Basic Batsmanship

quote:

Although you have yet to contribute anything of substance to this discussion, I will indulge you for a moment.

The hips cant turn hard until the front foot plants...The hips go before cantact...making your ideal contact "theory"...well a theory, and a poor one.

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I won't tell you that I have hit shots to left center measured at 560 feet with this swing. There is no point.

I agree, there is no point telling me this.

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What I will tell you is that using and trusting this swing will give you results comparable to a religious experience.

Fraud.

That has been your opinion all along.

I have to admit that you are consistent also.

You have yet to offer anything of value to this discussion.

I could tell you that a guy has driven a golf ball over five hundred yards from the tee, but you wouldn't believe that either.

I'll save you a seat on the golf cart.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
That has been your opinion all along.

I have to admit that you are consistent also.

You have yet to offer anything of value to this discussion.

I could tell you that a guy has driven a golf ball over five hundred yards from the tee, but you wouldn't believe that either.

I'll save you a seat on the golf cart.

Great stuff... Maybe the 500 yard drive had contact being made right at foot plant...

quote:

You have yet to offer anything of value to this discussion.

Then that makes two of us.

golf balls

baseballs

are they the same? I had Rocky Mountain Oysters once--are they the same ?

I always am bewildered how one can equate hitting a baseball with hitting a golf ball---one is moving and the other is stationary---

-EDITED DUE TO ATTACK-

Nope, I'm teaching them how to gain as much advantage as they can with what they got.

And I'm not charging them.

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Quincy

Just more doubletalk from you--what age are these kids you are "teaching"


And who asked if you were charging them ? Guilty Conscience eh

Not charging for the knowledge that I have gleaned at no cost does not make me feel guilty at all.

I'll go back to ignoring you and Dee rather than having the thread highjacked.

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Quincy


the floor is all yours----just listening to the Beatles "Fool on the Hill"


By the way you still dont say what age the kids are that are receiving your so called "Knowledge"

I am amazed that sveral people can look at photos/videos and see totally different things.
I can't see how some can't see the foot is planted before the bat comes anywhere near the plate.
I know a guy who keeps his foot up late but he is planted when the bat makes contact. He struggles with hitting for average.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Not charging for the knowledge that I have gleaned at no cost does not make me feel guilty at all.

I'll go back to ignoring you and Dee rather than having the thread highjacked.

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The best part is how you give video and picture evidence to prove your theory......oh wait, that was Chameleon.

Mic,

Check this guy out. Bobby Jones was amazed by the distance he got on his swing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM31BIgSzVg&NR=1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zghuQ5Nl3b8&NR=1

wrist action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWn3nTmvCWA&NR=1
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What are we supposted to see that supports your views ?

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Mic,

Check this guy out. Bobby Jones was amazed by the distance he got on his swing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM31BIgSzVg&NR=1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zghuQ5Nl3b8&NR=1

wrist action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWn3nTmvCWA&NR=1
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Okay, are you trying to say weight shift point and wrist explosion point at contact point? Again, I agree, but the guy in the golf swing is planting his foot well before contact. The one major difference in the golf swing and the baseball swing is that the ball is at the bottom of your pendulum swing and you are trying to hit it with the head which is at the bottom of the club.

Mic,

How would you translate the swing mechanics to the kids you are coaching and teaching?

You see the correlation, but maybe you can translate it better than I have.

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Quincy,

I have not contributed on this forum in quite some time. I have been reading this thread, and I would like to ask if you feel that there are any MLB examples of hitters who make contact as their foot is landing? I have not seen any.

From my review of video, there are no hitters at that level, or any other level who do this. The standard is to plant the foot, then put the bat in motion. All you need is a VCR, or go to the many clip sites on the internet and play swings in slow motion.

quote:

Originally posted by LevelPath19:
Quincy,

I have not contributed on this forum in quite some time. I have been reading this thread, and I would like to ask if you feel that there are any MLB examples of hitters who make contact as their foot is landing? I have not seen any.

From my review of video, there are no hitters at that level, or any other level who do this. The standard is to plant the foot, then put the bat in motion. All you need is a VCR, or go to the many clip sites on the internet and play swings in slow motion.

There are many video examples on THIS THREAD,even some posted by Quincy that show this statement to be true.

Most hitters are also batting below .250.

Should we accept that as the norm?

I see the better hitters staying back the longest and maintaining balance and control. This can't be done on the front foot.

Front foot hitters get fooled more, pop up more and strike out more.

Using techniques employing better balance and faster swing mechanics is what separates the short timers from the long timers in the game.

Even Ichiro doesn't do it and he is basically a slap hitter with a GREAT batting average.

Just one example,that is all we ask.

I am sorry but I just don't think you can find one.

If you go back and read from the start, there is no mention whatsoever of where the foot would be when making contact except that there is no catapult action off the front foot.

Ideally, the perfect swing would make contact when the front foot is landing. Perfection is a rare thing even in nature.

If the only flaw that you can find is when the front foot lands or as one person mentioned that they have balance problems, I think the criticism is trivial.

The important factors are the explosive start and using gravity and other natural forces to aid in the swing.

You see the bat in motion before foot plant many times from the better hitters. This is not using front foot plant and catapult action.

quote:

Front foot hitters get fooled more, pop up more and strike out more.

Quincy,

I agree with what you've stated above, except...

Front foot hitters also get more hits, hit more home runs, more walks, more everything... simply because there are many more of them.

We need to see how much weight is on the back foot at contact position in the best hitters, when they have hit the ball the best.

I think all of us would agree that Pujols has a very good efficient swing. On page 6 of this thread, micmeister posted a link to Pujols swing by Chris Oleary. Clip 22 is moment of contact. Is there "any" weight on the back foot? Is there any weight on the stride foot?

Not sure I've heard anyone talking about catapult action here. Did someone mention catapult action?

Bottom line... I can understand why someone might believe it is best to get the swing started early, with the stride. Not that I believe it, but that would be a theory that all people interested in hitting might at least listen carefully to. But if I'm reading correctly, you are saying it is best to be a backfoot hitter.

The biggest problem remains when you still say ideal contact would be made as the stride foot touches.

A couple comments in red..

quote:

If you go back and read from the start, there is no mention whatsoever of where the foot would be when making contact except that there is no catapult action off the front foot.

The question hasn't been where the foot lands but rather when it lands and contact being made at that point. That has been mentioned over and over. And on that one point no one shares your theory and no one can find proof of it ever happening. Not even in golf! Sometimes it's best to learn rather than teach. No one knows everything, everyone is wrong at times. Lord knows, I lead the way on being wrong.


Ideally, the perfect swing would make contact when the front foot is landing. Perfection is a rare thing even in nature.

I really do believe you have helped some young hitters with this advice. I just think they take parts of what you tell them and aren't able to do what you're saying. My problem is you are now claiming that in the "PERFECT" swing, ideally contact is made when the front foot is landing. If a young kid had no knowledge other than the above and hears this is "basic" technique, I think he would be starting off on the wrong track. There's a good reason why the no stride approach became popular. Not that I necessarily agree with that either.

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Ideally, the perfect swing would make contact when the front foot is landing. Perfection is a rare thing even in nature.

Nothing about this resembles perfection. Telling a hitter to try and make contact as the front foot touches down is detrimental advice to a hitter at best.

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The important factors are the explosive start and using gravity and other natural forces to aid in the swing.

Then why tell a hitter to wait until foot plant to make contact? How can a turn become "explosive" with out the front foot being planted. The middle of the body CANT TURN WITH FORCE until the front foot is planted. What your suggesting is the opposite of explosive. Stand on one foot and see how much force you can turn your hips with.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:

Ideally, the perfect swing would make contact when the front foot is landing. Perfection is a rare thing even in nature.

You lose any credilbility with this statement. It is like saying that a Pitcher should be releasing the ball as the foot is landing. You need the feet underneath you, palnted, before you create the power.

Here is a clip I made a while ago to illustrate the direction of the hip turn, but it also shows exactly what action is done is the swing AFTER the foot comes down.
http://media.putfile.com/hipturn

One more question. Why would the foot landing at contact be perfection? What advatnage what that create? More power? Better balance? Just asking.

Question from an old Italian---is the term "batmanship" a new PC term?

I can just see coaches telling their kids "Show me some batmanship in this at bat"


I know my players would look at me like I was NUTTTTS

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
The important factors are the explosive start and using gravity and other natural forces to aid in the swing.

You see the bat in motion before foot plant many times from the better hitters. This is not using front foot plant and catapult action.

This is so laughably inaccurate its pathetic. And again with your physics quackery.

Gravity is a constant force of 32 ft/sec acceleration that EVERY batter holding the bat above the shoulders gets. And that is only if you plan on swinging the bat straight down. In the 4/30s of a second timeframe in a MLB swing, that is worth a whopping 3 mph increase MAX if you swing straight down. Since the bat only goes down in the first 2/30ths of a second you're really getting 1 mph acceleration.

If a batter has a bat in motion prior to foot plant it is going to be a COUNTERROTATION or a tip and rip as some call it.

In any case, many coaches do tend to overemphasize the initial bat motion or acceleration. Bat speed at contact is most important. Quincy obviously overemphasized the effect of gravity for initial bat acceleration. Assuming the bat is level at contact, gravity has no effect on bat speed at that point. The question is whether the initial 1 mph acceleration he gained affects bat speed at contact.

I would say for the good MLB player the answer is no. Batters can do all sorts of things to preaccelerate a bat, such as Quincy's swing before contact. But good MLB batters explode in the last 2/30ths of a second prior to contact (again see Chris O'Leary's frame by frame of Albert Pujols' arms and wrists.) In other words, there isn't a need to make early movements in the first 2/30ths of a second and the energy probably winds up wasted. Remember, Pujols used 4/30ths of a second to get his hips up to 30 mph, that last 2/30ths added the remaining 60 mph.

Tip and rip is good for slower batters. But it also means they committed earlier to a swing than others. For them, a better batting average would probably be gained from committing as late as possible but they would sacrifice power and vice versa.

PG,

Where in the intiial post does it mention the front foot?

When I made the comment, it was to you, not a young child. A young child would benefit most by learning how to 'let the bat do the work', but they would first have to not learn the techniques of brute force.

I have seen players get fooled and swat at pitches to try to protect the plate. They make contact and the ball goes over the fence. Is that good mechanics or an accidental perfect swing?

I saw Keith Hernandez do this at Shea Stadium. He trotted around the bases showing his wonder by raising his hands in an "I don't know' gesture.

I have seen players lose their grip and go through the swing with one hand, hitting home runs. How is that explained except with a perfect swing and perfect contact?

The over-riding point in the discussion is that I claim that the bat does the work, and others claim that all power is derived by the batter's physical attributes.

In reality, with this swing and perfect contact, a one legged person can hit a home run. A one armed person can hit a home run. A batter fooled by the pitch and sitting back on his heels can hit a home run.

It truly amazes me how people can accept the hard to understand and/or believe many facets of nature and physics, yet question basic leverage and centripital accelleration.

Imagine that the same scrutiny were used when turning on a television. Pictures and sound are transmitted 'live' and on 'tape' with no wires. Since the concept is beyond the average person's ability to comprehend, they ignore their ignorance and accept it as reality.

When a lever is used in its many forms in our lives, we accept the reality of the incredible force created without understanding.

There is so much in our existence that is beyond human comprehension yet is accepted unquestioned, but a new application is always questioned and called impossible that applies the same simple rules of physics.

The basic nature of humanity is not to be humble until humiliated. Humility on the other hand is what allows new thought and experimentation.

quote:

Where in the intiial post does it mention the front foot?

Quincy, It was here in your second post that you mentioned the front foot... I had not entered the discussion until that point.

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All three at once in starting the swing to gain the greatest bat speed.

You seem to be referring to the wrists breaking when you say 'hands', otherwise your swing will be too slow.

Idealy contact would be made as the front foot lands.

I'm really not picking, it's just hard to understand why you believe that last sentence.

BTW, I don't understand your last post either. I can appreciate new ideas without being first humiliated. And being humble is easy too, please just give it a try!

BTW... I like people who are stubborn and never give up!

My mistake. I apologize for the misstatement.

Humility is a life-long aspiration. When we think we have attained it most, we have attained it least.

That was and is a general statement, not a personal comment. In my view, anyone who gives so much time in the service of others is the picture of humility. I respect you greatly for that.

Concerning the last statement in that item,

"Idealy contact would be made as the front foot lands."

The fact remains that it is true on paper and in practice.

My proposal is that force is being generated by the stride or weight shift as one factor. Foot touch is the end of the force generated and it would diminish from that point on.

Some have mentioned that they have balance issues with the idea. I would imagine that trying something new often takes a while and at least a few tries if you are not suited to it naturally.

I am not saying that this is the end all, be all of batting styles. I'm offerring it as something that works better for me and those who have been willing to try it than other batting styles.

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Quincy

quote:

I am not saying that this is the end all, be all of batting styles. I'm offerring it as something that works better for me and those who have been willing to try it than other batting styles.

Could you post a clip of yourself using this style.

Thank you.

quote:

In any case, many coaches do tend to overemphasize the initial bat motion or acceleration

In other words, there isn't a need to make early movements in the first 2/30ths of a second and the energy probably winds up wasted. Remember, Pujols used 4/30ths of a second to get his hips up to 30 mph, that last 2/30ths added the remaining 60 mph.

Zero to sixty with just hip turn?

Not even with 'string theory'

Bat speed is generated with a combination of events in conjunction with centripital force.

How much forward momentum is generated by the front leg while pitching?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm8oHYRS6hA

Just wondering.

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What the heck does pitching have to do with hitting?

If that is what you want a hitter to do,that would definately be lunging.

All this lunging.

Don't some athletic folks have balance?

Next you'll be claiming that I'm saying that he's on one foot.

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When you push off your back foot,momentum carries you forward,I don't know about you but that is lunging.That is what a pitcher does.


The mechanincs used to pitch are not the same as the mechanics used to hit.

You don't push off your back leg in pitching or hitting.

You will notice in hitting and pitching the back leg is slightly colapsed so how can you push.
There are some similarities in pitching and hitting.

Wow, no back leg in pitching or hitting?

That would be a sight.

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Take a look at your clips. How can you push off when you are extending the bat out on follow through.

How would you stride or shift weight without the back leg or gain momentum pushing off the rubber in pitching??

I must be thinking of an entirely different game.

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The 1st thing I learned was that the pitcher doesn't push off.My son actually sets his foot down in front of the rubber and the back leg lifts as he finishes his follow through. The back leg creates support and if it was used to push it would straighten up as it pushed. In both pitching and hitting the power comes from the hips rotating and then stopping to create a fulcrum around which the upper body and arm rotates. The finish is quite different in pitching as your body shifts over the front leg and thrust forward lifting the back leg to a high leg kick.
If you look at your clips the weight is back and the back leg is slightly collapsed. This is after the bat has cleared the ball and in a collapsed position you have no leverage with that leg but it supports the body as it unloads.

By that time the back leg has done its job

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