Curveballs

The curve has inaccurately been blamed for youth pitcher arm problems. Dr. Fleisig of ASMI (founded by Dr. Andrews) researched youth pitchers, curves and arm problems. He could not come up with evidence a properly thrown curve places any more stress on an arm than a properly thrown fastball. The problem is a majority of young pitchers do not throw a mechanically sound curve placing excess stress on their arms. Dr. Fleisig found the number one cause of arm problems in youth pitchers is overuse.

From an Umpire's perspective: throw strikes! Period. At 13 yrs old throwing strikes should be more important than developing a curve ball. Location location location. Lastly, there are 8 other fielders out there to assist the pitcher.

my son threw 90% CBs. He is 23 and no arm problems ever. He perfected a couple CBs at 10-11yo and days they are less stresful than a FB.
If you get an Ump like Therefump you might want to rethink the CBs with him and guys like him.

My son's pitching coach will teach pitchers curve balls when they can demonstrate a repeatable arm slot and consistant body control. He has taught it to 10U players with success.

He made my son wait till 14U because he simply didn't have a repeatable delivery.

I agree with the comments on strikes. I also believe the first offspeed pitch to learn is a change. I believe a properly thrown curve ball is a safe pitch. I believe an IMPROPERLY thrown curve ball is a dangerous pitch. I believe mechanics break down when a pitcher is tired and the ability to throw a curve ball with good mechanics gets dangerous when the pitcher gets tired.

My son's pitching coach was a MLB pitcher who threw FB & Chg. He also had Tommy John surgery. He'd tell you that FB / Chg is supposed to be safe and that the definition of a bad pitch for an arm is the last pitch thrown before an injury occurs and that isn't the root cause of the problem.

If the kid can throw it with good mechanics and was properly taught, let him throw it. 10 curves a game? I don't think its a big deal, as long as he's doing it correctly. 40 curves in 60 pitches? Probably a bad idea. They should learn to throw the FB and work off that with the change up / curve. Most MiLB programs work that way, so 13U shouldn't be any different.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
my son threw 90% CBs. He is 23 and no arm problems ever. He perfected a couple CBs at 10-11yo and days they are less stresful than a FB.
If you get an Ump like Therefump you might want to rethink the CBs with him and guys like him.

BHD - this advice seems reckless to me on a number of fronts.

Using anecdotal evidence of one is not proof of anything. Maybe your son was merely lucky using an improper technique Moreover, maybe he is having arm problems and you just do not want to see or hear of it.

I think Orel Hershiser had the best advice for young pitchers. He said no curveballs until 16 or older. Said the key was to learn how to locate the fastball - up, down, inside, and out, within or near the strike zone. After mastering the fastball, then offspeed pitches could be added to the mix as the player matured.

I am familiar with the ASMI study but I still use caution with the CB.

My step-son (14 years old) had arm pain this year and my wife took him to a sports doctor. The doctor has treated several baseball players (his injury ended up being a strained labrum (probably more from pitching in cold weather). The doctor told my wife that he should not throw the CB for a couple of years. He also said that players should take at least 2 months off per year (no throwing).

There was an article in Baseball America earlier this year where the Oregon State (I think) pitching coach stated that pitchers should throw 2/3 fastballs. My feeling is that young pitchers should work on developing their FB and CU because that will get them to the next level. I have noticed that pitchers that have too many pitches in their arsonal haven't developed their primary pitches as much as pitchers that have fewer (every pitcher is different).

CB pitchers at pitching distances less than 60'6" will have to redevelop their CB every time they move distances any way.

I don't think it's bad to do it in moderation as long as you get a pro - ie. pitching coach - to approve that he is throwing it correctly. I got the green light for my son to throw his from multiple resources before I let him throw it.

I also agree that a good fastball and CU should be developed either before or while you throw the breaking ball. You will need them as you get older. My son, at 10, had good command of his FB and threw a wicked CU. He would corkscrew batters into the ground with it. That FB/CU combo worked great for him until he got to be about 12.

The problem was that he threw harder than most at his age. Not many could catch up to his FB. When guys did connect, hit balls were to right field. Throwing a CU would bring the speed down to their bat speed. He did develop a breaking ball that was pretty effective and would use it as his K pitch. CU was still used on occasion with some of the bigger, stronger hitters he faced, but overall for 12, 13 & 14 it was tough to use the CU alot. We did continue to work on the CU in lessons and bull pen sessions.

This year he is a freshman in HS. He pitched as a starter for his varsity team. His CU has been VERY valuable. He has thrown the CU way more than the breaking ball. He pitched against the (at the time) #1 team in the largest division in the state (they wound up the season at #3). He lost to them 1-0, but only threw 3 breaking balls the whole game. It was all about the FB/CU combination. At the HS varsity level, hitters can adjust to any speed fastball, so you really have to keep the batters out of their rythm with the CU. BTW, he is throwing mid 80's FB, low 70's CU.

My point is that I don't think there is a problem with throwing a breaking ball at the earlier ages as long as you make sure you are throwing it in a way that is mechanically sound and you continue to work on the FB and CU. They are both very valuable pitches.

bballman, I agree the CU is very valuable and should be learned early. 13 year olds have holes in their swings big enough to drive trucks through. Throwing all curve balls is a waste of time and arms. Find the holes and hit the holes in the strike zone and he will be succesful. Painting the black at the knees should be learned as soon as possible.

Almost no one can be successful in the long run without developing and establishing a fastball. If you can't establish a fastball, then find another position on the field.

EDIT: Establishing a fastball after moving to the "big" field is a long and grueling process for many, but unavoidable. If it was easy everybody would do it.

This seems like a great topic for debate and will always be relevant here on the hsbbweb. I am going to link this into the General Forum. Love to hear everyone's opinion on this topic.

Here's my point, What is the next level? H.S. maybe? This kid isn't going pro. I'm a proud dad but c'mon. He's got a change up, but I think there aren't as many places in the count you can throw it as a curveball. With the bats they have today, a fastball will get you pounded out of the game by the 10 run rule unless you can locate it EVERYTIME. Miss once, and it's in the woods. If he was going to be a highly sought after recruit, I would look at it differently. But how many pitchers does the typical H.S. team really use? If there are 2 kids better than him, he won't be pitching after next year anyway.

My son 15 freshman is more of a fb pitcher than anything right now. He does throw a changeup and cu but bread and butter is his fb 2-4 seam. He is very accurate and has good mvt. What I have noticed (and I am not as experinced as many posters) in summer ball and HS is the kids who rely on fb more and have a above avg speed (my son at 15 as of March 28 throws low 80's which is very good but not outstanding) are more reliable then the junk pitchers who seem to have great stuff or can't throw a strike , many became junk pitchers because they don't have a good fastball so they can't fallback on it. I know there are kids who throw junk and are pretty accurate but I am saying "in general" and "from what I've seen". The best thing for my son was that he isn't fast enough to throw it by a good hitter so he has stressed location and mvt. and so far so good.

A few things:

Why learn to throw a curve at any distance other than 60ft 6 inches ?--learning at a shorter distance does no good as he will have to learn anew on the fullsize field---a kid from 12 to 15 with a decent fastball and good location and movement does not need a curveball

HS teams will use a number of pitchers. My experience is that they will have at least 3 starters for region/conference games. These starters may go the complete game, but there are many times when you need relief pitching. So, there are two more guys you need. Lots of times when the teams play in non region/conference games, they like to start guys who don't normally start.

Just like anywhere else, you can't have too many pitchers. One of the downfalls of our HS team this year was that we didn't have enough quality pitching. We had 3 starters (freshman and 2 sophmores), and after that we had one kid who could come in and pitch reasonably well. He wound up starting several games. After that we struggled. We really needed more relief guys.

I wouldn't downplay the need for quality pitchers on a HS team. Usually the teams with the deepest pitching staffs are the ones who perform the best.

CD all the pitchers in our area threw CBs at a young age. They were taught properly. In fact it was Tom House that said CBs if thrown properly will not stress your arm. All the guys who threw hard at 14- 15 were having arm problems. Several of the hard throwers had TJ surgery.
The [roblem is that once people get a thought in their head about CBs being harmful they can't admit that they were operating on misinformation. Evem ASMI has shown that they are misinformed.
My son would probably not have played college ball without his CB.
The other thing is he also had a great CU and he struck out a lot of elite players with his FB including guys who played D1 and pro ball. That includes a guy who played at CC and now is with the Angels. 3 CBs for 3 strikes.

I've seen kids at 13 that were so-so, only to grow and mature into solid prospects by 16. So how do you really know for sure?

My analysis is simple: I put my left hand on my right elbow and mimic the curve ball motion; the torque tells me it is more stressful than the fastball motion.

A fastball,a changeup, and control will get a pitcher through for a long while before they need to develop Uncle Charlie.

In Virginia, there's a tall sophmore lefty throwing 88-89 that has college offers (unofficial of course, but the verbal commitments are already out there). He is still only allowed to throw fastballs and changeups. In my humble opinion, he has a very smart dad and coach.

bballman, I agree that they need it. I'm saying realistically, they're gonna play the way your team is playing;using a couple. They're playing to win. Period. They're gonna throw those studs whenever they can and could care less about their arms. I believe location is everything. I just don't like losing because we throw one fastball in the zone to each hitter and he lines it in a gap. I'd rather mix in a "few" breaking balls to make them respect my pitcher. Then they have to think a little bit. Now they aren't sitting on a FB. I think if you throw one breaking ball per at bat, and throw about 12 pitches per inning, yopu're not hurting the arm. I believe it's throwing them in practice and living on them during a game that does the damage. Just wondering if anybody else agrees.

46, I agree to an extent. Yes, you do have to have a good reliable fastball and you have to be able to spot it. But, we play in a region in which there are 23 D-1 signees and a bunch of other guys signed to other colleges. You can't just throw well placed fastballs.

When Bballson threw too many fastballs in a row, he got hit. Not always hard, but the ball was getting through. When he mixed things up, even with just the FB and CU, he was successful. When he left the FB up, it got hammered more times than not. I can't tell you how many times he threw 3 or 4 fastballs in a row to a hitter and had the last one served up for at least a single. Granted, many of them were not hit hard, but they would hit a single off the handle on an inside pitch, or off the end of the bat into opposite field on a FB at the knees on the outside corner.

The biggest thing I preached to him all season was mix up your pitches. Change speed. If coach/catcher calls too many fastballs, shake him off and change speeds. Must be done. He was throwing probably 84-85 by the end of the season. That is enough to blow a fastball by one of these big guys if they are looking for a CU, but not if you throw them 3 FB's in a row, no matter where you put them.

4seamer. I agree with that. As I stated earlier, I personally don't have a problem with throwing breaking balls at that age as long as you are doing it right and as long as you don't rely on it without continuing to develop your FB and CU.

Like I said, my son relied more on the FB/breaking ball combo at that time due to his FB velo.

By the way, our HS coaches were very concerned about pitchers arm health. Starts were generally 1x per week. All pitchers had pitch counts. Rest between starts was a big deal. I really didn't see too many guys overthrown. Realize that in HS, you generally only play 3 games a week. Unless you have rainouts to make up and you have to squeeze a bunch of games in a short period of time. In that case, you will need more pitchers.

TR my son had no problem adjusting to the larger field. Once you have the feel for the CB it is easy to adjust.
A great CB is next to unhittable.

We were very aware of all the issues and we kept a close eye on any pain. There just wasn't any pain. He did all the right things based on professional advice. Our local organization alway brought pros in for training to teach kids proper fielding etc. Maybe we just had better advice than most. This also includes a Chyropractor who worked with the Rangers, Tom House and Nolan Ryan.
Pretty easy to cxall something reckless when you don't know any better.
Pitching is risky. You take the risk with knowledghe.

I would also point out that this pedjudice against CBs exists in college aswell as HS.

Bobblehead

I respectfully disagree

Speaking as a hitters dad to a pitchers dad the toughest pitch for a good hitter is the slider--

Hokieone that doesn't mimmic the stress on a properly thrown CB.

TR a slider is a great pitch but that is harder on a young arm than a CB.
A great CB falls off the table infront of the plate.
My son's new coaches wouldn't call his CB but called for his cut FB. My son liked the pitch but said it was more stressful than his CB. He pleaded with him to call his CB which was his out pitch. I actually noticed the annoncers not remarking on his CB and mentioned it to him. He said the coach wouldn't call it even though he asked him to. The strange part is he was calling it at the beginning of the year and he had great success with it

quote:

I would also point out that this pedjudice against CBs exists in college aswell as HS.

I just don't agree with that. I think (most) colleges throw too many curve balls. Scouts have told me the same. Minor league instructors have told college pitchers the same.

And I agree with TR. Slider is the hardest pitch to hit. (How 'bout that TR?...we agree! Better reconsider your thought knowing that! ).

quote:

Posted by Dad04:
Almost no one can be successful in the long run without developing and establishing a fastball. If you can't establish a fastball, then find another position on the field.

Best comment on this thread.

What do you define as an established FB?

bobblehead

I wasnt talking about the toughest pitch to throw but the toughest pitch to hit as you claimed the curveball is---why do you continue to doubletalk in your psts when you get questioned?

I love the curve ball debate...

Two things I've observed (one baseball related, one not.)

- Contrary to popular belief, the US Constitution, in fact, does not contain the text, Separation of Church and State. Many people would lead you to believe it does, when in fact, it does not.

- Also contrary to popular belief, the ASMI study never makes a recommendation that the curve ball is a safe pitch for a youth pitcher.

Both are subjective assumptions...

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
What do you define as an established FB?

Consistent command of a 2 seam or 4 seam pitch that is relatively hard to hit due to velocity, location, movement or a combination of all three.

TR thye thread was about CBs.
I simply stated that the slider is a great pitch but it is harder on a youg arm than a CB properly thrown. No double talk.

quote:

Consistent command of a 2 seam or 4 seam pitch that is relatively hard to hit due to velocity, location, movement or a combination of all three.

Agree.

Let me add a little more from a conversation with one of the area scouts out here.

If a hitter can eliminate a pitch (to worry about) from a given pitcher, advantage hitter. If the pitch the hitter can eliminate is the fastball due to lack of command of it, double advantage to hitter.

Here are some quotes by Dr. Flesig from ASMI on youths and throwing the curveball. They were taken out of a thread on the ASMI web site debating when youths should or should not start throwing a curveball.

quote:

Although ASMI has tried to prove that the curveball is more dangerous than the fastball for youth pitchers, we have not been able to prove this. My personal opinion is that we will never prove the curveball to be more dangerous than the fastball. That being said, I think we all agree that the youngest pitchers should get their fastball going first ("master it", "dominate", whatever term you want to use).

quote:

Correct. That is why it is valuable to have both biomechanical studies and clinical outcome studies. In addition to the biomechanical study linked above, I also suggest reading this retrospective outcome study:
http://ajs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/full/34/6/905
This study compared 16-20 year olds who are healthy pitchers vs. an age-matched group who had surgery. There was a big difference in overuse, but no difference in when they started throwing curveballs. Check it out.

quote:

ASMI's epidemiologic research has shown again and again that the young pitchers who pitch too much in competition are the ones who end up on the surgery table before they are old enough to buy a beer. "Too much" includes pitches per game, pitches per season, months per year, and multiple leagues.

Somewhat surprisingly, biomechanical research has shown the curveball produces similar, or slightly less, load on the elbow than the fastball does - even for youth. For more details, read this scientific article:
Dun S, Loftice J, Fleisig GS, Kingsley D, Andrews JR. A Biomechanical Comparison of Youth Baseball Pitches: Is the Curveball Potentially Harmful? Am J Sports Med 36(4):686-692, 2008.

Here is a post to the thread if you want to read it in full:

http://asmiforum.proboards.com...ay&thread=569&page=1

04 my son had that but found the CB easier on his arm. It was also less hittable. Approx 10% of his pitches were other than an off speed pitch. His CU was a modified Circle change and also had a late break. He would throw it at any count for strikes. At 16 he was pitching against college and pro hitters with great success. He topped out at 83 and was heavily scouted back then. Interesting they all wanted more velo and kept saying more LT. He is now at 87mph and not as good a pitcher as he used to be.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:

quote:

Consistent command of a 2 seam or 4 seam pitch that is relatively hard to hit due to velocity, location, movement or a combination of all three.

Agree.

Let me add a little more from a conversation with one of the area scouts out here.

If a hitter can eliminate a pitch (to worry about) from a given pitcher, advantage hitter. If the pitch the hitter can eliminate is the fastball due to lack of command of it, double advantage to hitter.

Agreed. If you struggle locating a pitch, hitters will sit on the stuff you can locate. Generally the secondary pitches are more difficult to command.

I've seen the guys who throw too many secondary pitches get clobbered when they "don't have" their pitch. Some days you have better stuff than other days. Guys who can consistently paint corners with fastballs tend to not get lit up too bad on off days.

An observation; Pitchers are less consistent in amateur in athletics than in pro ball. I mean pitchers generally improve their consistency after they turn pro. I don't know why. They just do. Velocity increases and command improves. Their secondary pitches get better. This is where talent really shows up to maximize potential.

My son is in a study concerning pitchers arm injury. I have talked to these people and they also find no relationship to injury and the liberal use of CBs. I would also add that many pitchers in these studies may not throw a CB with great mechanics. Even with that there is no relationship to injury throwing CBs. Also the researchers were surprised by the results which indicates they went into thye study with a bias.

The OP specified the age of 13 years and so I shall assume that he is playing on the full sized diamond.

There is no mention about the variety of pitches this player has. But if he can averae 12 pitches per inning he is doing well.


The properly thrown curve ball eith a 12/6 away from the pitcher rotation is no more stressful on the arm than a fast ball.

Since this pitcher is throwing only 12 per inning, I suspect he has been well coached and already has the basic pitches for age. Those are a 2 seam and 4 seam fast ball and a change up. Since he is on the full sized diamond and throwing curves it appears he can throw them at this distance. And since he is only throwing 12 per game in a 7 inning game he would be throwing 1/7 or just under 15% curves.

For those who are being cautious about limiting this pitch I would ask why that is so? I see nothing in the OP to criticize the coach of pitcher.

bballman, They may not be able to prove a curveball is more dangerous, but they couldn't prove O.J. did it either.

I know this though. The curveball will never replace the fastball.

Come on Dad04, you're going to compare the curveball debate with O.J.? Stretching it a little far aren't you?

Said it before, I'll say it again. FB/CU combination should be mastered and worked on and are an extremely deadly combo. I also say that there is nothing wrong with throwing a breaking ball properly and in the right situations.

The only problem you could have is that a pitcher relies too heavily on that pitch and does not develop the FB and CU. He will be in trouble as he gets older.

bballman-- I agree that you do need to mix it up, espically agianst top notch hitters. What I was trying to say is I would take a superior fb pitcher with average junk to a junk pitcher with an average fb -- from what I've seen they are more reliable and walk less batters where junk pitchers can be very dominating when "on", but lots of walks and hits when not. Agian just what I've observed up to this point in my sons teams and ones we've played. (we have played some of the best)
You can't teach velocity on a fb

04 this is where the problem lies. You assume that developing a great CB prcludes developing a good FB. They coexist.
I use my son as an example of a young pitcher who could use his CB as his main pitch and mix in a good FB and a great CU. You can play at a high level without at least 2 great pitches.

46, OK. Junk pitchers can be effective at times, against the right teams. Even (maybe even more so) the very good teams, but once those teams dial in on the speed, the junker could get shelled.

No problem 46, just wanted to make a point about mixing it up.