2seamer....I would like to thank you for your persistence.....in the course of debate....you have educated me and my family greatly.....
TR....I would like to remind you of the thread you started on 3/23....titled, "A REMINDER"...in which you cautioned us not to get to take things personally.....I only say this because you frequently ask posters....what do you do....what's your background........and in the spirit of debate.....that really doesn't matter does it....and it seems to be getting personal....
Forget all the PR
and the legal mumbo jumbo - and all the people making money off this disgrace to the game.
Barry is a meal ticket to some - and a juicy one.
Barry is a legend to others - especially himself.
But the most important thing all of our kids need to realize - is that Barry is a POS - a cheater - and a liar.
Let the lawyers and journalists and the rest of the hyenas make money off the dude - but remember him for what he has always been.
A lying POS.
and the legal mumbo jumbo - and all the people making money off this disgrace to the game.
Barry is a meal ticket to some - and a juicy one.
Barry is a legend to others - especially himself.
But the most important thing all of our kids need to realize - is that Barry is a POS - a cheater - and a liar.
Let the lawyers and journalists and the rest of the hyenas make money off the dude - but remember him for what he has always been.
A lying POS.
LadyNmom...thanks....I hope all this debate does some good...Summer ball is coming up faster than you think, and the mantra "get bigger, get stronger" is going to be in a lot of college guy's heads as this season draws to a close, and they look forward to another season...or perhaps a career coming to an end.
TR's churlishness doesn't bother me...I've been around this site for around eight years...(man, time flies, it may have even been a tad longer)...and that's the way he is. Sometimes insightful, sometimes pithy, sometimes downright rude..I've got a thick skin.
itsinthegame...you're exactly right. It's funny and sad at the same time...Barry wants to sue the authors...not because the info isn't true..but because they saw some Grand Jury testimony before it was made public. Hammer meets nail...if the very specific, explicit testimony couldn't be backed up with facts, he'd sue them for that. He's not, and he won't..just like I predicted when "Barry's Foxhole Fanclub" was protesting that it just couldn't be true, the Grand Jury system should be investigated, The SF Chronicle has a vendetta, Barry is the greatest hitter ever..yada, yada, yada...the very last thing Barry wants to do is shoehorn his oversized head into a courtroom and deal with facts.
Since Giants ownership won't do the right thing and tell Barry to sit, it would seem MLB would do the right thing, and suspend him until he can explain the cattle steroids, Human Growth Hormone, designer steroids, and all of the other **** he was taking. Oh, that's right, that would be Bud Selig...the guy that didn't think there was a steroid problem in baseball, the guy that wants to wait until he picks up a copy of the book at his friendly neighborhood Barnes & Noble before he renders a decision...the Nationals will be playing in Las Vegas before he makes his mind up what to do...there's money to be made by the Giants and MLB when Barry lumbers past Babe and Hank..
TR's churlishness doesn't bother me...I've been around this site for around eight years...(man, time flies, it may have even been a tad longer)...and that's the way he is. Sometimes insightful, sometimes pithy, sometimes downright rude..I've got a thick skin.
itsinthegame...you're exactly right. It's funny and sad at the same time...Barry wants to sue the authors...not because the info isn't true..but because they saw some Grand Jury testimony before it was made public. Hammer meets nail...if the very specific, explicit testimony couldn't be backed up with facts, he'd sue them for that. He's not, and he won't..just like I predicted when "Barry's Foxhole Fanclub" was protesting that it just couldn't be true, the Grand Jury system should be investigated, The SF Chronicle has a vendetta, Barry is the greatest hitter ever..yada, yada, yada...the very last thing Barry wants to do is shoehorn his oversized head into a courtroom and deal with facts.
Since Giants ownership won't do the right thing and tell Barry to sit, it would seem MLB would do the right thing, and suspend him until he can explain the cattle steroids, Human Growth Hormone, designer steroids, and all of the other **** he was taking. Oh, that's right, that would be Bud Selig...the guy that didn't think there was a steroid problem in baseball, the guy that wants to wait until he picks up a copy of the book at his friendly neighborhood Barnes & Noble before he renders a decision...the Nationals will be playing in Las Vegas before he makes his mind up what to do...there's money to be made by the Giants and MLB when Barry lumbers past Babe and Hank..
2seamer
thanx for the compliment
thanx for the compliment
No problemo. 
and now barry has announced that he is "sitting out the spring".........
quote:Forget all the PR
and the legal mumbo jumbo - and all the people making money off this disgrace to the game.
Barry is a meal ticket to some - and a juicy one.
Barry is a legend to others - especially himself.
But the most important thing all of our kids need to realize - is that Barry is a POS - a cheater - and a liar.
Let the lawyers and journalists and the rest of the hyenas make money off the dude - but remember him for what he has always been.
A lying POS.
Its...I like how you get right to the point. Yours pretty much bottom lines it.
To All
I've read all the post and can't, for-the-life-of-me, decide what all the hoopla is about.
Athletes have been using "performance enhancers" for many many years, long before Bonds was born and long after he will be gone.
The empahsis on "discovering" the naked truth about "juicing" with HGH and steroids is just another phase that the sports have gone through.
Is it right, no, but lets stop acting like little boys that are finding out for the first time that your parents had marital relations to have you.
The bottom line is that this is about "money" pure-and-simple. The MLB has been making money off of Bonds for a long time, and now that he is close to "the Babe's" record all the R/B's crawl out of the wood work. So now the SF Chronicle, a propanda rag of the worse kind has a couple of reporters that want to make some chump-change off of Bonds too.
So what's new, all of them are pimps and *****s using the players for their own purposes. JMO
I've read all the post and can't, for-the-life-of-me, decide what all the hoopla is about.
Athletes have been using "performance enhancers" for many many years, long before Bonds was born and long after he will be gone.
The empahsis on "discovering" the naked truth about "juicing" with HGH and steroids is just another phase that the sports have gone through.
Is it right, no, but lets stop acting like little boys that are finding out for the first time that your parents had marital relations to have you.
The bottom line is that this is about "money" pure-and-simple. The MLB has been making money off of Bonds for a long time, and now that he is close to "the Babe's" record all the R/B's crawl out of the wood work. So now the SF Chronicle, a propanda rag of the worse kind has a couple of reporters that want to make some chump-change off of Bonds too.
So what's new, all of them are pimps and *****s using the players for their own purposes. JMO
Ram....
I agree.
I agree.
RAMROD
Finally we agree on something !!!1
Finally we agree on something !!!1
To say this is only about money paints anyone and everyone involved with too broad of a brush. This is about the integrity of the game, presuming any is left in professional sports and about cheating, whether it is juicing, gambling, point shaving etc. That a few people are making money off of this is hardly the point. To that end, barry is hardly a victim here and acted on his own volition.
I would further note that I don't see anyone acting with some astonishment or surprise. Maybe disgust that here we go again and seemingly nothing will be done about it and/or that others see nothing wrong with it.
I would further note that I don't see anyone acting with some astonishment or surprise. Maybe disgust that here we go again and seemingly nothing will be done about it and/or that others see nothing wrong with it.
Ram, Been and TR.....are you all really suggesting and agreeing that Bonds is a victim here?
No doubt in my mind that the MLB turned a back on illegal drug usage....but that said.....Barry was just as culpable.....hubris....it's the only thing Barry is a victim of......
No doubt in my mind that the MLB turned a back on illegal drug usage....but that said.....Barry was just as culpable.....hubris....it's the only thing Barry is a victim of......
Apparently, LadyNMom. 
MLB, the reporters, the SF Chronicle....all making money off poor Barry. And all he got for his artificailly expanded and extended career was a $22 million annual paycheck. But the taint of money is only on the messengers. Well, now, that makes a great deal of sense.
I'm equally confused, Hey, about who is expressing astonishment. Other than those objecting to aspersions being cast on Poor Barry.
Bonds is the primary remaining Superstar of the suspected/admitted/caught steroid crew. The rest have either shrunk, been exposed, got out while the getting was good, or are no longer wanted. And Bonds is approaching one of the most hallowed records in baseball. There bloody well should be protests and an investigation.
MLB, the reporters, the SF Chronicle....all making money off poor Barry. And all he got for his artificailly expanded and extended career was a $22 million annual paycheck. But the taint of money is only on the messengers. Well, now, that makes a great deal of sense.
I'm equally confused, Hey, about who is expressing astonishment. Other than those objecting to aspersions being cast on Poor Barry.
Bonds is the primary remaining Superstar of the suspected/admitted/caught steroid crew. The rest have either shrunk, been exposed, got out while the getting was good, or are no longer wanted. And Bonds is approaching one of the most hallowed records in baseball. There bloody well should be protests and an investigation.
QUESTION FOR YOU ALL:
Why is Bonds the only one they want?
The Chronicle has been on Bonds for years because he wont give them the interviews they want--
If you know , as the authors say they do, who the other players are who are using "roids" why not name them all-- the two writers also wont name all their sources
If you are going to do it do the right way--name all the players you are aware of that use 'roids
I also tell you this--look at those two authors-- would you let them date your daughter ?
I also heard them, the authors, in an interview state that they did not write the book for the money are you kidding me--the book sells just by having the name of BARRY BONDS name on it.
I dont think any of us are condoning the use of steroids---what we are saying is that the book is an imporoper means of going about it. How do they get info that nobody else is privy to?
Media people can be scum, not all, but many, take joy in ruining peoples lives--just ask the ex Oklahoma baseball coach !
And people wonder why stars do not want to talk to the press!!
Why is Bonds the only one they want?
The Chronicle has been on Bonds for years because he wont give them the interviews they want--
If you know , as the authors say they do, who the other players are who are using "roids" why not name them all-- the two writers also wont name all their sources
If you are going to do it do the right way--name all the players you are aware of that use 'roids
I also tell you this--look at those two authors-- would you let them date your daughter ?
I also heard them, the authors, in an interview state that they did not write the book for the money are you kidding me--the book sells just by having the name of BARRY BONDS name on it.
I dont think any of us are condoning the use of steroids---what we are saying is that the book is an imporoper means of going about it. How do they get info that nobody else is privy to?
Media people can be scum, not all, but many, take joy in ruining peoples lives--just ask the ex Oklahoma baseball coach !
And people wonder why stars do not want to talk to the press!!
You have got to be kidding me. Ok, I'll play your silly little game...again.
1) Why is Bonds the one they want? He's the most visible , most well-known steroid user in baseball...he's rapidly approaching hallowed records...he's thumbing the public, and his fellow MLB players, in the eye with his B.S. denials and fabrications...that's just a few.
2)If you know , as the authors say they do, who the other players are who are using "roids" why not name them all-- the two writers also wont name all their sources They have irrefutable proof of what drugs Bonds used, and when he used them. It's ironclad enough proof that Bonds won't entertain the thought of legal action against them. The best he can come up is challenging how they got some of the info before it was released to the public..a charge that the Judge basically said was worthless. If they publish the names of other athletes without having that same ironclad proof, then they would be subject to a lawsuit from those people named. If they have irrefutable proof, come out with it...if they don't, then they are wise not to release it.
3) I also tell you this--look at those two authors-- would you let them date your daughter ?Who cares what the authors look like? I don't think Playgirl will be knocking your door down anytime soon. And just for the record, my 4 year old daughter will NEVER date anyone...she told me just this morning that she's never going to leave home..
4)I also heard them, the authors, in an interview state that they did not write the book for the money are you kidding me--the book sells just by having the name of BARRY BONDS name on it. So what. Authors, painters, actors..they all say the same thing. Smart people know they're lying.
5)I dont think any of us are condoning the use of steroids---what we are saying is that the book is an imporoper means of going about it. How do they get info that nobody else is privy to?Baloney. Yeah, they saw Grand Jury testimony before it was released. Is it the first time in history that this has happened? No, and it won't be the last. All of the testimony has now been unsealed and made public record. As for who released the info...for all you know, it may have been someone in Bond's entourage that was tired of listening to his nonsense. Sometimes info comes from the strangest places...
6) Media people can be scum, not all, but many, take joy in ruining peoples lives--just ask the ex Oklahoma baseball coach !ESPN reported what the Coach said during an interview. He said it...they reported it. Do you condone what he said?
7)And people wonder why stars do not want to talk to the press!! Plenty of stars talk to the press.
Again, you're taking the track of blaming everyone East of San Francisco for Barry's problems...with no blame assigned to Barry himself. Barry made the decision to take the HGH, Deca Durabolin, Norbolethone, Testosterone, and everything else he had stashed away in his little mad scientist kit. And again, you need to read up on this **** and expand your knowledge base, since you run showcases and deal with young athletes. It's time to take your head out of the sand.
1) Why is Bonds the one they want? He's the most visible , most well-known steroid user in baseball...he's rapidly approaching hallowed records...he's thumbing the public, and his fellow MLB players, in the eye with his B.S. denials and fabrications...that's just a few.
2)If you know , as the authors say they do, who the other players are who are using "roids" why not name them all-- the two writers also wont name all their sources They have irrefutable proof of what drugs Bonds used, and when he used them. It's ironclad enough proof that Bonds won't entertain the thought of legal action against them. The best he can come up is challenging how they got some of the info before it was released to the public..a charge that the Judge basically said was worthless. If they publish the names of other athletes without having that same ironclad proof, then they would be subject to a lawsuit from those people named. If they have irrefutable proof, come out with it...if they don't, then they are wise not to release it.
3) I also tell you this--look at those two authors-- would you let them date your daughter ?Who cares what the authors look like? I don't think Playgirl will be knocking your door down anytime soon. And just for the record, my 4 year old daughter will NEVER date anyone...she told me just this morning that she's never going to leave home..
4)I also heard them, the authors, in an interview state that they did not write the book for the money are you kidding me--the book sells just by having the name of BARRY BONDS name on it. So what. Authors, painters, actors..they all say the same thing. Smart people know they're lying.
5)I dont think any of us are condoning the use of steroids---what we are saying is that the book is an imporoper means of going about it. How do they get info that nobody else is privy to?Baloney. Yeah, they saw Grand Jury testimony before it was released. Is it the first time in history that this has happened? No, and it won't be the last. All of the testimony has now been unsealed and made public record. As for who released the info...for all you know, it may have been someone in Bond's entourage that was tired of listening to his nonsense. Sometimes info comes from the strangest places...
6) Media people can be scum, not all, but many, take joy in ruining peoples lives--just ask the ex Oklahoma baseball coach !ESPN reported what the Coach said during an interview. He said it...they reported it. Do you condone what he said?
7)And people wonder why stars do not want to talk to the press!! Plenty of stars talk to the press.
Again, you're taking the track of blaming everyone East of San Francisco for Barry's problems...with no blame assigned to Barry himself. Barry made the decision to take the HGH, Deca Durabolin, Norbolethone, Testosterone, and everything else he had stashed away in his little mad scientist kit. And again, you need to read up on this **** and expand your knowledge base, since you run showcases and deal with young athletes. It's time to take your head out of the sand.
seamer
You can live in your world and I in mine---somehow I like mine better because we do not lynch people without solid grounds and I hate to ssay this but I think my mind is a bit more open than yours--- Have a nice day
I wonder where your head is !!!!!
For you to tell me who and what I am is scary--even my mom and dad never did that--why do you think you are better than they are so that you can give me your "advice"?
One other thing--how do you know for a fact that Bonds took all the drugs you claim he did?
Where did you get the "FACTS" to substantiate such a statement-
You can live in your world and I in mine---somehow I like mine better because we do not lynch people without solid grounds and I hate to ssay this but I think my mind is a bit more open than yours--- Have a nice day
I wonder where your head is !!!!!
For you to tell me who and what I am is scary--even my mom and dad never did that--why do you think you are better than they are so that you can give me your "advice"?
One other thing--how do you know for a fact that Bonds took all the drugs you claim he did?
Where did you get the "FACTS" to substantiate such a statement-
So you don't lynch people without solid grounds or judge them superficially, TR....unless, of course, those people are members of the press.
2seamer is spot on --- why would they name any players they are "aware of" who use Vitamin S without proof? They went to press on BB with proof. The Grand Jury testimony and records aren't good enough for you on Bonds, but they're naming names of additional players would be doing it "the right way"? Huh?
2seamer is spot on --- why would they name any players they are "aware of" who use Vitamin S without proof? They went to press on BB with proof. The Grand Jury testimony and records aren't good enough for you on Bonds, but they're naming names of additional players would be doing it "the right way"? Huh?
2Seamer. Right on--best post in the entire string. You are absolutely correct on all counts.
quote:Why is Bonds the only one they want?
Because it is Bonds who is inevitably about to break the all-time HR record which may be the most prestigious record in all of sports.
MLB made their bed and now they get to sleep in it. They saw the writing on the wall in the mid-late nineties but decided to look the other way ($$$). Guess MLB never anticipated Bonds averaging about 45 HRs over the last 10 years of his career which has put them in the embarrassing position that they are today.
You're definitely in your own little world, that's for sure.
"We do not lynch people without solid grounds" Please, give me a break. People get the death penalty on a daily basis with far less evidence than what is present with Bonds. If you don't think that's true, than send some fan mail to Scott Peterson...he's probably lonely, and could use some correspondance from "your world".
With the explicit details of what Barry was taking, when he was taking it, right down to the details of what city he was in...I'm guessing in your world that's not impressive.
He's not suing the authors on the details, because that would entail him taking the stand, taking the oath, and being cross-examined. He doesn't want to take this to court, because then other people get subpoenaed, and testify against him. I'm guessing in your world, that's not impressive, either.
Are you saying that the authors are lying, and the entire Grand Jury investigation was a dream that never happened...because the details are now public record..the facts are there, if you take your head out of wherever it is and look at them.
Looking back in the archives, you've been consistent for the last couple of years on the whole steroid issue. You've blamed the press...authors...Bond's girlfriend...Jose' Canseco's ego...everyone but the guilty party.
You attack anyone that gives you facts and shows you you're wrong. You've proven by your posts that not only do you know nothing about this issue, but you don't care to know.
So, as for my advice to read up on this...you may not care..but I'm sure that other parents might. You're in the business of running showcases for young athletes...the very same young athletes that one day may be at a crossroad as to using steroids or not. The advice given from someone in your position may help sway that kid not to do it.
So...you may not give a rip about steroids...you may not care to learn what's going on with them...and that's your choice. On the flip side, parents have the choice not to pay you money to showcase their son, they can go somewhere else. You definitely wouldn't get any of my money, because I don't agree with your viewpoints. That's the way it works in my world.
By the way, you never answered my question...do you condone what the Oklahoma coach said?
"We do not lynch people without solid grounds" Please, give me a break. People get the death penalty on a daily basis with far less evidence than what is present with Bonds. If you don't think that's true, than send some fan mail to Scott Peterson...he's probably lonely, and could use some correspondance from "your world".
With the explicit details of what Barry was taking, when he was taking it, right down to the details of what city he was in...I'm guessing in your world that's not impressive.
He's not suing the authors on the details, because that would entail him taking the stand, taking the oath, and being cross-examined. He doesn't want to take this to court, because then other people get subpoenaed, and testify against him. I'm guessing in your world, that's not impressive, either.
Are you saying that the authors are lying, and the entire Grand Jury investigation was a dream that never happened...because the details are now public record..the facts are there, if you take your head out of wherever it is and look at them.
Looking back in the archives, you've been consistent for the last couple of years on the whole steroid issue. You've blamed the press...authors...Bond's girlfriend...Jose' Canseco's ego...everyone but the guilty party.
You attack anyone that gives you facts and shows you you're wrong. You've proven by your posts that not only do you know nothing about this issue, but you don't care to know.
So, as for my advice to read up on this...you may not care..but I'm sure that other parents might. You're in the business of running showcases for young athletes...the very same young athletes that one day may be at a crossroad as to using steroids or not. The advice given from someone in your position may help sway that kid not to do it.
So...you may not give a rip about steroids...you may not care to learn what's going on with them...and that's your choice. On the flip side, parents have the choice not to pay you money to showcase their son, they can go somewhere else. You definitely wouldn't get any of my money, because I don't agree with your viewpoints. That's the way it works in my world.
By the way, you never answered my question...do you condone what the Oklahoma coach said?
NYDAD
You back my point--- if he, Bonds, is doing it and they know of others who are doing it as well go after them---but they wont--there is no press in the others--
You back my point--- if he, Bonds, is doing it and they know of others who are doing it as well go after them---but they wont--there is no press in the others--
Just shaking my head in amazement over this thread. 2seamer, Orlando, itsinthegame, et al---it appears that it just doesn't matter what factual and logical arguments you make. TR (I am really stunned by your immovable stance right now) will apparently continue to close his eyes and ears while chanting "LALALALALALALALA" on the subject unless, perhaps, he personally witnesses Barry's indiscretions. Would that be proof enough?? I'm not even sure about that! Remarkable.
I'm not even sure about that! Remarkable.
2Seamer
I truly like how everyone says I get personal and you come and say what you did--here are your answers to your first post:
01-- silly game---only in the minds of minds like yours
02-- WHY IS BONDS THE ONE---all assumptions on your part-- his players have not said a bad word about him have they?
The point is is that he, BONDS, is not the only MLB player involved in this---based on peoples assumptions it could be better than 75 % of the players using "enhancers" which are legal and illegal--think about it --pitchers in the 40's still throwing 90 plus and others winning better than 15 games a year--are they clean? What keeps them going?
03---where do you get this ironclad BS ?--there is nothing ironclad here
04-- The two authors are too strange to even be on my block. They are "dirt diggers' at a paper that is know for being a "dirt digger paper"
05-- Book for Money--- if so do not deny it--
06-- info from strange places-- yea --like in those looking for a cut of the profits
07-- do I condone what the Oklahoma coach said?
That is not the point--the boy and his dad took no offense and it was said to the ESPN people off the record not in an interview--over coffee to to speak---read again what the coach said---funny that the term can be used in comedy standup and pictures by their own with no reprecussions but the coach uses it in a positive manner and his life goes down the tube
08-- and plenty of the stars do not because it all gets twisted and taken out of context
Now the second post:
my little world-- I didnt say that--I said we were in different worlds and I like mine better than yours
Give you a break-- I wont go there because you you are nowhere near the right page in tne book
Blaming-- I have not blamed anyone--you want to see it that way--what I said was this
Bonds has not failed a drug test--we do not know if he even has been given one
If you trust Conseco then you are even worse off than I thought--he has lied his entire career and even tried to run down his wife with his car on a Miami street
My involvement with showcases --- Sir --- watch where you step here-- I have never condoned steroids at any level--- just be very careful
As for me not giving a rip about steroids --show me where I said that--
As for your attitude about me--that is fine but do not speak for others--
Once again this is the USA where people are innocent until proven guilty and you are entitled to your opinion--you think your world is better than mine-- so be it--that is your choice--that is what the USA is all about
What does your money have to do with anything--we are discussing your view and mine-- And people tell me I get personal
Your final line--do I condone what the Oklahoma Coach said--- I have no problem with it but is condone the proper term ?--he said it as a compliment to the player in an everyday vernacular--and the player and his dad agreed.
This sir is why you are in your world and I am in mine--and somehow I like it that way
I truly like how everyone says I get personal and you come and say what you did--here are your answers to your first post:
01-- silly game---only in the minds of minds like yours
02-- WHY IS BONDS THE ONE---all assumptions on your part-- his players have not said a bad word about him have they?
The point is is that he, BONDS, is not the only MLB player involved in this---based on peoples assumptions it could be better than 75 % of the players using "enhancers" which are legal and illegal--think about it --pitchers in the 40's still throwing 90 plus and others winning better than 15 games a year--are they clean? What keeps them going?
03---where do you get this ironclad BS ?--there is nothing ironclad here
04-- The two authors are too strange to even be on my block. They are "dirt diggers' at a paper that is know for being a "dirt digger paper"
05-- Book for Money--- if so do not deny it--
06-- info from strange places-- yea --like in those looking for a cut of the profits
07-- do I condone what the Oklahoma coach said?
That is not the point--the boy and his dad took no offense and it was said to the ESPN people off the record not in an interview--over coffee to to speak---read again what the coach said---funny that the term can be used in comedy standup and pictures by their own with no reprecussions but the coach uses it in a positive manner and his life goes down the tube
08-- and plenty of the stars do not because it all gets twisted and taken out of context
Now the second post:
my little world-- I didnt say that--I said we were in different worlds and I like mine better than yours
Give you a break-- I wont go there because you you are nowhere near the right page in tne book
Blaming-- I have not blamed anyone--you want to see it that way--what I said was this
Bonds has not failed a drug test--we do not know if he even has been given one
If you trust Conseco then you are even worse off than I thought--he has lied his entire career and even tried to run down his wife with his car on a Miami street
My involvement with showcases --- Sir --- watch where you step here-- I have never condoned steroids at any level--- just be very careful
As for me not giving a rip about steroids --show me where I said that--
As for your attitude about me--that is fine but do not speak for others--
Once again this is the USA where people are innocent until proven guilty and you are entitled to your opinion--you think your world is better than mine-- so be it--that is your choice--that is what the USA is all about
What does your money have to do with anything--we are discussing your view and mine-- And people tell me I get personal
Your final line--do I condone what the Oklahoma Coach said--- I have no problem with it but is condone the proper term ?--he said it as a compliment to the player in an everyday vernacular--and the player and his dad agreed.
This sir is why you are in your world and I am in mine--and somehow I like it that way
PAMOM
Have you joined the group that only reads what they want in the posts????
Have you joined the group that only reads what they want in the posts????
A group, TR, that includes you.
Nobody is perfectly objective. We all see the world through our own filters.
In the case of written posts, each one of us puts our own inflection and emphasis on what we read. In the process, some points are ignored, misinterpreted, assimilated, cause a change of view, cause anger, etc. It's the limitation of a message board.
Nobody is perfectly objective. We all see the world through our own filters.
In the case of written posts, each one of us puts our own inflection and emphasis on what we read. In the process, some points are ignored, misinterpreted, assimilated, cause a change of view, cause anger, etc. It's the limitation of a message board.
quote:PAMOM
Have you joined the group that only reads what they want in the posts????
Tom---
Ditto to what Orlando just posted. But I have read between the lines and I still like you anyway.
TR-I commend you for your perserverance in taking a stance that is obviously in the minority on this site and I'm guessing among most baseball fans as well. And even though
I disagree with your opinions on THIS subject I appreciate the fact that you are putting
up a valient effort to defend your position.
HOWEVER, you again make the claim that "Once again this is the USA where people are innocent until proven guilty..". If you witnessed a crime being committed-and you were
100% positive of the identity of the person who committed the crime, but because of a slick
lawyer maybe accusing you of having poor eyesite and not really able to truly identify the
"suspect" and therefore he was acquitted--would that suspect be innocent of the crime?
Or would he be guilty and just not proven in court?
I disagree with your opinions on THIS subject I appreciate the fact that you are putting
up a valient effort to defend your position.
HOWEVER, you again make the claim that "Once again this is the USA where people are innocent until proven guilty..". If you witnessed a crime being committed-and you were
100% positive of the identity of the person who committed the crime, but because of a slick
lawyer maybe accusing you of having poor eyesite and not really able to truly identify the
"suspect" and therefore he was acquitted--would that suspect be innocent of the crime?
Or would he be guilty and just not proven in court?
MOC
I ask once again---
Who has seen?
Who has proved?
What if it was your son/daughter in this situation?
Lets get real here-- he may not be the only player, involved, I am sure he is not , but until proven guilty he is innocent--- why are not pitchers in their 40s who are still throwing 90 plus and winning not being investigated?
I say shake all the trees legally and see what falls out--dont use one player as a sacrificial lamb--which is what is happening---
The bottom line--- Bonds has always been a surly guy, didnt get along with the press--now the press wants to hang him--why not Sheffield---why not Giambi --why not others ?
I ask once again---
Who has seen?
Who has proved?
What if it was your son/daughter in this situation?
Lets get real here-- he may not be the only player, involved, I am sure he is not , but until proven guilty he is innocent--- why are not pitchers in their 40s who are still throwing 90 plus and winning not being investigated?
I say shake all the trees legally and see what falls out--dont use one player as a sacrificial lamb--which is what is happening---
The bottom line--- Bonds has always been a surly guy, didnt get along with the press--now the press wants to hang him--why not Sheffield---why not Giambi --why not others ?
TR......I agree with you on one point...when you said...."Let's get real here".....
The problem is your perception of reality...think most posters, including myself, just find it surprising, and for some, even alarming, as to how you perceive the reality of Barry's situation.....but you are certainly entitled. Likewise we are entitled to our take on the subject....and you can throw everything else into the thread....bad reporters, the MLB, other users, etc., etc....but the subject of this thread is still Barry.....and while we seem to be at an impasse here.....it's not over yet for Barry.
The problem is your perception of reality...think most posters, including myself, just find it surprising, and for some, even alarming, as to how you perceive the reality of Barry's situation.....but you are certainly entitled. Likewise we are entitled to our take on the subject....and you can throw everything else into the thread....bad reporters, the MLB, other users, etc., etc....but the subject of this thread is still Barry.....and while we seem to be at an impasse here.....it's not over yet for Barry.
This thread may need to be renamed 'TR EXPOSED!!!'
If any other player held or were approaching a major record, there would be an outcry for that player to be investigated. What happens (or doesn't happen) with Barry will be a precedent for how the Giambis (who admitted), the Sheffields, et al will be handled. Bonds is the most egregious example; therefore, he is the first one in line.
Investigating Bonds will be difficult enough; how exactly might you suggest every potential user in the MLB be investigated? And who are these post-40 90 + mph pitchers you keep on about, TR, who have shown the kind of jump in performance that Bonds showed at the age of 33?
Investigating Bonds will be difficult enough; how exactly might you suggest every potential user in the MLB be investigated? And who are these post-40 90 + mph pitchers you keep on about, TR, who have shown the kind of jump in performance that Bonds showed at the age of 33?
dbg
I thank you for your insight
Glad to know you are so much more informed and intelligent than this old Italian Man.
None the less I would rather be me than you
Orlando
I said keeps them winning and throwing 90 plus in their 40s--read what I post please
Can we start with Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens-- they would be as suspect as anyone else would they not
And can we go back to Roger Maris and his 61 HR year when had never hit 30 9 or more before or after that year?
Should he also not be suspect according to your line of resasoning ?
I am not saying they do or did but are they not subject to suspicion based on your reasoning?
I thank you for your insight
Glad to know you are so much more informed and intelligent than this old Italian Man.
None the less I would rather be me than you
Orlando
I said keeps them winning and throwing 90 plus in their 40s--read what I post please
Can we start with Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens-- they would be as suspect as anyone else would they not
And can we go back to Roger Maris and his 61 HR year when had never hit 30 9 or more before or after that year?
Should he also not be suspect according to your line of resasoning ?
I am not saying they do or did but are they not subject to suspicion based on your reasoning?
When Maris reported to the Yankees he was told specifically by the GM at the time that he was being hired to swing for the fences. Hitting in front of Mantle didn't hurt him either. These are the reasons his HR total escalated like it did in 1961.
While this discussion could go on and on, apparently until some see a syringe hanging out barry's back side- there are certain fairly well accepted observable factors present with barry that I don't know/recall being present with Maris, Ryan, Clemens (but are with bonds and certain others).
bonds displays a rather obvious change in the size of his skull, which is a side effect with steroid use and as the adult human skull does not typically change size. All one need do is look at that giant balloon head (his ego aside).
bonds physical stature has otherwise ballooned in an inordinate fashion and in an inordinately small amount of time. don't recall any such changes in Ryan, Clemens, Maris.....(or most players approaching 40 and the twilight of their careers).
bonds numbers in recent years are not consistent with the rest of his career- having never hit 50 before leaping to 73-
As far as Maris, I think he simply benefited from having Mantle in the lineup and Mantle matching him homer for homer until injured and this was the first expansion year with some watered down pitching.
While I'd certainly like to see a full look at this (McGwire, Sosa and quite a few others), the conduct of others is not relevant as to what bonds did or did not do or may continue to do as he is active still unlike the deceased Mr. Maris or retired McGwire or Sosa.
and bonds makes no direct denials. His reponses have been that there are bigger problems in the world, that no reporter should question him unless their "house" is completely clean and most recently his suit directed to how the info on him was obtained NOT as to its accuracy.
bonds displays a rather obvious change in the size of his skull, which is a side effect with steroid use and as the adult human skull does not typically change size. All one need do is look at that giant balloon head (his ego aside).
bonds physical stature has otherwise ballooned in an inordinate fashion and in an inordinately small amount of time. don't recall any such changes in Ryan, Clemens, Maris.....(or most players approaching 40 and the twilight of their careers).
bonds numbers in recent years are not consistent with the rest of his career- having never hit 50 before leaping to 73-
As far as Maris, I think he simply benefited from having Mantle in the lineup and Mantle matching him homer for homer until injured and this was the first expansion year with some watered down pitching.
While I'd certainly like to see a full look at this (McGwire, Sosa and quite a few others), the conduct of others is not relevant as to what bonds did or did not do or may continue to do as he is active still unlike the deceased Mr. Maris or retired McGwire or Sosa.
and bonds makes no direct denials. His reponses have been that there are bigger problems in the world, that no reporter should question him unless their "house" is completely clean and most recently his suit directed to how the info on him was obtained NOT as to its accuracy.
This is my take for what it is worth.
I do not think that in any posts about Barry that TR has supported use of steroids. In fact on many occassions he has spoken out against them, same as Beenthere and Ramrod. I don't remember TR ever saying that Bonds DID or DIDN'T use them. You all assume he thinks he doesn't because of his opinions.
I agree with most here regarding Bonds. But when someone takes this discussion and turns it into a personal vendetta making statements that have nothing to do with opinions, that's wrong.
TR and I have had differences, we don't see eye to eye on lots of issues. I don't even think he likes me much. He certainly does not need defending. I don't care one way or the other how he feels about Barry. But the comment on his opinions relating to business is just wrong. It has nothing to do with the discussion here.
Sometimes we all have to learn to just think before we post.
Debating opinions is good, getting personal in public is not.
JMO.
I do not think that in any posts about Barry that TR has supported use of steroids. In fact on many occassions he has spoken out against them, same as Beenthere and Ramrod. I don't remember TR ever saying that Bonds DID or DIDN'T use them. You all assume he thinks he doesn't because of his opinions.
I agree with most here regarding Bonds. But when someone takes this discussion and turns it into a personal vendetta making statements that have nothing to do with opinions, that's wrong.
TR and I have had differences, we don't see eye to eye on lots of issues. I don't even think he likes me much. He certainly does not need defending. I don't care one way or the other how he feels about Barry. But the comment on his opinions relating to business is just wrong. It has nothing to do with the discussion here.
Sometimes we all have to learn to just think before we post.
Debating opinions is good, getting personal in public is not.
JMO.
I do read what you post, Sunshine; perhaps you will extend me the same courtesy.
You throw out examples of longevity and breakout years to attempt to show that such things occur in baseball. Well, yes, by golly, they do.
MY reasoning on Bonds has been as follows, posted on March 13, noting that his performance took a significant jump some years after a player's peak would be expected, with that 33 yrs + radical improvement maintained until his injury-shortened 2005 season. It also refers to body changes:
Maris hit his 61 at the age of 26 (ohmygosh! "at an age when one would expect him to be at his peak")
Clemens & Nolan's stats show the kind of consistency one might expect from effective pitchers; and only the body changes one might expect with middle age. Oh, and you missed out naming Satchel Paige....
Maris, over-40 pitchers ---- that's YOUR line of reasoning. It has certainly not been displayed in my posts.
You throw out examples of longevity and breakout years to attempt to show that such things occur in baseball. Well, yes, by golly, they do.
MY reasoning on Bonds has been as follows, posted on March 13, noting that his performance took a significant jump some years after a player's peak would be expected, with that 33 yrs + radical improvement maintained until his injury-shortened 2005 season. It also refers to body changes:
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
How do the "wait for the facts" folk explain the changes in Bonds' body (particularly the cobras around his forearms) at the age of 33? Or the increase in HR:AB from a high of 1:12 when he was 27 (an age one would expect him to be at his peak), to 1:9, steady, from 33 - 39? (Do keep in mind the decline in the intervening years...1:15)?
Maris hit his 61 at the age of 26 (ohmygosh! "at an age when one would expect him to be at his peak")
Clemens & Nolan's stats show the kind of consistency one might expect from effective pitchers; and only the body changes one might expect with middle age. Oh, and you missed out naming Satchel Paige....
Maris, over-40 pitchers ---- that's YOUR line of reasoning. It has certainly not been displayed in my posts.
TPM....with all do respect this is the second time I've read where you have cautioned us to think before we post...might I ask....why then are you defending TR, et al?
Certainly if one is going to post against popular opinion, common sense, and get personal in the process......well....it's going to come back at you......sorry, but this is a message board, open to the public....and this stuff happens.
Assumptions aside....I think the majority of the posts on this thread have been thoughtful and acceptable....
....and if not....MN-Mom will let us know otherwise. JMO
Certainly if one is going to post against popular opinion, common sense, and get personal in the process......well....it's going to come back at you......sorry, but this is a message board, open to the public....and this stuff happens.
Assumptions aside....I think the majority of the posts on this thread have been thoughtful and acceptable....
....and if not....MN-Mom will let us know otherwise. JMO
How did I know you would be the first to respond.
If you read carefully I was not defending TR, he doesn't need me coming to his defense. I am entitled to opinions as well as anyone. I don't think I need anyone following me around reminding me about what I have posted, thank you.
Posting against popular opinion doesn't entitle others to bring up things that don't belong.
I did say JMO.
You or some others may not understand, that's ok. But I think there are a lot of people here who know when not to post certain things and others who don't think, I have on occassion done that.
Regardless of this being a message board, I think many of us know each other and should just respect that it IS a public message board.
This has nothing really to do with the topic of Bonds Exposed, so carry on.........
If you read carefully I was not defending TR, he doesn't need me coming to his defense. I am entitled to opinions as well as anyone. I don't think I need anyone following me around reminding me about what I have posted, thank you.
Posting against popular opinion doesn't entitle others to bring up things that don't belong.
I did say JMO.
You or some others may not understand, that's ok. But I think there are a lot of people here who know when not to post certain things and others who don't think, I have on occassion done that.
Regardless of this being a message board, I think many of us know each other and should just respect that it IS a public message board.
This has nothing really to do with the topic of Bonds Exposed, so carry on.........
Gosh TPM......you seem upset.... I'm not following you around...honest....it's just that you seem to be everywhere....but....that's a good thing. I've been contributing to this thread a lot.....so....you shouldn't be too surprised that I'm posting.....but....it's good you're here too.....what would this board do without your wisdom and experience....and I don't know how you knew I'd be the first to respond...unless you had that in your mind when you posted? In any event....
Thanks for telling us we can carry on...we shall....and I assure you...I always try to be sensitive and careful about what I say......I'm listening TPM!
Thanks for telling us we can carry on...we shall....and I assure you...I always try to be sensitive and careful about what I say......I'm listening TPM!
Tr..I've got to hand it to you...you're consistently inconsistent. You may not agree, but your comments definitely may impact how people view you and your business. Like it or not, that's reality.
You're in the business of providing a benefit for kids wanting a chance to play college ball. These are kids that need info on hot button topics like this...info that could save their life or save their career. While you've posted at times that you are personally opposed to steroid use, you follow it up with totally ridiculous comments, comparing testosterone cream to arthritis balm, steroids to eye drops, Deca Durabolin to good eating and workout habits, blaming Bonds girlfreind for his "problems", defending a College coach that referred to one of his players with a derogatory racial term (which, contrary to that nonsense you posted, the player and the father were highly insulted by what he said)...and you don't have a problem with it...
So yes, your poorly thought out comments can affect you...that's not getting personal..that's reality. I don't care if you're a Kennedy Democrat, a Bush Republican, a vegetarian, or a Jehovah's witness...that's getting personal. When you make halfbaked comments on racism, when you show no inclination to learn information that should be presented to HS kids trying to play college ball, and when you consistently for 2 years running regurgitate the same half baked defense of a guy that has ironclad proof of guilt, then I'd think it to be very realistic that a parent would question dealing with you when you aren't the only game in town. That's not getting personal...that's reality.
So, lets try this again. What part of the evidence showing what Bonds was taking, and when he was taking it, do you not grasp? Since he's not disputing the details of what he did and when he did it, what about that don't you get?
You're in the business of providing a benefit for kids wanting a chance to play college ball. These are kids that need info on hot button topics like this...info that could save their life or save their career. While you've posted at times that you are personally opposed to steroid use, you follow it up with totally ridiculous comments, comparing testosterone cream to arthritis balm, steroids to eye drops, Deca Durabolin to good eating and workout habits, blaming Bonds girlfreind for his "problems", defending a College coach that referred to one of his players with a derogatory racial term (which, contrary to that nonsense you posted, the player and the father were highly insulted by what he said)...and you don't have a problem with it...
So yes, your poorly thought out comments can affect you...that's not getting personal..that's reality. I don't care if you're a Kennedy Democrat, a Bush Republican, a vegetarian, or a Jehovah's witness...that's getting personal. When you make halfbaked comments on racism, when you show no inclination to learn information that should be presented to HS kids trying to play college ball, and when you consistently for 2 years running regurgitate the same half baked defense of a guy that has ironclad proof of guilt, then I'd think it to be very realistic that a parent would question dealing with you when you aren't the only game in town. That's not getting personal...that's reality.
So, lets try this again. What part of the evidence showing what Bonds was taking, and when he was taking it, do you not grasp? Since he's not disputing the details of what he did and when he did it, what about that don't you get?