College Summer League Rosters

al

I fully agree. We played Hitters travel team in Summer and got to see how D1 guys deal.

Very different from small time programs.

We were recently discussing how he was dealing with the time constraints of D1 bb and came to a funny realization. His HS schedule was: 6am lifting, eat, classes, then either football/basketball practice, eat, hitting or pitching lessons, study til u drop and next day do it again.

So we were laughing that he actually  got to drop hitting and pitching lessons and football/basketball, and he is not noticing a change. This is just "what he does".

Will have to see how travel now will upset that rhythm but time will tell.

Also 50 games this Spring and 60 this Summer has to wear.

@adbono posted:

What a player should do the summer after his senior year in HS is dependent on a number of things. A pitcher that throws a lot of innings in the HS spring season won’t have the same needs as a kid that had limited mound time. A position player might need time to heal from an injury. Another might need as many at bats as possible. So there is no “one fits all” answer. But there are a couple of aspects that haven’t been discussed. One is the mental aspect of playing college baseball - and hardly any HS senior really knows what that is all about. Therefore it is helpful to spend time around college players before arriving on campus to observe the difference in attitude and work ethic displayed by college players vs the HS grab ass that they are accustomed to. Another difference maker is the type of college program that a HS player is reporting to. You can afford to be a little more cavalier about your preparation at most D3 programs than you can at most D1 programs. However, if you are advancing to a competitive program, that competes for championships, you best put your best foot forward on day one regardless of what number follows the D.

the bolded is spot on, the question is what is the best way and timeline for that to happen.

Some HS grads may be ready for it, however I don't think most June grads are ready to up and move to a host family play ball 6 days a week with travel, learn to be on their own, get / get in better shape while away, prepare for the actual school part of college and be in the best mental position to be successful in late august to start school.

I love college ball players, i have some amazing stories that have been shared with me from my son and couple of roommates after they graduated and the stunts they pulled both good and well not so good. Freshman get indoctrinated into that quickly enough but it isn't full bore from day 1 on campus. Some of the summer league stories I have been told are epic and they aren't pretty. The vast majority of incoming freshman aren't ready for upperclass men who are cutting loose for the summer with very limited mentorship.

The son you you have in May after the freshman year is entirely different then the one who you drop off in August. At least in the school year there are program support systems, coaches, academic advisors and so on. In the summer it is a free for all.

@adbono posted:

18U summer ball is fine for a kid that just wants to play one last summer with his buddies. But a kid that has committed (and signed a NLI) to play college baseball should play in a college summer league after high school graduation if at all possible - for all the reasons mentioned above, especially the mentions by Cabbagedad. Travel ball orgs sometimes put pressure on their HS senior college commits to stay in their org and play 18U and I think that’s a crappy thing to do as it really doesn’t have the kids’ best interest at heart. But then again, you could say that about many aspects of travel ball.

My son was heading to a mid-major as a PO.  He played 18U the summer after his senior year.  He had thrown quite a bit (and played SS) during his HS senior season so we figured that playing 18U and staying in "game shape" was enough.   I'll tell you that his 17U season was 100x better baseball, and more competitive than the 18U summer.  At 17U almost all of the kids were still actively pursueing a college baseball career....and he was on a very good organization, playing in good tourneys.   At 18U there was a mix of kids who, like my son were heading to college in the fall....but there was also quite a few that were just "playing one more year" before they hung up the cleats.  It really didn't hurt my son....he threw enough to be ready to go in the fall...and was a starter his freshman spring.....and he also got one last summer of playing some SS.  As a PO, I think it worked....if he had been going to hit everyday in college, he'd have been better off looking for something more competitive....maybe even a 21U league....just to see some older, more experience pitching

@old_school posted:

any coach basing roster decisions on a 2 mile run is a dumbass and you are going to have more concerning problems with him in the future so don't get to excited you can be pretty certain of that.

I didn't mean to imply that the coach is basing roster decisions on a 2-mile run.  My guess is that the 2-mile distance and 14 minute duration are inconsequential.  I think that run was largely about trust and about seeing who did the bare minimum.  Those are two foundational things that laid the first base layer on which everything else was added and they're not really things you can observe and test during the recruiting process.  The coach wanted to see what his team was made of on day 1.  I personally thinks that's awesome.  And my son actually failed the test.  A HUGE lesson for him.  And a coaching item for me to leverage when he comes to me complaining he isn't getting everything he wanted.  It all matters.  And unless you're mashing in ways no one else is, all this stuff gets factored in to the equation.  You never get a second chance to make a first impression is about as fundamentally true as it gets, right?

For the kids that had sub 14-minute results in the months leading up to reporting to campus, but then took 16, 17+ minutes once on campus, they clearly cheated.  Hoped on a bike or drove slowly in a car.  Lying to your future coach is not something I think can be overblown or overstated.  That has real staying power for most.  For kids like my son who came up just short (20 seconds in my son's case), it tells a coach that he did the bare minimum that was asked of him in the summer.  The coach gave out 1-2 running assignments a week in the summer.  I know that my son did those assignments and nothing else in terms of longer distance running.  Had he done more than just what the coach asked - like maybe run a couple 2-miles on his own every week - his chances of passing the test on day 1 would have improved significantly.  But my son hates that type of running, so he did the bare minimum.  And his 14:20 time then proved that to his new coach on day 1.  To each their own, but if I've got 35+ studs on my roster to choose from and can afford to make trust and extra efforts a factor, I'm doing it every time.

Couple of things:  UT does a 3-300 yard shuttle timed run first day back after Christmas every year.  Son has been worried every year because he is just not fast.  He put a lot of work in every year and this year was most confident.  You do not practice until you pass it.  His freshman year his roommate never passed it and finally quit.  But he also did nothing to get better at it.  Didn't work out, change eating habits, run more.  Just came in every day and tried to run it before practice.  Usually failed the first one and went home.  After about a week of it, the seniors took his stuff out of his locker and moved it to the old lockerroom, storage room.  Told him when he cared enough to get it done he could have his locker back.

The best advice I would give is that if the coaches want you to come in during the summer semester to get acclimated then do it.  The three years that son has been at UT and I have been following it closely at his and other P5 schools where he has buddies.  No player except one has played his freshman year with any consistency, most got let go after first year, that did not come in during summer.  It is a great time to learn how it is done from classes, study hall, weight room, workouts, practice schedule, terminology and build relationships.  Most do not take time to teach all of that after school starts and most P5 schools, the upper classmen will send you home if you mess up their workouts, weights, or practices.  I think it is seen as a disrespect to the program not to invest before school starts.

DanJ, I appreciate all your posts, because you are living this, and reporting in real time. Very valuable to others in the same position, and shows the degree of second-guessing by parents of college-aged players.  The site depends on anecdotes.  However, yours are incomplete, because you don't actually know how it's going to turn out. Maybe that 2-mile run will be the dividing line in how players are treated when the season gets going, and maybe it won't.  So it will be useful if you can update this thread in June, when you know how it turns out.

@anotherparent posted:

DanJ, I appreciate all your posts, because you are living this, and reporting in real time. Very valuable to others in the same position, and shows the degree of second-guessing by parents of college-aged players.  The site depends on anecdotes.  However, yours are incomplete, because you don't actually know how it's going to turn out. Maybe that 2-mile run will be the dividing line in how players are treated when the season gets going, and maybe it won't.  So it will be useful if you can update this thread in June, when you know how it turns out.

The dividing line will be performance and contribution. Period. Coaches get paid to win. Hit the ball or throw un-hittable strikes. Keep it simple.

@PitchingFan posted:

Couple of things:  UT does a 3-300 yard shuttle timed run first day back after Christmas every year.  Son has been worried every year because he is just not fast.  He put a lot of work in every year and this year was most confident.  You do not practice until you pass it.  His freshman year his roommate never passed it and finally quit.  But he also did nothing to get better at it.  Didn't work out, change eating habits, run more.  Just came in every day and tried to run it before practice.  Usually failed the first one and went home.  After about a week of it, the seniors took his stuff out of his locker and moved it to the old lockerroom, storage room.  Told him when he cared enough to get it done he could have his locker back.

Seems unnecessary. And I get it, I really do - the whole it's not about the running, it's about the preparation.

But not letting someone practice because they can't run ____ in _______ seconds or minutes is silly considering it's a game where you run max 360 feet at any given time. I'm as anti-coddling as they come but how about they put more time into his bullpens or his BP rounds and stop worrying about the running?

Makes absolutely no sense to me how coaches will only watch their top 20-25 guys practice but watch 26-40 on the roster like hawks when it comes time to condition.

Maybe that's why UT is competing for a CWS and we're on at large watch every year. Not sure, but from a lot of what I've heard from friends and guys in other programs it seems like there is a lot of time wasted on useless activities and a lot of ignoring guys who could become contributors if they got a little more attention

@PABaseball posted:

Seems unnecessary. And I get it, I really do - the whole it's not about the running, it's about the preparation.

But not letting someone practice because they can't run ____ in _______ seconds or minutes is silly considering it's a game where you run max 360 feet at any given time. I'm as anti-coddling as they come but how about they put more time into his bullpens or his BP rounds and stop worrying about the running?

Makes absolutely no sense to me how coaches will only watch their top 20-25 guys practice but watch 26-40 on the roster like hawks when it comes time to condition.

Maybe that's why UT is competing for a CWS and we're on at large watch every year. Not sure, but from a lot of what I've heard from friends and guys in other programs it seems like there is a lot of time wasted on useless activities and a lot of ignoring guys who could become contributors if they got a little more attention

This post is so incredibly on target! I hope that everyone reads it. So much of what coaches do (at the most competitive D1 programs) is not about baseball at all.  It’s about mind control and mf’ing their own players. It doesn’t go on everywhere but the more competitive the program the more likely that it’s going on. This was a serious problem at my alma mater and many spoke out about it, including me. It resulted in a coaching change but jury is out about whether things have improved in that regard or not. Kids don’t need to be belittled in order to compete and coaches that take that approach are lazy and insecure IMO. I played in a nationally ranked D1 program and our coach was a gentleman. He treated every player with respect - whether it was an All-American or whether it was me. Kids play their best when they are treated well and if they aren’t treated well they will never reach their potential. It boggles my mind that so many coaches don’t seem to understand this.

@PABaseball posted:

Seems unnecessary. And I get it, I really do - the whole it's not about the running, it's about the preparation.

But not letting someone practice because they can't run ____ in _______ seconds or minutes is silly considering it's a game where you run max 360 feet at any given time. I'm as anti-coddling as they come but how about they put more time into his bullpens or his BP rounds and stop worrying about the running?

Makes absolutely no sense to me how coaches will only watch their top 20-25 guys practice but watch 26-40 on the roster like hawks when it comes time to condition.

Maybe that's why UT is competing for a CWS and we're on at large watch every year. Not sure, but from a lot of what I've heard from friends and guys in other programs it seems like there is a lot of time wasted on useless activities and a lot of ignoring guys who could become contributors if they got a little more attention

I agree with this. There definitely needs to be minimum standards for fitness. However, some guys are more suited for speed and sprinting and others have better endurance.  No point forcing a square peg in a round hole. The greatest coaches know how to capitalize on and enhance what they have.

@PABaseball posted:

Seems unnecessary. And I get it, I really do - the whole it's not about the running, it's about the preparation.

But not letting someone practice because they can't run ____ in _______ seconds or minutes is silly considering it's a game where you run max 360 feet at any given time. I'm as anti-coddling as they come but how about they put more time into his bullpens or his BP rounds and stop worrying about the running?

Makes absolutely no sense to me how coaches will only watch their top 20-25 guys practice but watch 26-40 on the roster like hawks when it comes time to condition.

Maybe that's why UT is competing for a CWS and we're on at large watch every year. Not sure, but from a lot of what I've heard from friends and guys in other programs it seems like there is a lot of time wasted on useless activities and a lot of ignoring guys who could become contributors if they got a little more attention

do pitchers ever need to run more then 80'? I mean from the rubber to backing up home or 3rd is the farthest they ever move and i get it as well what it is about, I actually think the concept is very good just the tool and methodology to implement it is silly and nonproductive. Think how many great baseball players couldn't play on that squad....Prince fielder and Colon immediately jump to mind. Granted you can't have 35 of them but zero is stupid.

Man, I feel like I did a really poor job of articulating my point, my son's situation and my son's coach.  The 2-mile run thing is done now.  It was really just a week 1 deal - day 1 for 2/3 of the team, 2 days for all but 2 kids and 5 days for those last 2.  And no kid who failed was prevented from practicing and taking part in all activities. The "punishment" was having to keep running it every day until you passed.  Personally, I think it was mostly about trust, ensuring none of his recruits got lazy over the summer and to set a serious tone from day 1 that playing there would not be easy.  Again, I dig the concept even though my son failed the first day.  I promise he won't fail when he reports this coming fall and I think that's an important lesson and a big win for my son.

While I have never spoken personally with the coach about the 2-mile deal, I did meet for hours with him on our visit and have had multiple conversations with him since then.  I have a solid feel for who he is and the way he runs his program.  For starters, speed and versatility are hallmark pieces of his program.  He doesn't recruit 1B or PO's.  He told me "why would I recruit guys who can only do one thing?"  He is not a fan of high school POs at all as he prefers guys who are mentally used to competing every day, so his pitching staff is almost exclusively made up of 2-way guys.  They only become POs once they get to college and only after he's evaluated them more and bounced that up against the needs of the team.  You may not care for his particular approach, but considering he routinely sends 2/3 of his roster on to D1s, regularly has top 20 team GPAs in the NJCAA, has won 30+ games each season for 10  years straight, is the winningest coach in the history of the program and has very low negative attrition, there's an argument to made that his methods are quite effective and attractive.  I want a tough road for my kid so long as it's fair.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

"He doesn't recruit...PO's".. , regarding competition.  A PO who competes every single pitch vs. a position player who competes 20-30 plays/at bats a week.  I'd say it's at least equal on that level.  Sounds more like a philosophy he just made up in his head rather than one that has any sound reasoning.  IF he just said he needs to make sure he has flexibility on the roster, I'd take that...but I'd take the mental toughness and compete level of a pitcher over a position player any day of the weeks.   Besides, compete level is really an individual thing, not a position thing.

Despite being a former PO, there is no bias in that opinion whatsoever

I will clarify and defend the many coaches that are being attacked here.  Any coach who does not have a minimum qualification of fitness is probably not successful at any level.  Not saying there aren't the flukes but come on.  I'm 56 years old and way overweight.  I decided to try it.  I was within 7 seconds of passing it the first time.  I don't think I would have gotten #2 or #3 of the fitness test without a little more rest in between but I'm 56 and overweight.  In the three years son has been there only 1 guy has not gotten it and as I stated he did not do anything to get better.  If you want to attack this mindset, do you think the guy who won't lose some weight and do extra workouts and run to get his qualifier in will help you on the mound at any point.  He is not a competitor.  Each year the number who do not make it on the first try has gone down.  This year it was only 1 pitcher who was a late transfer and was not there in the fall.  You do it in January because guys should have had all fall to prepare.  UT is one of the fittest teams because of the preparation, that is probably why the Cubs stole our baseball strength and conditioning coach.

I don't buy the mindgames stuff but I reckon it is to some extent.  If you won't prepare to do something that you know is coming for 4 months you won't prepare to compete.  The only run 80 feet thing is not realistic because to pitch you have to use your legs for 7-9 innings.  If you want to be the best you have to push your players to be the best.

Normally those guys who say spend more time on the bottom guys are connected to the bottom guys.  I know for a fact that almost all top D1 coaches would not turn down a guy who wanted extra help in bullpens or bp sessions.  The guys who won't compete off the field don't really want to compete on the field.  It is not that they have not been given a chance, they have not take the chances they were given.  When son was trying to be a 2-way guy he was at the field every night for normally 3 hours, many times by himself, getting his reps in to compete.  Now he uses the same time trying to be the best reliever he can be.  He wants to be the first LHP out of the bullpen each game and that desire takes drive.  He was at the field every day this week for 8 hours.

Pitching fan:

very true. During the Area Code games I would "wander" into the dugout and then the bullpen and listen to the players talk about themselves, complain and make excuses.

A few would analyze the situation on the field and prepare for their next AB or Mound appearance.

All products of their previous 2 years of life and baseball.

Their baseball future "very predictable"!! College Coaches and Pro Scouts study "body language"! We call it "non verbal" communication.

"Test running", a form of "non-verbal communication" has been a Coach's communication to his team for 50 years.

Bob

@HSDad22 posted:

"He doesn't recruit...PO's".. , regarding competition.  A PO who competes every single pitch vs. a position player who competes 20-30 plays/at bats a week.  I'd say it's at least equal on that level.  Sounds more like a philosophy he just made up in his head rather than one that has any sound reasoning.  IF he just said he needs to make sure he has flexibility on the roster, I'd take that...but I'd take the mental toughness and compete level of a pitcher over a position player any day of the weeks.   Besides, compete level is really an individual thing, not a position thing.

Despite being a former PO, there is no bias in that opinion whatsoever

And when you get your own team to skipper, you're free to stock it with as many HS POs as you'd like.  If it's as simple as "something he made up in his head" then man, did he ever get lucky.  Like REALLY lucky!  THIS lucky:

Routinely sends 2/3 of his roster on to D1s, regularly has top 20 team GPAs in the NJCAA, has won 30+ games each season for 10  years straight, is the winningest coach in the history of the program and has very low negative attrition.

Try and find more than 20 Jucos in the country that are just as "lucky."  Feel free to dislike his approach, but if you're going to argue it's not a good one, you're going to have to work a little harder than that considering the results.  Again, he does have POs on his roster.  It's guys who have been POs PRIOR to college that he isn't a fan of.  My kid is short and Altuve is amazing, but you won't find me questioning the reasoning of coach's who prefer bigger kids to smaller ones.

Just FYI, the 2 High School kids that we took on our Valley League team were placed by their College coaches.    ANY high school player that is heading for college baseball should talk with one of their soon-to-be college coaches about what to do for the pre-college summer.  Another point sorta related: One major D-1college coach that we spoke with said their policy is to give their freshmen the fall and spring to show what they can do. If they don't look like they can add to the program (i.e., help the coaches win games) after that, they will be told in their exit interview that they should look for another school. Seems very harsh, downright cold, and I am sure they aren't all this way, but rule #1 is that college coaches want to win games.

HokieONE

Did you attend the recent College Baseball Coaches Convention? Did the Summer Leagues have a meeting? Any new changes? What are your opinions of the new transfer rules?

Bob