This whole thing for me is less about Bonds and more about our intelligent Gullibility as citizens. We all feel like we've got it figured out, but as soon as some snake in the grass(reporter) says something, we think its been carved in the tablets of stone. I am continuing to question people who make there gainful living by bashing others. Yes, we all look for gain, but if its at anothers expense, I don't want to know that person.
I and others I've known have been the victim of over zealous press stories for simply the sake of making a deadline, so I will remain a skeptic until the evidence is brought forth by people in the legal world, not by the pinheads in the press.
Bonds will eventually pay a high price if proven guilty, and as I said, IT Will Never Go To Court Because He's Already Been Tried by the Public.
I believe that Bonds is in "steriod" court now and is losing. One of the effects of steroids is that it damages your joints and he had to have 3 operations last year and looks like some replacements may be shortly down the road. Next will be the "congenital heart defect" like Ahnold Steroid Schwarzenegger had.
As far as steroids in baseball:
Until something changes, they are here to stay. Don't go with the "MLB is cleaning up the game" c***. They may want to, but I can tell you from reading a lot about steroids in weightlifting and other sports - they are here to stay. "Oh we have testing now" you say. OH my, don't be duped - there are myriad ways of beating the tests and there is no test for HGH. Is the story embellished - could be as far as the human aspect of it (like the girl friend stuff and how much he hated McGuire get praised, etc.), but the drugs - no, not as much as he could pass for a heavy user easily and from what I read - that is not heavy use like some of the weight "sports" like "Bodybuilding" where it can be drugging all day to get through the day.
The thing that I and others hate is Bond's attitude. "Hey look at ME ME ME - I'm great" Maybe Bond's has some real emotional problems from dad not spending enough time with him or something as satisfying his own self is not good enough - he evidently needs someone to tell him how great and wonderful he is. Someone needs to tell him the two truths:
1) There is a God.
2) You're not Him.
Tim Robertson
As far as steroids in baseball:
Until something changes, they are here to stay. Don't go with the "MLB is cleaning up the game" c***. They may want to, but I can tell you from reading a lot about steroids in weightlifting and other sports - they are here to stay. "Oh we have testing now" you say. OH my, don't be duped - there are myriad ways of beating the tests and there is no test for HGH. Is the story embellished - could be as far as the human aspect of it (like the girl friend stuff and how much he hated McGuire get praised, etc.), but the drugs - no, not as much as he could pass for a heavy user easily and from what I read - that is not heavy use like some of the weight "sports" like "Bodybuilding" where it can be drugging all day to get through the day.
The thing that I and others hate is Bond's attitude. "Hey look at ME ME ME - I'm great" Maybe Bond's has some real emotional problems from dad not spending enough time with him or something as satisfying his own self is not good enough - he evidently needs someone to tell him how great and wonderful he is. Someone needs to tell him the two truths:
1) There is a God.
2) You're not Him.
Tim Robertson
Coachric,
While you have a problem with "intelligent gullibility" or whatever that means, I have an at least equal problem with people who decide not to accept that when it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck that it is, in reality, a duck.
You're worring about people making money exposing that Bonds was a cheating drug abuser who used performance enhancing chemicals? You think Bonds is a victim because people are seeking and presenting facts to the public?
Get in the foxhole with TR and Been in Bonds' backyard...
While you have a problem with "intelligent gullibility" or whatever that means, I have an at least equal problem with people who decide not to accept that when it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck that it is, in reality, a duck.
You're worring about people making money exposing that Bonds was a cheating drug abuser who used performance enhancing chemicals? You think Bonds is a victim because people are seeking and presenting facts to the public?
Get in the foxhole with TR and Been in Bonds' backyard...
It seems that perhaps only the truly logical and experienced (LOL) minds are in that foxhole.
At least we are not believing things that have yet to be proved as facts.
Saw a sports show the other day that claimed Ruth was using an illegal substance when he hit the 60HRs.--- booze was illegal in his day---see how ludicrous things can be if you allow the mind to roam just a little bit
At least we are not believing things that have yet to be proved as facts.
Saw a sports show the other day that claimed Ruth was using an illegal substance when he hit the 60HRs.--- booze was illegal in his day---see how ludicrous things can be if you allow the mind to roam just a little bit
TR,
Since I plan to see you often in the coming years with my 13-year old as he climbs the ladder, I'll bet you the beverage of your choice my next time up there in Rhode Island that, when it's all shaken out, that Bonds was fully aware of every drug he injested or stuck in his body.
When it comes to the media and fact gathering, you fox hole guys may be older, but I can challenge you on the experienced part.
Since I plan to see you often in the coming years with my 13-year old as he climbs the ladder, I'll bet you the beverage of your choice my next time up there in Rhode Island that, when it's all shaken out, that Bonds was fully aware of every drug he injested or stuck in his body.
When it comes to the media and fact gathering, you fox hole guys may be older, but I can challenge you on the experienced part.
...and what a dangerous thing it can be when you don't allow the mind to recognize, and acknowledge wrong.
When was booze ever a performance enhancing entity? From what I know, it has the opposite effect.
Quick history lesson: Prohibition from 1920 to 1933 was a great failure. Organized crime came into great power and tens of thousands of people died from liquor poisening. The Volstead Act of enforcement was a joke. History has proven that in 1933, when people were allowed to legally consume liquor again, crime went down and law & order dramatically improved nationally.
But guess what, I recognize that the facts demonstrate that Ruth did drink alcohol in violation of prohibition laws. How did I learn this? From reports filed by people who sought out information.
Ruth got fat...Bonds got big...Ruth drank at Speakeasys...Bonds shot Winstrol in his butt...Ruth ate hundreds of hot dogs...Bonds swallowed hundreds of steroid pills. Need I continue?
Keep defending Bonds.
Quick history lesson: Prohibition from 1920 to 1933 was a great failure. Organized crime came into great power and tens of thousands of people died from liquor poisening. The Volstead Act of enforcement was a joke. History has proven that in 1933, when people were allowed to legally consume liquor again, crime went down and law & order dramatically improved nationally.
But guess what, I recognize that the facts demonstrate that Ruth did drink alcohol in violation of prohibition laws. How did I learn this? From reports filed by people who sought out information.
Ruth got fat...Bonds got big...Ruth drank at Speakeasys...Bonds shot Winstrol in his butt...Ruth ate hundreds of hot dogs...Bonds swallowed hundreds of steroid pills. Need I continue?
Keep defending Bonds.
I'm sure the lawyers on the board will be relieved to hear they're now the Good Guys, what with all the digs the profession usually takes. Lawyers (an integral part of the legal system), of course, would never twist facts, 'bash' others, or 'report' their arguements in a misleading way in order to win a case, for gain.
And Bonds, along with all other chemically enhanced athletes, use those drugs solely to entertain the fans. They have no desire to promote themselves at the expense of others. Unless, of course, you count the athletes who are playing clean, the athletes who will never get their shot as long as a place is taken by a law-breaker, or the athletes whose records are broken.
Given that the book contains testimony and records reported during the Grand Jury, please explain if that information came from the 'pinheads' or the court system?
LadyNMom has already reminded you that everybody does something for gain, including Bonds and his ilk in baseball.
Of course there are unscrupulous reporters...and athletes, and lawyers, and people in every walk of life. But if there weren't investigative reporters, think for a moment how many people would get by with a whole range of illegal and immoral acts. And I don't even mind if the reporters get paid for their writing, what with a Free Press and all. Maybe that's the whole problem with free press...it requires thought and reading opposing views to decide what you beleve. But perhaps that's just the illogical and inexperienced view.
How do the "wait for the facts" folk explain the changes in Bonds' body (particularly the cobras around his forearms) at the age of 33? Or the increase in HR:AB from a high of 1:12 when he was 27 (an age one would expect him to be at his peak), to 1:9, steady, from 33 - 39? (Do keep in mind the decline in the intervening years...1:15)?
And Bonds, along with all other chemically enhanced athletes, use those drugs solely to entertain the fans. They have no desire to promote themselves at the expense of others. Unless, of course, you count the athletes who are playing clean, the athletes who will never get their shot as long as a place is taken by a law-breaker, or the athletes whose records are broken.
Given that the book contains testimony and records reported during the Grand Jury, please explain if that information came from the 'pinheads' or the court system?
LadyNMom has already reminded you that everybody does something for gain, including Bonds and his ilk in baseball.
Of course there are unscrupulous reporters...and athletes, and lawyers, and people in every walk of life. But if there weren't investigative reporters, think for a moment how many people would get by with a whole range of illegal and immoral acts. And I don't even mind if the reporters get paid for their writing, what with a Free Press and all. Maybe that's the whole problem with free press...it requires thought and reading opposing views to decide what you beleve. But perhaps that's just the illogical and inexperienced view.
How do the "wait for the facts" folk explain the changes in Bonds' body (particularly the cobras around his forearms) at the age of 33? Or the increase in HR:AB from a high of 1:12 when he was 27 (an age one would expect him to be at his peak), to 1:9, steady, from 33 - 39? (Do keep in mind the decline in the intervening years...1:15)?
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
It seems that perhaps only the truly logical and experienced (LOL) minds are in that foxhole.
At least we are not believing things that have yet to be proved as facts.
Saw a sports show the other day that claimed Ruth was using an illegal substance when he hit the 60HRs.--- booze was illegal in his day---see how ludicrous things can be if you allow the mind to roam just a little bit
No way you actually believe what you just wrote...Even Skip Bayless thinks your just trying to get a reaction. Congrats on baiting and hooking some of us...Be sure to call The Baseball HOF and have them asterisk Ruths whisky induced bombs.
quote:It seems that perhaps only the truly logical and experienced (LOL) minds are in that foxhole.
At least we are not believing things that have yet to be proved as facts.
Saw a sports show the other day that claimed Ruth was using an illegal substance when he hit the 60HRs.--- booze was illegal in his day---see how ludicrous things can be if you allow the mind to roam just a little bit
TRhit
9 pages into this thread, and one of the more ludicrous defenses for Barry was by the two "foxhole buddies", who tried to pin the blame squarely on Bonds' ex- girlfriend for the whole fiasco.
Now, we're comparing the cattle steroids and Human Growth Hormone of Bonds
to the hot dogs and bathtub gin of Ruth. 
Yeah, I definitely see a correlation.
This is going to be my last post on this particular thread.....and have to say...for me..it's not just about Bonds....it's the other users too...their influence on the game....and the players that came before them...and the kids that glorify them.....and we fans......that praised and celebrated their tainted accomplishments.....
McGwire....I go back to that night when he broke the record...the Maris family in attendance.....the jubilation.....we sang his praises that night....and while we felt sadness for the Maris family....we were so very happy for McGwire.....his son.....and most importantly...the game....our game.....McGwire, and Sosa at his heels...were not only setting new records, but also mending leftover strike sentiment......it was all so very good...
....but it wasn't.....it was all a lie. As a fan.....I now feel cheated....and upset that players who came before these users will be unjustly denied their just due to the records.......and as a parent.....angry that they lied to my son.....and set an example of cheating.....
McGwire....I go back to that night when he broke the record...the Maris family in attendance.....the jubilation.....we sang his praises that night....and while we felt sadness for the Maris family....we were so very happy for McGwire.....his son.....and most importantly...the game....our game.....McGwire, and Sosa at his heels...were not only setting new records, but also mending leftover strike sentiment......it was all so very good...
....but it wasn't.....it was all a lie. As a fan.....I now feel cheated....and upset that players who came before these users will be unjustly denied their just due to the records.......and as a parent.....angry that they lied to my son.....and set an example of cheating.....
LadyNmom,
Well said. Thoughts I couldn't express.
Well said. Thoughts I couldn't express.
BASEBALL DAD
If it all shakes out with Bonds as you say it will, watch how many others go with him--I think that is what MLB is afraid of-- Not too sure that I wont be the one buying the beverages
If you speak with those in the bodybuilding field you will find that they know how to mask the 'roids they use and this leads me to believe that the problem will never truly go away
2SEAMER
your response above just shows how poorly you read--- I did not blame the ex girl friend for the fiasco --what I did say that her inclusion in the book just shows how weak the "FACTS" are---she admitted she never saw him use anything but that Bonds told her he was--Really Now!!!!!
As for the Ruth statement I only brought up what a radio guy pointed out and it was to show how ludicrous the arguments are
I have a question for all you Bonds haters-- how come nobody raises a question about Maris and his 61 HRS when he never hit more than 39 in the years before or after his 61 homer year. Doesnt that raise your eyebrows a bit? Logic similar to what you use would also lead me to think that you would think the same of Maris as you do Bonds. I am not saying he did or did not just asking how come your "logic" does not apply to him.
In closing let me say this--those who lambast we "foxhole buddies" might want to recheck their reading and thinking abilities because:
01-- nowhere did I say that I condone steroids
02-- nowhere did I say the ex girfriend was to blame
03-- you all misread what was said regarding Ruth
04-- you totally misread what is said when I say all I want are true and actual facts not inuendo from a pair of writers who have trouble giving answers in interviews.
05-- as for feeling cheated I have more vital things in life to worry about than feeling cheated about stats ---keep in mind you dont know what others in the "bigs" are doing behind those closed doors escpecially the pitchers who continue to pitch well into their 40's.
06 --I find it hilarious that a psoter can make the accusation that I used 'roids-
07-- in terms of the youth of today building their bodies with use of "roids I am sure it happens but I do not think it is that prevalent among baseball players as we want to think-- we have had players with us whose bodies where utterly mind boggling and have been questioned--I know for a fact that they work our more than any kids I know and they are on a nutrition regimen that most people do not or will not follow
You can continue to feel as you do regarding my viewpoints but I am comfortable with my position and would be the same if I were the sole one on this board feeling as I do.
Now it is time for the next pot of coffee
If it all shakes out with Bonds as you say it will, watch how many others go with him--I think that is what MLB is afraid of-- Not too sure that I wont be the one buying the beverages
If you speak with those in the bodybuilding field you will find that they know how to mask the 'roids they use and this leads me to believe that the problem will never truly go away
2SEAMER
your response above just shows how poorly you read--- I did not blame the ex girl friend for the fiasco --what I did say that her inclusion in the book just shows how weak the "FACTS" are---she admitted she never saw him use anything but that Bonds told her he was--Really Now!!!!!
As for the Ruth statement I only brought up what a radio guy pointed out and it was to show how ludicrous the arguments are
I have a question for all you Bonds haters-- how come nobody raises a question about Maris and his 61 HRS when he never hit more than 39 in the years before or after his 61 homer year. Doesnt that raise your eyebrows a bit? Logic similar to what you use would also lead me to think that you would think the same of Maris as you do Bonds. I am not saying he did or did not just asking how come your "logic" does not apply to him.
In closing let me say this--those who lambast we "foxhole buddies" might want to recheck their reading and thinking abilities because:
01-- nowhere did I say that I condone steroids
02-- nowhere did I say the ex girfriend was to blame
03-- you all misread what was said regarding Ruth
04-- you totally misread what is said when I say all I want are true and actual facts not inuendo from a pair of writers who have trouble giving answers in interviews.
05-- as for feeling cheated I have more vital things in life to worry about than feeling cheated about stats ---keep in mind you dont know what others in the "bigs" are doing behind those closed doors escpecially the pitchers who continue to pitch well into their 40's.
06 --I find it hilarious that a psoter can make the accusation that I used 'roids-
07-- in terms of the youth of today building their bodies with use of "roids I am sure it happens but I do not think it is that prevalent among baseball players as we want to think-- we have had players with us whose bodies where utterly mind boggling and have been questioned--I know for a fact that they work our more than any kids I know and they are on a nutrition regimen that most people do not or will not follow
You can continue to feel as you do regarding my viewpoints but I am comfortable with my position and would be the same if I were the sole one on this board feeling as I do.
Now it is time for the next pot of coffee
TR,
I found a great place behind the hotel we stayed in at your RI tournament. We'll go there...
I think you hit on the core issue facing baseball: How do you go after Bonds and not Canseco, McGwire, Palmiero, Pujols, Bagwell, ARod, Pudge, Ramirez, Piazza, even Jeter. I mix all these players up because, right now, how do we tell the cheaters from the righteous? Can of worms the size of Cooperstown for baseball.
And let's remember that baseball caused all of this. Remember that the game fell in the mud in 1994 with the strike. Then baseball jacked up the baseball, tightening the thing to a white Superball with laces, and wanting players to hit every offering into the nearest man made pond, swimming pool or upper deck in the country. Players were being rewarded for hitting clusters of homeruns and then the upsizing began.
I know Bonds cheated and I know he's not alone. He's personally responsible for his actions. But corporate MLB created this environment. It bears a great deal of the responsibility and with the thinking it has displayed, I doubt any acceptable plan of action is coming anytime soon.
I found a great place behind the hotel we stayed in at your RI tournament. We'll go there...
I think you hit on the core issue facing baseball: How do you go after Bonds and not Canseco, McGwire, Palmiero, Pujols, Bagwell, ARod, Pudge, Ramirez, Piazza, even Jeter. I mix all these players up because, right now, how do we tell the cheaters from the righteous? Can of worms the size of Cooperstown for baseball.
And let's remember that baseball caused all of this. Remember that the game fell in the mud in 1994 with the strike. Then baseball jacked up the baseball, tightening the thing to a white Superball with laces, and wanting players to hit every offering into the nearest man made pond, swimming pool or upper deck in the country. Players were being rewarded for hitting clusters of homeruns and then the upsizing began.
I know Bonds cheated and I know he's not alone. He's personally responsible for his actions. But corporate MLB created this environment. It bears a great deal of the responsibility and with the thinking it has displayed, I doubt any acceptable plan of action is coming anytime soon.
another last thought
while Bonds did mess up ...
he COULD never have done it if "baseball" at EVERY LEVEL had not looked the other way as guys before Bonds did the same thing over the years
pro baseball was too busy counting their $$ to become distracted by substance issues
the players association members were reaping benefits as well
plenty of blame also lies squarely with scouts, agents, and coaches who have ever told a player
"YOU NEED TO GET BIGGER AND STRONGER"
anyone who thinks that REALLY means "eat your veggies & work out"
is either naive or stupid ... and neither is of much comfort
there will be some fuss and they'll put on a "show" about testing etc, but after the dust settles ... it will go on as before with more sophistication
jmo
btw TR, you can omit leading zeros on a list numbering 10 items
conserve the bandwidth, ya know
ps- bbd1228 posted while I was typing & I agree, & he probably expresses some things better
while Bonds did mess up ...
he COULD never have done it if "baseball" at EVERY LEVEL had not looked the other way as guys before Bonds did the same thing over the years
pro baseball was too busy counting their $$ to become distracted by substance issues
the players association members were reaping benefits as well
plenty of blame also lies squarely with scouts, agents, and coaches who have ever told a player
"YOU NEED TO GET BIGGER AND STRONGER"
anyone who thinks that REALLY means "eat your veggies & work out"
is either naive or stupid ... and neither is of much comfort
there will be some fuss and they'll put on a "show" about testing etc, but after the dust settles ... it will go on as before with more sophistication
jmo
btw TR, you can omit leading zeros on a list numbering 10 items
conserve the bandwidth, ya know
ps- bbd1228 posted while I was typing & I agree, & he probably expresses some things better
The last few posts on this thread, from Orlando to LadyNmom, TRhit, and Baseballdad1228, to Chairman are excellent, well said, and thought provoking. And correct. And sad........
Very sad............
Very sad............
I find it amazing that the same SF newspaper continues to get hand son ifo that is not for public consumption and now they add a scorned woman
One other thing--in this day of wives/girlfirends running to the police if their spouse/lover looks at them cross eyes why didnt his so called "mistress" call the police when he threatened her life/
The "scorned woman" that you "didn't" blame for any of this mess only gave testimony that was a small piece of the puzzle. She testified that Barry and his trainer always took his miracle bag of flaxseed oil and Bengay into a private room, she testified that she never actually saw him injected, and she testified that he openly told her he was on steroids...apparently some of this is on tape, because she got scared and started taping calls. She testified that he threatened her life, and had the means to make her "disappear"..if I was a woman dating a high profile athlete making $18 million plus per year, and he threatened me with bodily harm, I'd be concerned too. Your foxhole buddy posted the same nonsense, blaming the woman, but the post has "poofed" and been deleted. Good defense...blame the woman.
You brought up some dumb statement by a talk show guy that Ruth was using an illegal substance...alcohol...when he set records. Why? don't know...bathtub gin and Deca Durabolin are two completely different animals.
On multiple occasions, not just on this thread, you've repeatedly brought up the fact that Maris hit 61 one year, and you continually question how he had that career year...why, I don't know. He never did it again. Bonds' stats show a marked escalation that coincides with the escalation of his head size from the HGH.
So, lets see, you've blamed his girlfriend, you've blamed the reporters, you've blamed leakers on the Grand Jury, you've blamed the SF Chronicle...odd...you don't blame Barry.
If there wasn't factual, indisputable proof to back up the very specific info released by these guys, Barry and his lawyers would be on it like Babe Ruth on a doughnut. Their silence speaks volumes. That shoots down another of your gripes.
If you think that following a strict nutrition regimen, lifting weights, and taking your Flintstones vitamins will give you results anywhere near taking steroids, then I'm sorry, but you're clueless.
Maybe you can let Bud Selig join you in the foxhole. He's been in deep hiding since this story broke. I wouldn't be surprised if he hides from the press by dressing as a kielbasa at Milwaukee's sausage races. I hear they have an opening for a bratwurst and a frankfurter...
One other thing--in this day of wives/girlfirends running to the police if their spouse/lover looks at them cross eyes why didnt his so called "mistress" call the police when he threatened her life/
The "scorned woman" that you "didn't" blame for any of this mess only gave testimony that was a small piece of the puzzle. She testified that Barry and his trainer always took his miracle bag of flaxseed oil and Bengay into a private room, she testified that she never actually saw him injected, and she testified that he openly told her he was on steroids...apparently some of this is on tape, because she got scared and started taping calls. She testified that he threatened her life, and had the means to make her "disappear"..if I was a woman dating a high profile athlete making $18 million plus per year, and he threatened me with bodily harm, I'd be concerned too. Your foxhole buddy posted the same nonsense, blaming the woman, but the post has "poofed" and been deleted. Good defense...blame the woman.
You brought up some dumb statement by a talk show guy that Ruth was using an illegal substance...alcohol...when he set records. Why? don't know...bathtub gin and Deca Durabolin are two completely different animals.
On multiple occasions, not just on this thread, you've repeatedly brought up the fact that Maris hit 61 one year, and you continually question how he had that career year...why, I don't know. He never did it again. Bonds' stats show a marked escalation that coincides with the escalation of his head size from the HGH.
So, lets see, you've blamed his girlfriend, you've blamed the reporters, you've blamed leakers on the Grand Jury, you've blamed the SF Chronicle...odd...you don't blame Barry.
If there wasn't factual, indisputable proof to back up the very specific info released by these guys, Barry and his lawyers would be on it like Babe Ruth on a doughnut. Their silence speaks volumes. That shoots down another of your gripes.
If you think that following a strict nutrition regimen, lifting weights, and taking your Flintstones vitamins will give you results anywhere near taking steroids, then I'm sorry, but you're clueless.
Maybe you can let Bud Selig join you in the foxhole. He's been in deep hiding since this story broke. I wouldn't be surprised if he hides from the press by dressing as a kielbasa at Milwaukee's sausage races. I hear they have an opening for a bratwurst and a frankfurter...
The part of this story that really ticks me off is the rather clever way BALCO payed these top athletes while bilking the public. Getting all their "flaxseed" users to shill for ZMA and other useless supplements allowed BALCO to pay the juicers on the backs of the fans who trusted the athletes, admired their hard work and dedication, and bought ZMA and other junk. When some of these heroes show up in ER's with their shrunken nads and hearts beating out of their acne-pocked chest try not to feel too sorry for them, they knew they cheated and stole your money and trust along the way.
quote:When some of these heroes show up in ER's with their shrunken nads and hearts beating out of their acne-pocked chest try not to feel too sorry for them, ...
Welcome to the HSBBW.
While I won't comment, or draw an instant opinion because of your screen name, when I read your "verbage", I thought, this guy has the potential to raise some hairs on this site.
2 Seamer
To me there is a vast difference between testifying and giving info to the newspaper reporters
And sir your insinuations regarding my intelligence are uncalled for--again you need a class in reading ability.
As for being clueless--Pal I wont go there until you look in the mirror-- I do not claim to be all knowing but I **** well well know what I do know.
To me there is a vast difference between testifying and giving info to the newspaper reporters
And sir your insinuations regarding my intelligence are uncalled for--again you need a class in reading ability.
As for being clueless--Pal I wont go there until you look in the mirror-- I do not claim to be all knowing but I **** well well know what I do know.
You can talk down about Barry and Bud all you want, but leave the sausages out of it. All I'm going to say is you don't know what your messin' with on those sacred grounds.
quote:To me there is a vast difference between testifying and giving info to the newspaper reporters
And sir your insinuations regarding my intelligence are uncalled for--again you need a class in reading ability.
As for being clueless--Pal I wont go there until you look in the mirror-- I do not claim to be all knowing but I **** well well know what I do know.
quote:To me there is a vast difference between testifying and giving info to the newspaper reporters
And sir your insinuations regarding my intelligence are uncalled for--again you need a class in reading ability.
As for being clueless--Pal I wont go there until you look in the mirror-- I do not claim to be all knowing but I **** well well know what I do know.
You denied blaming the girlfriend..your own quotes dispute that. I don't think a reading comprehension class would change the meaning of what you wrote..
I don't know what vast difference you're referring to...she testified in front of the Grand Jury in 2005. If all you thought she did was speak to reporters, then you need the class, not me.
As for clueless...if the shoe fits, wear it. You have proven by your various steroid related posts over the last couple of years that you really don't know anything about them. If you don't believe me, look in the archives...I did.
You are in a position with showcases, travel teams, etc. to have a positive impact on a kid that may be wanting to try them, or you may actually save a life by recognizing that someone may be using them and warning them of the dangers. You're oblivious enough to suggest that incredible gains in size and strength are due solely by good workout and nutritional habits. That's only partially true...but moreso if some Stanozolol is tucked into the salad bar.
I know a handful of college baseball players. Bar none, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM knows one or more different players that are using steroids, some of which have been using since high school. These are kids from down South, up North, the Midwest, and the Far West. Take that handful I know and multiply them exponentially...that's a lot of players.
quote:in terms of the youth of today building their bodies with use of "roids I am sure it happens but I do not think it is that prevalent among baseball players as we want to think-- we have had players with us whose bodies where utterly mind boggling and have been questioned--I know for a fact that they work our more than any kids I know and they are on a nutrition regimen that most people do not or will not follow
Since you're in the player marketing/travel team/showcase business, maybe you should consider taking off the blinders, climb out of the foxhole, and take a big honest gulp of reality. A little humility wouldn't hurt either.
rz1...sorry...I didn't mean to sully the reputation of the sausages... 
2seamer,
I believe TR understands the dangers of steroid use and has offered several positions to defend the way the Bonds information is disseminated. Don't confuse that with his commitment to our young people and his high level of caring for them. I disagree with him on Bonds, but truly respect who he is and what he stands for. Please keep this in mind. Thanks.
I believe TR understands the dangers of steroid use and has offered several positions to defend the way the Bonds information is disseminated. Don't confuse that with his commitment to our young people and his high level of caring for them. I disagree with him on Bonds, but truly respect who he is and what he stands for. Please keep this in mind. Thanks.
by 2seamer:
and 2seamr ... don't worry about those sausages "they have thick skins"
.
... that bears repeating!!!quote:I know a handful of college baseball players. Bar none, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM knows one or more different players that are using steroids, some of which have been using since high school. These are kids from down South, up North, the Midwest, and the Far West
and 2seamr ... don't worry about those sausages "they have thick skins"
.
And yet another book was announced this morning---tis the season for Bonds book--the latest one will be profiled in ESPN the Magazine
You will have plenty of reading material in your foxhole, TR. 
quote:I believe TR understands the dangers of steroid use and has offered several positions to defend the way the Bonds information is disseminated. Don't confuse that with his commitment to our young people and his high level of caring for them. I disagree with him on Bonds, but truly respect who he is and what he stands for. Please keep this in mind. Thanks.
You know, I really believe he cares about the kids. That's what makes his stands on the whole thing so @*#! irritating. I've looked back over a couple of years of archived posts...and he's consistently kept the same frame of reference...attack the accuser, whether it be Jose' Canseco, the SF Chronicle, or reporters working on a story...he consistently has written that he doesn't believe that steroids can make you hit the ball farther or improve hand eye coordination and batspeed...all of which is being proven in research...he beats around the bush with scattergun defenses of Bonds, wondering why no one suspects Roger Maris of using cattle steroids because he had one miraculous season...it's all counterproductive.
Sometimes as we get older we get set in our ways...maybe this discussion will knock the coffee cup out of his hand, get him off of his rumpus, and convince him to learn more about what's going on out there...at one time or another, we all need that coffee cup knocked out of our hands....and just maybe that little extra bit of knowledge he picks up could save a kids career...or his life.
If the end result of all of this is that he takes another shot at me...well, my skin is about as thick as one of those Milwaukee kielbasas, and I can shoot back...but if one hardhead can make an impression on another hardhead..it's all worth it.
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:
... that bears repeating!!!
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I'm not going to get into the "Yes he is / No he's not" debate because quite frankly, I don't know for sure if he is or not. But I do have several concerns regarding the matter. First one Bee touched on. I was in college back when "steroids" became popular. I was at a D1 program and the football team wasn't nationally recognized then (STILL not a power) but many of my football player friends were on various products like "D-Ball" but I was under the impression they KNEW when they would be tested and KNEW when to back off so they didn't get caught. Is that still the way it works?
Second concern, IMO, there are steroids and there are supplements. I'm not saying taking supplements is right but I don't think it's fair to lump every performance enhancing pill into the steroid category. You can take it to the extreme and somebody can argue that Vitamin C enhances one's perfromance, but that doesn't make it a steroid.
quote:Originally posted by 2seamer:
...he consistently has written that he doesn't believe that steroids can...improve hand eye coordination and batspeed...
I think I'd side with TRHit on that one.
There's a difference between a steroid and a supplement. The possession of unprescribed steroids is against the law. Supplements are basically unregulated, and can be bought over the counter...you can get creatine at Walmart. There are supplements that tread on the "grey area"..androstenedione, for example, is a "steroid precursor"...it doesn't quite fall into the steroid category...some people may class it as a steroid. Which is probably one of the reasons Mark McGwire refused to answer questions at the Congressional hearings on whether or not he used steroids..there are so many derivatives and compounds that what one person says isn't a steroid, another may disagree and say it is. Even though it was embarrassing to him, it prevented him from having perjury charges brought against him if someone disagreed with his interpretation of a steroid.
I know of two baseball programs that tell players the following..
(1) You will be tested for steroids on ---date.
(2) Brand --- steroid takes X #s of days to clear your system.
(3) We do not condone the use of steroids.
(4) Mr. ----- at this phone # and address supposedly has Brand--- steroid for sale. Do not let the coaching staff catch you there.
(5) Again, your testing date is----be sure you do not test positive.
You would be naive to think that only two programs do this.
I know of two baseball programs that tell players the following..
(1) You will be tested for steroids on ---date.
(2) Brand --- steroid takes X #s of days to clear your system.
(3) We do not condone the use of steroids.
(4) Mr. ----- at this phone # and address supposedly has Brand--- steroid for sale. Do not let the coaching staff catch you there.
(5) Again, your testing date is----be sure you do not test positive.
You would be naive to think that only two programs do this.
quote:I think I'd side with TRHit on that one.
Unfortunately, new research is showing that certain steroid combinations improve your visual acuity and hand/eye coordination, along with batspeed.
2seamer, somehow #6 was ommitted from your list 
(6) YOU NEED TO GET BIGGER AND STRONGER
(6) YOU NEED TO GET BIGGER AND STRONGER
It still goes back to basics-- you have to have the ability to hit the ball-- you have to have to have the patience to lay off bad pitches--
Steroids are known to produce rage-- has BONDS shown those signs while batting--I would think it would make him a very agressive hitter and lose his patience --has it?
2SEAMER
This is for you and you only to answer--what makes you think you know so much about me and my thinking on this topic--perhaps I know more than you on the subjecxt--perhaps I believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty
-- perhaps I do not believe all the written word, especially from writers who like to write "novels" for the money they will get in return
It may frost you but perhaps, just maybe perhaps, I know some things you do not know.
Like I said before I do not know everything but what I do know I sure of--and I am not a CHAIRMAN -- I am just an elderly Italian Baseball Fan who may even be older and more experienced than a CHAIRMAN
Steroids are known to produce rage-- has BONDS shown those signs while batting--I would think it would make him a very agressive hitter and lose his patience --has it?
2SEAMER
This is for you and you only to answer--what makes you think you know so much about me and my thinking on this topic--perhaps I know more than you on the subjecxt--perhaps I believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty
-- perhaps I do not believe all the written word, especially from writers who like to write "novels" for the money they will get in return
It may frost you but perhaps, just maybe perhaps, I know some things you do not know.
Like I said before I do not know everything but what I do know I sure of--and I am not a CHAIRMAN -- I am just an elderly Italian Baseball Fan who may even be older and more experienced than a CHAIRMAN
Rage is replaced with the confidence derived from knowledge that the steroid use gives him a tremendous advantage. He's actually quite happy standing in that batters box, partly because he's not sitting on the part of his body used to insert the needles. Must get sore, shooting all that Winstrol into the cheeks...
maybe my view has been a bit harsh
when you get down to the brass tacks,
is steroid use REALLY much different than Mom & Dad's pills, weed, etc, etc, during their college days?
guys of today may be leaning on a different drug, but at least they are in shape & attending class ... which was NOT the case for students during the 70's/80's (Mom, Dad, & Uncle Charlie)...
I think anyway ...
the memory's a bit fuzzy
btw TR, the rage occurs on "cycle OFF"
it appears like bonds was never there
(I'll not cap his name again, ever-ever)
when you get down to the brass tacks,
is steroid use REALLY much different than Mom & Dad's pills, weed, etc, etc, during their college days?
guys of today may be leaning on a different drug, but at least they are in shape & attending class ... which was NOT the case for students during the 70's/80's (Mom, Dad, & Uncle Charlie)...
I think anyway ...
the memory's a bit fuzzy
btw TR, the rage occurs on "cycle OFF"
it appears like bonds was never there
(I'll not cap his name again, ever-ever)
steroids will improve your eyesight/vision. It is used in some situations for that purpose (such as with MS patients).
The added strength from a steroid "enriched" workout program should arguably increase bat speed.
As far as hand/eye coordination
but don't see where there'd be a connection there.
as far as proof....a jury acquited OJ and I still think he's guilty. Plenty of innocent people are in jails. Proof/evidence-alot of "eye of the beholder" kinda stuff.
I can see the change in bonds, much/most of what I've read rings true to me (that he's a MAJOR juicer), seen alot of baseball- fairly odd for someone at the latest stages of his career, who was pre-2000 a .289 lifetime hitter, who never broke 50 homeruns to suddenly be twice his physical size and going from a previous max of 43 homeruns (if I recall correctly) to 73.
Sometimes all you gotta consider is if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....most likely you've got a duck on your hands. I've never seen the syringe in barry, but the results are pretty obvious. Just ask brady anderson
The added strength from a steroid "enriched" workout program should arguably increase bat speed.
As far as hand/eye coordination
but don't see where there'd be a connection there.
as far as proof....a jury acquited OJ and I still think he's guilty. Plenty of innocent people are in jails. Proof/evidence-alot of "eye of the beholder" kinda stuff.
I can see the change in bonds, much/most of what I've read rings true to me (that he's a MAJOR juicer), seen alot of baseball- fairly odd for someone at the latest stages of his career, who was pre-2000 a .289 lifetime hitter, who never broke 50 homeruns to suddenly be twice his physical size and going from a previous max of 43 homeruns (if I recall correctly) to 73.
Sometimes all you gotta consider is if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....most likely you've got a duck on your hands. I've never seen the syringe in barry, but the results are pretty obvious. Just ask brady anderson
Baseballdad
Do you know for a fact that the cheeks are where they take the shots ?
Another note to think about: since no baseball players have admitted to taking steroids and gone thru tests to show what 'roids does and does not do for them how can you, any of you, say what happens as a final result of taking the "roids". It is only what you read.
Is it not possible that "roids" can give different results in each individual who uses them?
I hear all this about eye hand coordination in hitting being enhanced by 'roids--who were the hitters they tested before and after using the 'roids to get these supposed test results?
Again we are back to suppositions not facts are we not ?
Be back later--time to prep dinner
Do you know for a fact that the cheeks are where they take the shots ?
Another note to think about: since no baseball players have admitted to taking steroids and gone thru tests to show what 'roids does and does not do for them how can you, any of you, say what happens as a final result of taking the "roids". It is only what you read.
Is it not possible that "roids" can give different results in each individual who uses them?
I hear all this about eye hand coordination in hitting being enhanced by 'roids--who were the hitters they tested before and after using the 'roids to get these supposed test results?
Again we are back to suppositions not facts are we not ?
Be back later--time to prep dinner
TR,
Aren't you the one who stated that steroid use causes rage? You've got to be consistent, even if you're wrong, TR.
Yes, I know for a fact that people like Bonds who use illegal steroids frequently injest themselves in the buttocks.
Steroids pretty much have similiar effects on everyone who uses them. It's why doctors prescribe specific steroids to people for similiar symptoms - they perform specific functions.
Enjoy dinner.
Aren't you the one who stated that steroid use causes rage? You've got to be consistent, even if you're wrong, TR.
Yes, I know for a fact that people like Bonds who use illegal steroids frequently injest themselves in the buttocks.
Steroids pretty much have similiar effects on everyone who uses them. It's why doctors prescribe specific steroids to people for similiar symptoms - they perform specific functions.
Enjoy dinner.