Mic,
You have a vision in your head of a swing by someone standing on one foot. Until you shake that picture, you have no chance of understanding what I'm saying.
Papa,
While I don't know Larry Walker's social history, I can't see his heightened senses or faster reaction time as a disorder.
.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
Mic,
You have a vision in your head of a swing by someone standing on one foot. Until you shake that picture, you have no chance of understanding what I'm saying.
Papa,
While I don't know Larry Walker's social history, I can't see his heightened senses or faster reaction time as a disorder.
.
If you don't have foot plant until contact, you are swinging off of one foot. Nothing to leverage against. It's like shooting a rubberband with one finger or bringing your fingers together before you shoot or even while you shoot. Again, if you are trying to say foot plant at go, I totally agree.
Try thinking of it as exploding into the swing
.
.
I don't think of ADD as a disorder, even though the medical community calls it attention deficit disorder. In fact, it is the opposite in pressure situations. The ADD person seems to be able to focus when others are having mulitple thoughts occur at once.
I have never seen the study, just heard there was one from a college coach I know. I may try to google to see if I can verify.
Aaron did talk about hitting as being able to execute. It begs the question what he was executing.
I have never seen the study, just heard there was one from a college coach I know. I may try to google to see if I can verify.
Aaron did talk about hitting as being able to execute. It begs the question what he was executing.
It never ceases to amaze me how uninformed guys using fancy terms and language they don't understand will always f'up basic concepts of physics.
Since you like to talk about exploding I find it ironic you would invoke centripetal force which has absolutely nothing to do with exploding and least of which a baseball swing. That is an INWARD force, something like gravity that holds the moon in orbit. Next time, at least go look up wikipedia before you pull stuff out of your ....
Explosions however do benefit from "leverage" just like a batter benefits from having a front foot FIRMLY planted PRIOR to contract. A bomb exploding in air exerts equal force to all sides. However that same bomb exploding against a solid object will have more force to the side away from the object. That's how guns and bullets work, why helicopters have tail rotors and why batters firmly plant their front foot long before contact.
And unlike the hocus pocus physics you cite, centriFUGAL force and the law of conservation of angular momentum are relevant terms to a batter's swing, especially rotationally oriented ones. Maximizing bat speed means maximizing rotational force. And that requires a defined axis of rotation which is the bottom of the front leg and through the spine. If the front leg is in motion while the bat is moving your bat speed will be impacted negatively.
BTW I am pretty certain that ARod would LOSE 100 ft of distance if he were to follow your instructions.
But you gotta luv the snake oil salesmen who come here with their only defense being try it. LOL!
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
Try thinking of it as exploding into the swing.
Since you like to talk about exploding I find it ironic you would invoke centripetal force which has absolutely nothing to do with exploding and least of which a baseball swing. That is an INWARD force, something like gravity that holds the moon in orbit. Next time, at least go look up wikipedia before you pull stuff out of your ....
Explosions however do benefit from "leverage" just like a batter benefits from having a front foot FIRMLY planted PRIOR to contract. A bomb exploding in air exerts equal force to all sides. However that same bomb exploding against a solid object will have more force to the side away from the object. That's how guns and bullets work, why helicopters have tail rotors and why batters firmly plant their front foot long before contact.
And unlike the hocus pocus physics you cite, centriFUGAL force and the law of conservation of angular momentum are relevant terms to a batter's swing, especially rotationally oriented ones. Maximizing bat speed means maximizing rotational force. And that requires a defined axis of rotation which is the bottom of the front leg and through the spine. If the front leg is in motion while the bat is moving your bat speed will be impacted negatively.
BTW I am pretty certain that ARod would LOSE 100 ft of distance if he were to follow your instructions.
But you gotta luv the snake oil salesmen who come here with their only defense being try it. LOL!
Found this on SI. Also found an article where Bonds was going to ask for an exemption for ADD, but then decided not to.
Of all the medical maladies associated with sports, few mesh more perfectly than attention-deficit disorder and baseball. ADD is a syndrome that was once known as "minimal brain dysfunction"; our national pastime is often played by people who exhibit minimal brain function.
The first time baseball focused -- really focused -- on ADD was in 1992. In June of that year, Steve Howe, the part-time New York Yankees pitcher and full-time cocaine fiend, was suspended for the seventh time for drug-related violations and became the first player to be banned from baseball for life because of substance abuse. Five months later an arbitrator overturned the ban, saying that Howe's coke addiction was at least partly due to ADD.
In 1996 the Cleveland Indians had scatty outfielder Manny Ramirez tested for ADD. He attended classes for it at the Cleveland Clinic but stopped going. Five years later Ramirez was asked if the Tribe had ever had him checked for the disease. ''If they did," he said without the slightest trace of irony, "I don't remember it.''
Actually, there is no definitive test for ADD. Patients are diagnosed on the basis of their behavior and questionnaires that ask if they display symptoms, including impatience, inattentiveness and impulsiveness. Among the signs: failure to follow through on things, difficulty concentrating, getting sidetracked easily and acting before thinking.
Depending on how it's defined -- and it tends to be defined very loosely -- ADD occurs in three to 10 percent of children. More and more of them are being medicated with amphetamine-based stimulants. The most popular drug, Ritalin, has been given to children as young as 15 months. In some kindergartens, more than a third of the students are on medication for ADD.
To comfort tykes -- or, more accurately, their parents -- one attention deficit disorder Web site has posted a "famous people with ADD" list. The roster features Julius Caesar, Galileo and Beethoven.
That list may soon bulge with baseball stars, too. This season, for the first time, big leaguers will be tested for amphetamines, which have long been a popular part of the game's underground culture. The new policy makes an exception in cases of diagnosed ADD, which suggests that scores of players will suddenly realize they have the disorder and find physicians who agree.
Already, one prominent doctor has voiced concern that the Steroid Era will be followed by the ADD Era. Last year Dr. Elliot Pellman, baseball's medical adviser, said team trainers were alarmed about an increase in players saying they had the condition. Forget about kids using professional ballplayers as role models: Pro ballplayers have started to model themselves after kids.
The first volunteer of 2006 could be the Yankees' Jason Giambi. Giambi has a problem with concentration, a rather glaring one. He's a very sharp hitter (.312 lifetime) when he plays first base and a very dull one (.252) as a designated hitter. In the 238 at-bats he had as a first baseman last season, he batted .319, smacked 24 home runs and drove in 65 runs. In 175 at-bats as a DH, though, he hit .211, with eight homers and 22 RBIs.
"When I DH, my numbers are terrible," Giambi has said. "I don't know what it is. When I play first base -- maybe it's ADD -- it gives me something to do."
On the baseball diamond, pretty much any scatterbrained or boneheaded behavior -- from getting picked off first base to missing the cutoff man -- can be construed as a symptom of ADD. Perhaps the game's future historians may value the acronym as much as ERA and RBI.
Revisionists may also conclude that ADD played a critical role in the momentous decisions of team owners. Was a deficient attention span -- and not No, No Nannette -- to blame for Harry Frazee's impulsive trade of Babe Ruth to the Yanks? Was George Bush uninformed or merely undiagnosed when he unloaded Sammy Sosa?
Of all the medical maladies associated with sports, few mesh more perfectly than attention-deficit disorder and baseball. ADD is a syndrome that was once known as "minimal brain dysfunction"; our national pastime is often played by people who exhibit minimal brain function.
The first time baseball focused -- really focused -- on ADD was in 1992. In June of that year, Steve Howe, the part-time New York Yankees pitcher and full-time cocaine fiend, was suspended for the seventh time for drug-related violations and became the first player to be banned from baseball for life because of substance abuse. Five months later an arbitrator overturned the ban, saying that Howe's coke addiction was at least partly due to ADD.
In 1996 the Cleveland Indians had scatty outfielder Manny Ramirez tested for ADD. He attended classes for it at the Cleveland Clinic but stopped going. Five years later Ramirez was asked if the Tribe had ever had him checked for the disease. ''If they did," he said without the slightest trace of irony, "I don't remember it.''
Actually, there is no definitive test for ADD. Patients are diagnosed on the basis of their behavior and questionnaires that ask if they display symptoms, including impatience, inattentiveness and impulsiveness. Among the signs: failure to follow through on things, difficulty concentrating, getting sidetracked easily and acting before thinking.
Depending on how it's defined -- and it tends to be defined very loosely -- ADD occurs in three to 10 percent of children. More and more of them are being medicated with amphetamine-based stimulants. The most popular drug, Ritalin, has been given to children as young as 15 months. In some kindergartens, more than a third of the students are on medication for ADD.
To comfort tykes -- or, more accurately, their parents -- one attention deficit disorder Web site has posted a "famous people with ADD" list. The roster features Julius Caesar, Galileo and Beethoven.
That list may soon bulge with baseball stars, too. This season, for the first time, big leaguers will be tested for amphetamines, which have long been a popular part of the game's underground culture. The new policy makes an exception in cases of diagnosed ADD, which suggests that scores of players will suddenly realize they have the disorder and find physicians who agree.
Already, one prominent doctor has voiced concern that the Steroid Era will be followed by the ADD Era. Last year Dr. Elliot Pellman, baseball's medical adviser, said team trainers were alarmed about an increase in players saying they had the condition. Forget about kids using professional ballplayers as role models: Pro ballplayers have started to model themselves after kids.
The first volunteer of 2006 could be the Yankees' Jason Giambi. Giambi has a problem with concentration, a rather glaring one. He's a very sharp hitter (.312 lifetime) when he plays first base and a very dull one (.252) as a designated hitter. In the 238 at-bats he had as a first baseman last season, he batted .319, smacked 24 home runs and drove in 65 runs. In 175 at-bats as a DH, though, he hit .211, with eight homers and 22 RBIs.
"When I DH, my numbers are terrible," Giambi has said. "I don't know what it is. When I play first base -- maybe it's ADD -- it gives me something to do."
On the baseball diamond, pretty much any scatterbrained or boneheaded behavior -- from getting picked off first base to missing the cutoff man -- can be construed as a symptom of ADD. Perhaps the game's future historians may value the acronym as much as ERA and RBI.
Revisionists may also conclude that ADD played a critical role in the momentous decisions of team owners. Was a deficient attention span -- and not No, No Nannette -- to blame for Harry Frazee's impulsive trade of Babe Ruth to the Yanks? Was George Bush uninformed or merely undiagnosed when he unloaded Sammy Sosa?
Can I ask a stupid question without really meaning to and without taking sides in this argument?
Could a one legged man have success hitting a baseball in the method prescribed in the original post? In other words, if he made contact with the ball at the precise moment when his foot would have touched down if he had two legs, would he be successful? Obviously, he’d fall on his face after he made contact, but that’s not part of the equation. I’m talking strictly about his ability to hit the ball and hit it with power.
Again, I'm not taking sides, I'm just asking a question. Just think, a one-legged man in a baseball hitting contest!
Could a one legged man have success hitting a baseball in the method prescribed in the original post? In other words, if he made contact with the ball at the precise moment when his foot would have touched down if he had two legs, would he be successful? Obviously, he’d fall on his face after he made contact, but that’s not part of the equation. I’m talking strictly about his ability to hit the ball and hit it with power.
Again, I'm not taking sides, I'm just asking a question. Just think, a one-legged man in a baseball hitting contest!
quote:And unlike the hocus pocus physics you cite, centriFUGAL force and the law of conservation of angular momentum are relevant terms to a batter's swing, especially rotationally oriented ones. Maximizing bat speed means maximizing rotational force. And that requires a defined axis of rotation which is the bottom of the front leg and through the spine. If the front leg is in motion while the bat is moving your bat speed will be impacted negatively.
BTW I am pretty certain that ARod would LOSE 100 ft of distance if he were to follow your instructions.
Got to agree.
Love the term "exploding hips".
quote:Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
Can I ask a stupid question without really meaning to and without taking sides in this argument?
Could a one legged man have success hitting a baseball in the method prescribed in the original post? In other words, if he made contact with the ball at the precise moment when his foot would have touched down if he had two legs, would he be successful? Obviously, he’d fall on his face after he made contact, but that’s not part of the equation. I’m talking strictly about his ability to hit the ball and hit it with power.
Again, I'm not taking sides, I'm just asking a question.
Take a bat and tie it with a rope to a spinning machine. Spool it up to 80 mph. Throw a ball and the bat will hit it will for X distance.
Now take the same bat and fix it to the spinning machine with a rigid steel bar. Spool it up to the same speed. Guess which setup will hit the ball farther?
So do you want the front foot to be like a rope or a steel bar?
Z,
your lack of understanding of the differences between centripetal force and centrifugal force was all I needed to see to discount your comments.
I do give you credit for realizing the implosion that would actually be involved in the muscle contraction. I was hoping that Mic would have grasped that but decided that 'explosion' would better communicate the force generated.
your lack of understanding of the differences between centripetal force and centrifugal force was all I needed to see to discount your comments.
I do give you credit for realizing the implosion that would actually be involved in the muscle contraction. I was hoping that Mic would have grasped that but decided that 'explosion' would better communicate the force generated.
Z-Dad,
A couple years ago, there was a long discussion about hand strength. Wished you would have been here for that.
There was also a discussion awhile back about vision. Some actually didn't think it was very important.
This is just another discussion I don't understand.
Quincy, You keep trying to get people to understand what you are saying. How does one shake that picture when you have said ideal contact is made when the stride foot touches. That requires the swing getting to contact point before the stride foot touches. You've also said that there is a wrist break at this same point (or something like that) I think you said it should happen over the plate.
Do you believe palm up palm down is correct? If so how do you break the wrists at contact without rolling over?
The most confusing thing to me is the title you gave this topic... "Basic Batmanship"
If this were so "basic" why don't more people understand what it is you're trying to say?
After 9 pages, I'm still not absolutely sure what it is you are trying to tell us. I'm only sure that whatever it is... It's far from basic!
And I think everyone understands completely what you are trying to say... They just don't agree with it! Yet you keep linking to video that actually disproves what you are saying.
Sorry, I just don't get it!
A couple years ago, there was a long discussion about hand strength. Wished you would have been here for that.
There was also a discussion awhile back about vision. Some actually didn't think it was very important.
This is just another discussion I don't understand.
quote:You have a vision in your head of a swing by someone standing on one foot. Until you shake that picture, you have no chance of understanding what I'm saying.
Quincy, You keep trying to get people to understand what you are saying. How does one shake that picture when you have said ideal contact is made when the stride foot touches. That requires the swing getting to contact point before the stride foot touches. You've also said that there is a wrist break at this same point (or something like that) I think you said it should happen over the plate.
Do you believe palm up palm down is correct? If so how do you break the wrists at contact without rolling over?
The most confusing thing to me is the title you gave this topic... "Basic Batmanship"
If this were so "basic" why don't more people understand what it is you're trying to say?
After 9 pages, I'm still not absolutely sure what it is you are trying to tell us. I'm only sure that whatever it is... It's far from basic!
And I think everyone understands completely what you are trying to say... They just don't agree with it! Yet you keep linking to video that actually disproves what you are saying.
Sorry, I just don't get it!
Quincy, give it up. The harder you try and sound like you know something the more obvious it is you know nothing. Go look up centripetal force on wikipedia before you embarrass yourself further. In fact, there is even a special section just for you there, scroll down to "Common Misunderstandings" ROFL!
It should be obvious that centripetal force (inward attraction) isn't like other forces. For one it isn't energy and cannot be transferred to a bat or a ball. And no, you can't use your muscle analogy, it doesn't work.
PGStaff, I think I would have liked to have been on that hand strength discussion. I remember Adair mentioned he thought the amount of energy provided by the hands was minimal due to size of the hand muscles. But as I learned more about rotational hitting I've changed my mind about that.
I think because the hands/wrists can flex quickly along a large radius vs. other joints, I think they can provide a disproportionately large amount of torque/bat speed for the muscle size. So while Adair might be right that increasing hand muscle size won't do much, it doesn't mean the hands aren't critical to adding bat speed.
It should be obvious that centripetal force (inward attraction) isn't like other forces. For one it isn't energy and cannot be transferred to a bat or a ball. And no, you can't use your muscle analogy, it doesn't work.
PGStaff, I think I would have liked to have been on that hand strength discussion. I remember Adair mentioned he thought the amount of energy provided by the hands was minimal due to size of the hand muscles. But as I learned more about rotational hitting I've changed my mind about that.
I think because the hands/wrists can flex quickly along a large radius vs. other joints, I think they can provide a disproportionately large amount of torque/bat speed for the muscle size. So while Adair might be right that increasing hand muscle size won't do much, it doesn't mean the hands aren't critical to adding bat speed.
PG
I am not sure that Quincy gets it either---it is just cyberspace babble---he also conveniently sidestepped the question when asked who uses his "method"
I am not sure that Quincy gets it either---it is just cyberspace babble---he also conveniently sidestepped the question when asked who uses his "method"
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
This is just another discussion I don't understand.quote:You have a vision in your head of a swing by someone standing on one foot. Until you shake that picture, you have no chance of understanding what I'm saying.
ideal contact is made when the stride foot touches.
That requires the swing getting to contact point before the stride foot touches.
You've also said that there is a wrist break at this same point (or something like that) I think you said it should happen over the plate.
Do you believe palm up palm down is correct? If so how do you break the wrists at contact without rolling over?
The most confusing thing to me is the title you gave this topic... "Basic Batmanship"
If this were so "basic" why don't more people understand what it is you're trying to say?
Sorry, I just don't get it!
If this is what you take away from the post I can understand your lack of understanding.
If ideal contact takes place at foot touch, are not both feet on the ground?
Wrist break is the term I use to describe what Chameleon calls uncocking the wrists. Very accepted practice. The wrists are uncocked before contact.
Batsmanship would be the art of batting as compared to swinging a bat. Employing all possible advantages to assist in the swing is simple enough, but complex only to those who refuse to see out of hand.
I may have made it so simple that people are tending to complicate what I have said by injecting their own views.
There is a certain element of humility in this style because one has to accept that once bat speed is produced the great majority of energy produced in the swing is done so by natural forces.
At no time did I feel the need to include the gravitational effect on the bat in the swing to overly complicate my description.I simply said 'Trust your hands'
Just as it is easier at times to just say ' Because that is how it is', I found the converse here in having to explain the resultant effects of the down swing. Oh I forgot where I am, that means that there is an almost equal and opposite effect on the upswing minus the degradation caused by gravity.
If a person doesn't understand that there are natural forces all around us that we can harness to our advantage even in sport, I shouldn't expect that they undestand.
BUT, I stretched out believing that there are some out there who may undestand and give it a try.
mea culpa
BTW folks, I found a way to measure the speed provided by the hips. From the Chris O'Leary link we can see Albert Pujols' body turn 1/4 of a circle in 4 frames or 4/30's of a second. (Video cameras conveniently all capture their frames at 1/30 of a second each).
If you assume the sweet spot of the bat is about 4.5 ft from his spine then we know that in 1/4 of a circle in 4/30's of a second that the bat travels about 7.1 ft. That translates to an average of 20 miles per hour from just the hips. And the max speed generated from the hips must be higher than 20 mph because we know the bat started at rest and had to accelerate to above 20 mph. How much higher is hard to tell (my guess is 25-30 mph) but it's pretty impressive speed from just the hips.
If you assume the sweet spot of the bat is about 4.5 ft from his spine then we know that in 1/4 of a circle in 4/30's of a second that the bat travels about 7.1 ft. That translates to an average of 20 miles per hour from just the hips. And the max speed generated from the hips must be higher than 20 mph because we know the bat started at rest and had to accelerate to above 20 mph. How much higher is hard to tell (my guess is 25-30 mph) but it's pretty impressive speed from just the hips.
If Pujols swings with an exit speed of in excess of 90 mph and his hips are rotating causing the barrel to go 20 mph or even 30 mph, then where is the rest of his velocity coming from?
Answer: Wrists
Not rolling but exploding into the hitting area. The barrel is close to the shoulders when initiated. The hands are close to the body at initiation. The barrel travels away from the body (but not the knob) and contact is made with palm up and palm down contact. The rotational force started with the hips is translated into (1) getting the hands (or wrists, whatever you want to stress) in a position to cause the rotation of the barrel into the hitting area, (2) the rotation of the barrel by the hands. This last mili-second rip is the key to power.
In other words, the hands and wrists are not along for the ride. The hands are at a 45 degree or so angle to the ground at initiation but become palm up and palm down and parallel to the ground at contact. This doesn't just happen from lower body action. Most of the angular bat velocity is from this event, not lower body rotation. That clip shows it and common sense tells you this. If the MLB hitter is swinging at 90 mph and you cannot cause hip turn at 30 mph, the angular velocity is coming from the somewhere above the waist.
Answer: Wrists
Not rolling but exploding into the hitting area. The barrel is close to the shoulders when initiated. The hands are close to the body at initiation. The barrel travels away from the body (but not the knob) and contact is made with palm up and palm down contact. The rotational force started with the hips is translated into (1) getting the hands (or wrists, whatever you want to stress) in a position to cause the rotation of the barrel into the hitting area, (2) the rotation of the barrel by the hands. This last mili-second rip is the key to power.
In other words, the hands and wrists are not along for the ride. The hands are at a 45 degree or so angle to the ground at initiation but become palm up and palm down and parallel to the ground at contact. This doesn't just happen from lower body action. Most of the angular bat velocity is from this event, not lower body rotation. That clip shows it and common sense tells you this. If the MLB hitter is swinging at 90 mph and you cannot cause hip turn at 30 mph, the angular velocity is coming from the somewhere above the waist.
quote:If ideal contact takes place at foot touch, are not both feet on the ground?
Yes, but that is not what we are talking about. It's more about the bat getting to this point at the same time the foot touches. And wouldn't you want a more stable and balanced position to make contact than the instant your front foot touches?
This requires more than getting your swing started, it requires completing your swing or at least getting it to contact point with your stride.
This is contrary to what "every" hitting coach I've ever known teaches. Therefore, I do believe that you have invented this "basic" information.
Also, I can't keep up with all the physics involved. That's just not keeping things very "basic" to me.
I'm more interested in how to best use the body efficiently to allow for the most success. Others can discuss the physics involved, I'm not educated enough to understand all the words. But I do enjoy reading what more educated people have to say so long as they understand how things relate to the human body and athleticism rather than machinery.
Way back on page 5 of this thread "Chameleon" gave a good discription of his beliefs. I can certainly respect that. However, other than simply getting the swing started I see no comparison to what Quincy is saying.
And "Chameleon asked a question I forgot to answer, I will answer it now.
quote:P.S. PGStaff......have your sons been taught to put their stride foot down first when pitching and then drop the heel and rotate? I think not. There is a definite rotation into footplant. The hitting move is identical........and the upper body's control over it.....over the release of it....at precisely the right moment....is how the great hitters deal with all the different pitch speeds..............
I agree with you with a few minor exceptions. Yes, I did teach them to stay closed as long as possible, but the comparison is not the same because a pitcher controls the timing of what he does and a hitter has to adjust to the pitcher. So there are some differences.
Most all pitchers will rotate into landing, but the comparison to Quincy's hitting plan would be this... At the instant a pitchers stride foot touches down, the hips would be already squared to the plate and the ball would be at release point. While hitting and throwing are two different things the body has to get into a good position to do either for maximum results.
I didn't invent the natural forces. Who did is another area of discussion completely.
Initially, I spoke in the simplest form I could think of. Refer back to the original post in its entirety without a preconcieved notion of what happens in the swing.
The physics came in an attempt to explain the simplicity of natural forces which are actually so hard to explain and grasp at times.
Like so many natural forces, we can know what they do, but not exactly how they work.
Initially, I spoke in the simplest form I could think of. Refer back to the original post in its entirety without a preconcieved notion of what happens in the swing.
The physics came in an attempt to explain the simplicity of natural forces which are actually so hard to explain and grasp at times.
Like so many natural forces, we can know what they do, but not exactly how they work.
Quincy,
I believe any disagreement is not about those natural forces, but how they are best implemented.
I believe any disagreement is not about those natural forces, but how they are best implemented.
Quincy,
Do the hips need to turn with any force in order to get the bat into position to make solid contact?
Yes or No.
If yes, then can you please describe how you can turn with any force standing on one foot (I tried it, please do the same). Let me know how well your hips work prior to contact with the stride foot still suspended.
Do the hips need to turn with any force in order to get the bat into position to make solid contact?
Yes or No.
If yes, then can you please describe how you can turn with any force standing on one foot (I tried it, please do the same). Let me know how well your hips work prior to contact with the stride foot still suspended.
I don't really see disagreement but rather a lack of perception.
If you agree with the process with the exception of the final toe touch, it would be my lack of ability to properly explain it to you.
I can only refer to toe touch or the foot touch as the end of the stride and one element of force.
I lack the language skills to simplfy it further.
If you agree with the process with the exception of the final toe touch, it would be my lack of ability to properly explain it to you.
I can only refer to toe touch or the foot touch as the end of the stride and one element of force.
I lack the language skills to simplfy it further.
quote:Originally posted by baseballpapa:
Found this on SI. Also found an article where Bonds was going to ask for an exemption for ADD, but then decided not to.
Of all the medical maladies associated with sports, few mesh more perfectly than attention-deficit disorder and baseball. ADD is a syndrome that was once known as "minimal brain dysfunction"; our national pastime is often played by people who exhibit minimal brain function.
The first time baseball focused -- really focused -- on ADD was in 1992. In June of that year, Steve Howe, the part-time New York Yankees pitcher and full-time cocaine fiend, was suspended for the seventh time for drug-related violations and became the first player to be banned from baseball for life because of substance abuse. Five months later an arbitrator overturned the ban, saying that Howe's coke addiction was at least partly due to ADD.
In 1996 the Cleveland Indians had scatty outfielder Manny Ramirez tested for ADD. He attended classes for it at the Cleveland Clinic but stopped going. Five years later Ramirez was asked if the Tribe had ever had him checked for the disease. ''If they did," he said without the slightest trace of irony, "I don't remember it.''
Actually, there is no definitive test for ADD. Patients are diagnosed on the basis of their behavior and questionnaires that ask if they display symptoms, including impatience, inattentiveness and impulsiveness. Among the signs: failure to follow through on things, difficulty concentrating, getting sidetracked easily and acting before thinking.
Depending on how it's defined -- and it tends to be defined very loosely -- ADD occurs in three to 10 percent of children. More and more of them are being medicated with amphetamine-based stimulants. The most popular drug, Ritalin, has been given to children as young as 15 months. In some kindergartens, more than a third of the students are on medication for ADD.
To comfort tykes -- or, more accurately, their parents -- one attention deficit disorder Web site has posted a "famous people with ADD" list. The roster features Julius Caesar, Galileo and Beethoven.
That list may soon bulge with baseball stars, too. This season, for the first time, big leaguers will be tested for amphetamines, which have long been a popular part of the game's underground culture. The new policy makes an exception in cases of diagnosed ADD, which suggests that scores of players will suddenly realize they have the disorder and find physicians who agree.
Already, one prominent doctor has voiced concern that the Steroid Era will be followed by the ADD Era. Last year Dr. Elliot Pellman, baseball's medical adviser, said team trainers were alarmed about an increase in players saying they had the condition. Forget about kids using professional ballplayers as role models: Pro ballplayers have started to model themselves after kids.
The first volunteer of 2006 could be the Yankees' Jason Giambi. Giambi has a problem with concentration, a rather glaring one. He's a very sharp hitter (.312 lifetime) when he plays first base and a very dull one (.252) as a designated hitter. In the 238 at-bats he had as a first baseman last season, he batted .319, smacked 24 home runs and drove in 65 runs. In 175 at-bats as a DH, though, he hit .211, with eight homers and 22 RBIs.
"When I DH, my numbers are terrible," Giambi has said. "I don't know what it is. When I play first base -- maybe it's ADD -- it gives me something to do."
On the baseball diamond, pretty much any scatterbrained or boneheaded behavior -- from getting picked off first base to missing the cutoff man -- can be construed as a symptom of ADD. Perhaps the game's future historians may value the acronym as much as ERA and RBI.
Revisionists may also conclude that ADD played a critical role in the momentous decisions of team owners. Was a deficient attention span -- and not No, No Nannette -- to blame for Harry Frazee's impulsive trade of Babe Ruth to the Yanks? Was George Bush uninformed or merely undiagnosed when he unloaded Sammy Sosa?
Yes Sir, I read that article. I think it called the exemptions a TUE. I'm wondering if that is what people call being "in the zone." I can remember playing in my younger years where I could only see the pitcher when I came to bat and then only seeing the ball at release and everything else being a blurr. The ball looked very clear and bigger than normal. It was all very wierd and never could explain it to people. When ever I tried, they thought I was nuts! I know I always played and hit better in close games. After reading the symptoms of the disorder, I'm sure I have it and probably always did. I know my 5th grade teacher tied me in my desk one time. LOL
Teacher asked,"Don't you know anything?"
Yogi Berra replied, "I don't even suspect anything."
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Yogi Berra replied, "I don't even suspect anything."
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quote:Originally posted by baseballpapa:
If Pujols swings with an exit speed of in excess of 90 mph and his hips are rotating causing the barrel to go 20 mph or even 30 mph, then where is the rest of his velocity coming from?
Answer: Wrists
Not rolling but exploding into the hitting area. The barrel is close to the shoulders when initiated. The hands are close to the body at initiation. The barrel travels away from the body (but not the knob) and contact is made with palm up and palm down contact. The rotational force started with the hips is translated into (1) getting the hands (or wrists, whatever you want to stress) in a position to cause the rotation of the barrel into the hitting area, (2) the rotation of the barrel by the hands. This last mili-second rip is the key to power.
In other words, the hands and wrists are not along for the ride. The hands are at a 45 degree or so angle to the ground at initiation but become palm up and palm down and parallel to the ground at contact. This doesn't just happen from lower body action. Most of the angular bat velocity is from this event, not lower body rotation. That clip shows it and common sense tells you this. If the MLB hitter is swinging at 90 mph and you cannot cause hip turn at 30 mph, the angular velocity is coming from the somewhere above the waist.
Papa,
Great post! There is a reason why great hitters have big forearms and you nailed it! The 30mph hip turn though is just winding the rubberband. That momentum is pretty much stopped when the rubberband or CORE unwinds and that is where the majority of the batspeed is generated. The golf swing analogy or at least Bobby Jones' analysis of it does apply here. Bobby Jones said about the golf swing that you can only generate a swing equal to what the hands, arms and wrists can bear. If a person had weak forearms and grip, but tremendous torque from their core they could never get to the optimal contact position, everything would be hit to the opposite field and most of the time weakly. There was a great reason why Ted Williams squeezed a rubber ball constantly. I read in the strength and conditioning thread that MLB scouts test for grip strength, now we know why.
quote:Originally posted by Z-Dad:
Take a bat and tie it with a rope to a spinning machine. Spool it up to 80 mph. Throw a ball and the bat will hit it will for X distance.
Now take the same bat and fix it to the spinning machine with a rigid steel bar. Spool it up to the same speed. Guess which setup will hit the ball farther?
So do you want the front foot to be like a rope or a steel bar?
Z-Dad,
Great analogy! The steel bar is the hands and wrists driving the bat through the ball and the string is the "hands along for the ride." Trying to swing with the front foot off the ground would be like trying to push that rope!
Wonderful idea that golf analogy.
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quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Good hitters, regardless of their age, do not think when hitting---they react
Same as washed up retired know nothings. They don't think before they post.
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Micmeister - all very true IMO.
When you actually play in a game - you quickly realize that the hands-wrists and forearms are vitally important. They need to be as strong as possible.
Real games involve real people - and all 3 body parts are actively involved in the swing. This is even more important as you begin to use wood bats.
In the laboratory - these 3 elements can be reduced to useless appendages - depending on the "whacked out theory ala mode".
3D animations wont do it.
Talking nonsense - with video support - wont do it.
Physics and cyber mumbo jumbo and wordsmithing wont do it.
I fear that many - if not most - of the cyber gurus we have to endure have simply - never played the game.
As Dylan once said - You dont need a weatherman to tell you which way the wind is blowing.
Its,
You nailed it too! All three have to work together. After the core fires anything that helps move the bat to the target, adds to the batspeed like boosters on a rocket. Yes, even the fingers. Just like throwing a baseball.
Fantastic observations.
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I've heard those same things somewhere before but can't quite place where.
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I just reread them on the first page of this subject.
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quote:Originally posted by baseballpapa:
If Pujols swings with an exit speed of in excess of 90 mph and his hips are rotating causing the barrel to go 20 mph or even 30 mph, then where is the rest of his velocity coming from?
Answer: Wrists
Not rolling but exploding into the hitting area.
Well, just to add, it's not just wrists of course. The arms, and the shoulders also add up.
Shoulders probably get ignored a lot because the range of motion is quite small, i.e. just a few inches. But because the shoulders are so close to the axis of rotation and the fact they can also explode quickly will add a surprising amount of torque and thus energy to the sweet spot of the bat.
Arms will get more speed the longer they can stay compact and flexed (conservation of angular momentum). That also explains why batters who stay compact can turn faster on inside fastballs
Read this article and see the direct link between the foot plant and the shoulders,and hips for that matter.
http://chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Rethin...bertPujolsSwing.html
http://chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Rethin...bertPujolsSwing.html
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Good hitters, regardless of their age, do not think when hitting---they react
Same as washed up retired know nothings. They don't think before they post.
It would appear this is all that Chameleon/Rshard/Teacherman etc..... has left. With the possible exception of a few new ids.
LOL
Actually...that was my It's imitation.
Quicy,
I agree with you with only a little varation. I have my hitters hit with their front foot up in the air before foot plant. They can't hit the ball but it saves them all that running around the bases. They like it because they get to spend more time in the dugout watching the people who really know how to hit.
Thanks
I agree with you with only a little varation. I have my hitters hit with their front foot up in the air before foot plant. They can't hit the ball but it saves them all that running around the bases. They like it because they get to spend more time in the dugout watching the people who really know how to hit.
Thanks
Mic,
Great job quoting Bobby Jones. I had seen that film years ago, fantastic breakdown of the golf swing. Keep up the good work and You will come to see the simplicity in so many things.
Its,
You have proven yourself to be one of the great detriments to dissemination of information concerning baseball that you either don't understand or disgaree with.
Once Mic quoted Bobby Jones, you hopped aboard the golf cart.
A little exercise in reverse (or Child) psychology was all it took to win you over.
smeisy,
You can sit next to Its until the next session of Child Psychology. Thanks
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Great job quoting Bobby Jones. I had seen that film years ago, fantastic breakdown of the golf swing. Keep up the good work and You will come to see the simplicity in so many things.
Its,
You have proven yourself to be one of the great detriments to dissemination of information concerning baseball that you either don't understand or disgaree with.
Once Mic quoted Bobby Jones, you hopped aboard the golf cart.
A little exercise in reverse (or Child) psychology was all it took to win you over.
smeisy,
You can sit next to Its until the next session of Child Psychology. Thanks
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Originally posted by Quincy:
No. I disagree.
Your process does not work, and no one that can hit thier weight uses it. I dont agree with your process.
The middle of the body CANT turn with any force until the lead foot gets down. This makes optimal contact way after the stride foot touches down.....Unless in your process, the middle of the body no longer leads the way.
I think your language skills are more then up to snuff....Its your hitting knowledge that is lacking. Your side stepping of questions is only rivaled by TPG. ......wait a second, has anyone ever seen TPG and Quincy in the same room at the same time?....hmmmmm
quote:I don't really see disagreement but rather a lack of perception.
No. I disagree.
quote:If you agree with the process with the exception of the final toe touch, it would be my lack of ability to properly explain it to you.
Your process does not work, and no one that can hit thier weight uses it. I dont agree with your process.
The middle of the body CANT turn with any force until the lead foot gets down. This makes optimal contact way after the stride foot touches down.....Unless in your process, the middle of the body no longer leads the way.
quote:I can only refer to toe touch or the foot touch as the end of the stride and one element of force.
quote:I lack the language skills to simplfy it further.
I think your language skills are more then up to snuff....Its your hitting knowledge that is lacking. Your side stepping of questions is only rivaled by TPG. ......wait a second, has anyone ever seen TPG and Quincy in the same room at the same time?....hmmmmm
Quincy
If your procedure is so "wonderful" and "so correct" why aren't you a hitting coach for MLB players and why arent MLB hitters hitting your way?
If your procedure is so "wonderful" and "so correct" why aren't you a hitting coach for MLB players and why arent MLB hitters hitting your way?
quote:Originally posted by deemax:quote:If you agree with the process with the exception of the final toe touch, it would be my lack of ability to properly explain it to you.
Your process does not work, and no one that can hit thier weight uses it. I dont agree with your process.
The middle of the body CANT turn with any force until the lead foot gets down. This makes optimal contact way after the stride foot touches down.....Unless in your process, the middle of the body no longer leads the way.
Although you have yet to contribute anything of substance to this discussion, I will indulge you for a moment.
Assuming a batting stance at load , I would ask you to go through the four steps that I describe.
1) Simultaneously (that means at the same time) use your wrist action to assist gravity in pulling the bat down into the swing, exercise what you feel is somr form of weight shift or stride that will allow you to maintain balance and begin to rotate your hips into the swing.
2)Relaxing now while maintaining string tension with the hands , wrists and forearms while the bat is under the influence of centripital accelleration allow your wrists to 'uncock' at dead center of the swing.
3) Having given your swing over to the powers of gravity and centriptal force allow the bat to make contact with the ball.
4) Follow through while gravity assists in slowing the swing.
Gravity and centripital force can generate far more force in the swing than the middle of the body leading the way with the catapult effect of front foot plant.
I won't tell you that I have hit shots to left center measured at 560 feet with this swing. There is no point.
What I will tell you is that using and trusting this swing will give you results comparable to a religious experience.
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TR,
I just chalk it up as one of life's great mysteries, similar to trying to understand why great hitters don't always make great hitting instructors.
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I just chalk it up as one of life's great mysteries, similar to trying to understand why great hitters don't always make great hitting instructors.
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