Do colleges cut players from the roster after the fall workouts? If yes, and the players transfer, can they move to a school after the fall semester and play for the new school that spring?
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Why?
@Consultant posted:Why?
I saw someone tweet that kids will be cut after fall practices and I was wondering how that works.
100% yes kids are cut in the fall. I don't know if they can transfer and play for another school in the spring but I have to think that answer is now yes. If you don't have to sit out you should be able to pull this off.
Yesterday I took a look at the 21 2020 kids who committed from my son's travel team. Of the 21, 4 have quit their teams, another 4 were non-rostered (not sure if they moved on from baseball), 13 are still on teams but only 4 saw any real-time as Freshman. Prepare your kids (the royal you not talking to you Francis) for the mental grind and choose a school you would want to be at without baseball.....
@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:Yesterday I took a look at the 21 2020 kids who committed from my son's travel team. Of the 21, 4 have quit their teams, another 4 were non-rostered (not sure if they moved on from baseball), 13 are still on teams but only 4 saw any real-time as Freshman. Prepare your kids (the royal you not talking to you Francis) for the mental grind and choose a school you would want to be at without baseball.....
Just curious - for the 8 (4+4) what type of schools or Divisions did they go to after High School?
My son was a 2019, so we have seen 2 years of college ball affected by so much more than baseball. I have watched numerous kids of different classes decide that the lifestyle required to play baseball was not for them. It is a grind that you have to love, while trying to figure out how to keep up with academics and other real life influences. I have seen high school studs being replaced on rosters by juco and transfer guys who have been promised a chance at somewhere different. College baseball is big business where high paid coaches have to figure out how to get positive results from 11.7 scholarships and results to keep their jobs when many of the high schoolers they bet on don’t develop, or someone decides they don’t deserve to develop. College baseball at the D1 level is brutal, and lots of kids face failure in sport for the first time ever. Politics plays a role, and as parents we learn we don’t have a vote. Fall is a time of change in most programs and some kids are just happier to move on also. My son is still where he started, but point of my post is that college baseball is a tough gig that a kid has to absolutely love or it will take a toll
@Francis7 posted:Just curious - for the 8 (4+4) what type of schools or Divisions did they go to after High School?
7 of 8 were D3. The one who was D1 was not going to a high-end D1. The common theme of the kids I know that have moved on was that they didn't play HS ball their senior year, they get to college and didn't see a lot of time (or any time) and basically lost their passion for the game. In all things (sports, work, life) you need to ride out the highs and the lows..... find that middle ground and grind it out. There you have my philosophy on life....
@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:7 of 8 were D3. The one who was D1 was not going to a high-end D1. The common theme of the kids I know that have moved on was that they didn't play HS ball their senior year, they get to college and didn't see a lot of time (or any time) and basically lost their passion for the game. In all things (sports, work, life) you need to ride out the highs and the lows..... find that middle ground and grind it out. There you have my philosophy on life....
Thanks. Pretty amazing that they didn't play senior year of HS and still got college offers.
@2019Lefty21 - real life influences being girls and partying?
@Francis7 posted:Thanks. Pretty amazing that they didn't play senior year of HS and still got college offers.
2020's were covid seniors. No one played.
@Francis7 posted:Thanks. Pretty amazing that they didn't play senior year of HS and still got college offers.
COVID, alot of 2020 kids didn't play their Sr. year
@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:2020's were covid seniors. No one played.
Ah...makes sense!!
I think of the 14 or so that came in there are 3 left. Some never belonged, some didn't perform, and some were gone for no good reason at all.
If I've learned anything it's that getting cut doesn't mean you can't play, it means you shouldn't be playing there. I've seen a kid cut after fall ball pitching in a super regional for an SEC program a year later. I've seen a kid who turned down Round 3 draft money get 4 at bats over two years.
Baseball math doesn't always make sense, sometimes it's best not to try and make sense of it.
D1 has a midyear transfer rule that prevents baseball players (and basketball) from participating immediately in the spring season. I don't think the new one-time waiver changes that.
@Francis7 posted:@2019Lefty21 - real life influences being girls and partying?
Sure, I guess that’s what you would call those things!
Of the sixteen players in my son’s travel team roster class, eight had transferred before junior year. Everyone went major conference except one Ivy who was also offered by Duke. One kid it was only because he didn’t like the environment (culture) and being so far from home. The other seven overreached and chose their dream schools. In two cases the players chose the only D1 making an offer versus several D2’s. Coaches make mistakes too.
In one of these cases the kid didn’t see the field freshman year. He transferred to another major conference team (multiple coaches can make mistakes), sat out a year, then found himself behind a new recruit, top prospect catcher. He covered up an arm injury to compete, blew his arm out and never played a day of college ball.
My son’s definition of a dream school was one where he felt he could get on the field and get a good education. He chose an up and coming program he felt would win more than it would lose.
So, if I am reading it correctly...kid is a 2021 HS grad. Goes to college in August 2021. Works out with the team in September and October. Gets cut in November 2021.
This means he's not playing baseball in Spring 2022?
If he drops out of the second semester in his "cut school," does he still lose a year of his 4 years of eligibility?
My understanding is the same as MidAtlanticDad. The one time transfer rule does not apply during the same school year. If a player goes to school in the fall and gets cut, he is not eligible to play that spring and his clock has started so he will have to take a redshirt year for the spring. That is why we preach know the pond and section of the pond. It is not just the level of play but the right school in that level of play. When son was being recruited, he got lots of P5 interest and lots of SEC interest but UT was the best fit for him not only because of the opportunity to play in the SEC but they did not have a lot of LHP's at the time. Several others that showed interest or offers had several to a bunch of LHP's. When you walk into the first class in the fall you are burning a year one way or another. Make sure it is the right classroom (campus, school, team). it is not just the right coach, or degree, or school you like but as I always say who/how many will you have to beat out to be able to put on a uniform to play against someone of a different uniform.
And there will be a lot of them this year that will be cut or told they are a redshirt. The average SEC school has 45-55 players in the fall. Most D1 schools are not far behind. A lot of kids will be having a tough choice in the next several weeks. A lot of parent's hearts are going to be broken.
@Francis7 posted:So, if I am reading it correctly...kid is a 2021 HS grad. Goes to college in August 2021. Works out with the team in September and October. Gets cut in November 2021.
This means he's not playing baseball in Spring 2022?
If he drops out of the second semester in his "cut school," does he still lose a year of his 4 years of eligibility?
You can transfer to a JUCO at winter break and play in the spring. Happens all the time.
Russ;
you can do both. Take 12 credits courses at the JC by remote and continue with your current 4 year school. Practice with the JC, if you have the talent to play.
Bob
IMHO, hopefully Rick Allen - Informed Athlete can provide context.
Here is the NCAA doc.
@PitchingFan - can a kid get a red shirt if he's cut? Or, is this something you need to broker with the coach? "Hey, don't cut me. Red shirt me and it's a win for me and a win for the school because I will stay in classes this spring."
@russinfortworth posted:You can transfer to a JUCO at winter break and play in the spring. Happens all the time.
Kinda sucks for the Juco kids who then lose spots because of the incoming mid year transfers.
@Francis7 posted:@PitchingFan - can a kid get a red shirt if he's cut? Or, is this something you need to broker with the coach? "Hey, don't cut me. Red shirt me and it's a win for me and a win for the school because I will stay in classes this spring."
"Hey, don't cut me. Red shirt me and it's a win for me and a win for the school because I will stay in classes this spring."
Being cut in the fall is like being fired from a job. You will not be counted as part the spring varsity headcount.
Now if the coach convinces you that he thinks you will be a great addition next year, then he might say "We would like you to redshirt this year".
It is now in the player's hands to determine the validity of said coaches words.
"Trust but Verify"
Francis, I get the feeling you’re already in “what if it doesn’t work out” mode before your son even gets to campus next fall. Once a decision is made the player and his support system has to be all in. College sports are too competitive just to get on the field to not be mentally all in. If, for some reason it doesn’t work out then sort through the options.
The best option, unless the player is a legit pro prospect is go where you would be ok if baseball it taken out of the mix. If baseball doesn’t work out another option is stay and be a regular student.
@Francis7 posted:So, if I am reading it correctly...kid is a 2021 HS grad. Goes to college in August 2021. Works out with the team in September and October. Gets cut in November 2021.
This means he's not playing baseball in Spring 2022?
If he drops out of the second semester in his "cut school," does he still lose a year of his 4 years of eligibility?
That's correct for kid who is transferring to a D1 midyear. As others say, that same kid could play at a juco in the spring (or D2/D3).
You may be mixing up the 4 seasons of participation and the 5 concurrent calendar years of eligibly for D1. You only lose participation seasons when you play in a game. Almost nothing stops the 5 year clock. I don't think there's any practical eligibility difference between getting cut and red-shirting. Why are you thinking that helps the player... because the kid gets to practice with the team?
Tagging @Rick at Informed Athlete in case he wants to correct or expand.
Thanks @MidAtlanticDad
@PABaseball posted:...................................................
Baseball math doesn't always make sense, sometimes it's best not to try and make sense of it.
There you have it. Words to live by.
Bosses make decisions all day every day, and a lot of the times it is not quantitative...it is qualitative.
@PitchingFan posted:My understanding is the same as MidAtlanticDad. The one time transfer rule does not apply during the same school year. If a player goes to school in the fall and gets cut, he is not eligible to play that spring and his clock has started so he will have to take a redshirt year for the spring. That is why we preach know the pond and section of the pond. It is not just the level of play but the right school in that level of play. When son was being recruited, he got lots of P5 interest and lots of SEC interest but UT was the best fit for him not only because of the opportunity to play in the SEC but they did not have a lot of LHP's at the time. Several others that showed interest or offers had several to a bunch of LHP's. When you walk into the first class in the fall you are burning a year one way or another. Make sure it is the right classroom (campus, school, team). it is not just the right coach, or degree, or school you like but as I always say who/how many will you have to beat out to be able to put on a uniform to play against someone of a different uniform.
And there will be a lot of them this year that will be cut or told they are a redshirt. The average SEC school has 45-55 players in the fall. Most D1 schools are not far behind. A lot of kids will be having a tough choice in the next several weeks. A lot of parent's hearts are going to be broken.
And there will be a lot of them this year that will be cut or told they are a redshirt. The average SEC school has 45-55 players in the fall. Most D1 schools are not far behind. A lot of kids will be having a tough choice in the next several weeks. A lot of parent's hearts are going to be broken.
It's really a shame this is where college baseball is today. This really breaks my heart for all those young men that have put so much into baseball to get to the college level. It's a shame for the parents too, who likewise, have invested so much.
I know there are a gazillion factors that go into college baseball, and I'm not getting into that because I think most of us realize that, but I do wish kids and parents were more educated on the process and, to some extent, that college coaches were more upfront and honest with kids. (I mean, recruiting and having an 8th/9th grader commit is a little ridiculous!) Combining more kid/parent education and more coach transparency may eliminate some of the heartache for these player and families.
I just hope that by the time my 2024 gets to this point, we (whole family) are armed with the knowledge and insight to make the best decision. Of course, thanks to much of the sage advice on these boards, I think we are heading in the right direction! 
@BaseballMOM05 - you might be clear of the mess with a 2024? For sure, the 2021s and 2022s have been screwed and we will see with the 2023s.
I have a 2022. And, while it would be easy to sit here and say this sucks, it's so unfair and why me...instead, I look at it as a merit badge. The kid got offers to play college baseball at a time where it was extremely difficult to get a college offer. Maybe the most difficult time ever to get a college baseball offer? Testament to his ability and drive. The world threw him a nasty curve and he didn't go down swinging.
@Francis7 That is an awesome attitude to have!! I wish your son the very best. You should be super proud of him, and he of himself, for being able to handle this Covid recruiting mess and get to play college ball! Can't wait to hear how next year goes!
PO Jr was a Dl scholarship LHP, with 20+ innings as a freshman. Sohp year was told he was redshirting. New JC lefty transfer and 2 LHP's back from TJ. Two weeks before season ends he's told not in their future next year. Had four year guaranteed scholly money. Decided he still wanted to play and not sit the bench. Transferred to Dll and started over 35 games, 200+ innings pitched and is 7th in all time wins only playing three years. Dropping down is way better then dropping out.
Baseball will tell you if you are good enough. By the way, that JC lefty transfer, was the opener for the Atlanta Braves the other night.
I know there are those who put a lot of it on the coaches but I'm not one of them. I think they are who they are and you have to do your homework. I wish more education of parents and players was the answer but my experience tells me it is not. I know so many who cannot see the writing on the wall. I see redshirt sophomores (3rd year players) who did not have success this fall who still think they can turn it around this spring and a small percentage might. But most will sit the bench again this spring as they have the first two years. I see parents who know there will be 50 players at their son's school who still believe that he can beat all odds and make the roster. I see players who know they are the last guy on the fall roster and their numbers are not near the top guys but they think they can persevere. So many believe that they the 1% who will overcome and a few are but the rest are the 99% that will waste a year. Parents and players are not realistic when it comes to their dreams. I know my son could have gone to a smaller school and been a starter but he wanted to compete with the best and got an opportunity to play on a CWS team. But we were realistic on his expectations and if he had not competed his freshman and sophomore years he would have been somewhere else by now.
@PitchingFan posted:I know there are those who put a lot of it on the coaches but I'm not one of them. I think they are who they are and you have to do your homework. I wish more education of parents and players was the answer but my experience tells me it is not. I know so many who cannot see the writing on the wall. I see redshirt sophomores (3rd year players) who did not have success this fall who still think they can turn it around this spring and a small percentage might. But most will sit the bench again this spring as they have the first two years. I see parents who know there will be 50 players at their son's school who still believe that he can beat all odds and make the roster. I see players who know they are the last guy on the fall roster and their numbers are not near the top guys but they think they can persevere. So many believe that they the 1% who will overcome and a few are but the rest are the 99% that will waste a year. Parents and players are not realistic when it comes to their dreams. I know my son could have gone to a smaller school and been a starter but he wanted to compete with the best and got an opportunity to play on a CWS team. But we were realistic on his expectations and if he had not competed his freshman and sophomore years he would have been somewhere else by now.
It is on the coaches. They are the ones that bring in 20 over the signing number. We give the coaches way too much benefit of the doubt. The coaches are the ones selling that dream to the kid and the family. What really sucks in baseball is that the players are paying most of the bill. In the SEC, most coaches are close to a million a year or more. The assistants are 200-300k a year. The coach will dump you in a second if he can find a better player. Then you are stuck with an apartment lease at your old school and trying to find a new home with yet another apartment lease and most likely no scholarship money if you are moving on mid year. I know too many people that have gone through it the last 12 months and more that are about to go through it in the next 4-6 weeks. All of them were studs out of high school too.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:D1 has a midyear transfer rule that prevents baseball players (and basketball) from participating immediately in the spring season. I don't think the new one-time waiver changes that.
That rule doesn’t apply if transferring from D1/D2 to JuCo. You are eligible to play in the spring if you fit that profile.
Sorry for repeat. Didn’t read everything above.
So it is the coaches fault that the players are willing to come even when they know there will be 15 kids who will not make the roster limits. I believe the coaches have some accountability but I also have talked to enough parents and players who knew what they were coming into. They could have gone another direction but CHOSE to try to be the exception. Most coaches do not cut players but they do tell them they will not play this spring and will have to work on certain things to earn a position. So how is it the coaches' fault that a player does not make a team? The recruiting cycle has become such a crazy world but it is still predictable. I have watched several recruiting classes for the past 5 years and if parents and players are doing their due diligence they will know how many are coming in each year. Not just the recruiting class of incoming freshmen but the transfers and juco kids by the time the fall starts. But they come anyway because they believe they are the ones who can make it. And you never know, they might be. We were part of that group. Son does not have the numbers to be a major part of an SEC/CWS team but he is and we were willing to take that chance. If he had not made it, we would have gone a different path and I would not have blamed the coaches. They gave him a chance to earn a spot which is their job. A winning coach will never guarantee a kid a spot but give him an opportunity to earn a spot.
@fenwaysouth posted:There you have it. Words to live by.
Bosses make decisions all day every day, and a lot of the times it is not quantitative...it is qualitative.
lMHO, it will be both the quantitative will a potential pattern of how the coach may or may not manage his roster, which is why most will go to the school's website to look at the roster.
The qualitative will be asking coaches and existing player's about the team and what is expected.
What percentage is quantitative vs qualitative will depend on what might help the consumer in making their decision.
@d-mac posted:It is on the coaches. They are the ones that bring in 20 over the signing number. We give the coaches way too much benefit of the doubt. The coaches are the ones selling that dream to the kid and the family. What really sucks in baseball is that the players are paying most of the bill. In the SEC, most coaches are close to a million a year or more. The assistants are 200-300k a year. The coach will dump you in a second if he can find a better player. Then you are stuck with an apartment lease at your old school and trying to find a new home with yet another apartment lease and most likely no scholarship money if you are moving on mid year. I know too many people that have gone through it the last 12 months and more that are about to go through it in the next 4-6 weeks. All of them were studs out of high school too.
The SEC is an outlier, for the most part one could probably say P5 schools hold different weight vs non P5.
Question, how many new recruits should a coach bring in on an annual basis?
Each division has their own way they deal with roster management.
As for blaming the coaches, isn't their job to get the best talent?
Did they pressure the Student Athlete and his family to come to the school with the opportunity to potentially play baseball?
That being said, there is a interesting series of articles on d1baseball.com discussing the roster management.
Remember most decisions are emotional or what we might think maybe not the most informed.
IMHO, the meaning of making the "most informed decision" will depend on the individual.