baseballdad
I ask that you read what I said-- it suppposedly causes rage which make it ironic that Bonds has more patience and deliberation at the plate than any other I have ever seen
Frequently is not regularly
As for the same efeect on every person who uses them--I do not think enough individual have come forward to admit to use and submit to lengthy testing--- this is the major problem--there is not enough actual knowledge regarding the matter--
TR, you may very well be older that me by a few
soo, with all due respect if you want to keep up with the discussion you need to be able to discern legit points of contention from - - -
wit, sarcasm, and humor ... like someone "poking" fun at barry's butt
soo, with all due respect if you want to keep up with the discussion you need to be able to discern legit points of contention from - - -
wit, sarcasm, and humor ... like someone "poking" fun at barry's butt
Chairman
Am I on trial here--"legal points of contention"
I am not a lawyer-- do I need to get one?
Am I on trial here--"legal points of contention"
I am not a lawyer-- do I need to get one?
TR...
I'm thoroughly enjoying you "flapping" in the wind!
lololol
I'm out of the "foxhole" and gathering facts. Will respond when someone gets indicted.
Enough from me, already.
I'm thoroughly enjoying you "flapping" in the wind!
lololol
I'm out of the "foxhole" and gathering facts. Will respond when someone gets indicted.
Enough from me, already.
BEEN
if you leave the foxhole who do I have ---Cleveland Dad says he will be there so I guess I am fine
if you leave the foxhole who do I have ---Cleveland Dad says he will be there so I guess I am fine
TR says:
umm ... reading at a 5th grade level would be a start, can CD tutor?quote:Am I on trial here--"legal points of contention" ...
I am not a lawyer -- do I need to get one?
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
since no baseball players have admitted to taking steroids
Ken Caminiti & Jose Canseco have both admitted to using steroids.
dbg says:
umm, please TR cut some slack ... he would not be aware of that if someone didn't read it to him, OR, it wasn't published in VERY, VERY LARGE PRINT
quote:Ken Caminiti & Jose Canseco have both admitted to using steroids.
umm, please TR cut some slack ... he would not be aware of that if someone didn't read it to him, OR, it wasn't published in VERY, VERY LARGE PRINT
Everybodys getting a little (cantankerous).
I had to look that word up in the Dictionary!!
I really don't care what anybody injects are rubs on there Butt.
But when it effects what happens to some Player or Players thats playing the Game Clean. Then I have a problem.
MLB, Owners, Players Assoc., And the Players That were Dirty Are Turned a Blind Eye To what was Happening in baseball.
Need to Apologize to those Players That had and have, Honesty, Loyalty, Integrity, A since of Self Worth.
They didn't Feel they needed to take the LOW road to feel like they where successful.
Cheating at a game to Win.
Is a Hollow Victory.
All People responsible in MLB, Need to take this Opportunity
To apologize to the Fans, and to The Young Players Growing up.
And then put it Behind Us. PLEASE. the EH
I had to look that word up in the Dictionary!!
I really don't care what anybody injects are rubs on there Butt.
But when it effects what happens to some Player or Players thats playing the Game Clean. Then I have a problem.
MLB, Owners, Players Assoc., And the Players That were Dirty Are Turned a Blind Eye To what was Happening in baseball.
Need to Apologize to those Players That had and have, Honesty, Loyalty, Integrity, A since of Self Worth.
They didn't Feel they needed to take the LOW road to feel like they where successful.
Cheating at a game to Win.
Is a Hollow Victory.
All People responsible in MLB, Need to take this Opportunity
To apologize to the Fans, and to The Young Players Growing up.
And then put it Behind Us. PLEASE. the EH
I'll represent TR, pro bono. That way I can NEVER put him on the stand in the Bonds matter!!!
It will take some time for me to reconcile that frequently is a long ride from regularly...
I'm adding something - while there has not been an extensive study specifically on baseball players, there is tons of intelligence on steroid use and blood doping in athletics that goes back decades.
It will take some time for me to reconcile that frequently is a long ride from regularly...
I'm adding something - while there has not been an extensive study specifically on baseball players, there is tons of intelligence on steroid use and blood doping in athletics that goes back decades.
I googled "effects of steroids baseball" (actually, it was earlier today and I don't remember the exact words I used) and came up with a very disconcerting list, given that they were in order of hits.
I got to the third page before I came across studies and user reports. The previous 2+ pages were sites that sold steroids & HGH.
Users (baseball players --- not, obviously, pros) reported more acute eyesight, increase in strength, a general feeling of well being and invincibility. They felt they were more aggressive at the plate, specifically mentioning increased bat speed and pitch selection. Increased foot speed was also mentioned. Anger problems were part of the off-cycle. The study stated that all the results reported by the players were not scientifically linked to the steroids, but the players felt that they were; if they believe the substances improved their skills and their skills showed improvement, the psychological effect made it so, much as one might teach a young player to visualize.
One study pointed out that the steroids were used by players who already had talent and were being used to enhance that base; they were not being taken to "create" players.
I got to the third page before I came across studies and user reports. The previous 2+ pages were sites that sold steroids & HGH.
Users (baseball players --- not, obviously, pros) reported more acute eyesight, increase in strength, a general feeling of well being and invincibility. They felt they were more aggressive at the plate, specifically mentioning increased bat speed and pitch selection. Increased foot speed was also mentioned. Anger problems were part of the off-cycle. The study stated that all the results reported by the players were not scientifically linked to the steroids, but the players felt that they were; if they believe the substances improved their skills and their skills showed improvement, the psychological effect made it so, much as one might teach a young player to visualize.
One study pointed out that the steroids were used by players who already had talent and were being used to enhance that base; they were not being taken to "create" players.
Hate to keep going here Orlando, but pitchers are players too. Any info on how relievers who suddenly began to hit 96-98 felt.
Most of those guys are back to 91-93 these days.
Point being we only hear about hitters when it has been discussed (not proven) that many pitchers may have been juicing it up as well.
Most of those guys are back to 91-93 these days.
Point being we only hear about hitters when it has been discussed (not proven) that many pitchers may have been juicing it up as well.
Pitchers juicing would seem logical as well, and they might even benefit more from the psychological advantages --- invincibility, aggression, feelings of well-being. It's a massive problem.
We could be at an interesting developmental stage of our game. Should MLB be able to police the problem, the Arm and Hammer game of the last 15-18 years may start to to become less of a factor. This issue being spotlighted now, in conjuction with the aspects of the game displayed in the WBC by the Latin and Far East teams --- the enthusiasm and joy, the value of solid D, the emphasis on the fundamentals, and the crafty pitching (as distinct from overpowering) --- could have a real impact on the way MLB teams are built and play. I know I've missed baserunning as an important factor in MLB, and cannot understand why a throw like Winn's in the game against Japan comes off the arm of a man paid to play!
We could be at an interesting developmental stage of our game. Should MLB be able to police the problem, the Arm and Hammer game of the last 15-18 years may start to to become less of a factor. This issue being spotlighted now, in conjuction with the aspects of the game displayed in the WBC by the Latin and Far East teams --- the enthusiasm and joy, the value of solid D, the emphasis on the fundamentals, and the crafty pitching (as distinct from overpowering) --- could have a real impact on the way MLB teams are built and play. I know I've missed baserunning as an important factor in MLB, and cannot understand why a throw like Winn's in the game against Japan comes off the arm of a man paid to play!
quote:2SEAMER
This is for you and you only to answer--what makes you think you know so much about me and my thinking on this topic--perhaps I know more than you on the subjecxt--perhaps I believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty
-- perhaps I do not believe all the written word, especially from writers who like to write "novels" for the money they will get in return
It may frost you but perhaps, just maybe perhaps, I know some things you do not know.
Like I said before I do not know everything but what I do know I sure of--and I am not a CHAIRMAN -- I am just an elderly Italian Baseball Fan who may even be older and more experienced than a CHAIRMAN
TRhit
(1) I know your thinking on the subject because you've kept the same point of view for 2 years.
(2) You don't know more on the subject, two years of posts on the topic proves it.
(3) How much proof do you want? The authors have the Grand Jury testimony that has been unsealed and made public record. The evidence is specific as to exactly what drugs he was taking, the schedule that he took them on, the charts that show his schedule, and bloodwork results that show a testosterone level in a 40 year old that would be high for a teenager in the back seat of Daddie's car with his girlfriend on prom night. If Bonds was innocent, he wouldn't be dressing like Paula Abdul, he'd be getting an injunction against Sports Illustrated and the authors. Up to the year the report shows he started steroids, his career BA was .288, after he started it rose to .319. His yearly HR avg. rose from 34 before the juice to 47 after. His head has grown so big from the HGH that he can't fit a laundry basket over it.
What proof do you want? Scott Peterson's on Death Row for killing his wife and unborn child, and there isn't a shred of evidence proving he did it. I believe he did it...the jury believes he did it...all based on circumstantial evidence. There's more solid evidence that Bonds has cheated, just based on what's been released so far...but that's not enough?(4) Since you have this hangup about the authors making money from the book, if the writers and investigators had done this for free, would it make you feel better? How about the prosecutors in the Grand Jury? They were paid. How about the legal staff that assembled the evidence against Balco? They have to make a living too.
None of your arguments hold water, and you just keep digging that foxhole deeper and deeper...
quote:Baseballdad
Do you know for a fact that the cheeks are where they take the shots ?
Another note to think about: since no baseball players have admitted to taking steroids and gone thru tests to show what 'roids does and does not do for them how can you, any of you, say what happens as a final result of taking the "roids". It is only what you read.
Is it not possible that "roids" can give different results in each individual who uses them?
I hear all this about eye hand coordination in hitting being enhanced by 'roids--who were the hitters they tested before and after using the 'roids to get these supposed test results?
Again we are back to suppositions not facts are we not ?
Be back later--time to prep dinner
TRhit
Injectable steroids go deep intramuscularly, usually the gluteal (butt), quad, or deltoid muscle.
TR, with that circuitous logic you used, you've outdone yourself at last. Why, in your opinion, would it be statistically significant to test only baseball players to see what reaction they would have? If the steroid in question was found statistically, for example, in 100% of the people tested to increase eyesight and hand eye coordination, what difference would it make if you tested a plumber or a Right Fielder?
Any substance has the potential to affect different people differently. That said, if one person has an increase of 50% in vision and coordination, another has an increase of 25%, another is 100%, and a fourth is 15%...they all increased, albeit at different levels.
But of course, you knew that...
Again, for the umpteenth time, steroids won't enable a 50 yr. old couch potato that never played the game to sign a free-agent deal tomorrow with the Yankees. Steroids won't enable a jacka#@ to win the Kentucky Derby. What they can do to a talented player if he takes the right mix is increase eyesight, improve already good hand/eye coordination, increase batspeed, and increase the distance he can hit the ball.
No supposition...fact.
This entire thread is rather pathetic. The facts have been made public and it matters little what a few stubborn people believe or refuse to believe.
Barry Bonds used steroids and he is a cheater.
Shame on you guys that continue to defend Bonds on a message board that young athletes frequent. Especially those of you that have been so outspoken about kids possibly reading certain content in the Mens Forum.
Barry Bonds used steroids and he is a cheater.
Shame on you guys that continue to defend Bonds on a message board that young athletes frequent. Especially those of you that have been so outspoken about kids possibly reading certain content in the Mens Forum.
Saw on ESPN tonight Bond's now plans to sue. What a mess for the people involved and baseball in general.
What's interesting is that Bonds is not bringing suit for libel.....rather he wants contempt charges brought against the writers for using illegally obtained information....
One would think he'd sue for libel.....no?
One would think he'd sue for libel.....no?
DBAT
Again I say that the man has not been proved guilty---it is all assumption--so dont say "shame on you guys" because in this country you are innocent until proven guilty
Now that the book is out and it is not excerpts being read watch how quickly the fur flies regarding all the "supposed users"
Again I say that the man has not been proved guilty---it is all assumption--so dont say "shame on you guys" because in this country you are innocent until proven guilty
Now that the book is out and it is not excerpts being read watch how quickly the fur flies regarding all the "supposed users"
I've seen this quoted a number of times from numerous members of this site and I think it needs to be clarified.
"He's innocent until proven guilty."
No-He's either innocent or guilty and "lack of evidence" does not change that. Just because it hasn't been proven in court doesn't mean he didn't use.
This site is full of opinions and is NOT a court of law and everyone is entitled to their
opinion. Just like the woman who was a Clinton supporter and THEN when Clinton admitted
his indiscretion she still would not accept it there are those who have their minds made
up and nothing's going to change it.
It sure is interesting to see the arguments on both sides.
"He's innocent until proven guilty."
No-He's either innocent or guilty and "lack of evidence" does not change that. Just because it hasn't been proven in court doesn't mean he didn't use.
This site is full of opinions and is NOT a court of law and everyone is entitled to their
opinion. Just like the woman who was a Clinton supporter and THEN when Clinton admitted
his indiscretion she still would not accept it there are those who have their minds made
up and nothing's going to change it.
It sure is interesting to see the arguments on both sides.
MOC
Do you know for a fact that he used?
Do you know for a fact that he used?
Good point TR......and yes, even though you didn't ask me....all the facts are in....and I believe them. The interesting thing is that the litagation Bonds is bringing against the writers is not challenging their facts....rather he is challenging the means and methods they used to get them. Don't you find that a little disconcerting? In other words TR.....he is not challenging the facts.....just the means they were obtained......
Of course it could be considered a smart PR move.......if people don't read the fine print.....they might think Bonds is taking on the writers for libel......even the report out of MLB omitted that detail......
Looked up "fact" in the dictionary.....part of the definition is...."reliable information".....to me if Bonds is not going after the writer's facts....I'm going to give them credit for having reliable information.
Of course it could be considered a smart PR move.......if people don't read the fine print.....they might think Bonds is taking on the writers for libel......even the report out of MLB omitted that detail......
Looked up "fact" in the dictionary.....part of the definition is...."reliable information".....to me if Bonds is not going after the writer's facts....I'm going to give them credit for having reliable information.
Very perceptive LadyNmom!
Let's not have Bond's case become another perception is reality joke...facts matter...all the time!
Thanks for keeping us alert LadyNmom.
Let's not have Bond's case become another perception is reality joke...facts matter...all the time!
Thanks for keeping us alert LadyNmom.
"MOC
Do you know for a fact that he used?
TRhit"
No-never said I did. Do you know for a fact that he's innocent? You said he's innocent
until proven guilty.
I said he's either innocent or guilty regardless of whether it can be proven.
Are you saying if it is never proven in a court of law THEN Bonds NEVER used steroids?
OR are you saying that people should not have opinions about anything unless a judge
and/or jury decide it?
To clarify what I said in my original post-He is not "innocent" he is to be "ASSUMED innocent" only for court proceedings, not the HSBBWeb.
Do you know for a fact that he used?
TRhit"
No-never said I did. Do you know for a fact that he's innocent? You said he's innocent
until proven guilty.
I said he's either innocent or guilty regardless of whether it can be proven.
Are you saying if it is never proven in a court of law THEN Bonds NEVER used steroids?
OR are you saying that people should not have opinions about anything unless a judge
and/or jury decide it?
To clarify what I said in my original post-He is not "innocent" he is to be "ASSUMED innocent" only for court proceedings, not the HSBBWeb.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
DBAT
Again I say that the man has not been proved guilty---it is all assumption--so dont say "shame on you guys" because in this country you are innocent until proven guilty
Now that the book is out and it is not excerpts being read watch how quickly the fur flies regarding all the "supposed users"
It is not an assumption. He admitted to a grand jury that he used steroids.He just thought it was flaxseed oil.
Bonds admitted that he used. He claims that he didn't know that the "clear" and the "cream" were steroids.
Perhaps someone can answer this for me --- I have used "balms" and steroids for arthritis--is this the same sort of steroids the "cream and clear" are ?
Is using a "salve" as a rub on the affected area the same as injecting?
How many kids do you know that use pain killers and anti infammatories before a game?
I want to hear facts folks not assumptions --I know what my physicians have told me
Is using a "salve" as a rub on the affected area the same as injecting?
How many kids do you know that use pain killers and anti infammatories before a game?
I want to hear facts folks not assumptions --I know what my physicians have told me
Having just served on a criminal jury this thread is a lot like deliberations. Some people just have a very hard time discerning "reasonable doubt" from "possible doubt"
The truth of the matter is most felons in this country are convicted on the basis of circumstantial evidence. A smoking gun is not necessary to find someone guilty beyhond a reasonable doubt. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck you can be fairly certain it's a duck.
Unless it is goose !
A goose that is cooked!
I was fooled by initial tv report. Saw "Bonds to sue" headline on screen but had volume down.
Should have known it wasn't related to the facts reported.
A number of guys were using - a travesty that it was allowed to happen but baseball needs to just let it go and move on.
Should have known it wasn't related to the facts reported.
A number of guys were using - a travesty that it was allowed to happen but baseball needs to just let it go and move on.
denisr400:
I respectfully disagree with you.
If they are serious about correcting the problem and they are serious about the health of their game then baseball needs to seize the moment and strike out at this damaging scourge now...they have a huge opportunity to do good...here and now!
I respectfully disagree with you.
If they are serious about correcting the problem and they are serious about the health of their game then baseball needs to seize the moment and strike out at this damaging scourge now...they have a huge opportunity to do good...here and now!
got - only meant move on in terms of investigating the guys who used in the past.
Going forward - if they were really serious about it they'd have olympic type testing and draw blood. They aren't going to get the guys using HGH under current system.
I just don't see the benefit of years and years of investigations & legal fights. The investigated players will be mostly retired - they won't suspend active guys for past usage - and there will be no asterisks in record book.
Going forward - if they were really serious about it they'd have olympic type testing and draw blood. They aren't going to get the guys using HGH under current system.
I just don't see the benefit of years and years of investigations & legal fights. The investigated players will be mostly retired - they won't suspend active guys for past usage - and there will be no asterisks in record book.
denisr400:
Respectfully I agree. Good points.
The real concern is the present and the future. The health of our athletes and the health of the integrity of the game are both a top priority for protection and preservation.
Respectfully I agree. Good points.
The real concern is the present and the future. The health of our athletes and the health of the integrity of the game are both a top priority for protection and preservation.
First, to answer a question above, the "cream" is just that, a steroid cream/balm product. The "clear" is a liquid taken orally (or I presume could be injected). Bonds has admitted to taking both but thought the cream was an arthritis balm and that the clear was flaxseed oil (darn those flaxes must be big)
As far as little barry suing- his suit is not for libel or slander, it's against the reporters and I beleive their publishing company for essentially violating the grand jury processes and improperly obtaining records (note he does not dispute content or allegations, but how they got the info).
A judge today has denied an application for a temporary restraining order which little barry sought so as to stop the book's publication/distribution/sale.
The Judge denied the request stating that he sees little liklihood of any success to barry's suit (a grounds for obtaining a restraining order/injunction is that the applicant must show the liklihood that their suit will ultimately prevail).
To this end, one would presume that bonds cannot prevail if for no other reason than he would not seem to have any "standing" to bring such a suit i.e. he is not the proper party to complain about how the grand jury process was used/abused by these reporters-that would be for the government to do, not little barry.
The reporters, their paper and publishers are sticking by their guns and several constitutional lawyers consulted have essentially called bonds a fool for even attempting this legal action. Once again, IMO the huge point is no attack on the content/allegations, just against the process.
barry strikes out..............
As far as little barry suing- his suit is not for libel or slander, it's against the reporters and I beleive their publishing company for essentially violating the grand jury processes and improperly obtaining records (note he does not dispute content or allegations, but how they got the info).
A judge today has denied an application for a temporary restraining order which little barry sought so as to stop the book's publication/distribution/sale.
The Judge denied the request stating that he sees little liklihood of any success to barry's suit (a grounds for obtaining a restraining order/injunction is that the applicant must show the liklihood that their suit will ultimately prevail).
To this end, one would presume that bonds cannot prevail if for no other reason than he would not seem to have any "standing" to bring such a suit i.e. he is not the proper party to complain about how the grand jury process was used/abused by these reporters-that would be for the government to do, not little barry.
The reporters, their paper and publishers are sticking by their guns and several constitutional lawyers consulted have essentially called bonds a fool for even attempting this legal action. Once again, IMO the huge point is no attack on the content/allegations, just against the process.
barry strikes out..............
quote:Perhaps someone can answer this for me --- I have used "balms" and steroids for arthritis--is this the same sort of steroids the "cream and clear" are ?
Is using a "salve" as a rub on the affected area the same as injecting?
How many kids do you know that use pain killers and anti infammatories before a game?
I want to hear facts folks not assumptions --I know what my physicians have told me
TRhit
The "Clear" is Norbolethone...an anabolic steroid that was formulated, but never released to the public. It was undetectable in testing, because it wasn't tested for...you can't test for what you don't know exists. It's a liquid taken sublingual...under the tongue...put the drops there with a dropper or syringe. You don't drink it...you don't drizzle it on salad...you don't combine it with balsamic vinegar for a refreshing flaxseed vinegrette...
The "Cream" is a combination of Epitestosterone and Testosterone absorbed through the skin. It's put on a small area, ideally under a piece of barrier paper to aid in absorption. If any of you know someone that uses nitroglycerin paste...same principle. You can put in on an area 1 inch long and 1/2 inch wide. It's not slathered around like BenGay or Atomic Bomb. For a lifetime athlete like Bonds to even think it's an arthritis balm is laughable...for someone to actually believe him is beyond sad. BenGay doesn't make your head swell like a Macy's Day Balloon.
TR...the testimony shows Bonds as using sublingual Norbolethone, transdermal Testosterone, numerous intramuscularly injected steroids, including one used on cattle, and subcutaneously injected insulin and Human Growth Hormone. I'm not sure why you're lumping all of this in with kids taking Tylenol, Motrin, or Aleve before a game...care to explain your rationale?
2seamer:
Classic! Chuckled so hard while reading this I launched half a Frosted Mini-Wheats across the kitchen table and clear into the laundry room! As it states on the box..."Bite Size...a chuckle baked into every bite!"
You don't work in Kellogg's marketing department do you?
Your post really perked up my breakfast...thanks!
quote:Originally posted by 2seamer:
...you don't drizzle it on salad...you don't combine it with balsamic vinegar for a refreshing flaxseed vinegrette...
Classic! Chuckled so hard while reading this I launched half a Frosted Mini-Wheats across the kitchen table and clear into the laundry room! As it states on the box..."Bite Size...a chuckle baked into every bite!"
You don't work in Kellogg's marketing department do you?
Your post really perked up my breakfast...thanks!
2 Seamer
They are all addictive when overused
May I ask where your steroid experise comes from?
Are you a doctor?
As I see it the problem with steroids is that nobody knows the full situation where side effects are concerned--not enough testing has been done to say positive or negative--my own doctors cannot tell me the full story--why? very simple-- not enough users have come forward to be tested
We seem to have a lot of posters here who are "experts" on the internet---if this is so why cant doctors find what you find--re: alzado--there is not true proof that his tumor was steroid induced--are you all aware of that?
They are all addictive when overused
May I ask where your steroid experise comes from?
Are you a doctor?
As I see it the problem with steroids is that nobody knows the full situation where side effects are concerned--not enough testing has been done to say positive or negative--my own doctors cannot tell me the full story--why? very simple-- not enough users have come forward to be tested
We seem to have a lot of posters here who are "experts" on the internet---if this is so why cant doctors find what you find--re: alzado--there is not true proof that his tumor was steroid induced--are you all aware of that?
quote:They are all addictive when overused
May I ask where your steroid experise comes from?
Are you a doctor?
As I see it the problem with steroids is that nobody knows the full situation where side effects are concerned--not enough testing has been done to say positive or negative--my own doctors cannot tell me the full story--why? very simple-- not enough users have come forward to be tested
We seem to have a lot of posters here who are "experts" on the internet---if this is so why cant doctors find what you find--re: alzado--there is not true proof that his tumor was steroid induced--are you all aware of that?
TRhit
Anything is addictive if overused..fried chicken...bourbon....tylenol...heroin...again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Ther's psychological and physical addiction.
My "steroid expertise" comes from being in the medical field, having a kid playing college ball, knowing that steroids are a problem in college ball, and doing research. Since you're in the business of dealing with showcasing kids for college ball, it may behoove you to do a little research yourself, because the response you give a kid that's on the verge of making a life changing decision could literally save his career, or his life.
There is plenty of research done that shows positive and negative side effects of steroid use, and the research is still ongoing. If your doctors tell you that they don't have all of the answers, the answer is simple..talk to a different doctor. A Family medicine MD or a Cardiologist can't give current, up to date info out on steroids, because they don't specialize in it.
As for Alzado...again, what's your point? There are many tumors and cancers, as well as other physical problems, that can't be pinpointed to one specific cause. There's evidence that what he was taking could cause his problem...he had the problem....he died. If one kid is scared away from taking that **** because he believes that Alzado died as a result of it...it's worth it.