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quote:
Originally posted by Bee>:
again, I respect the opinions expressed

To be consistent, it would then be in your best interest to include in your preliminary communications with schools your intent to decline any offers, visits, or opportunities from any school where any contact with alcohol is possible - it would prevent your wasted time & open opportunities for others



bbscout, just wondering whether you guys had 2004 #1, Matt Bush on your draft board, & where?


way, way, down the list. And Bee, I don't make the picks on draft day either.
quote:
Originally posted by Bee>:
again, I respect the opinions expressed

To be consistent, it would then be in your best interest to include in your preliminary communications with schools your intent to decline any offers, visits, or opportunities from any school where any contact with alcohol is possible - it would prevent your wasted time & open opportunities for others



bbscout, just wondering whether you guys had 2004 #1, Matt Bush on your draft board, & where?


To be consistant, the topic is about drinking on official visits. It is against the law, but I guess that does not matter to some people. That is until a kid gets hurt or in trouble, or worse.
FBM, I don't think that anyone here thinks drinking is ok for their teenagers or college students. Just because someone knows it happens, doesn't mean they want to promote or encourage it in anyway.

Alcohol has touched my family in tragic ways as well - my son and I have had conversations about alcohol just like we have about many other subjects. He knows my feelings very well.
Difficult topic, and no way we will end up with a concensus. But, it is more than important enough to discuss and debate. This post is hopefully food for thought for the "don't do it because it is "illegal" crowd." Admittedly, it is outside the "booze on recruiting trip" topic, but, hopefully addresses our thinking in general on this particular topic; what is the best approach for our sons?

I think it was "Futureback" who said that nothing good comes out of drinking and, basically, I agree. (However some pretty irrefutable studies demonstrate that regular alcohol consumption IN SMALL AMOUNTS (e.g. approx. 2 drinks per day) is actually quite healthy, emprically, for our species.) So how do we help our kids navigate between the societal pressures, from both sides, and a healthy life style?

Look at history. We had a situation, once upon a time, where the vast majority of Americans did not drink. It was a relatively simple matter to pass an amendment outlawing all consumption of alcohol in this country. What happened? Because it was "illegal" but not "unfashionable" drinking was introduced to, and became part of the lifestyle of, untold numbers of people who would not have bothered before. In other words, it became cool, quite possibly because it was illegal. By the time prohibition ended we had entirely new segments of society drinking alcohol.

The same might be said about drugs. During the 60's, 70's, 80's some of you parents out there may have indulged for awhile because, although it was illegal, it was fashionable. The imprimatur of illegality meant nothing to you because you knew that, basically, it was a stupid legal principle. You had experienced a thousand + kids go through all kinds of usage without problems, notwithstanding the dire consequences predicted by our collective parental units who, for the most part, had absolutely no experience in this arena. So what is the big deal, particularly when you were only a party user? Our parents were clueless, why should we listen to them? That is how many, if not most, of us felt. Given this, it is hard to ignore the hypocrisy of some of the parent generated stuff going on today. Why should our kids feel any differently than we felt?

I realize that many a present parent has taken an "anti-drug or alcohol" position because of their own experiences which were, all told, less than positive. But, we will never, ever, succeed in keeping our children, their kids, and so on, from these potential dangers by making the activity illegal. How many times are we allowed to ignore history before we ourselves are the biggest problem? In other words, what really upsets me is adding on to the potential problems drug or alcohol use could cause in small numbers of people, the incredible legal problems drug or alcohol use can now cause for all kids who happen to get caught, even if it is the first and only time they have ever gone down this road.

For example, I believe Bee is entirely correct historically. At one time all the states had different drinking age laws, some even differentiated between 3.2 beer and other kinds (levels) of alcohol. Then, as now, the best a parent could do was to explain, coach, cajole, a son or daughter about the consequences of what was legally available to them. They waited on pins and needles, just as we do today. One thing that a parent didn't have to worry about was the cost, trauma, loss of focus, ambition and hope, a son or daughter might now face when their fashionable, but recently illegal activity puts them in jail. However, the federal government (arguably illegally) decided to flex its financial muscles (as it did with the 55 mph speed limit) to tell every state what was best for them, or else.

The most important thing is to realize that this age limit stuff is entirely subjective. The age limit in New York when I grew up was 18. Here in Fla., back then, it was 21. I could have been arrested during our annual baseball trips to Fla. for something that was completely legal in my home state. More importantly, everybody on the team was used to dealing with the decision to drink or not to drink, and for the most part we just said no when there was a game the next day. I can say in no uncertain terms that the 18 year old citizens of New York did not suffer by comparison to other states because we had an 18 yr. old drinking age, while their drinking age was 21.

Now, as a parent, we need to worry not only about the serious consquences of drinking, (which are statistically tiny, but nevertheless important) but also the onerous legal consequences. I don't know how any parent of a teenager can be in favor of that. These often ridiculous laws are not going to stop our kids from doing what is fashionable. If we have any hope in this regard, it is to look at other cultures and realize that it doesn't have to be this way. It may take time and perhaps several generations of counseling. But, I believe this goal we all want is very important, and will never happen when some artificial governmental entity is standing over our shoulders with a threat.

For example, I have seen 12 year-old German boys drinking shoupers of beer after dancing for the patrons of a local establishment. It was no big deal. Their fathers' might work on the automobile factory floors where beer is also available at will. It is no big deal. Beer is sold in vending machines virtually everywhere (movie theaters, McDonald's etc), it is no big deal. Drinking alcohol is no big deal, getting drunk,... that is another story. I could go on to many other countries and cultures, but I am sure many of you have seen the same thing. We (the USA) may have a flaw in this matter which is a cultural imperative, not a legal issue. The bottom line, with education, cultural refocus etc., we should be able to handle this, just as other countries and societies have.

I brought my kids up in the American fashion. No booze until legal age, no small sips or celebratory drinks, and so on. I did not wish to give them the idea that, by my acquiescence to small amounts of alcohol, drinking was OK. In retrospect, it simply doesn't work. The topic needs to be demystified and most definitely decriminalized. My oldest child was a female athlete. For the prom they had organized a pre-party where the parents were invited to take pictures etc. It was a nice affair. The girls were beautiful, the boys were handsome, and they all, particularly the boys, seemed too young to even consider drinking etc. As we were leaving one of the Mom's shouted out: "OK, who are the designated drivers for tonight?" Several kids raised their hands, and she checked them out as they left. I was initially appalled at her suggestion that there would be any need for a designated driver. But, as I drove home, I was quite thankful for her perceptions, and many of those pins and needles I might otherwise have felt were put to rest. She was a lot smarter than I was.

As for baseball, you couldn't go into a pro locker room immediately after a game in the 60's, early 70's (and probably long before that) that wasn't thick with cigarette smoke, and populated by hundreds of empty beer bottles . Take a look now. Times have changed. Change is possible, but effective change comes from interest (team or self) not some government edict. Let us try to have the strength on issues like this to work for what will ultimately succeed, not what is expedient.
IMO it's all about idealism and reality.

In a perfect college world... people don't
drink, cheat, steal, speed, practice unsafe ***, party with a vegence,...

In a real college world many people (not all)choose to do all these things...and they are a part of what college is now. I may not agree with it, in fact may see real harm or risk in it, but it is the reality.

The key IMO is to have raised a young man who understands choices and consequences.

To some extent it is all Moot...If a recruit goes to a party he has a choice... on a recruiting trip can decide for himself what he chooses to do and what he does not. No matter where he is taken, shown or offered. No one is going to make my son do anything. It is his choice and he needs to be raised with personal boundaries.

I figure watching what the other players do and how they handle themselves in such situations tells me a great deal about the priorities and senisibilities of the program. Are these people I want to be around for the next 4 years?
Just my 2 cents worth - I could feel like a lousy mother after reading some of these posts but I don't feel like I've done a bad job raising my sons. I drank at parties while in HS, 30 yrs. ago and have known and allowed my sons to do the same. I guess I'm a realist. I even let kids drink at our house with them knowing they had to spend the night. Alot of the parents of my kids friends felt the same way we do, we'd rather know they're in a safe environment than out driving drunk. I've gotten phone calls in the middle of the night asking me to come and get them and always did. I always told them to call instead of getting behind the wheel and they did listen to me.
Am I going to be naieve and think there won't be any booze in the refrig at school? No. He's living with kids that are 21 and they do drink. Thankfully, I had an open dialogue with my sons as they were growing up about the dangers of drinking, drugs and ***. Sure they experimented. I like that they feel comfortable enough to tell me what went on at a party. It can lead to some very good discussions about the choices they make and how it can affect them in the future. We also were wise enough to never ever leave them home alone for a weekend. We knew whenever somebody's parents were away for the weekend that's where the party would be. I wasn't that naieve. Does my 23 yr. old buy my 20 yr old beer? Yeah he does. Do his friends older siblings do the same thing? Yes they do. I'd rather not bury my head in the sand and think, not my kid. They have friends that choose not to drink and they consider that ok, too. My 23 yr old hardly ever drinks now that he can, hasn't gotten anyone pregnant and doesn't do any drugs so I think we did ok. My 20 yr old will sometimes tell me that so-in-so is probably going to be an alchoholic so they know what's up.
As to the drinking on an official visit, yeah he did drink on all of them at the campus parties. And yes, the coaches knew. Luckily the school he chose does not have parties except Thur. nights so he doesn't have the pressure that goes on at some of the schools. Do I wish he didn't drink? He's 20 so of course I wish he didn't but I also am enough of a realist to know that he does and hope we've done enough talking to at least make him somewhat smart enough to know how to handle it. I don't know if how I raised them is the "right" way but I've done the best I can do and hope they've taken the lessons learned with them for the future. So far they haven't disappointed me or their dad.
PABBMOM

Having parties at your house and letting the kids drink? You are only asking for trouble. Just because they will spend the night(or you think they will) does not get you off the hook. It is illegal. That is the black and white of it. Suppose one falls and gets hurt or has a fight and hurts somebody or drinks so much that he requires medical attention or leaves and drives.
People sometimes trivialize the use of alcohol. I teach Health education in High school. When teaching the alcohol unit the attitude of the kids sometimes is one of yea everybody drinks and gets drunk and some see it as humorous. I do not let that go far. Every year i ask them how many know of somebody a friend etc who was taken to the emergency ward of a hospital for alcohol poisoning. Over half raise their hand. Sobering thought.
Again it comes down to one thing: it's illegal. Look at prisons in our country.
Obviosuly murder and robbery 'Happen' but does it make it right and legal? NO. That's an extreme example but I hope you get my point. This site helps promote being the best baseball player you can become, and the last time I checked, alcohol can't help you hit a curveball.
PAbbMom, I agree that we never know for sure if we've raised our children the "right" way, but
I think you've also had a little luck on your side-jmo.

I do find it curious that your children HEEDED your advice when you told them to call you when they were under the influence of alcohol, but DIDN'T listen to you when they were sober and you told them of the problems of underage drinking.

From what I've been reading on a lot of posts here, maybe I'm in the minority when it comes
to raising kids. YES, YES, YES, We all know drinking, drugs, *** etc. goes on every day across the country-is this the rationale to excuse it? Kids do it, just accept it? Just give
up because you're not going to stop it? A little drinking never hurt anyone? As long as they
call home and tell us they're drunk it's OK?

I'm not here to tell everyone how to raise their children-heaven knows my wife and I have made our share of mistakes and are by no means perfect. I just think we are sending the
wrong message when we just give in because we can't lick it. I know my kids have felt the pressure from schoolmates to drink and probably have as well, but they also know that they
won't get the stamp of approval from Mom and Dad. After all, doesn't someone have to be
the adult?

It's Sunday and I'm through with my sermon-sorry.
quote:
, and the last time I checked, alcohol can't help you hit a curveball.


What has always amazed me is how some parents will spend hundreds of dollars on private instruction, showcases, travel ball, weight training, etc. and then look the other way when it comes to their son's drinking. Drinking isn't going to help baseball performance, it isn't going to help with academics ... and it certainly can lead to heartbreaking incidents. Confused
PA, I applaud your honesty in making your post. To read the thread, one might assume we were all raising little angels with rules and regulations followed down the line. Hmmmm....sounds like a lot of conversations with parents I've had.

Like the ones with parents of a teammate of my son's in hs, who was to his parents, a stellar student, universally loved, unfailingly polite, completely law-abiding, and set to be drafted. And to many of the adults, he was. (see Eddie Haskell) And when he was drag-racing his new Mercedes with three teammates in the car, all under the influence of more than one illegal substance, lost control and put himself through a wall before the car arrived (he wasn't wearing his seatbelt), he remained the perfect son because he was theirs. Most fortunately, he survived the coma with relatively few problems.

It would seem you have a very open and close relationship with your son, and that is a rare gift that you have fashioned. Don't let anyone put you off the highly personal decisions you have made in raising your children.

I've been cursed with a good memory and am well aware of what I was doing at the ages of 18 and 20, my kids' current ages. Of course, they are much too young and inexperienced for some of those things Wink.
pa mom.

Just announced yesterday and today in Illinois....

A mother and her son were arrested for serving liquor at a party at their house where a 16 year old got drunk...left the party; and, drowned when he decided to go for a swim in a pond nearby. Apparently the mother served anyone and everyone. She didn't even know many of the "party" attendees! Wonderful, mom.

I try to do my best as a parent but I can't control my sons and others in their/other environment. I know one mom who smokes joints with her sons and in front of my sons. When I called to complain, she was "indignant" that I would call.

I think any minor should be required to serve 30 days in jail for the first offense of underage drinking; 60 for the second and so on.

They know exactly what they are doing. They know exactly the "buzz" they want. They get "emboldened" by the booze.

Remember when I was a teenager who tried beer once and didn't like it. Used to go to the quarries near Lemont (those of you from CHicagoland would know what I'm talking about)with a 6-pack...didn't have 12 packs or 24 packs at that time. Most of the guys got wasted and wound up laying around under some trees and in the bushes not knowing exactly where they were....and I wound up with their girlfriends for the night.
Last edited by BeenthereIL
by clevedad,
bee "Are you a lawyer by any chance?"
OUCH! & double OUCH!
no, I actually work for a living, dirty hands etc



in reading thru alot of resonable responses on both sides, one thing seems to ring true

the "CULTURAL INFLUENCE"

if the parent was raised in a family or community with 'HEALTHY VIEW" of alcohol -
a tolerant additude is evident

if the parent was raised in a family or community where alcohol was a problem or viewed as "THE KEYS TO THE EVIL EMPIRE" - a very intolerant view is evident



and, before you're too quick to comdem Pabbmom, the additudes & actions in their peer group may well have prevented tradgedies - - in fact the info she related only support that conclusion



yes Will, something IS wrong there - in my 35 yrs since hs, including being active with kids while mine were school age (coaching, chaperoning, etc), and also counting my wife's 12 yrs in the medical field I/we don't know anyone who was treated at the ER for alcohol poisoning

tho during the '70's when Ohio was 18 yrs (for 3.2), we'd often see kids from Pitt in Y'town and Kent getting pretty crazy with their newfound freedom -


John, that's truly sad regarding the drowning tragedy - thoughts & prayers to the family



also Will, is it taught in health class/alcohol unit that during night swimming under the infulence, the inner ear/sense of balance can be screwed up to the point the swimmer will swim franticly to the bottom thinking it's the surface?? the cause of most night swimming tragedies!
Last edited by Bee>
Spot on, Bee --- most of our attitudes come from personal experience, and many times people presume those attitudes to be the same as Universal Truth.

In England, all new mothers are offered as much Guiness as they want because of the iron content and the effect alchohol has in dialating the blood vessels --- it helps breastfeeding. Patients in hospital are given wine with dinner, particularly those with mobility problems, for the same reason -- dialating the blood vessels helps blood flow and therefore healing. When my son had colic, I was "prescribed" brandy to help soothe him.

Alchohol doesn't mean excess. Excess means excess.
For starters, I nominate this thread for the Golden Threads forum. Bee, just to be clear, my comment was meant as a compliment to your argumentitive skills.

The following is somewhat stream of conscious so please forgive in advance.

After reading the many outstanding posts on this subject, I have found myself waffling on the issue somewhat. Not necessarily to the narrower issue of drinking on an official visit but to the broader issue of teenage drinking itself.

It seems you need the wisdom of Solomon to be a parent these days. These are some of the questions I have: When something is strictly forbidden does it make it even more alluring to the child? If we are to forbid our children, should we also not drink ourselves?

I have tried to rationalize these feeling by saying that I am a responsible drinker for the most part. I can go weeks without drinking and not miss it one bit. At the same time, I love to drink and enjoy the effects of alcohol. I also have a long memory as Orlando suggests and there is a certain amount of guilt I carry with me.

The real issue we all have is the fear of something harmful happening to our children while at the same time wanting them to have normal and fun social lives at college. Thus, it seems to me that drinking will ALWAYS be part of the college experience and we should promote ideas that mitigate any possible harm.

On the record, I tell my kids not to drink until they reach legal age. Off the record, I forbid drinking and driving or getting into the car with a drunk. I have told my son 1000 times I will gladly pay for a cab or motel room no matter what the expense and regardless of whether you have to leave your car behind or not.

With respect to the official visit - I think the recruit has to be told forcefully up front by the team leader and/or coach whether they may be exposed to some drinking while they visit but by no means are they expected in any way to participate. This way, all conflicts and ambiguities are resolved for the player.

For instance, if the recruit is being taken to a football game, I can guarantee they will be exposed to drinking. The purpose of the trip is about the young man only and baseball. It is in no way a test to the young man's manhood whether he turns down a drink. He needs to know upfront that how he acts in these social settings of the visit (drinking wise) does not impact the view of him as a player or teammate.

Sorry for rambling but....

Here is a tip for parents when they travel. We used to leave my older son home alone when we traveled. On one trip many years ago, he hosted a party where both sides of the street for hundreds and hundreds of feet were occupied with vehicles of teenagers having a party at our home. When we got home, the neighbor came rushing up and said...you should have seen the party at your house - there must have been 200 kids there!!!! I was enraged and horrified at the same. I said why didn't you call the cops! After I settled down, I realized it wasn't my neighbor's responsibility but mine.

Ever since, when we were both out of town, I called the police station within ear-shot of my son. I asked them if they would kindly watch my house for any signs of a party. You know what? The police where happy that I called. Their only question was whether he was allowed to have any cars over. I said no more than one car at a time and only to pick him up or drop him off. They said fine, watched my house like a hawk, and I never had a problem again.
Official visits--never heard of one--my son's or others'-where alcohol was not available.

Parents who host parties--the rest of us hate you. How come you never call the parents of the kids who attend your parties to make sure that it is ok with US if they drink at your house?

Parties at our house--Thanks to a very nosy nextdoor neighbor, never an issue--at least not with the first one....

The forbidden fruit--I was told by a very reliable source that the reason for drinking in HS had a lot to do with the fact that it was illegal and against house rules and that was what made it fun. Once it is easily available at college, it wasn't as fun and, as a result, happened far less often.

My son/daughter doesn't drink-- I hope all of you are correct. We know a lot of parents who said the same of their kids, but in every single case we knew differently. The difficult question is whether or not to say anything about it.
quote:
if the parent was raised in a family or community with 'HEALTHY VIEW" of alcohol -
a tolerant additude is evident

And whose definition do you choose to use then you define "healthy view"? well, I thnk it seems obvious that it is your personal definition based on the following "leap":
quote:
if the parent was raised in a family or community where alcohol was a problem or viewed as "THE KEYS TO THE EVIL EMPIRE" - a very intolerant view is evident


It would seem from some of your comments that those of us who feel that consuming alcohol should be discouraged .. one doesn't have to recover from alcoholism if the path is never taken ... have an "unhealthy view" and therefore very intolerant view. Well, that is quite a leap from estblishing rules in our own homes that say illegal activities will not be tolerated, just as it is a big leap to imply that those of us who maintained a relatively authoritative household were ruling with an iron fist. Both my husband and I consume alcohol ... tho my consumption has diminished significantly as my age has advanced and my values have changed. We don't really care what other people do legally when it comes to alcohol, but I can say that there would have been hell to pay had my son ever been in a home where the parents provided alcohol to underage drinkers. For some of us, it isn't a matter of any "cultural difference influence" but a matter of our personal values which do not make compromises because of what the rest of the "world" is doing. I make no apologies for that or for my strong belief about the matter.

But then, this goes back to my earlier comment about swimming against the tide ... it gets a little tiring but I can use the exercise.
Last edited by FutureBack.Mom
I would like to second the motion that this thread be added to the "Golden Thread" forum. It has been most thought-provoking.

Seems to me that there is a chasm between idealism vs. realism and how each of us chooses to handle the two entities. It appears most of us have the same "ideal" here.....under-aged drinking is something we don't want our kids to participate in...PERIOD. However, that "ideal" wasn't very "realistic" in MY college experience....and I don't expect it is very realistic in my son and daughter's college experiences either. It is how we choose to bridge this gap between the idealistic and realistic expectations that seems to be the issue. Do we insist that our kids don't drink at college, and leave it at that? Would that have worked when YOU were a college student? Or do we understand that drinking is a part of most college experiences and prepare our kids to deal with it the best they can? The best I can do is to teach them what is expected and if they decide to ignore it....I've talked to them re: drinking responsibly (something that was never done in my household growing up...because WE JUST DIDN'T DRINK AT ALL) ....and if they don't learn how to partake responsibly they've been taught the possible reprocussions (physical, legal,and moral), ad nauseum (no pun intended Wink). There comes a point where you can preach thru words and actions only so long...our kids have to decide if they want to adopt our lessons, ignore them, or incorporate SOME of our beliefs with SOME of theirs. That is part of growing up...and a BIG part of a college education IMO. I've seen enough bizarre choices coming from IMO great families that I sometimes think it might just be a c*r*a*p shoot as to whether our kids get thru unscathed...but we want to give our kids the best odds at it. Personally, I don't know what MORE I can do, and my kids can never claim to not know what MY viewpoint on under-aged drinking is...it is now up to my kids to make their choices. I might HATE some of those choices and I'll surely let them know it, but I'm going to love them no matter what.

Re: official visits and alcohol. I can say that I know my son's college team mates would NEVER think negatively upon anyone who decides to not drink...recruit or not. In our experiences, I don't think whether a recruit decides to have a drink or not is part of the "recruiting decision making" on the coach's part either. Personally, I don't even know if the team has any voice at all in WHO the coach ultimately decides to bring onto the team...unless there was some VERY BIZARRE behavior exhibited by the recruit that the team feels is in the best interest for the coach to be aware of. Personally, if my son went on a recruiting visit where everyone got falling-down drunk....I would thank my lucky stars that he got to see it on the official visit...and NOT when he showed up in the fall after a "less than honest" recruiting trip where the team was obviously on their best behavior. I'd rather he made his decision based on an honest assessment of team camraderie and behavior both on and off the field so he could determine if THAT is the environment he wants to deal with for the next 4 years of his life.
Last edited by luvbb
Everyone is expressing opinions here, FutureBackMom. By definition, that is their view.

As I was the one who used the 'iron fist' reference, may I clarify that that was also my experience, as stated. It was your "big leap" FBM, to apply it to "those of us" and personalize it.

And there are cultural differences in the world (no quotation marks needed --- there is a world and I'm not using the word ironically), many of which have both been imported into the US and have influenced both American culture and law. Cultural differences are not an attack on anyone's values or opinions.

This is a conservative country. Why do people with conservative views regard themselves as swimming against the tide? "Conservative rebel" seems like quite an oxymoron Wink.
As luvbb said, this thread has been most thought-provoking. When I scout kids, the first thing that happens is I try and decide if the young man is a prospect or not. If I feel he is a prospect, I will then check out his background to the best of my ability. Part of that check is to see if anything pops up in the way of drugs, alcohol or off field problems.

There was one reason only that I ran an Area Code Team for many years.......I wanted to be right next to the kids for a week or so, because from experience, red flags would pop up if things were not just right. In scouting, we make mistakes on talent all the time, but in the 11 years that I had an Area Code Team, I never made a mistake on a players make up. Having the team saved me a few times, because there were some players that I would have drafted if I had not known some things that I found out by being around them so much. I had one player (4th round pick) who died from alcohol poisoning at age 26. All the signs were there at 17.

Of all the players that I have signed over the years, the one that I knew would get to be as good as he possibly could be was Chris Singleton. He did not drink, smoke, swear or do anything wrong. He just worked hard and it turned out that he got to be as good as he could be. He put up with teamates who ragged him for never drinking and also for being religious. He ended up being nosed out by Carlos Beltran for the Rookie of the Year award and while he was doing that, he also went back to college and completed his degree.

Only one time have I signed a guy who had red flags, and the sad part was that we released him in "AA" when he had an ERA of 1.92. He was a much better prospect than Singleton, but the bottle was more important to him and he never sniffed the big leagues.
Last edited by bbscout
Orlando ...

Your points are well taken, but if I may clarify a couple of things:

>>I mis-typed/mis-spoke when I used the term 'cultural difference' ... meant 'cultural influence'; I do not see how the statements Bee> used regarding tolerance and intolerance have anything to do with cultural influence ... personal experiences, perhaps. But I still think it is quite a leap to use the word 'intolerant' under these circumstances

>>My use of world in quotes has to do with being "in this world but not of this world"

>>Why do people with conservatie views regard themselves as swimming againt the tide? To answer this would really put us off topic and I suspect we would all probably prefer not to have another one of those threads ... as happened a couple of times pre-election last year ... that pitted some "friends" against "friends" etc. Please let it suffice for me to say, with all due respect to your life experiences and your opinions, that there really are times that I do feel like a "conservative rebel" ... after all, this is the Left Coast out here, even if I am living in one of the most conservative counties ... sometimes I have to drive out of the OC and face other realities
Last edited by FutureBack.Mom
I grew up in a household that had no tolerance for drinking....out of the 5 children that were products of that environment 4 will drink on occasion 1 is a teetotaler...myself...my husband and I do not drink..but I would be an outright liar to say that none of my 3 children has not tried it or even been inebriated once or twice...I vividly remember my oldest attending a party and calling me to get her as she had had a few too many...I picked her up(bringing with me a large bucket as car motion can induce vomiting)...she used that bucket all the way home...I never said one word to her either way about what she had done and she quizzed me a few weeks later as to why I had not read her the riot act...I explained to her that I was very angry at what she had done and probably would have said a lot I would have regretted later but that I also felt that since she was so sick that was a lesson in of itself on just how much fun it is to drink...well she is now 27 and does not drink...lesson learned...it would be very naive on my part to assume that at my sons college drinking is not part and parcle of their weekend activities....I have lectured on the ramifications of drinking to excess...what alcohol does to your brain(ever see someone with Korsakoff's Syndrome) and other parts of your body...the whole gamut...every conversation I have with him I add some thought on drinking so that he hears my voice every time he hoists one....does it work...I am not sure...but I will give my hardest and ****edest to prevent it....I do not abide in the rationalization that everyone is doing it therefore we must be tolerant...I will never be tolerant...if we hold to that theory then why not just go out and break every law set forth because everyone is "doing it"...as far as allowing my child to drink in your home...sorry but if you allow this then when I do find out(and I will find out) then you will have very irate mother to deal with...as far as the ethnic component...my husband is European....ouzo and retsina are always gracing the tables of family and friends and despite having had it that way for years many still become quite inebriated especially at functions...I am of the heritage that is well known for their drinking capabilities....beening drunk is not flattering and I have seen many who have made fools of themselves while under the influence...I can do that without the aid of alcohol
Discussions like this are always difficult because, despite the existance of the dictionary, we all have our own interpretations of words.

Being realistic does not equal tolerance. A parent can realistically expect their child to be offered alcohol, that doesn't mean they won't come down on that child for accepting.

Understanding why a child accepted that alcohol (those of us with long memories again), also doesn't mean condoning that act.

Being part of a culture that accepts alcohol openly also doesn't equate to abuse. Personally, I don't think that scare tactics work with teenagers, I think that element of danger can intrigue some with the tactic having the opposite effect.

Again, it's a matter of doing our best to equip them to make the right choice, and still being there to love them and protect them when they don't.
Last edited by Orlando
"Being realistic does not equal tolerance...It's a matter of doing our best to equip them to make the right choice and still being there to love them when they don't." agree

I'm not so sure about the "protect" part tho....As much as "protect" is in my nature as a mom, I would want my kids to face the consequences of their actions if they are merited. To me, that's one of the hardest aspects of parenting...stepping back and letting the chips fall (especially when they know the action they chose was illegal). Sometimes it is how they learn best.
Last edited by luvbb
Great Thread!

I can't say my boys have never had a drink. I will say they did not drink in HS. They felt baseball was to important, and knew not only our view on the subject but the coaches.

From reading this board, and I haven't seen it come up, sometimes recruits are offered beer just to see if they will. Maybe the coach finds out and the offer is gone.

Mine was offered at 2 of 4 schools he visited. He decided not to persue either of those schools, yet his decision of where to play didn't pan out either.... just because it wasn't offered during the visit doesn't mean it is not going to be around, and by the players, not just the general students. So in someways maybe it is best you KNOW upfront that is going to be part of it, and if it happens HOW to handle it.

From another thread on here years ago a mom or dad over heard their player talking with a bunch of guys over xmas what they did, something to the effect that the college guys were taking up collections for a keg and their son gave $10. When the classmate asked why when you don't drink, he answered, the more you drink, the worse you play, and the better shot I have at taking your job.

This is why I LOVE this PLACE!!

PA, thanks for your honesty. I would rather my son be at your house, with you having his keys than out at Beenthere's park, and decide to drive home.
FMB - - WOW - that's some selective comprehension

the LEAP was yours by removing a few of my statements from any previous context

while it would seem unlikely that someone could take my observations so far out of context - your extreme response just may give more credence to them


anyway - this is not directed at anyone - just a simplification "almost" anyone can understand


regarding views on alcohol

IF - -
#1 - a kid's introduction is by his parents at a Polka Grove in the Pocono's
or
#2 - a kid's introduction is protecting his mom from a drunk boyfriend

their perspectives are sure to be vastly different

peace Smile
Last edited by Bee>

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