BONDS EXPOSED!!!

Let's not get too high on the pulpit. If you are serving as a jurist you are instructed by the judge not to speak with anyone on the facts of the case. If you are called to testify and you are dismissed, you are free to speak of your testimony (First Amendment of the Constitution). These writers were after facts and obtained many from witnesses who already appeared before the GJ. Good reporting tactic.

Amen, Baseballdad. I've always had a problem with the idea of Secret Grand Juries (with exceedingly few exceptions, such as actual --- not politiican-defined --- national security) in a free society where open courts are supposed to be the bedrock of the judicial system; it's way too close to government censorship.

Perhaps the complaints about the manner in which the reporters got their information are more along the line of "shooting the messenger".

Orlando, your really get it.The motivation behind instructing jurors not to discuss what they hear is to attempt to keep them from being influenced by the opinions of others and only decide on the facts as presented while they serve. You see on this board that lots of people have thoughts they like to share, often generated from emotion and not fact-based. People who like Bonds defend him. Our judicial system doesn't want opinions and outside discussion clouding the minds of sitting jurists. I think you're completely correct with your "shoot the messenger" concept we are seeing.

Orlando---

And I commend yet another of your intelligent posts. You always do your research and present "just the facts, ma'am" when you post. Right is right and wrong is wrong, and emotions can blur the lines between. Barry is WRONG, regardless of WHO the messenger is.

.

An exceptional article this morning in the San Francisco Chronicle by columnist Joan Ryan Today about the concept of "Personal Truth" and it's application in Bonds case...

quote:

The analogy would be if a kid -- let's call him Billy -- goes up to his teacher and tells her that Johnny stole the answers to a very important test. The test had earned Johnny the top spot in a national competition and turned him into a school hero. It was an exciting time, and everyone was looking forward to what amazing academic feats Johnny would accomplish next.
So what does the teacher do when faced with Billy's clear-cut evidence -- enough evidence to fill a book -- that Johnny cheated?
She says Billy has an agenda to bring Johnny down. She says Johnny is very smart, maybe the smartest around, and he would have hit that test out of the park even without the purloined answers. She denounces Billy for exposing information that taints the reputation of such a talented, admired student and cheapens his accomplishments.

Well worth chasing down and reading...

44

A young teenager comes home very late on a Friday night. There is a lot of slurred speech, stumbling around and later a good deal of puking going on in the bathroom. In the morning he has a great big headache and cotton mouth. His Dad goes uptown to get a newspaper. While at the newsstand Dad gets talking to an off duty cop that he knows, who tells him that they confiscated some whiskey bottles from the boy and a friend last night in a local park where they were throwing rocks at streetlights. The boy appeared to be a little tipsy according to the policeman. But he knew us, the kid was a school football star, so they took his whiskey and drove the boys home.

hmmmm…..
What do you do? What DO you do?

I don’t know about you, but if that’s my kid, he’s toast. I don’t need to catch him on video tape in mid-swig of Jack Daniels with a rock in his hand. And I’m not gonna beat the cop up for informing on him.

I'd post this under its own topic to get responses.

dad10...

Great post...Thought it was "instant replay" of a few years ago.

Observer, thanks for the tip, that's a very good column.

Personal Truth

A number of factors seem to have accelerated the demise of truth --- litigation, which has taught way too many people to qualify their constructed version of events with such phrases like 'as I remember' (a faulty memory isn't lying, now is it ?), dozens of different broadcast news sources, so that you can choose your news source based on your politics and be comfortable knowing that your views won't be challenged, and the internet where quick-draw blogs are read as fact.

Spin has always been with us --- from the first time the winning side wrote the history of a war --- but it's the broad, unquestioning acceptance of what's being said that worries me.

Who said steroids weren't illegal in baseball???

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=1

Very good post Orlando!

dad10- Bingo!!

People see and believe what they WANT to. A quick anecdote(and this is not political so please don't make it an issue).

True story(I watched it live). A female Clinton supporter had just finished telling a reporter that the accusation about Monica and Clinton was untrue. The reporter said,
"But Maam, the President has just admitted that he had relations with her!" She shot back
immediately, "Well then, I don't believe HIM either!". Nuff said.

Well found, Holden, I'm going to bookmark that one.

It's always irritated me when people say 'but it wasn't against the rules of baseball' when taking controlled substances not prescribed for a medical reason was against the law. Of the US. For everybody. Even athletes. I would imagine there isn't mention of axe murder in the rules of baseball either, but that wouldn't give ball players leave to off their mothers-in-law.

Orlando...

Well said...

More From the Ryan Article...

quote:

But I'm not sure deception and wrongdoing make much difference in the post-truth era. Journalists can uncover clear evidence of lying and cheating, and still the politicians get re-elected, the ballplayers get endorsements, the CEOs get bonuses, and the celebrities get a slot on Oprah.
"When enough of us peddle fantasy as fact,'' Keyes said, "society loses its grounding in reality.''
And when enough of us dismiss fact as fantasy, society loses its ability to reach intelligent conclusions and form reasonable opinions. What we have left are fluffy confections of our own invention, all self-indulgence and empty calories.

44

For those of us that don't care for the system (any system - take your pick) I suppose we could change it with supporting legislation / constitutional change / voting. Or maybe if we don't like it it's O.K. to circumvent it. As long as it's not US on the other side of the table...After all, it's about Truth, Justice and the American way as long as it's our way.

Orlando, credit bostondirtdogs.com for that find. Great site, by the way, for those not as familiar with the Boston baseball scene.

I visit bostondirtdogs and SOSH occasionally --- amusing, informed, interesting baseball talk to be had there!

saw this line in the Los Angels Times today written by a very well credentialed and respected writer J.A. Adande-

"Dealing with Barry Bonds is such an unpleasant process that if he were holding on Line 1, ready to give me the exclusive ultra scoop confesson that he used steroids, I wouldn't take the call-because that way I wouldn't have to talk to Barry Bonds."

I just read the SI article last night with the book excerpts. I would not have thought my opinion of bonds (having watched him, having met him, having spoken with him) could be any lower, but they've taken it down a few more nothces.

As far as this greatest hitter ever talk-
pre-'roids-ooops, I mean pre-1999 bonds was a .289 liftime hitter with 411 HR and 1,216 rbi-

greatest hitter EVER

at least if he ultimately gets elected to the HOF I hope he will have the decency to go in as a Pirate, because as a Giant, it's all just too pathetic.

quote:

at least if he ultimately gets elected to the HOF I hope he will have the decency to go in as a Pirate, because as a Giant, it's all just too pathetic.

HeyBatter---

NO THANKS!! We don't want him!

PAmom

a very enlightening thread, I learned somthing about grand juries that I hope I never have to use

some wonder, why would the reporters "tap dance" on TV?
gee, guess I'll have to read SI & BUY THEIR BOOK to find out (read "teaser/$$$$")


I also need help differentiating between a Bonds appologist and a substance appologist

or is there a difference

PAmom- my apologies to you and Pirate fans everywhere.

I've often suspected that some of the staunchest Bonds apologists might have some steroid use or history of condoning steroid use in their backgrounds.

CADAD

Another assumption ????

CADad, I can understand the posters on the pro ball fan sites who still support Bonds a little more easily than the people here, as they're not involved with young men who aspire to their own next level.

As Chairman said, and I certainly know how true it is of my own son, the boys are always being told to get bigger. At some point, the choice may well be between hanging up the cleats and giving in to Better Body Through Chemistry. My son was 14 the first time he was offered steroids; it's not as if they're difficult to come by.

Cutting any slack for the current poster boy for success through the cream and the clear (sticking to the two he has admitted to using) seems to me to be in direct conflict to the aim of this website and to the best interests of the young players we all support.

Perhaps there is more to someone's support than an unwillingness to concede that it certainly looks as if an admired athlete broke the laws of his country and his sport, and broke faith with the fans who have provided him with his fame and fortune.

TR, the word used were 'suspected' and 'might'. How does this equate to 'assumption'?

quote:

I've often suspected that some of the staunchest Bonds apologists might have some steroid use or history of condoning steroid use in their backgrounds.

quote:

quote:

"When enough of us peddle fantasy as fact,'' Keyes said, "society loses its grounding in reality.''

quote:

'nuff said.

quote:

Perhaps there is more to someone's support than an unwillingness to concede that it certainly looks as if an admired athlete broke the laws of his country

I care less about steoids and Bonds and am dramatically much more concerned about someone revealing grand jury testimony to writers; and, revealing confidential FBI information to writers.

If Bonds broke the law, prosecute him. If the writers broke the law, prosecute them. Don't let them hide behind "Freedom of the Press" and mommy's skirt.

quote:

I've often suspected that some of the staunchest Bonds apologists might have some steroid use or history of condoning steroid use in their backgrounds.

I don't smoke or drink and have not used drugs or condoned the use of steroids. I happen to enjoy Barry Bonds' talent.

CAdad....

In my opinion, I've often suspected that some of the staunchest Bonds critics have a history of mopery in their backgrounds.

beenthere says:
"I care less about steroids and Bonds" ...... "I happen to enjoy Barry Bonds' talent"



talk about wide mood swings

Ah, yes, that pesky old First Amendment, otherwise known as the Mommy's Skirt Supplement.

Orlando

Where I come from "suspected" and "might" equates to "assumption" !!!!

As I noted earlier I am not talking Bonds about what did or didnt-- the topic is the using info that they may or may not have gotten I thru proper means and channels


Bottom line is I trust what my kids will do and what they did -- if the groundwork is set BS in the media wont erode what you have done in the home--give your kids credit for being smarter than you think they are and give yourself credit as a parent for having done the right thing all along in bringing them up

As my dad used to tell me a youth--"I can preach to you all the time but when you go out the door I can only hope that it all sunk in."

My dad was never insecure in what he did in dealing with his kids--neither was I with my kids--

By the way 'roids didnt make Bonds swing as sweet as it is--'roids did not give him the patience that he has at the plate

OK, Humpty, "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." (from Alice In Wonderland).

So you see no difference between "I suspect he's injured" and "I assume he's injured", and your actions with regard, say, to a player on your team would be exactly the same? No additional questions involved in the former? Well, okey-dokey.

I commend you and your father on your parenting skills. However, I don't assume (which would be different from suspect) that the temptation of steroid use (not only with impunity but also with rewards, thus far, in sports) is directed only at my son. Were it, I would have no reason to participate in an open discussion; my business would be elsewhere.

You are willing to assume the best of Bonds and the worst of the writers, which is your right (one might say your First Amendment Right). There being a legal path (that passes through that First Amendment) for the writers to have recieved the information hasn't changed your opinion.

No one here, that I have noticed, has suggested that Barry's swing is less than sweet; they have, however, suggested that sweet swings can end in well-hit line drive outs to the OF, or HRs....with just a little bit more strength behind that sweet swing.


---------------


By the way, I had to shake my head at Barry's response to the book, through his lawyer:

"The exploitation of Barry's good name and these attempts to eviscerate his sensational accomplishments in all phases of the game of baseball (throughout high school and college, as well as 20 years of playing professionally) may make those responsible wealthy, but in the end, they have misled the public in the interest of financial and professional self promotion."

That would be the pot lecturing the kettle on the subject of blackness.

Just as I figured.

Now people are getting "personal" and rude.

I'm off this thread.

Have a great day, everyone.

Chairman

Being told to get bigger and stronger does not mean using steroids--- good eating habits and work out regimen can make it happen

TR,

I have tremendous respect for you as a person, a leader in baseball, and the highest regard for your wealth of experience and how you help so many young baseball players. You're one of the truly good guys.

Can't figure out your roadblock on Bonds...

MJM

It's a sad day when you have to add Barry Bonds to the religion and politics topics that should not be discussed in friendly conversation.

While I admire his abilities, I despise his attitude. But who am I to judge I still look up to Nixon.

rz1:

quote:

But who am I to judge I still look up to Nixon.

You are a brave soul indeed!

TR says:

quote:

Being told to get bigger and stronger does not mean using steroids,
good eating habits ... can make it happen

if that were true they'd supena records from "Applebees" instead of "Balco"



that's an illogical statement in iight of the results that Bonds, McGuire, Palmeiro, Camineti, Sosa, Canseco and others had with steroids in baseball

that is exactly what is meant

RZ,

Trot Nixon is a fine ballplayer.

Otis Nixon was good too.

Russ Nixon was a career .262 hitter.