2024 son wants to attend camp at a mid major D1 program this winter. This school still has openings for his class. His Achilles heal is his 60 time...he's still right at 7.0 seconds. He's a corner outfielder and has an elite bat. His secondary position is 2B. Would you send him to the camp or wait until he's sub 7 sec?
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Is 7.0 his best or his average? When was the last time he hit that number?
@TerribleBPthrower posted:Is 7.0 his best or his average? When was the last time he hit that number?
That is his recorded best and he currently can achieve that if asked to go run today. He consistently falls between 7.0-7.1 when doing multiple attempts.
Have the coaches had any conversations with your son? Would the camp require a hotel and airfare? Where is the school on his target list? And one last one to consider (I don't expect an answer but you should think about it), will this impact your ability later to pay for another camp down the road?
One of the things my son considered (on the advice of a recruiter and coaches) a 2 day camp is 3-4 days you're not in the gym or training. This time of year the kids are limited by the calendar to a specific number of days where they can work towards their goals before the spring practices start.
If the goal of the camp is to be discovered I'd save your time and money. If that isn't the goal then I would consider the other factors I mentioned above.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:Have the coaches had any conversations with your son? Would the camp require a hotel and airfare? Where is the school on his target list? And one last one to consider (I don't expect an answer but you should think about it), will this impact your ability later to pay for another camp down the road?
One of the things my son considered (on the advice of a recruiter and coaches) a 2 day camp is 3-4 days you're not in the gym or training. This time of year the kids are limited by the calendar to a specific number of days where they can work towards their goals before the spring practices start.
If the goal of the camp is to be discovered I'd save your time and money. If that isn't the goal then I would consider the other factors I mentioned above.
No airfare or hotel required. Email conversation only (direct personal ones that aren't mass emails). From the conversations, they are aware of him...just need an opportunity to actually "see" him. This camp is affordable and won't impact our ability to pay for another camp down the road. It's a half-day camp and will not impact his off-season training. It may impact his availability schedule down the road, as there seems to be a lot of college camps held in August.
We have concerns that the 7.0sec 60 time would scratch him off their list. Could a 7.0 time be negative exposure at a camp?
Most programs are now on 2024s.
If he has an elite bat, (not sure what that entails) and if it's not too far away why would you hesitate?
My son ran a 7.07 the summer before his junior year and PG Jr. Nationals (he did not run his best), ran a 6.7 a PG Nationals and 6.57 at East Coast Pro. They are still growing/developing so I would not let a 7.0 keep him from going to a camp of a school that has an interest. Especially if he takes good routes on balls (tell him to actually make plays on balls when they are shagging...not every single one but enough so that they can see what he does in the outfield) and has good instincts on the basepaths.
If he really has an “elite” bat a tenth of a second on his 60 time isn’t going to matter.
Is your travel coach involved in recruiting? What does he say? He may have a better sense of the school's interest than your son can get from emails.
@anotherparent posted:Is your travel coach involved in recruiting? What does he say? He may have a better sense of the school's interest than your son can get from emails.
He thinks it's better to wait because an OF should be sub 7.0
@Momball11 posted:He thinks it's better to wait because an OF should be sub 7.0
That’s not good advice if your son really has an “elite” bat. No college coach worth his salt is gonna say, “ I really like the way that kid squares up the baseball. He appears to be an elite hitter. But I just can’t recruit him until he shaves a tenth of a second off that 60 time.” Good case in point would be Sonny D. That kid can’t run out of his shadow. But he can really hit. Hit tool trumps all.
@adbono posted:That’s not good advice if your son really has an “elite” bat. No college coach worth his salt is gonna say, “ I really like the way that kid squares up the baseball. He appears to be an elite hitter. But I just can’t recruit him until he shaves a tenth of a second off that 60 time.” Good case in point would be Sonny D. That kid can’t run out of his shadow. But he can really hit. Hit tool trumps all.
This is what I was thinking and that's why I figured I should get multiple opinions.
@Momball11 posted:This is what I was thinking and that's why I figured I should get multiple opinions.
Sometimes it’s hard to figure out who to listen to. I don’t know anything about your particular travel ball coach. But I have coached 20 seasons of travel ball and I know a lot about travel ball coaches in general. More than not, they are not as tuned into college recruiting as they want you to think they are.
I agree with this - but at the least, in a situation like this, I would hope that the travel coach has contacted the coach at the school about your son, to gauge interest. When he says to wait, he is likely telling you that he's not willing to recommend your son to that school now. He may have previous experience with how these schools recruit. Or conversely, he may not know much at all. I would suggest that you have a detailed conversation with him about your son's recruiting, because, at the end of the day, he's a person who will tell college coaches whether your son can play at that level - even if he's wrong, I'd think you need to know where he stands. And, if you don't trust him, then you need to find someone you do trust.
I say this because my son was similar with the 60-time, and the travel coach kept saying "get it lower" without really explaining why - he also kept saying "could be mid-major D1" which is the slipperiest statement in high school baseball. We were too shy to ask. He's at a D3.
When you say your son is an elite hitter, do you mean hitting is his best tool? Hits for power (exit velo)? or average? Has a high batting average, gets on base a lot?
@anotherparent posted:I agree with this - but at the least, in a situation like this, I would hope that the travel coach has contacted the coach at the school about your son, to gauge interest. When he says to wait, he is likely telling you that he's not willing to recommend your son to that school now. He may have previous experience with how these schools recruit. Or conversely, he may not know much at all. I would suggest that you have a detailed conversation with him about your son's recruiting, because, at the end of the day, he's a person who will tell college coaches whether your son can play at that level - even if he's wrong, I'd think you need to know where he stands. And, if you don't trust him, then you need to find someone you do trust.
I say this because my son was similar with the 60-time, and the travel coach kept saying "get it lower" without really explaining why - he also kept saying "could be mid-major D1" which is the slipperiest statement in high school baseball. We were too shy to ask. He's at a D3.
When you say your son is an elite hitter, do you mean hitting is his best tool? Hits for power (exit velo)? or average? Has a high batting average, gets on base a lot?
Hitting is definitely his best tool. His exit velo is upper 90s. His average is typically around .400 (+/- .020 depending on pitching). OBP ranges from .450-.500.
We have had detailed conversations about his recruiting with his travel coach. Coach has called schools where he has contacts, but I'm not sure how much clout he has with them because he's relatively new to the coaching side. He does have many contacts from when he played college and in the MiLB.
Religiously, run up and down hills every day for the next couple weeks. It will suck, but he will be able to run a 6.8 afterwards. Then go to the camp. Problem solved.
It doesn't matter how fast you can run if you can hit/hit bombs.
On son's college team, the first baseman was sloooooow. Real slow. Coach told my son (2B) to cover everything around 1B that wasn't hit directly to the bag. It takes all types.
7.0 is recruitable.
Was he invited to the camp personally or thru his travel program? Or are you guys attending on your own/generic email invite?
I wouldn't attend unless I was specifically told to. Unless he's on a list of kids to watch he would really have to stand out, especially as a position player.
@Momball11 posted:Hitting is definitely his best tool. His exit velo is upper 90s. His average is typically around .400 (+/- .020 depending on pitching). OBP ranges from .450-.500.
Agree with Adbono and TPM... for a corner OF that hits for power, 7.0 isn't a big red flag. The .400 average and OBP #s you shared are meaningless without competitive context. Similarly, high exit velo on it's own doesn't speak to how it might translate. If he shows that he hits good pitching well and with power, he will draw attention just fine at 7.0. It seems like the event lines up well in every other way. If he is this kind of elite bat now, he should go.
@cabbagedad posted:
Yeah, as I was typing up that information I was thinking to myself..."how will any of those values matter without the competitive context?", but @anotherparent requested the information, so I obliged.
I will add....
It is nice to go to at least one camp when you have something to show. If nothing else, but to see how it is run, learn how to interact with coaches, get some metrics, and see how you measure up to the other players there. The one camp keewartson went to was at a school most any baseball player would love to attend (a CWS contender and winner). It was a two day camp, but we could drive from home. Coach spoke with the parents on the second day about recruiting, etc. Totally worth it....for one camp.
Exit velo upper 90's? Get him to the camp and in front of the coaches, especially since you said they are aware of him, but need to see him. They won't care if he is a 7.0 or a 6.8. My son was being recruited by 2 mid-majors (likely as a 2B) and wasn't a sub 7.0 guy. It was never mentioned once by either of the guys recruiting him. He ended up as a PO for 3 years and then played DH/1B his senior year due to an arm injury. He was plenty fast enough to get doubles because of his bat. Oh, and maybe consider a new travel ball coach lol
From what you said, depending on your sons bat, you probably are at a crossroads. If the coach doesn’t have credibility with college coaches, that can be a problem. We came to that CrossRoad with my son. I was speaking to the owner of my son’s club and explaining that he needed an advocate. We weren’t a power team and coaches weren’t just showing up to watch. He told me he would call my son’s dream school IF he had a good summer. I told him my son had been talking to the coach for months due to a camp we attended and they kept him after. We decided then that we needed a new club or had to focus on showcases and camps. We loved our team so we attended a lot of camps (uninvited) and PBR or PG showcases. He ended up talking with several P5 coaches just from attending the camps. I would say all interest and offers he got were based completely outside of our travel club and he became heavily recruited.
Many people place WAY too much emphasis on training facility, travel and HS coaches. Regardless of what they say and do, you and your son are the ones who get him recruited and committed.
Don't ever believe otherwise.
Make your own decisions.
@Momball11 posted:Yeah, as I was typing up that information I was thinking to myself..."how will any of those values matter without the competitive context?", but @anotherparent requested the information, so I obliged.
Well, I asked for it because you said "elite hitter" which is kind of vague. How can a college coach evaluate "eliteness" other than with EV plus seeing how he performed against D1-bound pitchers?
When you to go camps and to high-level tournaments, you see that there are a lot of kids who can hit and field and have high EV and run a sub-7 60 and really understand the game, have to be seen to be appreciated, etc. More kids than there are D1 roster spots.
@anotherparent posted:Well, I asked for it because you said "elite hitter" which is kind of vague. How can a college coach evaluate "eliteness" other than with EV plus seeing how he performed against D1-bound pitchers?
When you to go camps and to high-level tournaments, you see that there are a lot of kids who can hit and field and have high EV and run a sub-7 60 and really understand the game, have to be seen to be appreciated, etc. More kids than there are D1 roster spots.
Son's been to three P5 camps. We've seen some great players. Overall there's always been a variety and I think that's because there's quite a spectrum of players that are at different stages of development. Everyone has a unique timeline of their own. We didn't really care about his performance at these camps as he's not too interested in one and the others are probably close or already finished with their 2024 recruiting class. He hit well at the camps.
I would love for him to have more opportunities to hit against D1-bound pitchers. He got a good amount of opportunities to hit against current college arms and still hit well.
Even with everyone's responses I'm leaning toward waiting a little longer. It seems to me that the transfer portal has pushed back recruiting, so I think we can wait a maybe another month to see if some work with a sprint coach will make the necessary adjustments to drop just a little bit more. Thank you everyone for your thoughts.
I take Momball11 at her word when she mentions her son has an elite bat and her evaluation is fine with me. All of our sons, to an extent are big fish in small ponds and that is why there may be some skepticism trying to evaluate posts here from words (or stats) alone. When you get to the college level, every guy has something going for him and your son's job is to beat them out. Making matters worse, your sons in many cases are boys trying to beat out established men. It is one of the most difficult challenges one can imagine. Mental toughness and heart play a huge role in whether or not someone ever gets on to the playing field.
That said, back to the original topic about 7.0 and/or other measurables. adbono is right about too much emphasis placed on the measurables. Coaches at the end of the day are looking for winning players - good hitters and pitchers who don't hang their head when everything doesn't go their way each and every time out. Really good players can beat you in multiple ways. Maybe they went 0-4 on a given day but they made great, game-changing plays defensively or used heads-up baserunning to help score additional runs. Maybe a pitcher gets roughed up early in a game, but he has the mental toughness to hang in there and give his offense a chance to win the game late. This question is to everyone out there - is your guy one of those guys?
Here is a real world story and of course anecdotal evidence of one, but it demonstrates how much uncertainty there is. Gary Gilmore of Coastal Carolina is one of the winningest coaches in all of D1 baseball highlighted by the 2016 national championship. He mentioned in a newspaper article that they found this lightly recruited guy out of Canada. They took a flyer on him and invited him down. Apparently, the kid had no other offers pending and it was very late in the recruiting process. In batting practice and based on that alone, they offered him a scholarship on the spot. Unfortunately for Coastal, a Cincinnati Reds scout happened to be at that workout and he saw the same thing Coastal did - an elite bat. There were no exit velocity tests back then - it was strictly the eye and ear test - how far does it go, how often does it go there, and what does the ball sound like coming off the bat. Guys that know what they are looking for, know it when they see/hear it.
Here is the now 39 year old "kid's" PG profile. From the sounds of it, Momball11's son may already have better measurables (e.g., footspeed, arm talent) than this guy. Read the write-up and notice the scouting report about how they evaluated his bat.
https://www.perfectgame.org/pl...ofile.aspx?ID=118560
For those uninterested in clicking on the link, that player's name was Joey Votto.
@Momball11 posted:2024 son wants to attend camp at a mid major D1 program this winter. This school still has openings for his class. His Achilles heal is his 60 time...he's still right at 7.0 seconds. He's a corner outfielder and has an elite bat. His secondary position is 2B. Would you send him to the camp or wait until he's sub 7 sec?
If your son wants to attend this camp, and there are openings for 2024, waiting for him to improve on a 60 time is NOT necessary.
JMO
@ClevelandDad posted:I take Momball11 at her word when she mentions her son has an elite bat and her evaluation is fine with me.
Thanks. I'm not planning on him being the next Joey Votto though.
We're just taking this all one step at a time and putting our focus on the 40-year plan. Really neat to hear about Joey's background story.
I would like to keep my and my son's identity private on the public side of the forum, so that is why it's hard for me to give too much detailed information.
I looked up the definition of HSBBW in the urban dictionary. It said :
HSBBW - a message board about baseball, where inexperienced people ask questions and get feedback, advice, & suggestions from more experienced people - and then don’t listen to it.
@adbono posted:I looked up the definition of HSBBW in the urban dictionary. It said :
HSBBW - a message board about baseball, where inexperienced people ask questions and get feedback, advice, & suggestions from more experienced people - and then don’t listen to it.
I think you just described my ex wife.
@adbono posted:I looked up the definition of HSBBW in the urban dictionary. It said :
HSBBW - a message board about baseball, where inexperienced people ask questions and get feedback, advice, & suggestions from more experienced people - and then don’t listen to it.
Lol! Actually I'm now in the mindset of letting the boy decide (I'm going to share with him everything that was said). I'm not sure my husband is going to have the same opinion, so I'm not sure what will happen.
@Master P posted:I think you just described my ex wife.
That would apply to mine as well.
@Momball11 posted:2024 son wants to attend camp at a mid major D1 program this winter. This school still has openings for his class. His Achilles heal is his 60 time...he's still right at 7.0 seconds. He's a corner outfielder and has an elite bat. His secondary position is 2B. Would you send him to the camp or wait until he's sub 7 sec?
I will give the qualifying phrase "Everyone's recruitment is different", but I have found so far with my 2024 RHP that the camps have not been a productive use of time and money with his recruitment.
My opinions is strictly based upon our experience, but with the mid-major camps that my son attended, I believe that their are two types of kids that attend those camps.
1) The kid that has already been recruited by the school and they have already offered or are 90% sure that they are going to offer. I know of two kids this past year that fell into this category. They went to the camp and were offered the following week, but they had been talking to the assistant coaches of that school for quite a while.
2) The second type of kid that attends the camp is the kid that has had no communication with any of the coaches other than and email invitation. Those kids are not getting any consideration and are there only to provide some income for the program and or assistant coaches. In my opinion this is 99% of the kids that attend the camps.
I know one camp that my son attended with one of his travel ball team mates. His team mate had been communicating with the school for several months prior to the camp. My son actually put up better numbers at the camp, but he didn't even get so much as a conversation with the coaches while the other kid received an offer the following week.
I just don't think that anything happens at a camp that gets the attention of a coach. Maybe if you are pitcher and stroll off the mound having pumped 94 mph fastballs, but for the most part, I think that coaches already have their minds made up about who they are offering well before the camps for Jr. and Sr. players.
@Ster posted:I will give the qualifying phrase "Everyone's recruitment is different", but I have found so far with my 2024 RHP that the camps have not been a productive use of time and money with his recruitment.
My opinions is strictly based upon our experience, but with the mid-major camps that my son attended, I believe that their are two types of kids that attend those camps.
1) The kid that has already been recruited by the school and they have already offered or are 90% sure that they are going to offer. I know of two kids this past year that fell into this category. They went to the camp and were offered the following week, but they had been talking to the assistant coaches of that school for quite a while.
2) The second type of kid that attends the camp is the kid that has had no communication with any of the coaches other than and email invitation. Those kids are not getting any consideration and are there only to provide some income for the program and or assistant coaches. In my opinion this is 99% of the kids that attend the camps.
I know one camp that my son attended with one of his travel ball team mates. His team mate had been communicating with the school for several months prior to the camp. My son actually put up better numbers at the camp, but he didn't even get so much as a conversation with the coaches while the other kid received an offer the following week.
I just don't think that anything happens at a camp that gets the attention of a coach. Maybe if you are pitcher and stroll off the mound having pumped 94 mph fastballs, but for the most part, I think that coaches already have their minds made up about who they are offering well before the camps for Jr. and Sr. players.
Exactly my experience as well.
I will add - camps are usually divided into groups. And typically only players in a certain group (e.g. group A, group 1, blue team, etc) are being considered. Everyone else is there to pay the salary of the assistant coach; they would have to do something spectacular to get noticed. But I've seen non-recruits do spectacular things and get nothing more than an attaboy.
It's usually obvious pretty quickly which group is made up of the real recruits. Unless the camp is small enough that everyone is under consideration.
Another way to tell if you are under serious consideration is if they have you play against their existing commits.
I agree. Son only went to two camps. One was a requirement by PBR to play in future's game and personal invite by the University coaching staff. The coaching staff got son mixed up with someone else and didn't even talk to him all day then when the volunteer came to talk to us I told him that the information he was giving me was for the wrong kid. Son struck out 5 of the 6 kids he faced on 16 pitches and the other popped up on 1 pitch. Son hit a couple of HR's from each side in BP. The volunteer stopped us before we got to the parking lot and told son he needed to work on his control pitching. When I asked about hitting he said your son did not hit. He was a PO. We told him what son did pitching and hitting, BTW no one else hit one out. Volunteer asked us to wait while he went to get the HC or AC. I said no thank you. We got what we came for which was to be eligible for PBR. They tried to talk to us at PBR but son apologized and said he was busy. Bad part was the past staff was ready to offer full ride the week before they were released.
The other school son went to camp because they pushed for it. He took 6'4" LHP who threw 90 and hit well and was the second fastest HS kid in Missouri with him. They never talked to son's friend. They made son very good offer which we held onto until he accepted UT's offer. I told them then that they missed on a great kid who would have helped their program but it helped me know that coaches don't look at camps other than the kids they invite. Even LHP's throwing 90.
@PitchingFan posted:I agree. Son only went to two camps. One was a requirement by PBR to play in future's game and personal invite by the University coaching staff. The coaching staff got son mixed up with someone else and didn't even talk to him all day then when the volunteer came to talk to us I told him that the information he was giving me was for the wrong kid. Son struck out 5 of the 6 kids he faced on 16 pitches and the other popped up on 1 pitch. Son hit a couple of HR's from each side in BP. The volunteer stopped us before we got to the parking lot and told son he needed to work on his control pitching. When I asked about hitting he said your son did not hit. He was a PO. We told him what son did pitching and hitting, BTW no one else hit one out. Volunteer asked us to wait while he went to get the HC or AC. I said no thank you. We got what we came for which was to be eligible for PBR. They tried to talk to us at PBR but son apologized and said he was busy. Bad part was the past staff was ready to offer full ride the week before they were released.
The other school son went to camp because they pushed for it. He took 6'4" LHP who threw 90 and hit well and was the second fastest HS kid in Missouri with him. They never talked to son's friend. They made son very good offer which we held onto until he accepted UT's offer. I told them then that they missed on a great kid who would have helped their program but it helped me know that coaches don't look at camps other than the kids they invite. Even LHP's throwing 90.
Yes, I think that you gave some very good examples of what these Prospect camps are like, at least that is the opinion I have gathered this past year from camps. My son attended three prospect camps at Mid Major programs. He put up impressive numbers at all three, but it really didn't matter because the staffs there already had their mind made up about which kids they really wanted to see. The rest really just didn't matter. We went to one SEC school prospect camp and the coaching staffs all watched the pitching performance of the first three pitchers that they put on the mound. Once those three guys were finished, they spent the majority of the day talking to those three guys and then just visiting with one another. They hardly even took the time to glance at the other kids that pitched and hit the rest of the day.
So, to go back to the OP's question about attending the camp, I would say that it really doesn't matter if your son runs a sub 7.0 or not. If you aren't already getting phone calls from the assistant coaches from that school, there is probably nothing that your son can do at the camp to really put him on their radar.
Another thing to consider, my son received an offer from a D1 school a couple of weeks ago, so he sent a text message to his travel ball director asking his opinion about the school etc... The director called him back and they spoke for a while about some other schools that are possibly going to offer him in the near future that he has had conversations with. He told my son something that really struck me. He said, "right now the D1 schools are not likely to give any offers right now because they are going to wait and see what the transfer portal is going to look like after the spring." He said that he expects every thing to come to a halt as far as 2023, 2024 recruiting until the end of spring and summer after all of the transfer portal names are entered. This is especially true of for the Mid Majors as they wait to see how many Power 5 players that didn't get PT this spring decide to jump in the portal to move down to a mid major or low D1 team to get playing time.
So, don't go into this January camp with big expectations.
We have observed the same sort of thing at the camps he has attended. The camps he has attended were attended without a personal invite. You could tell easily at one of the camps who was invited because they got more reps than the other campers and that's who they have their eyes on and talk to more. It is/was really frustrating to have him attend a camp and come away feeling like it was just a waste of money.
A lot of people recommend camps as the best "bang for your buck" investment, but the further we travel on this recruiting journey the more I am convinced it's very much a "who you know" sort of situation.
Son coached at the college level - ran or attended many college camps for different schools and entities. Yes, most are largely a vehicle to pay assistants and are run with minimal hope or intention of finding strong recruits. But there are also true prospect camps with specific invites to players the school wants to get on campus and get another look at. Yes, sometimes one is blended into the other.
If you don't have prior dialog with specific arrangements to spend time with someone on staff then don't have expectations of "being seen" at that event. There are exceptions. This is the norm.
7.0 is recruitable. If he can hit they will find a place for him. It may not be corner outfield but it could be a corner infield. So long as a player doesn't clog up the base path there is always room for a good hitter. I have seen many player at mid-majors that are not fast (7.8 60) and have played.
