One point is being missed here--- nobody is condoning the use of 'roids et al--- what is being debated are the means and methods of obtaining the so called facts if they are actually facts.
To Been:
I have a hard time understanding why you can't see the light. People have talked about whether or not the "facts" were obtained legally or not. Facts is facts. If you're a coach, I'd like to know the answer to the previous poster's question. Would you allow your players to take steroids if it made them the great ballplayer that you think BB is? It sounds like you would and I find that hard to believe.
I have a hard time understanding why you can't see the light. People have talked about whether or not the "facts" were obtained legally or not. Facts is facts. If you're a coach, I'd like to know the answer to the previous poster's question. Would you allow your players to take steroids if it made them the great ballplayer that you think BB is? It sounds like you would and I find that hard to believe.
Been, a monogram is not an "drawn" or "photographed" image.
98% of MLB players have their name embroidered on their gloves, he11 I even have a glove with my name on it, but it doesn't have a picture of me on the back of the wrist.
98% of MLB players have their name embroidered on their gloves, he11 I even have a glove with my name on it, but it doesn't have a picture of me on the back of the wrist.
TR,
Seems like no matter how the facts were collected, they are indeed facts. I think the debate should be about Bonds and his decision to use steroids to gain a competitive advantage for what we now know to be the better part of his career.
Seems like no matter how the facts were collected, they are indeed facts. I think the debate should be about Bonds and his decision to use steroids to gain a competitive advantage for what we now know to be the better part of his career.
One reaps what one sews.
However the alleged "facts" got out are a whole other issue, but I'll be shocked if there is any litigation by Bonds, ever, as then Bonds would be required to give a deposition, testify under oath, turn over records, documents, etc., under penalty of perjury. It will never happen.
He's done. No HOF, unless they create a steroid wing for Sosa Palmeiro, Maquire, Canseco, Bonds, etc.
I can truly and seriously envision this: 30-40 years down the road, a display at Cooperstown about the drug-infested period in the late 1900's, with before and after pictures of some of the balloon boys, statistics, etc. It may be the only way those guys ever get in....
However the alleged "facts" got out are a whole other issue, but I'll be shocked if there is any litigation by Bonds, ever, as then Bonds would be required to give a deposition, testify under oath, turn over records, documents, etc., under penalty of perjury. It will never happen.
He's done. No HOF, unless they create a steroid wing for Sosa Palmeiro, Maquire, Canseco, Bonds, etc.
I can truly and seriously envision this: 30-40 years down the road, a display at Cooperstown about the drug-infested period in the late 1900's, with before and after pictures of some of the balloon boys, statistics, etc. It may be the only way those guys ever get in....
Facts are not Facts if not truthfully substantiated
As one talk show host said this morning with regard to the Dubai/Port situation "why not ask the SF Chronicle writers? They seem to have all ther answers"
As one talk show host said this morning with regard to the Dubai/Port situation "why not ask the SF Chronicle writers? They seem to have all ther answers"
Ohmygod! Are we in a period of denial? It won't help.
breggie....
I'm fine. Not in denial at all.
I'm just a big Barry fan.
More after I read the article in SI.
I'm fine. Not in denial at all.
I'm just a big Barry fan.
More after I read the article in SI.
.
Correct me if I am wrong but...
The acid test is will there be a lawsuit? If someone were so specifically and surgically making allegations like these, not just rumors, but times and places, I'd sue them and make them prove their info and sources. On the other hand if thought those sources were credible and I did not want the spotlight I might just say...
44
Correct me if I am wrong but...
The acid test is will there be a lawsuit? If someone were so specifically and surgically making allegations like these, not just rumors, but times and places, I'd sue them and make them prove their info and sources. On the other hand if thought those sources were credible and I did not want the spotlight I might just say...
quote:"It's like, 'Whatever, dude.'"
44
It's obvious that, pertaining to Bonds, those writers truly do have all the answers...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TRhit:
I am with BEENTHERE-- [QUOTE]
Yes. As Bonds apologists and with your heads in the sand on this issue.
I am with BEENTHERE-- [QUOTE]
Yes. As Bonds apologists and with your heads in the sand on this issue.
Quite odd but not surprising at all that after the most specific & damaging info comes out on Bonds there is no denial or any mention of a lawsuit. There won't be either going forward.
I do believe though that he belongs in the HOF. He was a first ballot guy before the juice and the hall should be based only on #'s and impact on the game.
The roids were not banned by baseball at the time. There are a number of bad guys in various sports halls of fame.
The only thing I hate is that the sacred home run records were obliterated by the juicers and Bonds will probably pass Aaron.
I do believe though that he belongs in the HOF. He was a first ballot guy before the juice and the hall should be based only on #'s and impact on the game.
The roids were not banned by baseball at the time. There are a number of bad guys in various sports halls of fame.
The only thing I hate is that the sacred home run records were obliterated by the juicers and Bonds will probably pass Aaron.
dbg
No sand where I live--- you have the sand in your vast expases of wasteland--It is amazing to me how much you know about others that you have never met or talked too
No sand where I live--- you have the sand in your vast expases of wasteland--It is amazing to me how much you know about others that you have never met or talked too
TR.....and Been.......let Bonds do the talking for you.....any man in their right mind would sue these writers....you both have to know that.....so let's just wait for Barry's announcement......obviously.....for damage control purposes....the announcement of pending legal action will come shortly....don't you think?
Being a Big Fan of any sports star and then finding out his feet are made of clay (or his muscles by chemistry) is hard....when you're twelve. As adults, I'm surprised at the amount of credulity being displayed here, despite the physical evidence, the fact of an investigation having taken place, and the documents revealed in the article and book.
Investigative reporters investigate; it's what they do and the idea wasn't invented by the SF Chronicle. What they don't do is reveal their sources, and that's gone through the courts repeatedly. Shady people don't want their secrets out, and (given enough money) most secrets can be exceedingly well hidden. Would the Barry Posse here prefer that such things never came to light? How about if it were a politician skimming tax dollars for personal use?
Barry doesn't get paid his millions because of his hand-eye coordination, his Bonds DNA, or his (at varying times
) five tools; not so many years ago, talented ballplayers made the same then maybe twice that of an average executive. He gets paid that kind of extraordinary sum because baseball is big business now and the fans who love the game buy tickets, jerseys, caps, hot dogs and beer. That's the 'tax' we pay for our love of MLB.
He has been investigated, documents that could prove he perjured himself have been uncovered and they bloody well should have been published, just like they would be published on that politician.
It may well have been set up that way, but that bone-on-bone knee needs to be invoked to allow Barry to go away. MLB doesn't need him, the fans don't need him, and baseball sure as Hades doesn't need him. Baseball also doesn't need the Pandora's Box (keeping with the classical theme) of annotated/eliminated records opened. Most of us are vaguely familiar with the Black Sox; I do believe future generations of fans will know about The Steroid Era.
He has the single season record, and I sincerely hope he is not allowed to use his steroid-based-stats to acquire any more records.
But what will ESPN do with all that air time without BB to talk about?
Investigative reporters investigate; it's what they do and the idea wasn't invented by the SF Chronicle. What they don't do is reveal their sources, and that's gone through the courts repeatedly. Shady people don't want their secrets out, and (given enough money) most secrets can be exceedingly well hidden. Would the Barry Posse here prefer that such things never came to light? How about if it were a politician skimming tax dollars for personal use?
Barry doesn't get paid his millions because of his hand-eye coordination, his Bonds DNA, or his (at varying times
) five tools; not so many years ago, talented ballplayers made the same then maybe twice that of an average executive. He gets paid that kind of extraordinary sum because baseball is big business now and the fans who love the game buy tickets, jerseys, caps, hot dogs and beer. That's the 'tax' we pay for our love of MLB.He has been investigated, documents that could prove he perjured himself have been uncovered and they bloody well should have been published, just like they would be published on that politician.
It may well have been set up that way, but that bone-on-bone knee needs to be invoked to allow Barry to go away. MLB doesn't need him, the fans don't need him, and baseball sure as Hades doesn't need him. Baseball also doesn't need the Pandora's Box (keeping with the classical theme) of annotated/eliminated records opened. Most of us are vaguely familiar with the Black Sox; I do believe future generations of fans will know about The Steroid Era.
He has the single season record, and I sincerely hope he is not allowed to use his steroid-based-stats to acquire any more records.
But what will ESPN do with all that air time without BB to talk about?
LadyNMom,
Anyone can sue anyone for anything with about $70 bucks to file in court. Read as much as you can about this book and how the information was obtained and you could start to see that there are no grounds for a public figure to sue the authors. I think people can still argue as to whether steroids made a big difference in Bonds' production. You now have to concede that the guy was a user or have no one listen to any other point you make about Bonds.
Anyone can sue anyone for anything with about $70 bucks to file in court. Read as much as you can about this book and how the information was obtained and you could start to see that there are no grounds for a public figure to sue the authors. I think people can still argue as to whether steroids made a big difference in Bonds' production. You now have to concede that the guy was a user or have no one listen to any other point you make about Bonds.
Orlando well said.
Baseballdad......a FoxSports.com poll going on now asks the question: "Do you think Barry Bonds every knowingly took steroids"? To date 92% of the 150,000 that have voted.....say yes. That is not very good for Barry....at some point he is going to have to consider his options....and being a public figure does not prevent him from filing libel charges. It has been done often by celebrities.......that said.....I'd be surprised if Bonds files anything.....
Because if you want to win........ it helps to be innocent.
Because if you want to win........ it helps to be innocent.
There aren't many options. What he did he did. Now he can continue to play and let the chips fall where they may when he retires. His reputation is in permanent shambles and he will forever be connected with steroids.
The person that I feel sorry for at this point is Ken Griffey Jr. He did his work the old fashioned way and his body and stats show what a homerun hitter in his prime and past his prime really can do. I really wish with all of these juicers going down the tube that Griffey Jr. will get his just due as one of baseball's all time great Homerun Hitters.
TR,
'Telling it like it is' is hard when you are on the receiving end. No 'rose colored lenses' in my glasses.
I have characterized you as a Bonds apologist based on your history of posts on this topic. In the face of considerable and mounting evidence to the contrary, you continue to defend Bonds by denying certain facts (on behalf of Bonds) while attempting to discredit the investigative journalists. This is a 'head in the sand' approach to debating this topic.
'Telling it like it is' is hard when you are on the receiving end. No 'rose colored lenses' in my glasses.
I have characterized you as a Bonds apologist based on your history of posts on this topic. In the face of considerable and mounting evidence to the contrary, you continue to defend Bonds by denying certain facts (on behalf of Bonds) while attempting to discredit the investigative journalists. This is a 'head in the sand' approach to debating this topic.
Because there is no positive test results everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, I've always wondered why the Players Union or PFoB (Professional Friends of Barry) have not united and shown their committed support through all this.
Chairman:
I've heard those exact words uttered to my son by baseball coaching staff members during visits to colleges in the past two years. It is frightening.
quote:Originally posted by Chairman:
it's sad really, but NOT SURPRISING
what do "baseball people" tell our players at every level??
hs .........."you gotta get bigger & stronger"!
college ... "YOU GOTTA GET BIGGER & STRONGER"!!
pro ......."YOU GOTTA GET BIGGER & STRONGER"!!!
if you've been busting your *ss in the weight room since hs,
all you have to do is look around you to see what they REALLY MEAN
I've heard those exact words uttered to my son by baseball coaching staff members during visits to colleges in the past two years. It is frightening.
"I did not have *** with that women" - Clinton
"I never bet on baseball" - Rose
"I never took steriods" - Palmero
To this day they probaly still have supporters that believe they are innocent.
"I never bet on baseball" - Rose
"I never took steriods" - Palmero
To this day they probaly still have supporters that believe they are innocent.
44:
Years ago our culture had a mechanism to help prevent this type of destructive action and behavior...it was the powerful twins of scorn and shame...both, sadly, are in very short supply and now rather impotent in helping us stay in line. I wish it wasn't so.
quote:Originally posted by observer44:
It is my fondest hope that some kids are simply repulsed by this amount of detail...
Years ago our culture had a mechanism to help prevent this type of destructive action and behavior...it was the powerful twins of scorn and shame...both, sadly, are in very short supply and now rather impotent in helping us stay in line. I wish it wasn't so.
OK....Bullwinkle got teased....
"BONDS EXPOSED!"
I thought that after Barry dressed up as Paula Abdul that Playboy had offered Barry some $$$$ to show a little skin...
All I get is a performance-enhancing drugs article,.....this is news? I thought that after Barrys noggin' turned into a pumpkin that everyone knew....I guess I stand corrected.
Bullwinkle is bummed.
"BONDS EXPOSED!"
I thought that after Barry dressed up as Paula Abdul that Playboy had offered Barry some $$$$ to show a little skin...
All I get is a performance-enhancing drugs article,.....this is news? I thought that after Barrys noggin' turned into a pumpkin that everyone knew....I guess I stand corrected.
Bullwinkle is bummed.
I'm just waiting for Jetstream Jessie Jackson to pull out the race card.
He'd have to get in line; Barry already has.
"If the (hat) fits, you must...uhhhh...errr...ACQUIT"??? 
Somehow I think this will all come down to what the definition of "is" IS. Right, Beenthere and TR?
Somehow I think this will all come down to what the definition of "is" IS. Right, Beenthere and TR?
I won't fuss at the Bonds supporters as loyalty is an admirable trait in my book, and an often under-appreciated one.
Regarding the credibility of the sources though, does anyone think that Time-Life, owners of SI, doesn't have lawyers, scads of them, that signed off on running this epistle, based upon their belief they could win any court challenge. After all, SI just ran the swimsuit edition, their annual best-seller, so it's not like they needed a cash influx.
The worst part is my subscription lapsed, and the renewal hasn't kicked in, so I missed the Swimsuit issue (that my wife normally deposits in the trash can anyway) and now the Barry bare it issue. Talk about bad timing....
Regarding the credibility of the sources though, does anyone think that Time-Life, owners of SI, doesn't have lawyers, scads of them, that signed off on running this epistle, based upon their belief they could win any court challenge. After all, SI just ran the swimsuit edition, their annual best-seller, so it's not like they needed a cash influx.
The worst part is my subscription lapsed, and the renewal hasn't kicked in, so I missed the Swimsuit issue (that my wife normally deposits in the trash can anyway) and now the Barry bare it issue. Talk about bad timing....
In another conversation today, I was reminded that although the jurors, DA, judge, and any official court-type folk can't speak about the proceedings, anyone who testified can talk about what they testified to; that's how most Grand Jury information gets out. So the reporters probably got all the info quite legally. And why wouldn't they publish just as ST starts and Barry's back in the headlines?
As far as suing for libel, he'd be remarkably silly to. That would put the GF, Balco, Anderson, all the assorted and sordid characters, as well as the documentation used for the book, right out in the public's face. The only defense against libel is the truth, and it would be Barry on trial. Given what can be inferred from the book/SI, such a trial might give way too much evidence that Barry perjured himself before the Grand Jury, and he was not given immunity for that charge. (Not to mention potential testimony about his having evaded taxes.) BB could find himself in a world of doo-doo. And how exactly could he prove it was libel with malice that could do him damage? Is he not still earning?
Selig needs to grow a pair and cut a deal with Bonds to retire. (I can't believe I just typed that. Ah, well, stranger things have happened....)
As far as suing for libel, he'd be remarkably silly to. That would put the GF, Balco, Anderson, all the assorted and sordid characters, as well as the documentation used for the book, right out in the public's face. The only defense against libel is the truth, and it would be Barry on trial. Given what can be inferred from the book/SI, such a trial might give way too much evidence that Barry perjured himself before the Grand Jury, and he was not given immunity for that charge. (Not to mention potential testimony about his having evaded taxes.) BB could find himself in a world of doo-doo. And how exactly could he prove it was libel with malice that could do him damage? Is he not still earning?
Selig needs to grow a pair and cut a deal with Bonds to retire. (I can't believe I just typed that. Ah, well, stranger things have happened....)
Hokieone.....didn't you know...there is no more swimsuit edition? Just ask my son....he has had an annual subscription going back about 6 years...and we haven't seen the swimsuit edition....for the past 5 years...all the other issues have been tossed all over the house...and one year I did find a pair of 3D glasses.....what was that.....but not the swimsuit editions....his Dad and I have just assumed they did away with them.....
....and you are right.....loyalty is a good thing.....better than stupidity....
....and you are right.....loyalty is a good thing.....better than stupidity....
quote:If it is true that this stuff helps his eye-hand coordination and some reputable scientific entity publishes a study, I will jump off of his bandwagon.
Been, so you will only jump of his bandwagon if it can be scientifically proven that steroids improve hand/eye coordination? His H/E was always teriffic. Bat speed is what turns pop ups into homers, foul tips into homers, 310 foot flyouts into homers. Look at the stats, man. I'm off his bandwagon becasue he took steroids and a great number of his homeruns was while under the influence.
Orlando,
Perhaps baseball would be all the better if Barry and Selig were to go on a retirement program together!
Perhaps baseball would be all the better if Barry and Selig were to go on a retirement program together!
Orlando,
OPP,
ditto!
OPP,
ditto!
Have any of you heard the authors on any talk shows ?--boy can they tap dance !!!
WFAN in NY today was all over them in a phone interview and they did not get many straight answers to their questions
WFAN in NY today was all over them in a phone interview and they did not get many straight answers to their questions
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Have any of you heard the authors on any talk shows ?--boy can they tap dance !!!
Haven't heard them look forward too. They probably took their tap dance lesson from Bonds! Has he talked about Sanford and Sons lately....now that was a good tap dance
TR.....and what New York station do we tune to.....to hear Barry? Think Orlando nailed it.....Barry can't say much.....we won't hear him on WFAN.....or any other station....he has too much to loose.....it's not even a matter of a tap dance...at this point even a slow waltz with the media will get him in trouble....
So....Send Barry to hell for his steroid misgivings - O.k. No problem. Nobody condones steroid use (knowingly or unknowingly).
Deny his records if you will. That's fine, too.
Worried about bad examples for our 'children'? Then you better teach them that one of the most sacred covenants in the American justice system ought not be broken, either. That is a far more serious offense in my book. Teach them that grand jury matters are, with extremely rare exception, not public matter. For the most part there is a very definitive and finite portion of any grand jury matter that can be made public.
Teach them that FBI agents take an oath that among other things, disallows for revealing confidential matters.
There are a lot of people that crossed a lot of boundaries and I am more concerned about that.
My kid knows right from wrong. Barry ain't gonna influence him. I'm really hoping these other equally vile individuals won't either.
Deny his records if you will. That's fine, too.
Worried about bad examples for our 'children'? Then you better teach them that one of the most sacred covenants in the American justice system ought not be broken, either. That is a far more serious offense in my book. Teach them that grand jury matters are, with extremely rare exception, not public matter. For the most part there is a very definitive and finite portion of any grand jury matter that can be made public.
Teach them that FBI agents take an oath that among other things, disallows for revealing confidential matters.
There are a lot of people that crossed a lot of boundaries and I am more concerned about that.
My kid knows right from wrong. Barry ain't gonna influence him. I'm really hoping these other equally vile individuals won't either.