Skip to main content

456 replies

Basic Batsmanship

P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Chameleon,

That was a great explanation and I for one have no problem with anything you've said.

If you go back over the previous posts you will see my major problem is with making contact at the point the stride foot touches. You'll notice I've never mentioned anything regarding heel drop and rotate.

Making contact at the time the stride foot touches IMO might be physically possible, but it won't be very productive. I do believe in getting the swing started in regards to feel I jus can't see it making contact at the point of foot touch. And even if that were possible, when and how do you not swing. Intent is very important, but it is just as important to be able to stop. If the barrel is to the point of contact at the time the stride foot touches... You either have to stride hard and fast or commit to early.

BTW - What are your thoughts on this statement by Quincy, especially the part in bold...

quote:
In the second phase of the swing, the bat is at great speed until the bat is forced to turn by the hands thus the wrist break (prefferably right over the plate) again increasing speed.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
If we all agree on the position of the body at point of contact. For sake of example... the belly button should be pointing where on ideal contact.

Depending on what anyone thinks, I think we would all agree that at point of contact... hips are open or nearly open.

To make contact at foot touch, you would have to touchdown with your hips open. This is completely different than getting things started. There are some very good hitting coaches who believe in getting the hips to cheat in order to open enough on the inside pitch.

What Chamelion describes as feel... most scouts would describe as rhythm. Good rhythm has a flow rather than a stopping starting action.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
That's why I said 'almost perfect'.

It is very clear that his weight is back as he begins his swing. His power is not generated by the leg plant but by the weight shift, the wrist whip and the hip rotation.

Quick swing, no sling shot or catapult action from the front foot planting.




If the front foot isn't down, how is there a weight SHIFT? It is still on the back foot.
B baseballpapa100+ posts
Sorry I haven't kept up. When I said that if contact were made before the front foot landed, that would be real late, I meant the foot landing would be late, not the contact of the ball.

I think the idea of getting the foot down early is because most hitters are late on fastballs. I think the front foot has a lot to do with timing. Sosa in the tap, tap, stride. Bonds similar. Even A-Rod with the high leg kick is timing. That is why "early" doesn't work. The reason "early" dodoeses work is because most hitters are late. The reason they are late is generally their mechanics are not sound or they simply are slow. Most players if they keep playing are going to be too slow. That is why there are 9 players x 30 teams who seem to make it.

Coaches, you shouldn't teach to get the foot down "early." Find out why you have to coach that and fix the problem.

If you agree the front foot has something to do with timing then "early" is "early" and "late" is "late." In summary, it is a symptom of a problem.

My kid is starting to throw pretty hard. A lot of hitters are putting what I call "protection swings" on him just to get the ball in play. Most hitting coaches would like the simplicity and lack of momemtum (dead head, dead hands, foot down early) associated with this. Unfortunately (for the offense) it is getting hard to score on him. He gives up very few extra-base hits and strikes out over 1/inning. In other words, the teams getting the foot down early are not scoring on him. Since he is a pitcher (now) I want you to continue to teach "early", little hand movement, little head movement, and a very efficient swing.
Last edited by baseballpapa
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
There is a "feel" to the stride....The hips are opening and the "intent" is being decided.....

There are varying degrees as to when the "intent" is decided.....It could be a little early or a little late....The hitter may be able to adjust perfectly or not so perfectly.....The speed and location of that particular pitch factors in.....There may be a late swing adjustment and there may not be........

Hitters with good rhythm are the ones who begin the stride early enough, but, can speed it up and/or slow it down, IMO....
Last edited by BlueDog
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
PG,

With this swing approach, if contact is at 12 o' clock, then the belly button would be at one thity or two o' clock.

Try to consider the hips opening at wrist break.. Look at ARod again. Wrist break is an involuntary action due to the speed of the bat.

Mic,

Each step you take, you are shifting body weight with one foot on the ground. Weight shift can be as subtle as a slight lean on one foot or two.

BPapa,

Congratulations on your son's success. I'll bet them slow swingers at the high cheese are providing a healthy lunch. I'm imagining batters facing Goose Gossage when he first came up.

I was in the same situation favoring pitchers for the past few years. Now that only a few are still in high school, I can stretch out on hitting a bit. The others are either in college or A ball this year.

Remind your son that Location is King when pitching to quality batters. I showed many kids how to nullify power with the high inside strike or 'Balboni Fastball'
B baseballpapa100+ posts
Hips are opening before the foot lands. (I learned this on this website). The hands start coming forward and the rotation accelerates once the front heel lands. That is why PG is correct, the hips are open at contact. The wrists are palm-up and palm-down but there is wrist action into and through the ball.

The outside pitch is taken later and the inside pitch out front. Middle pitches with square contact. The outside pitch can have a batter not fully open on the hips, but not inside or middle pitches.
B baseballpapa100+ posts
Bluedog,

The bat is initiated and the barrel comes close to the shoulder as the bat goes into position. If not the hitter would have to "cast" the barrel out at initiation. Therefore, something brings the barrel around. It is the wrists. Most hitting coaches think it is the top hand. It is not, it is the top and bottom hand ripping the barrel through. Both hands initite the knob down and both hands rip the barrel into a hitting position.
ChameleonChameleon100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
To make contact at foot touch, you would have to touchdown with your hips open. This is completely different than getting things started.


May I ask "What are you saying" here?



I see Bonds and Williams hips/foot/leg/knee all begin to open as soon as they pick up their foot to stride. The hips open immediately and this creates stretch against the closed upper body.

This stretch is extremely important....the winding of the rubber band......lower body opens as the upper body remains closed.

Starting the winding process late is the big cause of poor hitting.....NOT getting the foot down late.

Waiting until the foot gets down to wind is the problem.

As to the wrist question....

At the point of the bat going from lag to contact there is NONE. What is seen at this point in the swing is the bat uncocking the wrist....not the wrist uncocking the bat. The wrists uncock the bat at "go". From there it is on autopilot through lag and into contact.
Last edited by Chameleon
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
To make contact at foot touch, you would have to touchdown with your hips open. This is completely different than getting things started.


May I ask "What are you saying" here?



I see Bonds and Williams hips/foot/leg/knee all begin to open as soon as they pick up their foot to stride. The hips open immediately and this creates stretch against the closed upper body.

Starting the winding process late is the big cause of poor hitting.....NOT getting the foot down late.



At the point of the bat going from lag to contact there is NONE. What is seen at this point in the swing is the bat uncocking the wrist....not the wrist uncocking the bat. The wrists uncock the bat at "go". From there it is on autopilot through lag and into contact.




They are both cocking their hips as their foot is raised and uncocking as it goes down.

I agree that the hips should be open before the barrel is launced, but you are nuts if you think the bat uncocks the wrists.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
[
That is not what Chameleon said.........

Micmeister, understand what is said before declaring someone to be nuts, please!.....The discussion is a mute case if you don't follow what is being discussed.......




As to the wrist question....

At the point of the bat going from lag to contact there is NONE. What is seen at this point in the swing is the bat uncocking the wrist....not the wrist uncocking the bat. The wrists uncock the bat at "go". From there it is on autopilot through lag and into contact.



Okay, I misread that part of his quote, but I'm pretty sure I understand what he's saying here. He is saying once the top hand fires, it's job is over. If that were the case, you could let go at that point. That's like saying the pushers in a bobsled race don't have to be fast runners. They can just be strong, make one big push and jump in. That's just craziness IMO. The whole physics arguement is mute also, it doesn't apply here. We aren't on the moon, so gravity, friction, the bat still being held by the bottom hand and oh, the ball striking the bat at 90 plus mph all happen that make the bat slow down. If you don't keep up the momentum through contact, the bat will win.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
There is a "feel" to the stride....The hips are opening and the "intent" is being decided.....

There are varying degrees as to when the "intent" is decided.....It could be a little early or a little late....The hitter may be able to adjust perfectly or not so perfectly.....The speed and location of that particular pitch factors in.....There may be a late swing adjustment and there may not be........

Hitters with good rhythm are the ones who begin the stride early enough, but, can speed it up and/or slow it down, IMO....




I agree with all but the last sentence. You don't need a stride at all, so how do those guys adjust???
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
Mic,

Your lack of understanding basic physics and simple mechanics is very telling.

Mostly your posts tell me that you haven't been swinging a bat in while.

What's sad is that you would know and come to understand more when you give this method a try.

The weather is still nice. The kids are playing fall ball. Go on out to the field and take a few cuts your way and then try this way.
Last edited by Quincy
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
To make contact at foot touch, you would have to touchdown with your hips open. This is completely different than getting things started.


May I ask "What are you saying" here?

Starting the hips is the beginning stage of having them open at contact. No one that I've ever seen is completly open when their stride foot touches down.

Therefore making contact at the exact point the stride foot touches down can't possibly be "ideal".

If a hitter did this, he would either: 1. lose the rubber band effect you speak of. 2. get no benefit at all out of his stride foot (either on the front side or against it). 3. The hitter would not have good balance. 4. The hitter couldn't possibly cover the plate or adjust to off speed.

Or the hitter simply didn't open his hips and just lunged.

Any or all of these things would in fact eliminate the stretch you speak of.

Still waiting for thoughts on the wrist break... "ideally" right on top of the plate as the stride foot touches down and contact is made.
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
quote:
"ideally" right on top of the plate as the stride foot touches down and contact is made.


Not what I said, but might be what is blocking your understanding.

Break down the swing into four parts. Pick up a bat and try this.

1) Generate bat speed simultaneously using the stride, wrist and hip rotation in the first quarter of the swing. Now relax.

2) In the second phase of the swing, the bat is at great speed until the bat is forced to turn by the hands thus the wrist break (prefferably right over the plate) again increasing speed.

3) The bat is now a projectile being affected by centripetal forces. Still relaxed, allow the bat (now at its greatest accelleration) to make contact with the ball.

4) Followthrough, decreasing the speed of the bat with your arms and hands.

Another block you may have is the insistence that adjustment should take place while the 'swing' is in motion. Adjustment should be made as to location and pitch speed before the swing.

Chameleon has a very good clip of Bonds adjusting before the swing.

.
Last edited by Quincy
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
quote:
"ideally" right on top of the plate as the stride foot touches down and contact is made.


Not what I said, but might be what is blocking your understanding.

Break down the swing into four parts. Pick up a bat and try this.

1) Generate bat speed simultaneously using the stride, wrist and hip rotation in the first quarter of the swing. Now relax.

2) In the second phase of the swing, the bat is at great speed until the bat is forced to turn by the hands thus the wrist break (prefferably right over the plate) again increasing speed.

3) The bat is now a projectile being affected by centripetal forces. Still relaxed, allow the bat (now at its greatest accelleration) to make contact with the ball.

4) Followthrough, decreasing the speed of the bat with your arms and hands.

Another block you may have is the insistence that adjustment should take place while the 'swing' is in motion. Adjustment should be made as to location and pitch speed before the swing.

Chameleon has a very good clip of Bonds adjusting before the swing.

.




One of my "blocks" as you call it, may be this - "centripetal forces." What in the world is that??? Another may be "Adjustments should be made before the swing." How would I make an "adjustment" to something that hasn't happened yet? Another may be your whole #1 statement. How can I start something in motion, relax and start it again and expect it to be faster? What was gained by the first part of the swing? Why not just start the swing where you say you should relax for the first time?

Lastly, I would love to take what you say seriously and go out and experiment with it, but I have no idea how to do what you are saying.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Quincy,

I will admit to being confused.

Sorry I replaced the word Preferably with ideally.

Allow me to ask a few questions.

In 1) What are you calling the first quarter of the swing? How much rotation in the first quarter? what do the wrists do in the first quarter? Wouldn't there be another step before step 1?

In 2) What is the second phase to a swing? Why would it be preferable to break your wrists right over the plate.

In 3) Make contact where? By this time wouldn't the stride foot have already touched?

quote:
Another block you may have is the insistence that adjustment should take place while the 'swing' is in motion. Adjustment should be made as to location and pitch speed before the swing.

Sorry, but if you stride, rotate and make contact with your wrists breaking right on top of the plate as your stride foot first touches down... You are completely commited, bat making contact, hips open, as soon as the stride foot touches down. How do you adjust?

I would ask how in all honesty can anyone agree with this? My main problem here is trying to figure out how and why anyone who has studied hitting could possibly think contact is made when the stride foot touches let alone with wrist break on top of the plate. Shortly there after... OK

All the video that has been produced here so far, has not shown anything even similiar to what you are saying. For crying out loud, hit the pause button until you can see it.

A question for Chamelian and Blue Dog...

Do you guys teach Quincy's 4 step approach exactly as he has drawn it out in this thread? I'm not saying everything he has said is wrong, but I keep thinking about that point of contact.

I'm all for having an open mind, but geez!
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
Centripetal Force

Any motion in a curved path represents accelerated motion, and requires a force directed toward the center of curvature of the path. This force is called the centripetal force which means "center seeking" force.


Swinging a mass on a string requires string tension, and the mass will travel off in a tangential straight line if the string breaks.

The centripetal acceleration can be derived for the case of circular motion since the curved path at any point can be extended to a circle.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html

READING THE BALL
By Dr. John Bagonzi

Real good batters are likely quite adept at “reading the ball,” and recognizing spins which enhances their ability to choose a pitch carefully.
Reading the ball requires an aerodynamic awareness. It requires an attentiveness and a focus on a particular point – something that many are not willing or able to do. It demands a purposeful intent to achieve a consciousness on a rotating body and removing any inhibitions one has towards the physics of moving objects.

http://pitchingprofessor.com/article_reading_the_ball.html

A 90 mph or slightly better fastball takes aproximately .5 seconds (half a second)to reach the plate.

The average swing approach with foot plant before forward motion in the swing takes at least .2 seconds (two tenths a second).

This swing approach takes less time due to executing the swing without foot plant as the forward force producing factor of the swing.

It takes about .1 seconds (one tenth a second).

This allows additional time to read the pitch, react to what is seen, as well as generate more force and bat speed.

You implied that you golf. Swing a bat a few times as you would swing a driver off the tee, full swing. Forget everything you know about swinging a baseball bat. Use the technique from the start using that same fluid feeling in the golf swing of the bat.

.I hope that clears it up for you.
Last edited by Quincy
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:

Allow me to ask a few questions.

In 1) What are you calling the first quarter of the swing? How much rotation in the first quarter? what do the wrists do in the first quarter? Wouldn't there be another step before step 1?

In 2) What is the second phase to a swing? Why would it be preferable to break your wrists right over the plate.

In 3) Make contact where? By this time wouldn't the stride foot have already touched?


1) Generate bat speed simultaneously using the stride, wrist and hip rotation in the first quarter of the swing. Now relax.

2) 'Right over the plate' may give you the visual that the batter is reaching out over the plate. In my terminology, it is directly in front of the batter which would represent dead center in the pendulum swing. This pendulum action is what 'breaks the wrists' or uncocks the wrist as was also stated.

3) The bat is now a projectile being affected by centripetal forces. Still relaxed, allow the bat (now at its greatest accelleration) to make contact with the ball.

This would happen slightly in front of the plate as displayed in almost every film clip of a great hitter.

.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
Centripetal Force

Any motion in a curved path represents accelerated motion, and requires a force directed toward the center of curvature of the path. This force is called the centripetal force which means "center seeking" force.


Swinging a mass on a string requires string tension, and the mass will travel off in a tangential straight line if the string breaks.

The centripetal acceleration can be derived for the case of circular motion since the curved path at any point can be extended to a circle.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html

READING THE BALL
By Dr. John Bagonzi

Real good batters are likely quite adept at “reading the ball,” and recognizing spins which enhances their ability to choose a pitch carefully.
Reading the ball requires an aerodynamic awareness. It requires an attentiveness and a focus on a particular point – something that many are not willing or able to do. It demands a purposeful intent to achieve a consciousness on a rotating body and removing any inhibitions one has towards the physics of moving objects.

http://pitchingprofessor.com/article_reading_the_ball.html

A 90 mph or slightly better fastball takes aproximately .5 seconds (half a second)to reach the plate.

The average swing approach with foot plant before forward motion in the swing takes at least .2 seconds (two tenths a second).

This swing approach takes less time due to executing the swing without foot plant as the forward force producing factor of the swing.

It takes about .1 seconds (one tenth a second).

This allows additional time to read the pitch, react to what is seen, as well as generate more force and bat speed.

You implied that you golf. Swing a bat a few times as you would swing a driver off the tee, full swing. Forget everything you know about swinging a baseball bat. Use the technique from the start using that same fluid feeling in the golf swing of the bat.

.I hope that clears it up for you.




Quincy,

Thanks for clearing up the cenripetal issue for me. I believe the thing that has clouded your thinking is that you are equating swinging a bat to tether ball. There are many differences. One very big difference is the fact that one doesn't swing holding a center point at the knob of the bat. Your theory would work if you tied a string to an eyehook on the bottom of the knob, stretched the string and threw the bat. Unfortunately, none of that happens in a swing. IMO, the bottom hand does act as the post somewhat in your scenario and that is why I say you can't take both hands to the ball at the same time. However, in the swing the bottom hand and wrist will slow the bat if force is not continually applied with the top hand.

As far as equating this swing to a golf swing, again, you can't hit the ball as far standing on one foot and you can't let go of the top hand after you've started the swing in motion. I agree that you need to feel the clubhead in golf and the bathead in baseball, but you still need to use your hands to keep them in motion.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:

Allow me to ask a few questions.

In 1) What are you calling the first quarter of the swing? How much rotation in the first quarter? what do the wrists do in the first quarter? Wouldn't there be another step before step 1?

In 2) What is the second phase to a swing? Why would it be preferable to break your wrists right over the plate.

In 3) Make contact where? By this time wouldn't the stride foot have already touched?


1) Generate bat speed simultaneously using the stride, wrist and hip rotation in the first quarter of the swing. Now relax.

2) 'Right over the plate' may give you the visual that the batter is reaching out over the plate. In my terminology, it is directly in front of the batter which would represent dead center in the pendulum swing. This pendulum action is what 'breaks the wrists' or uncocks the wrist as was also stated.

3) The bat is now a projectile being affected by centripetal forces. Still relaxed, allow the bat (now at its greatest accelleration) to make contact with the ball.

This would happen slightly in front of the plate as displayed in almost every film clip of a great hitter.

.




I would suggest to you, bluedog, and chameleon to go to a batting cage that throws 90 mph and use just your bottom hand to hit and see if you don't feel the bat bouncing back in your hand.
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
Mic,

I can tell you used to be an outfielder since your last two posts were so far out in left field.

I know you have to be joking because nobody could be so devoid of knowledge of swing mechanics, gaining simple mechanical advantage or circular motion while discussing a 'swing' of any nature.

Jeff Foxworthy says that I should just say that it is the karate swing.

Just to be safe, have the lead level of your well water tested.

.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
Mic,

I can tell you used to be an outfielder since your last two posts were so far out in left field.

I know you have to be joking because nobody could be so devoid of knowledge of swing mechanics, gaining simple mechanical advantage or circular motion while discussing a 'swing' of any nature.

Jeff Foxworthy says that I should just say that it is the karate swing.

Just to be safe, have the lead level of your well water tested.

.




So...you are saying you can hit the ball with just your bottom hand and the bat won't bounce back???


I'm not the one who said make contact at foot plant, you are! I'm not the one who said to start a violent act (a swing) and then relax and start again, you are!

I can equate you with a comedian and a movie too. Jim Carey and Dumb and Dumber!

Since your swing mechanics are so simple and so successful, you should be teaching some High school and College players and become their agent too. You will be a millionaire in no time! Good luck with your yacht!
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
quote:
So...you are saying you can hit the ball with just your bottom hand and the bat won't bounce back???

I'm not the one who said to start a violent act (a swing) and then relax and start again, you are!


I never said these things, you did.

When did I equate you to a comedian and/or movie?

I didn't say that you were Jeff Foxworthy. He says that he is smarter than a fifth grader. I liked his line about the 'karate swing' though.

I'll call Larry the Cable Guy to see what he thinks.
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
A hitting instructor can go along way to validating what he teaches by naming those people that he has instructed. Who are they? Where did they play in college? Did they play professional baseball? Quincy, can you please give us some names of the players you have instructed in batsmanship? If I were a student looking for a hitting instructor who could you point to as a former student that you have helped like you are going to help me? Who is he , where does he play etc etc. Anyone with the wealth of knowledge that you have should certainly have no problem naming numerous players we should recognize. Or at the least some HS aged players in your fine sunshine state. Im sure with your instruction we should have no problem finding them on PG Crosschecker as some of the top hitters in your state.
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
I'm not a hitting instructor. I give tips on playing the various facets of the game. I always say, 'Give it a try and see if it works for you.' Those who do, come back and say thank you only to be told that they are the ones who did well, not me.

While PG Crosschecker is very prestigious, they do not see all that there is to see. They make sellections on MLB shopping lists.

One of the best games of last season here in Tampa had a soon to be third round draft pick with a strong hitting team behind him duel for seven innings against a great little pitcher and a weak hitting team to a one-one tie after seven. The other kid wasn't on the list.

Though PG Crosschecker had a very good hitting ballplayer high on their list that barely ever saw a fastball that he could hit for a homer. Funy how a few tips can nullify power.

I'll never name names. I'll continue to say 'Give it a try and see if it works for you.'

Just like this swing approach.

You probably have noticed that none of the naysayers have picked up a bat.

If I ever need endorsements, I'll have others make them.
M micmeister500+ posts
[QUOTE]Originally posted by micmeister:
http://chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Profes...sis_AlbertPujols.pdf



For Chameleon and Bluedog,

How does Pujols get from frame 20 to 22 if he isn't pushing/throwing with his top hand? Why would his right arm need to be bent at contact? If the wrists are no longer doing any work after go, as you say, why would it matter how the hands were placed on the bat at contact. Why couldn't a one armed man hit a 90mph fastball out of a MLB park? On that same thought, why do one arm guys always use their back arm to hit with? Thanks in advance for your replies!
Last edited by micmeister
PreviousNext

Add Reply

Post
Baseball Sale Canada

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Advanced Search
Advanced Search
Link copied to your clipboard.
×