Building off of the Perfect Game debate, how do you think the future dad's, the ones who did years of travel ball and high school travel teams, many of whom never saw a college coach scout a single game they played in, will view things? What's their enthusiam and optimism going to be like? Will leagues and schools still be as popular? Are they a little jaded?
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Teaching Elder posted:Building off of the Perfect Game debate, how do you think the future dad's, the ones who did years of travel ball and high school travel teams, many of whom never saw a college coach scout a single game they played in, will view things? What's their enthusiam and optimism going to be like? Will leagues and schools still be as popular? Are they a little jaded?
I think it's really unfortunate that youth baseball (<18) has turned away from just a fun game to how to get recruited. Today everything is geared towards trying to get recruited which I think takes a bit away from the fun of the game.
I would like to see a shift back to, go have fun, work hard to be the best you can be for your team, if you are blessed with enough talent, you will get an opportunity to play next year.
Today's mentality is much more about getting better to help yourself.
real green posted:Teaching Elder posted:Building off of the Perfect Game debate, how do you think the future dad's, the ones who did years of travel ball and high school travel teams, many of whom never saw a college coach scout a single game they played in, will view things? What's their enthusiam and optimism going to be like? Will leagues and schools still be as popular? Are they a little jaded?
I think it's really unfortunate that youth baseball (<18) has turned away from just a fun game to how to get recruited. Today everything is geared towards trying to get recruited which I think takes a bit away from the fun of the game.
I would like to see a shift back to, go have fun, work hard to be the best you can be for your team, if you are blessed with enough talent, you will get an opportunity to play next year.
Today's mentality is much more about getting better to help yourself.
I would say “How did we get to this point” but I think it is self evident
Teaching Elder posted:Building off of the Perfect Game debate, how do you think the future dad's, the ones who did years of travel ball and high school travel teams, many of whom never saw a college coach scout a single game they played in, will view things? What's their enthusiam and optimism going to be like? Will leagues and schools still be as popular? Are they a little jaded?
You don't have to wait 15 years. That is going on right now. I help kids get recruited and I have talked to many parents that would do it differently if they had another go around.
real green posted:Teaching Elder posted:Building off of the Perfect Game debate, how do you think the future dad's, the ones who did years of travel ball and high school travel teams, many of whom never saw a college coach scout a single game they played in, will view things? What's their enthusiam and optimism going to be like? Will leagues and schools still be as popular? Are they a little jaded?
I think it's really unfortunate that youth baseball (<18) has turned away from just a fun game to how to get recruited. Today everything is geared towards trying to get recruited which I think takes a bit away from the fun of the game.
I would like to see a shift back to, go have fun, work hard to be the best you can be for your team, if you are blessed with enough talent, you will get an opportunity to play next year.
Today's mentality is much more about getting better to help yourself.
I see lots of kids having fun playing baseball. Just about all of them. Lots. I’m having fun. I see lots of other parents having fun. But not all. Some are worked up about the recruiting part a little too much. I tend to stay away from those.
But maybe it’s just me. Lemmee turn on the news so someone can remind how unhappy I should be.
Our high school coach has been involved with high level travel baseball for several years. He has basically come out and said to our parents and players that showcase baseball is a waste of time and money if you aren't on a program's 1 or 2 team. Maybe third team.
A good number of guys who played a professional travel schedule from 9-15 and then showcase ball are going to come away realizing that it did them very little good. Good showcase programs have 25 legit prospects that they actually work for and "help" with recruiting and 275 guys who pay for the directors to focus on the 25 prospects. People are figuring that out.
Maybe Little League weathers the storm and regains its footing and youth baseball becomes a game for kids again.
There is at least one thing that everyone on this site can agree on. We all love baseball. We wouldn't be here if we didn't. It is the greatest great game in the world. But the points made in the OP are real concerns. Youth baseball has been monetized at every turn, and a lot of us don't like it. Its not due to any one thing, person, or organization. Its due to a lot of things - almost a perfect storm that has been created to profit off the dreams of children, and I really don't like that. In hopes of helping someone else, this is my story - and the experience of the friends who went along with me. My youngest son came to me when he was 12 and said, "Dad, I have 3 goals." I said, "who are you?" He said, seriously dad I want to focus on baseball and here are my goals : 1) I want to start on varsity as a freshman ; 2) I want to play baseball in college ; and 3) I want to be selected in the MLB draft my senior year in HS. Will you help me reach my goals? So, who on this site would turn a deaf ear to their kid if they heard that? None of you would. My son is now a senior in HS and he isn't going to be drafted but he checked the other two boxes. We had a lot of fun along the way but looking back I would have done some things differently. I also have a son that was a 2015 that was recruited to pitch at a good D3 program. So I have been thru the recruiting process with him too. Besides my own kids, I have helped other families get their kids recruited. I am a former college player, current HS pitching coach, and a volunteer asst. coach at a JUCO. I was also a travel ball coach for 5 years. Point being, I have a pretty good perspective on all of this. And even with my background, and connections, I made a ton of mistakes. What are the contributing factors ? How about we start with the soaring cost of a college education. Many parents are hoping that a baseball scholarship will offset some of the cost of college. Reality is that parents spend way more on baseball getting their kid thru HS than they will ever recoup in baseball scholarship money in college. I know I did. You are better off focusing on grades as a means of scholarship money. Spend reasonably on baseball and put money in the bank. Next factor ? How about the proliferation of select travel ball organizations - many of which have a slick salesman at the top that for thousands of dollars in fees promises all kinds of things to players & parents, marginally qualified coaches that don't teach kids how to get better, and teams full of players that aren't select in any way other than their parents can afford the fees. So you have too many teams & too many players that are paying too much money for false promises. I avoided all these by doing the coaching myself but everyone cant do that. Do your homework and choose wisely. Now lets tell all these players that they need private instructors if they want to compete and those instructors have to be paid of course. And once the instructor gets that income stream going he will tell Johnny and his parents that he can get Johnny to the next level if Johnny will keep showing up and they keep paying. Can he really get him there? Maybe or maybe not. But the money has been spent and the expectation has been set. Be realistic. Lets add to the mix recruiting services who tell parents that they can get your player placed - and it will only cost $ 4000 which is nothing compared to the value of the scholarship they will help him attain - except that they wont actually do that, but you find that out later. What they will do is find a D3 school where Johnny can play that you could have found yourself without them. And btw D3 schools don't offer athletic scholarships. But wait, you said....................I never hired a recruiting service but many of my friends did and with one exception it was a waste of money. Oh, and lets not forget scouting services that promote their expensive high profile events as necessary to the recruiting process for exposure to scouts and college coaches. Oh, and lets be sure to play on a travel team that attends these high profile events that result in traveling halfway across the country twice each summer. And why are we doing all this ? Oh yeah, its because our travel ball coach tells us that all the best teams do this. Oh okay, that's a good reason. Wait, the organizer of this event is paying for your hotel room on the beach ?? You didn't tell any of us that !! But I digress. Just focus on those measurables !! Gotta hit 90 on the gun!! But dad, I'm not getting anybody out ! And my arm hurts. Doesn't matter - throw harder!! That guy in the stands looks like a scout ! And some baseball parents actually think that the more money they spend the better player their son becomes. So many are taken for a ride by travel ball organizations, private instructors and recruiting services resulting in unrealistic expectations of players and parents. I once heard an arrogant parent of a good HS player say (at a HS game), "if your son isn't on the varsity field as a sophomore you are fooling yourself if you think he is playing college baseball." Was she right? Not totally - but more right than wrong. I agree with the post that said the whole experience seems to have turned into a quest to get recruited. And in this quest so many people lose proper perspective. All of the nonsense that I related in this ramble is a combination of real things that happened to people that I know very well. These are the stories they have related to me. Many parents that I know feel pushed, pulled, taken advantage of, and even jaded. And these are the ones that have had success - their kids are going to good JUCO, D3, & D2 schools. What they have realized now that its over is that they didn't have to go to Georgia & Florida to make this happen. They didn't even have to leave the state, and they certainly didn't need to spend all they spent. Now don't get me wrong - its great for the experience if you can afford it. And it can be a lot of fun. But, unlike how it was presented to them initially, its not necessary. I cant imagine that the quest to be recruited is very good for the player either if so much focus is put on the end goal that it takes away from the fun of the journey. Avoid that mistake. The great players are always gonna make it. They are so good that anyone can recognize their talent. They go D1 or get drafted right out of HS. But they are a very small minority. If your son is one of these players you will know it. Parents of these players wont relate to this post because their experience is different. What I have related is more common - it is the experience of the majority. And its crazy. But youth baseball is big business, with lots of money at stake. So good luck trying to change it. You can wish for Little League to return to prominence but I just don't see it happening. The best advice I can offer is to get some experienced help, develop a good strategy, buckle up tight, and stick to your plan. If your son is good enough to play beyond high school, your job is to find the person with the most baseball cred in your community that will promote him. Happy trails to you all !
Ad, I agree with much of what you write. I have three boys, all of whom have, or will be pursuing baseball homes at high academic schools. The oldest went through the recruiting process and is in his first year at a D3 program, the middle one is a junior in HS and planning carefully to be seen this summer, and youngest is a 2022, currently playing intermediate ball.
The older boy's journey included several showcases and two travel team trips. The d3 focused showcases were the most helpful for him. The travel team events were not productive, but they were fun. They weren't productive because they were focused on d1 players and we learned that he was a d3 player late because we really didn't know any better. No one promised us anything, though, so I don't feel like we were misled. My #2 may have a shot at d1 because he's big and fast, but we are again focusing on d3 for him and if d1 happens at the right school, so be it. He's slated to go to showcases that allow him to be seen by both. He will also do a travel team trip with a chance to be seen by mid to low level d1. the 2022, well, I'm just trying to help him figure out how to throw a changeup.
Our experience is ultimately different from most on the board because no one comes to our state to scout unless they're looking at bona fide d1 studs. We have to go to the scouts, which means the cost is unavoidable for what we're trying to do. The hard part is guessing which showcase my kids will perform best at, i.e., there's no way of knowing. Given that, how many showcases are too many? Obviously, that's a personal choice, but the money involved is sobering.
These are some really good and insightful posts. They fit in pretty well with my own observations. I've also often chuckled at the claims that people make of helping parents save on the costs of college tuition. Kicking out 25k in training, travel and fees, recruiting services, etc. for a 25% scholarship, if you get it, doesn't add up.
I really would not be totally surprised to see the whole system take a hit in the next 10-15 years when our kids start getting their kids into baseball (if they aren't too burned out with baseball to have their boys play). Many might realize the game being played by the training facilities and teams and decide a new approach to things. I am pretty sure that a number of granddads (us) will have some advice for our boys about things.
We'll also have additional lessons to teach our own kids about the nature of mankind. The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil and children can become idols that bring one to ruin.
I agree with a whoooooole lot of what is written on this thread. Pointing the problems out is becoming easier as the situations Ad described are so common place. The bigger question to me is:
How do we swing the pendulum the other way?
It's got to be possible, albeit difficult. I have some thought on it, but it's all predicated on the generosity of baseball people, who are already very taxed for time, and the buy-in of parents to try a different model for success. Both of those seem tricky...
Any thoughts on solutions?
Reading through this I have come to realize how fortunate I am to live in an area that has an active rec-ball league. Starting with LL all the way through 18YO. The HS league is thriving and attracts a lot of kids who don't play HS ball or play HS ball but don't have the skills or desire to go on and play college ball. The games are very competitive as the league is setup as a heritage league and teams are based on HS/neighborhood. A lot of the players know each other from years of growing up together. It makes for some really good games, but afterwards the kids will head out to B-DUBS, McD's or the other HS hangouts in our area.
I understand the getting back to fun part but I think there are a lot of players and parents having fun. My youngest son has his SEC offer in hand and could have taken off a little this summer. But he has instead opted to play all summer. I told him it was totally up to him and he said why would I not play all I can. I love playing and spending time with top level baseball players. And if I don't play dad I will have to get a job. Who wants to work all summer when you can play baseball.
I think the top level players being supported by the mid to bottom players will not go away. Parents don't understand it but they hope that their little Johnny will get the offer. I also do not think most parents understand that the top level players are not paying the same $3000 a year that they are paying to play. But that is not new and will not go away.
Baseball has become a business from the youngest ages up and will not stop. Because the next generation will also believe that with enough practice, games, and instruction (which all cost money) their little Johnny will make it.
Remember. We don't do all of this for little Johnny. We do this so that we can brag about how good how kid is. LOL (As one parent told me the other day when we were talking summer schedules)
ironhorse posted:I agree with a whoooooole lot of what is written on this thread. Pointing the problems out is becoming easier as the situations Ad described are so common place. The bigger question to me is:
How do we swing the pendulum the other way?
It's got to be possible, albeit difficult. I have some thought on it, but it's all predicated on the generosity of baseball people, who are already very taxed for time, and the buy-in of parents to try a different model for success. Both of those seem tricky...
Any thoughts on solutions?
Here are some thoughts about that :
The first is honesty. Any person that claims to be a baseball person has the responsibility to be honest in the assessment of any player, IMHO. Misleading a player or a parent in order to receive income from them is just wrong! I have always told the truth in my evaluations of players and I have made a lot of people mad. But I don't care. I don't do what I do for money. I do it because it keeps me connected to the game and it is my version of community service. Just like baseball guys should be honest, players & parents need to be willing to accept the truth even if its not what they want to hear.
Next - about parents. Parents need to be more educated consumers when it comes to baseball. You wouldn't put 30K in a real estate investment without doing your diligence, right? So why are you willing to invest that amount in your son's baseball based on blind faith - or word of mouth? Do some fact checking on these travel ball organizations & private instructors before you sign up with them. Talk to previous parents & players that have worked with them. Verify the things that they publish on their website. Treat them more as you would in a business setting - because believe me that's how they are treating you !
Now, about HS coaches.......with apologies up front to all the good HS coaches on this board, the fact is that there are not enough of you to go around. We need more good HS baseball coaches! Coaching isn't a 9 - 5 job on M-F. Coaching doesn't take the summer off. I know, this sounds absurd to good coaches but guess what ? Its real. Parents, if your HS has one of these guys its on to you to demand better. Your chances of doing something about it will increase if you band together. Trust me, the school board in my city knows who I am - and I'm not popular there.
All of that would be a good start.
I don’t know how it could ever turn back. At son’s HS, the kids who played high level travel ball appear to enter the program ready to contribute and a lot (not all) of the kids who stayed in rec ball got cut recently.
I think most parents want to have their kids compete at the highest level and sometimes the rec scenario just can’t offer that. At least not in my neck of the woods.
I actually coached my son’s travel team from 10-13U and we worked very hard to keep the costs down with sponsorships and fundraising. Each family’s fees the final year was about $500 and that included ten tournaments.
Another thing that we did was make sure that the kids had fun. The kids could swim on out of town trips (some teams didn’t allow that), we had dance contests at the end of practice and lot of practice drills resulted in some type of competition with a prize. I also discussed the plans with our parents and gave them a vote on how they would spend their hard-earned money.
Over the years I made some great connections and early on they would let me know what showcases my son should shoot for and what to avoid. I think that finding someone who has been through the process or this site is the best way to navigate through all of the noise.
If a kid desires to play beyond college, I’m not sure if travel ball isn’t the best way to prepare him.
Maybe I am a bit too naïve. It's not that I disagree with anything above, it just isn't my son's story. We live in a rural part of southwest GA. As he progressed through baseball, it was all about competition. He played on travel teams that were mostly local. As we saw that his talent level warranted it, we moved to a regional travel team around age 15. We began to compete against the Atlanta teams and his desire was to play there. I was very clear. The only way I would allow him to play there was if he was on a top team. It was at that same time that he started getting some interest by mid level D1 schools. I never had a travel coach try to sell me on "play for me and I'll get your kid opportunities." Maybe I realized that subconsciously, but that wasn't the driving force. It was his desire to compete against the best of the best to see if he could measure up. I did take him to a PG showcase as a freshman in HS because I wanted to get unbiased measurables. He did well and got a very nice write up by the PG scouts. He was invited to play with arguably the top travel team in the US at that time. He was one of the top 4 or 5 pitchers and received an invite to play at East Coast Pro. He went on to earn a scholarship at his dream school. We did attend a few camps at schools he was very interested in (4 total I think). He received offers from all of those schools, but we had already determined he was most likely a fit athletically at these schools through his success on the travel team and competing against the top teams nationally.
This is your responsibility as a parent, in my opinion. Don't listen to the white noise. You have to do the homework and research. I can't fault a for-profit organization for selling a dream to anyone that is willing to buy. That's basic economics, supply and demand. If the demand wasn't there, there would not be showcase baseball. It's the parent's desire for their kid's (or sadly their) dream that is driving this, not the businesses.
Real quality commentary here. From what I observe, the main obstacle to overcome here is the inability of parents to be objective when evaluating the talent of their own kids. Obviously, everyone is going to be a bit biased & tend to see more of the "good" vs reality when looking at their own. I think you start with identifying the most seasoned & honest evaluator of your kids talent you can find & ask that person to tell it to you straight. Be prepared to have your feelings hurt. Where does my kid rate? How does he project? Is he unlikely to play beyond HS? Is he a PO? Is he Div 1, 2, 3 etc. The Div 1 guys do not have to ask, everyone pretty much knows, with a few exceptions.
After trying to establish reality, you can then begin to plot a strategy to get your boy an opportunity to play WHERE HE FITS. This is the key. Shoot for a place where he can play & enjoy life. If that is Div 3 baseball then so be it. Go to the school camp. Reach out to the coaches. Ask for help from your travel ball coach or anyone who would have a contact there.
Parents need to get a grip on the level of talent needed to play Div 2 or 3 baseball at a high level. You know the 3 hole hitter on team X who just rakes your kid when your's pitches? He is probably one of 9 identical kids who he would face at Div 2 or 3. The easy outs are gone & the hits are hard to come by because everyone is the best of the best now as you move forward.
As for the $$ part. Agree totally. It is certainly an issue. The way I look at it is this: I am perfectly willing to spend whatever I can afford, that makes sense, based upon the knowledge that my son will be engaging in a productive experience that demonstrates many life lessons. Is there a better use of my $$ than spending it on my kid & I getting to spend time together while he competes with his friends, gets instruction from a quality guy etc? I think not. What would he be doing otherwise? Working on his girlfriend relationship. Learning how to vape in the HS parking lot. Looking at his phone. So regardless of the "payoff", scholarship or not, I have no regrets about the $$ & do not realistically see much change away from the ramp up in competition as we move forward. The competitive dial is only going to get turned up as more & more quality athletes turn away from football and move our way in the years to come.
Steve A. posted:Real quality commentary here. From what I observe, the main obstacle to overcome here is the inability of parents to be objective when evaluating the talent of their own kids. Obviously, everyone is going to be a bit biased & tend to see more of the "good" vs reality when looking at their own. I think you start with identifying the most seasoned & honest evaluator of your kids talent you can find & ask that person to tell it to you straight. Be prepared to have your feelings hurt. Where does my kid rate? How does he project? Is he unlikely to play beyond HS? Is he a PO? Is he Div 1, 2, 3 etc. The Div 1 guys do not have to ask, everyone pretty much knows, with a few exceptions.
After trying to establish reality, you can then begin to plot a strategy to get your boy an opportunity to play WHERE HE FITS. This is the key. Shoot for a place where he can play & enjoy life. If that is Div 3 baseball then so be it. Go to the school camp. Reach out to the coaches. Ask for help from your travel ball coach or anyone who would have a contact there.
Parents need to get a grip on the level of talent needed to play Div 2 or 3 baseball at a high level. You know the 3 hole hitter on team X who just rakes your kid when your's pitches? He is probably one of 9 identical kids who he would face at Div 2 or 3. The easy outs are gone & the hits are hard to come by because everyone is the best of the best now as you move forward.
As for the $$ part. Agree totally. It is certainly an issue. The way I look at it is this: I am perfectly willing to spend whatever I can afford, that makes sense, based upon the knowledge that my son will be engaging in a productive experience that demonstrates many life lessons. Is there a better use of my $$ than spending it on my kid & I getting to spend time together while he competes with his friends, gets instruction from a quality guy etc? I think not. What would he be doing otherwise? Working on his girlfriend relationship. Learning how to vape in the HS parking lot. Looking at his phone. So regardless of the "payoff", scholarship or not, I have no regrets about the $$ & do not realistically see much change away from the ramp up in competition as we move forward. The competitive dial is only going to get turned up as more & more quality athletes turn away from football and move our way in the years to come.
this^ He said it much better than me.
Are those (players and parents) the least happy the ones who don’t or didn’t grasp where the kid fits in the game talent wise? It can be frustrating to attempt to place a square peg in a round hole.
It’s pretty easy to tell if a kid does or doesn’t belong on a team.
The advice that I got was you don’t want your kid to be the best or the worst on any particular team.
I also think if you want an honest assessment of your kid’s ability, find someone who doesn’t have monetary conflict of interest to provide it.
I'll just say this. It's all about steps and levels. There is nothing wrong with playing "travel ball" as a youth. There are many types of programs to choose from -- glorified rec league to semi-pro. Pick what works for you, have fun and play. There is a learning process there -- compete and get better. The goal should be to contribute in HS.
Once in HS, then you decide whether you want to play at the "next level." And work to get yourself there. But as others have said, be realistic. That means for most, traveling around the country to showcases is a waste of time/money for recruiting purposes. But everyone thinks you need to be there to be "seen." If your legit D1, sure that's probably true to provide maximum opportunities. But for most, you just clog up the park. We know several kids who did it -- they were D3 players and traveled from AZ to GA. Guess where they ended up. At the local D3s -- all less than an hour away from home. No scholarship, lots of money spent.
Steve A. posted:From what I observe, the main obstacle to overcome here is the inability of parents to be objective when evaluating the talent of their own kids.
This is an incredibly accurate statement.
I also simply cannot comprehend the faith put in the people that parents are paying to coach or instruct their kid, without them having a proven track record or seeing actual results.
If I had a doctor that promised me he was curing my disease, yet every check up I had I was the exact same level of sick for 4+ years I would wonder what the hell kinda doctor I had working on me and why I keep kicking in the co-pay.
For some reason this logic does not apply to pitching/hitting instructors.
I think that high school showcase baseball is about to take a pretty severe hit. Here's why.
More and more, state high school athletic associations are allowing sports/teams/coaches to do things in the off-season. In GA teams can practice in June and play games. A coach is foolish if he doesn't say to his players, "If you aren't clear D1, and maybe even draft-worthy, material, you don't need to be bothering with showcase baseball. You are throwing money away on uniforms, and administrative costs, and get zero training. You will show up with 25 other guys on your team and play for a college kid looking to make a little side money. Chances are that a recruiter will never even come out and see anyone on your team play.
As a team we will practice together in the summer, then as a team we will enter and play in the same tournaments. You will be seen by the same people. We will wear our high school uniforms and you won't be paying a bunch of administrative and "recruiting" costs. I have connections in the coaching world. I can get you seen- if you deserve it. I will be coaching you and training you in the summer. So, you will actually be improving during that time - a big plus. If you want to play showcase baseball afterwards, I will help you get on a team; it's your money."
A coach that gives up this opportunity to work with his team during the summer instead of farming them out to showcase baseball will probably not be making the best decision from a personal career perspective.
As for kiddie travel ball. The present generation knows enough now to train their own kid in the skills to succeed. They don't need some guy who himself couldn't make it and now trains kids at a warehouse or the latest internet know it all, or some guy with a belt or a balance board or a stick that makes a noise when you swing correctly or super secret olympic lifting program in order to teach their sons how to play.
Will the next generation continue the self-centered child worshipping practices of their parents? That will be the big x-factor.
Golfman25 posted:I'll just say this. It's all about steps and levels. There is nothing wrong with playing "travel ball" as a youth. There are many types of programs to choose from -- glorified rec league to semi-pro. Pick what works for you, have fun and play. There is a learning process there -- compete and get better. The goal should be to contribute in HS.
Once in HS, then you decide whether you want to play at the "next level." And work to get yourself there. But as others have said, be realistic. That means for most, traveling around the country to showcases is a waste of time/money for recruiting purposes. But everyone thinks you need to be there to be "seen." If your legit D1, sure that's probably true to provide maximum opportunities. But for most, you just clog up the park. We know several kids who did it -- they were D3 players and traveled from AZ to GA. Guess where they ended up. At the local D3s -- all less than an hour away from home. No scholarship, lots of money spent. college baseball players will play within a couple hundred miles of home. For most players the money is best spent at the best showcases within their 200 mile zone.
Most college players will play within a couple hundred miles of home. For most players the money is best spent at the top showcase for their ability within that 200 mile zone. PG (GA and FL) is for top players looking to play in Power 5’s and other top programs, top players looking to compete against the best and players loooking to get in front of pro scouts. Even a lot of these players play within 200 miles of home.
smokeminside posted:Ad, I agree with much of what you write. I have three boys, all of whom have, or will be pursuing baseball homes at high academic schools. The oldest went through the recruiting process and is in his first year at a D3 program, the middle one is a junior in HS and planning carefully to be seen this summer, and youngest is a 2022, currently playing intermediate ball.
The older boy's journey included several showcases and two travel team trips. The d3 focused showcases were the most helpful for him. The travel team events were not productive, but they were fun. They weren't productive because they were focused on d1 players and we learned that he was a d3 player late because we really didn't know any better. No one promised us anything, though, so I don't feel like we were misled. My #2 may have a shot at d1 because he's big and fast, but we are again focusing on d3 for him and if d1 happens at the right school, so be it. He's slated to go to showcases that allow him to be seen by both. He will also do a travel team trip with a chance to be seen by mid to low level d1. the 2022, well, I'm just trying to help him figure out how to throw a changeup.
Our experience is ultimately different from most on the board because no one comes to our state to scout unless they're looking at bona fide d1 studs. We have to go to the scouts, which means the cost is unavoidable for what we're trying to do. The hard part is guessing which showcase my kids will perform best at, i.e., there's no way of knowing. Given that, how many showcases are too many? Obviously, that's a personal choice, but the money involved is sobering.
Look into Play To Win. They are the only recruiting service that I would recommend. The focus on high academic D3 schools and they have a proven track record of success. A good friend hired them 2 years ago as his son fit their profile. He followed their guidance and it resulted in his 2018 having multiple offers from his target schools. He eventually chose Haverford.
I wonder how many league MVPs of Patriot, Ivy or NESCAC think "this sucks, I should be in the SEC"? I doubt any of them think this way. When enough parents realize that "fit" is what it's about the pendulum will swing back. How will this happen? There is far more information available today than even 10 years ago that help players and parents see where they fit (pitching velos and exit velos broken down by age, 60 times, online video analysis, etc). More is coming, and in 10 years there will be no excuse for D3 talent to think he's got a shot at the SEC. Just as parents can now see that little Johnnie's 1150 PSAT score won't cut it in the Ivy League, they'll see that they can or can't cut it athletically in a P5. Whatever hopes and dreams have been fueling this craze will be directed elsewhere.
Someone told me years ago that the game will decide when it’s time for a player to hang it up. Only a few get to make that decision for themself but most don’t get to decide.
The recruiting process is somewhat similar. It will show you what level you should target. Typically, the player doesn’t get to make that decision for himself.
The level of travel team that a kid should play is probably similar as well.
Teaching Elder posted:As a team we will practice together in the summer, then as a team we will enter and play in the same tournaments. You will be seen by the same people. We will wear our high school uniforms and you won't be paying a bunch of administrative and "recruiting" costs. I have connections in the coaching world. I can get you seen- if you deserve it. I will be coaching you and training you in the summer. So, you will actually be improving during that time - a big plus. If you want to play showcase baseball afterwards, I will help you get on a team; it's your money."
A coach that gives up this opportunity to work with his team during the summer instead of farming them out to showcase baseball will probably not be making the best decision from a personal career perspective.
Sounds like Legion ball. This is how it was when I grew up. The top HS players moved on the legion in the summer.
real green posted:Teaching Elder posted:As a team we will practice together in the summer, then as a team we will enter and play in the same tournaments. You will be seen by the same people. We will wear our high school uniforms and you won't be paying a bunch of administrative and "recruiting" costs. I have connections in the coaching world. I can get you seen- if you deserve it. I will be coaching you and training you in the summer. So, you will actually be improving during that time - a big plus. If you want to play showcase baseball afterwards, I will help you get on a team; it's your money."
A coach that gives up this opportunity to work with his team during the summer instead of farming them out to showcase baseball will probably not be making the best decision from a personal career perspective.
Sounds like Legion ball. This is how it was when I grew up. The top HS players moved on the legion in the summer.
Legion is very active around here. A lot of JC players are in it, as well as D3 players, D2 players and a few D1 players. Also some good HS players who want one more season of baseball before hanging them up.
EDIT -- when I said "Legion" I was lumping Connie Mack into that, though I'm not sure if that's technically accurate. My son did 2 years of each and saw lots of legit pitching, especially in Connie Mack.
Legion ball is weak in our area code. Only a few HS's are able to keep a stable of pitchers who can really sling it... as a result, the quality of pitching in Legion ball is subpar to the top club teams (in our area). If a player is seeking to play college ball it's been a better path to get on a top club team so that they'll see advanced pitching. Legion ball was strong where I grew up, and I know there are areas where it continues to thrive.
My 2016 and 2018's said they were happy about the work they put into their games, and really enjoyed playing travel ball. They both wanted to play college ball and they both wanted to play against stronger competition. They had an absolute blast traveling and playing better teams, great friendships developed as well. I'm glad I was able to support their interests.
It really helped that I leaned on coaches and instructors for assessments on what level my boys projected to... Having this clarity allowed us to chart decent recruiting paths. And we-I still made mistakes about which venues were appropriate at which times in their development. Happy kids happy family.
I agree with a lot of the above that frustration is going to come from spending a lot of money and not seeing the results. This does come from not understanding which "level" your kid should play. It does seem that all kids at first want to play power 5 D1 baseball and their parents want to brag about them playing D1. I use quotes because there is so much overlap in baseball levels that I think its naive to go by D numbers. You can find D1 rotations throwing in the 80s and you can find an NAIA program with 3 pitchers in the 90s and their top pitcher touching 99.
I also think a lot of the frustration comes from it not sinking in with people that most baseball programs recruit players close to their same area, most baseball players also end up playing for programs closer to their general home area. I feel very fortunate that a friend who already went through baseball recruiting told me this when my oldest was just starting out trying to play past HS and fortunate that it actually sank in. There does seem to be a huge push to parents that if you aren't playing in GA or Fl all of the time you aren't getting the most out of exposure. If you are not living in the southeast all of that travel and cost for hotels is going to add up quick. If you do go all out and travel to these tournaments and don't get what you expect with recruiting results disappointment with the whole process is going to come pretty fast.
JA' CRISPY wrote,
"If you do go all out and travel to these tournaments and don't get what you expect with recruiting results disappointment with the whole process is going to come pretty fast."
Already happening - all over the country.
adbono sums it up pretty good. There will always be those associations who will tell you what you want to hear and invest in. Actually that is pretty much life in general. They are in business to teach kids baseball skills and to hopefully get better. Of course I will never accept falsehoods, but again it is the parent's job to weed out the good and the bad. It will never be proven but there is no way to turn a kid into a professional athlete. You can teach him the knowledge, train him on proper mechanics, give him countless lessons, tournaments, travel ball, etc but there are countless non controllable (to an extent) factors. Hopefully all these wannabe parents will realize it is destiny. You can provide the opportunities, resources, finance, and support and if this correlates with the kid's destiny and makeup (sex, size, talent, wisdom, desire, etc) you will increase the likelihood of him going to the next level, never a guarentee. I glanced at my son's D1 baseball roster and every player had "all-something" and accolades. I'm sure every one of them as entering freshmen saw themselves as being a starter, all-conference, all american, or going to the next level. Most likely they spent countless hours and dollars with lessons, travel ball, showcases, and tournaments. Maybe 1/2 saw any meaningful playing time, and only a few went on to the next level. Supply and demand...when parents accept if their son has it or not is when those less than accurate entities will start to decrease. Nothing wrong though in doing all you can if that is what your child wants. Gives the foundation for parents/child bonding and doing things as a family. My son was lucky/foruntate in that he had a good high school and college career. He is almost there (the show) as he is listed in the Top 100 MiLB prospects. Growing up we had an understanding when he got tired of baseball it would stop. We checked with him many times. We did it all, lessons, travel ball, tournaments, park leagues not so he could play in college but because he loved it. Baseball became family trips/vacations. Nobody in my family ever played any sports beyond high school, thus there was no family pressure factor. It wasn't until his soph high school year did we realized he is kinda good at baseball. Yes it was pretty late recruiting wise for college thus I don't recommend taking this route. If he stopped playing baseball after high school was it all worth it? Yes, definitely. We did it not to make a career or scholarship for him but to make us a better family as a whole.
As Steve A. said, real quality commentary here.
Given the time frame in the OP, I think there will be massive changes in two areas -- video and data. Historically, recruiters have had to go see players play in person, and PG (and others) helped make that easier and more efficient for the recruiters. In 20 years I think there will be so much high-quality video and data (pitching velo, exit velo, spin rate) available from high school games (I know of one high school that has already purchased a Rapsodo unit) that we will be astounded at the changes. Sure, there will still be high-level tournaments pitting the top players against each other, but day-in and day-out it will be a lot easier for a recruiter to recruit out of his area.
P.S. -- yes, not many high schools can afford a couple thousand bucks for a Rapsodo unit, but what if that technology were $100? The time frame of 15-20 years will bring astonishing reductions in the cost of the advanced tracking technologies. And webcasting will be so normal (and so much better quality) that it will seem odd that a high school doesn't webcast its games.
younggun posted:This is your responsibility as a parent, in my opinion. Don't listen to the white noise. You have to do the homework and research.
BOOM! Superb!!
RJM posted:Golfman25 posted:I'll just say this. It's all about steps and levels. There is nothing wrong with playing "travel ball" as a youth. There are many types of programs to choose from -- glorified rec league to semi-pro. Pick what works for you, have fun and play. There is a learning process there -- compete and get better. The goal should be to contribute in HS.
Once in HS, then you decide whether you want to play at the "next level." And work to get yourself there. But as others have said, be realistic. That means for most, traveling around the country to showcases is a waste of time/money for recruiting purposes. But everyone thinks you need to be there to be "seen." If your legit D1, sure that's probably true to provide maximum opportunities. But for most, you just clog up the park. We know several kids who did it -- they were D3 players and traveled from AZ to GA. Guess where they ended up. At the local D3s -- all less than an hour away from home. No scholarship, lots of money spent. college baseball players will play within a couple hundred miles of home. For most players the money is best spent at the best showcases within their 200 mile zone.
Most college players will play within a couple hundred miles of home. For most players the money is best spent at the top showcase for their ability within that 200 mile zone. PG (GA and FL) is for top players looking to play in Power 5’s and other top programs, top players looking to compete against the best and players loooking to get in front of pro scouts. Even a lot of these players play within 200 miles of home.
That's right. But if you look at the number of teams and players at the "big" events every year, you see there is a lot more supply (players) than demand (spots). A lot of the kids are on the back fields wondering where their "dream" is going. IMO, the events should be smaller and cater to the exact player you describe.
RJM posted:Are those (players and parents) the least happy the ones who don’t or didn’t grasp where the kid fits in the game talent wise? It can be frustrating to attempt to place a square peg in a round hole.
I've thought about this (after my Modelo Negra fueled happy, happy, happy post on this thread last night). At least in terms of root cause. My son has done very well last year or so. He's getting projected higher by PG / baseball people than my expectations. I thought if he could play at all after High School that would be really good. I guess it's easier to "enjoy the ride" since he is having success. Also, it puts him among other players that are having success, hence happy people around me.
Maybe my mind was closed. His wasn't. He told me about a year plus ago he wanted to go to PG and prove it. (To many of us in Texas, PG is a once a year thing for the WWBA. That's the big deal.) So I found him a top team (through this board), he went and showed out. Lot's of fun.
Teaching Elder posted:I think that high school showcase baseball is about to take a pretty severe hit. Here's why.
More and more, state high school athletic associations are allowing sports/teams/coaches to do things in the off-season. In GA teams can practice in June and play games. A coach is foolish if he doesn't say to his players, "If you aren't clear D1, and maybe even draft-worthy, material, you don't need to be bothering with showcase baseball. You are throwing money away on uniforms, and administrative costs, and get zero training. You will show up with 25 other guys on your team and play for a college kid looking to make a little side money. Chances are that a recruiter will never even come out and see anyone on your team play.
As a team we will practice together in the summer, then as a team we will enter and play in the same tournaments. You will be seen by the same people. We will wear our high school uniforms and you won't be paying a bunch of administrative and "recruiting" costs. I have connections in the coaching world. I can get you seen- if you deserve it. I will be coaching you and training you in the summer. So, you will actually be improving during that time - a big plus. If you want to play showcase baseball afterwards, I will help you get on a team; it's your money."
A coach that gives up this opportunity to work with his team during the summer instead of farming them out to showcase baseball will probably not be making the best decision from a personal career perspective.
As for kiddie travel ball. The present generation knows enough now to train their own kid in the skills to succeed. They don't need some guy who himself couldn't make it and now trains kids at a warehouse or the latest internet know it all, or some guy with a belt or a balance board or a stick that makes a noise when you swing correctly or super secret olympic lifting program in order to teach their sons how to play.
Will the next generation continue the self-centered child worshipping practices of their parents? That will be the big x-factor.
That is essentially what is happening in my area. The real studs go off for the summer. The rest of the team stays home and plays with their "HS" team. They have to change the uniform, hat, and name, but that is about it. Then the problem becomes whether you HS coaching staff is any good. Some are and some, unfortunately, aren't.
Back to the OP. Not sure humans will exist in 15 years. Here's a quick video of why....
https://houston.sportsmap.com/...-seen-future-sports/
You’re way late. Rod Serling had it figgered in 1960.
Golfman25 posted:Teaching Elder posted:I think that high school showcase baseball is about to take a pretty severe hit. Here's why.
More and more, state high school athletic associations are allowing sports/teams/coaches to do things in the off-season. In GA teams can practice in June and play games. A coach is foolish if he doesn't say to his players, "If you aren't clear D1, and maybe even draft-worthy, material, you don't need to be bothering with showcase baseball. You are throwing money away on uniforms, and administrative costs, and get zero training. You will show up with 25 other guys on your team and play for a college kid looking to make a little side money. Chances are that a recruiter will never even come out and see anyone on your team play.
As a team we will practice together in the summer, then as a team we will enter and play in the same tournaments. You will be seen by the same people. We will wear our high school uniforms and you won't be paying a bunch of administrative and "recruiting" costs. I have connections in the coaching world. I can get you seen- if you deserve it. I will be coaching you and training you in the summer. So, you will actually be improving during that time - a big plus. If you want to play showcase baseball afterwards, I will help you get on a team; it's your money."
A coach that gives up this opportunity to work with his team during the summer instead of farming them out to showcase baseball will probably not be making the best decision from a personal career perspective.
As for kiddie travel ball. The present generation knows enough now to train their own kid in the skills to succeed. They don't need some guy who himself couldn't make it and now trains kids at a warehouse or the latest internet know it all, or some guy with a belt or a balance board or a stick that makes a noise when you swing correctly or super secret olympic lifting program in order to teach their sons how to play.
Will the next generation continue the self-centered child worshipping practices of their parents? That will be the big x-factor.
That is essentially what is happening in my area. The real studs go off for the summer. The rest of the team stays home and plays with their "HS" team. They have to change the uniform, hat, and name, but that is about it. Then the problem becomes whether you HS coaching staff is any good. Some are and some, unfortunately, aren't.
IMO, hs teachers and coaches are vastly underpaid. Many will use their own money and resources to teach and coach. Some love working with kids, teaching and coaching, some have other reasons. Either way I believe you pay them what they are worth and that will bring better competition for the job. Students win with better education, better qualified coaches will be available, etc. Now the only question is how to generate more money for the schools and being used appropriately!
