Regarding the Pujols clips…
Clips 13-17 foot down… bat back… nowhere near contact, rotation has just started
Clips 17 – 22 full rotation and contact… no weight on back foot at contact
Clips 22-23 contact point and one frame beyond… no wrist break yet, and well past the plate.
Clip 22 great position at contact.
BTW, this is what is called extension!
That brings up another thought. I don’t understand why we chased away Chris. Whether right or wrong, he brought a lot to the table here. I can say the same thing for many others including some who have posted in this thread. I really respect anyone who puts that much effort into something.
Not my clips, but good to see you.
quote:Originally posted by micmeister:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by micmeister:
http://chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Profes...sis_AlbertPujols.pdf
For Chameleon and Bluedog,
How does Pujols get from frame 20 to 22 if he isn't pushing/throwing with his top hand? Why would his right arm need to be bent at contact? If the wrists are no longer doing any work after go, as you say, why would it matter how the hands were placed on the bat at contact. Why couldn't a one armed man hit a 90mph fastball out of a MLB park? On that same thought, why do one arm guys always use their back arm to hit with? Thanks in advance for your replies!
You're welcome.
I posted something and deleted it because it had nothing to do with this discussion.
It was just a stupid post anyway.
Sorry
It was just a stupid post anyway.
Sorry
I read it, and it was a really good post.
Consider re-posting it.
Consider re-posting it.
I agree.
PGStaff is a humble man who brings a great deal to the game and this site.
I'm personally glad to see you posting again in the hitting thread. It's seems like you were on the site, but not in the hitting board for a while. It's nice to see your insight and experience. There are, maybe, five people whi I make sure I read every post every day. PG is must read.
On one hand you don't need to defend PG. It is an incredible organization. Yet, sometimes the cheap shots must strike the wrong way. You're fans will always outnumber the few detractors with agendas.
PGStaff is a humble man who brings a great deal to the game and this site.
I'm personally glad to see you posting again in the hitting thread. It's seems like you were on the site, but not in the hitting board for a while. It's nice to see your insight and experience. There are, maybe, five people whi I make sure I read every post every day. PG is must read.
On one hand you don't need to defend PG. It is an incredible organization. Yet, sometimes the cheap shots must strike the wrong way. You're fans will always outnumber the few detractors with agendas.
PG, I think what Quincy is trying to describe is the floating of the bat........
The "float" is a term, as for as I know, that originated with Chameleon.....
The bat needs to be moving while the decisions are being made......So, body and bat movement is happening early on in the swing process......This, is what "early" is all about in the swing as for as I believe......
I don't believe Quincy understands that the hands must not move forward early though......
And, I wouldn't even venture a guess as to what Micmeister believes......
The "float" is a term, as for as I know, that originated with Chameleon.....
The bat needs to be moving while the decisions are being made......So, body and bat movement is happening early on in the swing process......This, is what "early" is all about in the swing as for as I believe......
I don't believe Quincy understands that the hands must not move forward early though......
And, I wouldn't even venture a guess as to what Micmeister believes......
Centripetal Force
Any motion in a curved path represents accelerated motion, and requires a force directed toward the center of curvature of the path. This force is called the centripetal force which means "center seeking" force.
Swinging a mass on a string requires string tension, and the mass will travel off in a tangential straight line if the string breaks.
The centripetal acceleration can be derived for the case of circular motion since the curved path at any point can be extended to a circle.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html
READING THE BALL
By Dr. John Bagonzi
Real good batters are likely quite adept at “reading the ball,” and recognizing spins which enhances their ability to choose a pitch carefully.
Reading the ball requires an aerodynamic awareness. It requires an attentiveness and a focus on a particular point – something that many are not willing or able to do. It demands a purposeful intent to achieve a consciousness on a rotating body and removing any inhibitions one has towards the physics of moving objects.
http://pitchingprofessor.com/article_reading_the_ball.html
A 90 mph or slightly better fastball takes aproximately .5 seconds (half a second)to reach the plate.
The average swing approach with foot plant before forward motion in the swing takes at least .2 seconds (two tenths a second).
This swing approach takes less time due to executing the swing without foot plant as the forward force producing factor of the swing.
It takes about .1 seconds (one tenth a second).
This allows additional time to read the pitch, react to what is seen, as well as generate more force and bat speed.
You implied that you golf. Swing a bat a few times as you would swing a driver off the tee, full swing. Forget everything you know about swinging a baseball bat. Use the technique from the start using that same fluid feeling in the golf swing of the bat.
.I hope that clears it up for you.
Same thing as before. This is the more technical version of what I said and what I mean. It seems centripetal acceleration is not well understood.
Any motion in a curved path represents accelerated motion, and requires a force directed toward the center of curvature of the path. This force is called the centripetal force which means "center seeking" force.
Swinging a mass on a string requires string tension, and the mass will travel off in a tangential straight line if the string breaks.
The centripetal acceleration can be derived for the case of circular motion since the curved path at any point can be extended to a circle.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html
READING THE BALL
By Dr. John Bagonzi
Real good batters are likely quite adept at “reading the ball,” and recognizing spins which enhances their ability to choose a pitch carefully.
Reading the ball requires an aerodynamic awareness. It requires an attentiveness and a focus on a particular point – something that many are not willing or able to do. It demands a purposeful intent to achieve a consciousness on a rotating body and removing any inhibitions one has towards the physics of moving objects.
http://pitchingprofessor.com/article_reading_the_ball.html
A 90 mph or slightly better fastball takes aproximately .5 seconds (half a second)to reach the plate.
The average swing approach with foot plant before forward motion in the swing takes at least .2 seconds (two tenths a second).
This swing approach takes less time due to executing the swing without foot plant as the forward force producing factor of the swing.
It takes about .1 seconds (one tenth a second).
This allows additional time to read the pitch, react to what is seen, as well as generate more force and bat speed.
You implied that you golf. Swing a bat a few times as you would swing a driver off the tee, full swing. Forget everything you know about swinging a baseball bat. Use the technique from the start using that same fluid feeling in the golf swing of the bat.
.I hope that clears it up for you.
Same thing as before. This is the more technical version of what I said and what I mean. It seems centripetal acceleration is not well understood.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
PG, I think what Quincy is trying to describe is the floating of the bat........
The "float" is a term, as for as I know, that originated with Chameleon.....
The bat needs to be moving while the decisions are being made......So, body and bat movement is happening early on in the swing process......This, is what "early" is all about in the swing as for as I believe......
I don't believe Quincy understands that the hands must not move forward early though......
And, I wouldn't even venture a guess as to what Micmeister believes......
Taking the knob to the ball as the hips uncoil is early bat movement. Then, starting the upper body to the ball is also movement before the top hand fires. There, I answered your questions, now answer mine if you can.
I give you credit. You said that you didn't understand the concept or the application and you continue to prove that point deftly.
Clarification of centrripetal motion and accelleration was requested.
Good to see that you are consistent and still don't get it.
Clarification of centrripetal motion and accelleration was requested.
Good to see that you are consistent and still don't get it.
I'll make it so obvious even you can understand it.
Why is it that when I would push my child on a swing that the swing would not stop when it gets to level? Centripetal accelleration.
Why is it that when someone swings a bat that it does not stop in the middle of the swing ? Centripetal accelleration.
On reading the spin,
Who has the best chance to hit a curve ball, someone who reads the break or someone who reads the spin before the break?
Somehow I suspect that you will remain consistent.
Why is it that when I would push my child on a swing that the swing would not stop when it gets to level? Centripetal accelleration.
Why is it that when someone swings a bat that it does not stop in the middle of the swing ? Centripetal accelleration.
On reading the spin,
Who has the best chance to hit a curve ball, someone who reads the break or someone who reads the spin before the break?
Somehow I suspect that you will remain consistent.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
I'll make it so obvious even you can understand it.
Why is it that when I would push my child on a swing that the swing would not stop when it gets to level? Centripetal accelleration.
Why is it that when someone swings a bat that it does not stop in the middle of the swing ? Centripetal accelleration.
On reading the spin,
Who has the best chance to hit a curve ball, someone who reads the break or someone who reads the spin before the break?
Somehow I suspect that you will remain consistent.
I quess I learned something,I thought it was momentum we was trying to achieve when hitting a baseball.
It's,
It is said that there is virtue in consistency. I used the other items for purposes of demonstration in the appllcation. Maybe one day, you'll get it.
tfox,
You are looking for momentum, but circular as compared to another direction.
It is said that there is virtue in consistency. I used the other items for purposes of demonstration in the appllcation. Maybe one day, you'll get it.
tfox,
You are looking for momentum, but circular as compared to another direction.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quincy:
I'll make it so obvious even you can understand it.
Why is it that when I would push my child on a swing that the swing would not stop when it gets to level? Centripetal accelleration.
Why is it that when someone swings a bat that it does not stop in the middle of the swing ? Centripetal accelleration.
QUOTE]
Here in lies the problem. Taking your child on a swing scenario, if I throw a bowling ball at the child at any point during his/her swing, they will not reach the same point given the same push as if left alone. The same goes for the bat and ball. If I don't continue the momentum in either swing the ball will affect it adversely.
I'll make it so obvious even you can understand it.
Why is it that when I would push my child on a swing that the swing would not stop when it gets to level? Centripetal accelleration.
Why is it that when someone swings a bat that it does not stop in the middle of the swing ? Centripetal accelleration.
QUOTE]
Here in lies the problem. Taking your child on a swing scenario, if I throw a bowling ball at the child at any point during his/her swing, they will not reach the same point given the same push as if left alone. The same goes for the bat and ball. If I don't continue the momentum in either swing the ball will affect it adversely.
What you state is correct,there is centrepital motion needed to create momentum to hit a ball,BUT you forget one important part as micmeister is trying to point out.
YOU NEED LEVERAGE to keep the bat from bouncing backwards.
Your top hand creates leverage.
It sounds to me like you are trying to use the old saying ,throw your hands out there and let the bat do the work.
But you are still off base with the front foot.It must be down before contact.
If you would back off that 1 statement,this whole thread would have more since about it. IMO
YOU NEED LEVERAGE to keep the bat from bouncing backwards.
Your top hand creates leverage.
It sounds to me like you are trying to use the old saying ,throw your hands out there and let the bat do the work.
But you are still off base with the front foot.It must be down before contact.
If you would back off that 1 statement,this whole thread would have more since about it. IMO
Somewhat warped scenario, but not applicable.
Continuing in this macabre line of thinking, a baseball at 5 oz is approximately at a 6/1 disadvantage in weight.
If a 200 pound man ran into a 1200 pound object in motion, would the 1200 pound object in motion be stopped?
.
Continuing in this macabre line of thinking, a baseball at 5 oz is approximately at a 6/1 disadvantage in weight.
If a 200 pound man ran into a 1200 pound object in motion, would the 1200 pound object in motion be stopped?
.
It wouldn't actually bounce back but there is give.That's the point I was trying to make.
IMO,that is why you see the top hand behind the bat and elbow bent on most mlb batters now,rather than on top at contact.
I am sure there are many more with much more EXPERIENCE with this than I have.
IMO,that is why you see the top hand behind the bat and elbow bent on most mlb batters now,rather than on top at contact.
I am sure there are many more with much more EXPERIENCE with this than I have.
Actually you have the proper understanding but attribute the leverage to the top hand rather than the 'string tension' that the hands are creating in the circular motion.
The leverage in circular accelleration is apparent at every change in direction from a straight path.
The hands don't actually create the leverage, but passively assist in the leverage.
The leverage in circular accelleration is apparent at every change in direction from a straight path.
The hands don't actually create the leverage, but passively assist in the leverage.
So,am I right im my assumption that you are telling the kids to throw their hands at the ball(without actually saying it) because that sure sounds like what you are describing.
In the collission, there are two possible results, compression and/or deflection.
When a bat and ball collide in baseball, there is compression. The bat continues on its path with no deflection.
When a bat and ball collide in baseball, there is compression. The bat continues on its path with no deflection.
It isn't throwing their hands at the ball, but using the hands to aim at the ball.
What I have said is that using the first steps to generate bat speed allows the batter to trust that the bat will follow the hands.
There is a difference in bat speed generated.
What I have said is that using the first steps to generate bat speed allows the batter to trust that the bat will follow the hands.
There is a difference in bat speed generated.
This should put your front foot notions to rest.
But I doubt it.
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/08/the_shifting_sw.php
Check out the difference in the swing and the results of the one you seem to like to post the most.Then look at why the difference in results.
Also take a look at this.Front foot is creating leverage and he sure doesn't look like he has relaxed in the swing.
But I doubt it.
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/08/the_shifting_sw.php
Check out the difference in the swing and the results of the one you seem to like to post the most.Then look at why the difference in results.
Also take a look at this.Front foot is creating leverage and he sure doesn't look like he has relaxed in the swing.
Man,those arms are scary,but I am 140#'s soaking wet.Heck,I have to run around in the shower to get wet. 
Pujols uses the front foot plant style. The fact that it is successful for him justs makes plain that there is no one style fits all in batting.
The big difference in his style and the style that I endorse is the time needed to execute the swing.
Contact at front foot landing simpy catches the last bit of forward motion produced by the stride or weight shift.
The big difference in his style and the style that I endorse is the time needed to execute the swing.
Contact at front foot landing simpy catches the last bit of forward motion produced by the stride or weight shift.
If you try the style I am talking about you will be hitting like a 180 pounder.
When I was 13, I weighed about 125. The only bat we had was a 34"-34 oz.
I had to come up with a style that allowed me to handle the bat reasonably. Needless to say, I bunted a lot.
When I was 13, I weighed about 125. The only bat we had was a 34"-34 oz.
I had to come up with a style that allowed me to handle the bat reasonably. Needless to say, I bunted a lot.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
Pujols uses the front foot plant style. The fact that it is successful for him justs makes plain that there is no one style fits all in batting.
The big difference in his style and the style that I endorse is the time needed to execute the swing.
Contact at front foot landing simpy catches the last bit of forward motion produced by the stride or weight shift.
READ THE ARTICLE ON A-ROD that I linked to.
The picture was just a side note.
Good article and analysis.
One for this year would be interesting since he is relying less on generating power off the foot plant.
Have you tried this style that I am speaking of?
One for this year would be interesting since he is relying less on generating power off the foot plant.
Have you tried this style that I am speaking of?
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
Good article and analysis.
One for this year would be interesting since he is relying less on generating power off the foot plant.
Have you tried this style that I am speaking of?
He is relying more on foot plant now than ever before in the past.
I have tried to practice swing your style and it is impossible to do what you say with foot plant.
All I end up doing is lunging off balance and looking like one of the 9 year olds on my sons team.
If you are getting a lunge then you are flying open at start. Spinning as they say. Try staying compact and in control.
Should be something like this
David Wright
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=598363&...l=&type=v_free&_mp=1
ARod was using big front foot plant last year. This caused to pull almost everything he hit. This year he is using the whole park and staying lighter on his feet.
Should be something like this
David Wright
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=598363&...l=&type=v_free&_mp=1
ARod was using big front foot plant last year. This caused to pull almost everything he hit. This year he is using the whole park and staying lighter on his feet.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
In the collission, there are two possible results, compression and/or deflection.
When a bat and ball collide in baseball, there is compression. The bat continues on its path with no deflection.
You have obviously never seen a Freshman in High School face a 90mph fastball, the bat does give. I agree that at a certain velocity the bat won't bounce back if the weight is sufficient, but we are teaching High School and under kids here. Most need leverage and strength to get through the ball. The swing is really no different than throwing a ball. You are pulling at one point and pushing at another, but if you stop pushing at any point before your normal release point you will lose velocity. That is why hitters don't let go of their top hand until they are THROUGH the ball.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
If you are getting a lunge then you are flying open at start. Spinning as they say. Try staying compact and in control.
Should be something like this
David Wright
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=598363&...l=&type=v_free&_mp=1
ARod was using big front foot plant last year. This caused to pull almost everything he hit. This year he is using the whole park and staying lighter on his feet.
Foot down, bat back!
In the case you mention, the bat is not hitting the ball, the ball is hitting the bat. The batter probably would close his eyes and hope.
If a batter can bring the bat around even as a freshman to hit a 90 mph fastball, there is juice in the swing.
The Florida State 6-A Semi Final game had a kid throwing 97 on the gun and still got pounded 10-0. These kids can bring it both ways.
There should be no pushing. Our muscles work by contraction.
If you can use every possible advantage in pulling the bat at the start, you will pull it as fast as you can.
Any attempt to change the flight of the bat after that will slow the bat down.
You're teaching the young kids to carry the bat through the zone. Many people do this especially in Tee Ball. It makes for a slow stiff swing.
Look at the four steps that I mention. It's all about generating bat speed using every possible advantage. It will work for a young kid as well as an MLB player.
The Wright clip was about staying compact and in control.
.
If a batter can bring the bat around even as a freshman to hit a 90 mph fastball, there is juice in the swing.
The Florida State 6-A Semi Final game had a kid throwing 97 on the gun and still got pounded 10-0. These kids can bring it both ways.
There should be no pushing. Our muscles work by contraction.
If you can use every possible advantage in pulling the bat at the start, you will pull it as fast as you can.
Any attempt to change the flight of the bat after that will slow the bat down.
You're teaching the young kids to carry the bat through the zone. Many people do this especially in Tee Ball. It makes for a slow stiff swing.
Look at the four steps that I mention. It's all about generating bat speed using every possible advantage. It will work for a young kid as well as an MLB player.
The Wright clip was about staying compact and in control.
.
I think it is rather funny that so much emphasis is being placed on the perfect use of this swing and how hard it is to attain perfection.
If any batter goes up thinking about his foot landing after the swing, he has no shot.
Where and when the foot lands should be a passive part of the swing as much as wrist break or the uncocking of the wrists. If it were an integral part of the swing I would have included it.
The basis of this style is to swing without the 'foot plant and catapult' action.
If any batter goes up thinking about his foot landing after the swing, he has no shot.
Where and when the foot lands should be a passive part of the swing as much as wrist break or the uncocking of the wrists. If it were an integral part of the swing I would have included it.
The basis of this style is to swing without the 'foot plant and catapult' action.
Good hitters, regardless of their age, do not think when hitting---they react
I think good hitters adjust. You sometimes see a pitcher have his way the first time through an order and then struggle the second time through.
For example, if a pitcher has a 93 mph fastball and an 86 mph slider and works away. I think good hitters are looking away at 90 mph. That's thinking. I agree that in the .4 - .5 seconds from delivery of the pitcher to read and swing (or not) there is not a lot of thinking time.
Pedro is so good because he is unpredictable. Predictable pitchers can be hit by major league hitters. It is why pitching away is good, but there has to be more than just away. Thinking and hitting do go together. Otherwise, if you are just reacting you cannot play.
Vlad is a great exception to what I just said. Edmonds is not, he is a guess hitter. Bonds spent so much time early learning to hit opposite field but now crowds, makes the outside pitch a middle pitch and simply is looking to pull. But even Bonds can hit opposite field if that's all he sees.
For example, if a pitcher has a 93 mph fastball and an 86 mph slider and works away. I think good hitters are looking away at 90 mph. That's thinking. I agree that in the .4 - .5 seconds from delivery of the pitcher to read and swing (or not) there is not a lot of thinking time.
Pedro is so good because he is unpredictable. Predictable pitchers can be hit by major league hitters. It is why pitching away is good, but there has to be more than just away. Thinking and hitting do go together. Otherwise, if you are just reacting you cannot play.
Vlad is a great exception to what I just said. Edmonds is not, he is a guess hitter. Bonds spent so much time early learning to hit opposite field but now crowds, makes the outside pitch a middle pitch and simply is looking to pull. But even Bonds can hit opposite field if that's all he sees.
I think we can say react=adjust
quote:Originally posted by baseballpapa:
I think good hitters adjust. You sometimes see a pitcher have his way the first time through an order and then struggle the second time through.
For example, if a pitcher has a 93 mph fastball and an 86 mph slider and works away. I think good hitters are looking away at 90 mph. That's thinking. I agree that in the .4 - .5 seconds from delivery of the pitcher to read and swing (or not) there is not a lot of thinking time.
Pedro is so good because he is unpredictable. Predictable pitchers can be hit by major league hitters. It is why pitching away is good, but there has to be more than just away. Thinking and hitting do go together. Otherwise, if you are just reacting you cannot play.
Vlad is a great exception to what I just said. Edmonds is not, he is a guess hitter. Bonds spent so much time early learning to hit opposite field but now crowds, makes the outside pitch a middle pitch and simply is looking to pull. But even Bonds can hit opposite field if that's all he sees.
According to Larry Walker, he used to sing songs in his head, think how goofy the pitcher looked, sometimes nothing at all. From his own mouth, "I just see it and hit it." IMO, the better vision you have combined with recognition, concentration/focus, athletic ability and batspeed, the less you have to "guess" or "think" at the plate. Without a doubt though, if you guess right, you will be more productive.
My son was the same way, simply react. However, some say they go to the plate to "execute" and they are not talking about simply reacting. They are reacting to pitcher tendencies.
To support what you are saying, though, I think one study showed a greater incidence of ADHD in position players in the MLB than the general population. The ADHD person has a gift. They can focus in when the stakes are high and leave all else behind.
To support what you are saying, though, I think one study showed a greater incidence of ADHD in position players in the MLB than the general population. The ADHD person has a gift. They can focus in when the stakes are high and leave all else behind.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
I think it is rather funny that so much emphasis is being placed on the perfect use of this swing and how hard it is to attain perfection.
If any batter goes up thinking about his foot landing after the swing, he has no shot.
Where and when the foot lands should be a passive part of the swing as much as wrist break or the uncocking of the wrists. If it were an integral part of the swing I would have included it.
The basis of this style is to swing without the 'foot plant and catapult' action.
Okay! Here is a way to settle this once and for all. Since you know what you are talking about and how to create this swing, you test it. Stand on your back foot and swing to contact point, then swing to contact with both feet on the ground spread slightly more than shoulder width apart and have some one track the batspeed with a radar gun.
quote:Originally posted by baseballpapa:
My son was the same way, simply react. However, some say they go to the plate to "execute" and they are not talking about simply reacting. They are reacting to pitcher tendencies.
To support what you are saying, though, I think one study showed a greater incidence of ADHD in position players in the MLB than the general population. The ADHD person has a gift. They can focus in when the stakes are high and leave all else behind.
That is very interesting! I had never heard that before. I'd like to read that. I wonder what the % of players in the MLB is with ADHD and to take it even further, what it is in the Minors and College levels. My Dad always called what I had "a one tracked mind."
