, I helped with the decision.  I lived with pitchers for four years in college.  We had lots of discussions about pitching in high pressure situations.  They always agreed that they trusted my decisions.  Little things that the average person doesn't think about can come in to play.  Here are some examples, a hitter moving up and in to bunt, deep in the box, front of the box, on the plate, off the plate.  Hitters give lots of things away from at bat to at bat.  Even as much as what he says to himself under his breath between pitches.  You may laugh, but it's all true.  "Damn, why can't I hit that pitch anymore?'  Good chance he'll see that one again sometime in the at bat.  How about the catcher looking at base runners, do they pay attention to that in HS?  Probably not.  Watch runners on first the next few high school and even college games you are at.  They get the steal sign and a big majority will always take a peek at 2nd base to make sure it is still there.  Pitch out, fastball away, take advantage of what they give you.  Sorry so long. 

Steve A, I wasn't talking about the pressure of the game.  I was talking about the team aspect.  We win together, we lose together, and the decisions made were the coaches fault not a 16 year old kid.  

Pitch calling is, in essence, a coaching strategy. Strategy is the domain of the coach in high school baseball. I have always held the position that a catcher learns quite a lot about the game by paying attention to how a coach calls a game. A good coach will discuss his game plan with his battery and share his expertise. They can benefit without calling the game themselves. There have been times I let the catcher/pitcher call the game, but those were learning moments - not to learn how to call a game, but to learn to pay attention to overall strategy.

Now, in the majors, where catchers have extensive scouting reports and often have seen the same batters hundreds of times, they are, in effect, coaches on the field and are armed with what they need to call a game. In high school, they simply aren't. When the time comes, if they've had the benefit of a good high school/college coach and paid attention to how he calls a game, they'll be ready.

OK, for all of the HS "Non-Shakers" out there. For those of you just in love with the HS coach calling all shots & "playing to win," let me ask you this. If I turn on a MLB game & watch it & Clayton Kershaw or Strassburg or Name a pitcher gets a sign from the catcher & shakes 2X & then throws a pitch, is he "playing to win?" I think we would say yes, but well he is a MLB Pitcher & knows what he is doing etc etc. Yes, correct.

When exactly, then, does he get the green light to shake & throw his own game? Pro Ball? Maybe if he goes to a few select colleges or JUCO? If the answer, according to what appears to be the consensus here, is that there shall be no shaking in MS, HS, College then apparently you need to somehow sign with MiLB in order to shake & learn how to actually pitch. Aren't these guys in MiLB trying to win? Aren't they trying to develop the most polished, winning pitcher possible? Yes, of course they are. This is why they throw their own game. Because it creates a WINNING PITCHER.  "Well, you can't really do that with a youth pitcher." I can hear it already. I will simply call BS on that because I have seen it & done it. It is the COACHING EGO that blocks the development of youth pitchers. Plain & simple. 

I also believe that if you are a good coach, you, your catcher, and your pitcher should be all on the same page.  We talked after innings about different pitches in different situations.  I felt like my pitchers were more at ease knowing that their coach was calling the same pitch that they had planned to throw.  Whenever there was a doubt in their mind, I helped with the decision.  I lived with pitchers for four years in college.  We had lots of discussions about pitching in high pressure situations.  They always agreed that they trusted my decisions.  Little things that the average person doesn't think about can come in to play.  Here are some examples, a hitter moving up and in to bunt, deep in the box, front of the box, on the plate, off the plate.  Hitters give lots of things away from at bat to at bat.  Even as much as what he says to himself under his breath between pitches.  You may laugh, but it's all true.  "Damn, why can't I hit that pitch anymore?'  Good chance he'll see that one again sometime in the at bat.  How about the catcher looking at base runners, do they pay attention to that in HS?  Probably not.  Watch runners on first the next few high school and even college games you are at.  They get the steal sign and a big majority will always take a peek at 2nd base to make sure it is still there.  Pitch out, fastball away, take advantage of what they give you.  Sorry so long. 

totally agree!

Overthehill posted:

Steve A, I wasn't talking about the pressure of the game.  I was talking about the team aspect.  We win together, we lose together, and the decisions made were the coaches fault not a 16 year old kid.  

Yes sir. Respect that & understand your point. I am simply saying that if the coach calls a FB & Billy hits it 400' for a game winner, trust me, Your Pitcher gave up the dinger, not the coach, whether the coach called it or not. He will take it with him forever & the Coach will say he missed his spot.

I'm not sure how a Coach's Ego would come into play here.  Pitchers need to learn how to pitch by paying attention as the game goes.  Do coaches need to let kids steal, hit and run, and bunt whenever they choose?  Your MLB example are of pitchers who HAVE learned how to pitch, and have people behind them to adjust to situations and different hitters.  Most high school teams don't have kids on the same page as MLB players.  They are there because they see the little things, communicate from pitch to pitch and hitter to hitter.  They've learned to look for these things from coaches positioning them and experience.  

Now, I've never had a problem with the pitcher occasionally shaking off the pitch if he doesn't feel comfortable with it as long as it isn't a constant habit.

I truly get both points here. On the one hand I totally agree the pitcher is on the hook. And therefore should be in command. Similar to a recent thread about who was in charge catcher or pitcher. I say it's the pitcher. OTOH it is the coaches job to coach. If the coach feels strongly about a pitch the pitcher needs to throw it. That's the way life works. Ever work in corporate America?  When some less than brilliant middle manager comes up with an idea the lower ranks have to use it no matter how inane it is. Obviously as I stated earlier in the thread it is best when coach, pitcher and catcher all sit together and discuss. Catchers input pretty much stops at what pitches seem to be working and how those pitches are being located. Then coach and pitcher based on this input come up with a plan of attack. Catcher then follows the plan. Understand pitchers need to control his game.  But also think of this, if the pitcher wants to consider himself good shouldn't he be able to throw any pitch at any time?  If he is not strong and confident regardless of what the coach calls maybe he shouldn't be a pitcher. So I see both sides but the development issue I can't buy. Cause the fact of the matter is the catcher is likely never at any level to have full control. And the pitcher will have to reach the highest levels and with great results to have that kind of freedom. So what would you be developing them for?  

I agree, there are lots of times during a game when we gave the pitcher the option to throw his BEST pitch.   There is a happy medium here.  I never called every pitch of every game.  Different pitchers and catchers got more freedom as their confidence and decision making improved.  I never felt like I was constricting any pitcher, just trying to teach him how to pitch.  It's easier to do with kids you coach 2 or 3 years.

cabbagedad posted:

This is a discussion/debate that comes up fairly often here.  As some have pointed out, most HS and college programs have a coach call pitches and there are many valid reasons.  Will your HS son catcher actually be up on scouting reports and spray charts of opponents as much as the most qualified coach on staff?  Even if he is, will his other responsibilities suffer a bit in order for him to keep track of all this?  The catcher has so many responsibilities and things to keep track of without calling pitches.  How many HS kids are really equipped to add that and put the team in a better position to win than if that qualified coach was calling? 

I agree that a catcher will learn a lot from calling games and there are right times to have him do so.  We do it with our summer games and most inter-squads.  In the rare instance where a C shows the ability to handle this well without the rest of his game suffering, we're all for it. 

Also, it does depend on the coach alignment as well.  Is there a qualified coach who knows his P's, can do it and put the team in a better position to win? 

Coach' analogy of the football QB is a good one.  No one ever says "well, how is he supposed to learn the game?" when the QB doesn't call plays.  Is It "over-coaching" when the FB HC calls plays?

Actually, I think I disagree. I think they are a bit different. Football QBs should be learning to read the defense and know his progressions during the play. He should be learning what audibles to call after a defense is set. He needs to be able to identify, along with his center, the MIKE linebacker for that play. With all of those things to learn, I think it's ok for the coach to signal in the play call. The QB has plenty of responsibilities already -- assuming they are running an offense with a bit of sophistication to it. 

Of course, there are sophistication levels of the game (that you point out in your post) for a catcher as well regarding defensive alignment, opposing batters history and opposing hitter weaknesses.  And that would be a lot to take on....however, learning to put together a good sequence (changing locations, varying pitches etc. ) would be a nice thing for catchers to get more time in the saddle doing.

I also understand that coaches need to win. So, I agree with the point above about possibly getting more if that training in travel versus high school. 

full disclosure here..,Son  is a catcher so you have to take that into consideration. 

Steve A I'm not sure how it's possible to criticize ironhorse for being close minded for wanting to call pitches as a coach when you've done nothing but generalize and stereotype all the pitch calling coaches as a tyrant that coaches through fear?  Little hypocritical there to be honest.

Couple of observations

1.  Just because a coach calls pitches doesn't mean he's coaching through fear / intimidation.  I typically call pitches but I want input from both pitcher and catcher.  They are out there on the front lines.  It helps create a system to teach them how to call pitches through our conversations.  It helps create ownership in them to learn because their opinion has value

2. You criticize ironhorse way of getting Freshmen, call their games, talk to learn and eventually let them take over because it's better for them to get out there and make mistakes.  But what is the catcher is dumb as a box of rocks?  I've had guys who were amazing physically - block, frame, throw, hit - but just couldn't get it mentally.  I wouldn't even signal plays in through them because I was afraid they couldn't do it after spending hours teaching them.  You willing to let them learn in that way?

3.  Pro ball players get to spend a few more hours honing their craft and be around the most intelligent baseball people than amateur players.  Those amateur players have to go to those silly classes that take up most of the day.  It's easier to teach when you can sit down with a coach and break down film to teach whatever.  But I can't just pull that kid out of biology to break down film especially when I'm teaching the Civil War.

You talk about coaches having egos but you may want to look in the mirror.  You have done nothing but criticize anybody and anything that doesn't fall in line with your beliefs.

PLAYWITHEFFORT-mine is a catcher as well.  Here's the devil's advocate part of this discussion.  What if the high school coach gives the reins to his players?  Who now is in charge?  The pitcher or the catcher?  I could see both having a different plan of action.  My other concern is what about pitch position.  What if you have a pitcher that throws hard?  Me, being a catcher my whole playing career, would like to know is he throwing inside or out?  Putting 1 finger down and knowing a fast ball is coming is ok, but I'd like to know his intentions.   As a catcher, it was my job to take care of the pitcher.  Including taking care of his mistakes, pitches in the dirt, etc.  Is a pitcher really ever in control?  College freshman pitchers didn't get to pitch much shaking off senior catchers.  

Steve A. posted:

ironhorse posted:

If 95% of amateur baseball calls pitches (meaning HS and college really), and 99% of amateur football calls plays (meaning HS and college really), are 95-99% of all coaches simply fueled by ego?

That's ignorant.

I guess you need to pick up the phone & call Billy Wagner & tell him he is ignorant. Surely your wisdom is superior to this guy who was the best. Further, comparing a Football QB & a Pitcher in terms of play calling vs pitch selection is like Apples & Oranges. Not even close to a similar dynamic. The Pitcher / Hitter dynamic is an individual battle. The critical components on the pitchers end of it are confidence, a feel for the particular pitch on a given day, all of his combined experience in reading a hitters reaction / swing & having a plan of attack.

Simply nodding your head to some coach who probably could not play a lick back in the day is not the way to grow as a player. You are displaying a clear lack of understanding & obviously have never been on the mound in any meaningful capacity.

If you could link to the interview, and Billy Wagner actually said that HS coaches call pitches solely because of ego, then yes I would call him ignorant. 

How Wagner's stellar pro career, or whatever minor league career you had, have any impact on my opinion of how to develop pitchers or catchers is something I don't quite follow. I have known a lot of pro ball guys that are crappy coaches. Some are good, no doubt. But being on the mound for a big moment in Scranton-WIlkes Barre on bobblehead night doesn't really give you all the insight you'll ever need of how to teach a growing catcher. 

You obviously are too close minded to have a real discussion about this. Not sure why its so personal to you. More than one way to teach baseball I think. You keep coaching up your 13 year olds the way you want to, and I'll run my program the way I want to. 

Steve A. posted:

Go44dad posted:

Steve A. posted:

Go44dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

I expect my son's HS coach to play to win. Every game.  And that most likely means he calls the pitches.  Just get the calls in quick so kids can play with tempo.

Save the development focus for the travel teams when you pay to get developed.

Let me ask you a couple questions .Let's say your son is a pitcher. Would he be a better off having been on the mound for 4 years with a coach who was OK with letting him shake & throw his own game or simply nodding like a robot for fear of chapping the coach?

I totally understand playing to win & get it. I simply have a differing take on it & understand the fact that this is HS baseball & 1 team wins the State Championship & the rest of them are really irrelevant in terms of Win / Loss records as the years go by. In short, nobody really gives a rip if your team went 18-6, 14-14 or 6-14 within about 10 minutes after the last game.

1) Son is a pitcher 2) that's not really a question

Record doesn't matter.  Playing to win matters.  That's what life is like.

So trusting your son to throw his own game = not playing to win? Is that a question?

Putting a ? at the end of an either/or you created  wouldn't get you a "C" in 7th grade debate class.  Can you tell us what is really bothering you?

Easy guys, It's baseball!  Greatest game ever invented.  There are so many variables in this game that most will never even get close to understanding them all.  Including Me!  That's why I like this website, the good, the bad, and the ugly.  All part of the game.  

Son is a catcher and calls the pitches.  I didn't realize that most coaches call the pitches.  I really need to start paying closer attention at games, haha.

I wonder if that would be a good topic for son to ask coaches at future visits?  "Do your catchers call pitches?"  Might give them something to discuss for a few minutes.

Overthehill posted:

PLAYWITHEFFORT-mine is a catcher as well.  Here's the devil's advocate part of this discussion.  What if the high school coach gives the reins to his players?  Who now is in charge?  The pitcher or the catcher?  I could see both having a different plan of action.  My other concern is what about pitch position.  What if you have a pitcher that throws hard?  Me, being a catcher my whole playing career, would like to know is he throwing inside or out?  Putting 1 finger down and knowing a fast ball is coming is ok, but I'd like to know his intentions.   As a catcher, it was my job to take care of the pitcher.  Including taking care of his mistakes, pitches in the dirt, etc.  Is a pitcher really ever in control?  College freshman pitchers didn't get to pitch much shaking off senior catchers.  

Either coach calls the pitches or you have a catcher that a) either calls the pitches based on his knowledge or b) calls the pitches with a keen insight into what the pitcher is "thinking" - with the ability to shake a few if they miss one another.  Without a solid catcher, then you have no choice but to defer to coach.  I've read about some MLB catchers who basically have the same level of expertise as most of the coaches, but then again they get paid - that is their job to study teams/players as well as their pitchers.  Some MLB pitchers know as much or more about opposing hitters and expect their catcher to get on board and get most calls right with the occasional shake.  Maybe that is a little old school and some of the sabermatics guys are taking over pitch calling duites (maybe there is some computer secretly solving for the most effective pitch at any given time).

Overthehill posted:

Easy guys, It's baseball!  Greatest game ever invented.  There are so many variables in this game that most will never even get close to understanding them all.  Including Me!  That's why I like this website, the good, the bad, and the ugly.  All part of the game.  

I agree on the game.  But I think it is really a very simple game.  Hitter, see ball, hit ball if a strike.  Pitcher, hit catchers glove, change speeds.  Fielder, catch ball when it's hit to you, then throw it where your supposed to.

But not easy to consistently do.

Steve I think maybe you are having a bad day. Or there really is something personal about this. Not sure. I think all of us who have coached and responded to this acknowledged that we consult both pitcher and catcher to varying degrees to make a plan of attack for pitch calling. Now when we take the field why does it matter so much if the coach actually calls those pitches?  The time for a pitcher to express himself was in the meeting!  Occasional shake off in non critical situations is fine. But I have to be honest in a tight situation as a coach I want to be at the reigns. I don't think this makes coaches ego maniacs. Just doing their job. Steve I am sure you have a lot to add but you do have to admit you have been a bit combative on this. Maybe you could help us understand why. Usually in these situations there is a back story. 

Truth is the one guy that knows what pitch is most likely to work... is the pitcher in most situations.  It's not every day that a pitcher has complete command of all his pitches.  He knows what pitch he wants to throw and has the most confidence in.  That is the pitch I would want him to throw.  It is more important for him to throw the pitch he feels best about, than the one I feel best about.  The second guy that knows what pitch is likely to work best... is the catcher, provided he isn't a dunce.

At the same time, often the coach knows his players and feels extra confident his pitcher will perform whatever pitch is called.

But IMO even when the coach is calling the pitches, there has to be some leeway given to the catcher and mostly the pitcher to change that pitch.  That is if the coach has people at those positions that he trusts. 

If all of this sounds like I'm on both sides of the fence about this, it is because I am.  I do think in a few isolated cases, coaches are calling pitches just because others are doing it and some have no idea of what they are doing. Might as well be pulling the pitch call out of a hat. However, especially at the higher levels, there are coaches that are great at it. All those that call pitches, just like all those that throw pitches, are not created equal.

PGStaff posted:

Truth is the one guy that knows what pitch is most likely to work... is the pitcher in most situations.  It's not every day that a pitcher has complete command of all his pitches.  He knows what pitch he wants to throw and has the most confidence in.  That is the pitch I would want him to throw.  It is more important for him to throw the pitch he feels best about, than the one I feel best about.  The second guy that knows what pitch is likely to work best... is the catcher, provided he isn't a dunce.

At the same time, often the coach knows his players and feels extra confident his pitcher will perform whatever pitch is called.

But IMO even when the coach is calling the pitches, there has to be some leeway given to the catcher and mostly the pitcher to change that pitch.  That is if the coach has people at those positions that he trusts. 

If all of this sounds like I'm on both sides of the fence about this, it is because I am.  I do think in a few isolated cases, coaches are calling pitches just because others are doing it and some have no idea of what they are doing. Might as well be pulling the pitch call out of a hat. However, especially at the higher levels, there are coaches that are great at it. All those that call pitches, just like all those that throw pitches, are not created equal.

Exactly. When it's the case that a pitcher isn't comfortable with a pitch I'm calling, he needs to be able to shake it off. If he continues to be uncomfortable with certain pitches in certain situations, then I need to adjust my pitch calling based on his comfort level. There does have to be some give-and-take.

An old but good article from the perspective of a highly respected and successful college coach on the subject of calling pitches.

http://www.baseballnews.com/ol...s/callingpitches.htm

Backpick25 posted:

 

An old but good article from the perspective of a highly respected and successful college coach on the subject of calling pitches.

 

http://www.baseballnews.com/ol...s/callingpitches.htm

However, that article is a little old and I believe Rice coaches do call the pitches now. At least it seemed that way from the three or four games I watched this year.

Root, As stated, it's old but still applicable. You ever heard of decoy signage. It happens or he might have a dunce  

In my observation, I come to realize this is a debate of where you come from. As a youth player, I was fortunate enough to be coached by a former mlb catcher. He did let his catchers call the game and make their own mistakes.

Former mlb catchers Mike Matheny and Brad Ausmus are advocates of youth catchers calling their own game.  

http://mikematheny.com/mikes-blog/calling-pitches

A nice piece on the shortage of catchers. 

https://www.thestar.com/sports...d-catchers-gone.html

I'm not sure  what  there would be to gain by having the catcher look to the dugout, then to the wristband, and then call the pitch. I'm more inclined to believe that 10 years ago Rice had catchers call the game and now they don't.

I have no problem  with  the  catcher calling the game if that's  what a coach wants to do. I just don't do it and don't think I'm  depriving my catchers of anything.

coach2709 posted:

Steve A I'm not sure how it's possible to criticize ironhorse for being close minded for wanting to call pitches as a coach when you've done nothing but generalize and stereotype all the pitch calling coaches as a tyrant that coaches through fear?  Little hypocritical there to be honest.

Couple of observations

1.  Just because a coach calls pitches doesn't mean he's coaching through fear / intimidation.  I typically call pitches but I want input from both pitcher and catcher.  They are out there on the front lines.  It helps create a system to teach them how to call pitches through our conversations.  It helps create ownership in them to learn because their opinion has value

2. You criticize ironhorse way of getting Freshmen, call their games, talk to learn and eventually let them take over because it's better for them to get out there and make mistakes.  But what is the catcher is dumb as a box of rocks?  I've had guys who were amazing physically - block, frame, throw, hit - but just couldn't get it mentally.  I wouldn't even signal plays in through them because I was afraid they couldn't do it after spending hours teaching them.  You willing to let them learn in that way?

3.  Pro ball players get to spend a few more hours honing their craft and be around the most intelligent baseball people than amateur players.  Those amateur players have to go to those silly classes that take up most of the day.  It's easier to teach when you can sit down with a coach and break down film to teach whatever.  But I can't just pull that kid out of biology to break down film especially when I'm teaching the Civil War.

You talk about coaches having egos but you may want to look in the mirror.  You have done nothing but criticize anybody and anything that doesn't fall in line with your beliefs.

Hi Coach, I do not think you have misunderstood some of what my point is. I will boil it down to this: If winning is the #1 Priority for a HS Coach, then absolutely yes, if he has a clue, the team would likely have a better chance to win if he calls pitches. If developing the pitcher is the motive, then absolutely without question letting him shake & throw his own game is the way to go. This is my OPINION that happens to be shared by many with vastly more experience than myself or anyone else probably posting here. I offered it & suggested that the coaching ego is the primary factor in determining which side of this fence you fall on. Ironhorse told me I was "ignorant." Now, I am ignorant on many things but I am not ignorant on this topic.

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

ironhorse posted:

If 95% of amateur baseball calls pitches (meaning HS and college really), and 99% of amateur football calls plays (meaning HS and college really), are 95-99% of all coaches simply fueled by ego?

That's ignorant.

I guess you need to pick up the phone & call Billy Wagner & tell him he is ignorant. Surely your wisdom is superior to this guy who was the best. Further, comparing a Football QB & a Pitcher in terms of play calling vs pitch selection is like Apples & Oranges. Not even close to a similar dynamic. The Pitcher / Hitter dynamic is an individual battle. The critical components on the pitchers end of it are confidence, a feel for the particular pitch on a given day, all of his combined experience in reading a hitters reaction / swing & having a plan of attack.

Simply nodding your head to some coach who probably could not play a lick back in the day is not the way to grow as a player. You are displaying a clear lack of understanding & obviously have never been on the mound in any meaningful capacity.

If you could link to the interview, and Billy Wagner actually said that HS coaches call pitches solely because of ego, then yes I would call him ignorant. 

How Wagner's stellar pro career, or whatever minor league career you had, have any impact on my opinion of how to develop pitchers or catchers is something I don't quite follow. I have known a lot of pro ball guys that are crappy coaches. Some are good, no doubt. But being on the mound for a big moment in Scranton-WIlkes Barre on bobblehead night doesn't really give you all the insight you'll ever need of how to teach a growing catcher. 

You obviously are too close minded to have a real discussion about this. Not sure why its so personal to you. More than one way to teach baseball I think. You keep coaching up your 13 year olds the way you want to, and I'll run my program the way I want to. 

 

 

 

Wow, clearly I pushed the hot button with you. I do not recall Wagner suggesting ego was a factor. That is all me & my observations through the years. I will say this though. If I were a HS coach & someone like Wagner did it a different way & had success, I may be willing to take a second look at my approach. I simply mentioned my experience to lend some insight into where I derive my OPINION. It is simply an OPINION, not fact & certainly subject to debate & I may even be wrong & would be happy to be convinced of it. I have learned more about pitching & mechanics in the years since I hung em up than all of my playing days combined. I have not done this by simply looking at the way I did it & suggesting that is the way it needs to be done.

Finally, if it were ego with me & I knew more than everybody would not I be the guy in the dugout, like you, calling every pitch because I am smarter, more experienced & overall just awesome? Quite the contrary. I am the one letting go & allowing my kids to make mistakes & learn from them. I am the one ADMITTING that I may not know the correct pitch on every scenario & trusting my guys to shake & get to it FOR THEM. At the end of it, nobody really cares about you or "your program" other than maybe your Mom so get over yourself. 

Ignorant to me means lacking knowledge in a subject. Please explain to me how you (or Billy Wagner) have any knowledge of me or my motivations for things I do when coaching. You have never met me, and other than a few posts don't know anything about me. If you can't speak expertly to my mindset and motivations (without generalizations or assumptions), then you are by definition ignorant.

Please also explain the "vast experience" of you and the other people of this position. And please understand that playing experience doesn't expressly translate to understanding coaching or how to develop players. Think that sounds a little egotistical to me.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel like you do who have much more experience than me, and are probably better coaches, and I have no problem with that. I'm comfortable with how we do it. (And my ego loves it, too.)

Now that's funny. Made me laugh. Hey look, you are probably a good dude & a good coach who obviously cares otherwise you would not bother with this stuff. My experience or anybody else's experience does not trump anything. It is simply having been there & living through scenarios where I had pitches I knew were right & being called in from the dugout & then letting it go with bad results. Virtually every time I threw a pitch I did not want to throw it was not a quality offering & usually got hit hard. This was MY experience & I do not think it is uncommon. This is why you hear talk about throwing a pitch "with conviction." You must do this to really be successful at a high level. Most people fall into the category of "if it's my idea, I will have a better rate of success," so to speak. Pitching is no different. If you have a rock head behind the plate, shake him & do your thing.

Your team would probably beat my team in the short run but I would probably churn out more high end polished pitchers. Just a different approach & your ego would feel better  but I would sleep better knowing I churned out kids who could think for themselves, were accountable & had no fear of a big spot. In the end with 99% of HS kids not moving on to a next level, I feel this is a better approach. You feel different but i think you should try it in a soft scenario just to see what happens. The results may surprise you. All good & enjoy the dialogue.