High school baseball.

You can drive yourself crazy trying to understand that which you will never know. I wouldn't worry about those upper classmen who will never see the field as that could be coach rewarding program loyalties.  If they don't play they didn't take a spot from a better player.  As for your son, the coach may see more value in your son getting reps and AB's on JV vs watching from the dugout on Varsity.

Five tools relative to what? 14u? High school ball is 18u. If he was truly a five tool player he would have been moved to another position on the varsity field. Is your son too good to associate with JV players? 

Take off the rose colored glasses. Encourage him to work hard on JV. If he’s the best player on JV he will start somewhere on varsity next year. 

The four or five upperclassmen on varsity who don’t play are irrelevant. If they’re seniors the uniform is a reward for sticking it out. Now they get to cheer and retrieve foul balls. 

No offense meant to you personally but these are the kind of questions that frustrate me. You answered your own question? He is not going to play ahead of the 2 MIF's so he will receive limited reps. Best place for him to get reps is JV. If he plays for an elite FL HS program then I am going to assume they are playing an elite non-conference schedule. Those elite opponents are going to have tougher JV teams. Heck...we just had one of our frosh JV players from last spring, commit to a competitive D1 program over the summer. I don't know his HC does things but we will move up JV players for specific games to get them reps and keep them motivated. However, nothing worse then watching a young talented player sit on the bench for an entire game, when he could be getting some AB's and working on his game at the JV level.

Stop worrying about where he starts and enjoy the ride. Take it from those of us who have kids in college or beyond. It won't be long and you will be missing his HS days!

ConcernedPapa posted:

Would love some feedback from baseball community.

My son is a freshman at a private HS known for baseball.in Florida. He has 5 tools and can give details if it makes a difference.  Tryouts occur and he clearly is right behind the two upperclassmen MIF as far as skill etc but head coach keeps him on JV, putting multiple, maybe 4 to 5 upperclassmen on the team who will never play in games , only because of seniority. 

I realize he won't play ahead of the 2 MIF until they graduate but do you think most programs would want to develop a SS behind those two junior MIF, using them as mentors, rather than stick him down with less skilled players on JV.  Very frustrating. Just curious if most HS coaches do this. I hope I explained this correctly 

Welcome to HS Baseball!  I suggest you search archives for this subject. Plenty of meat on that bone. 

The kicker here is that there an enormous difference between varsity practices and reps with better players than the weaker JV coach. JV practice is basically babysitting kids who play baseball with 4 superior players vs playing and learning from HS upperclassman and more thorough, experienced coaches. Again I'm curious if most HS coaches keep juniors and seniors on the bench rather than allow underclassmen to compete with the more experienced players, knowing they will be the starters in a few years. 

Recent long time HS coach - This is a common issue.  Each case is unique.  Keep in mind, that while the coach is making determinations what is best for your son, he is also making determinations what is best for each young man out there as well as the program as a whole, the V team on it's own and a host of other factors.  Even aside from all the external stuff, deciding what is best for this young man at this time isn't a no-brainer decision.  There is a long list on both sides of the pro's/con's for such a player, both for being with varsity and with JV.  There is no way you are going to have visibility to everything.  Encourage him to embrace whatever role, whatever situation he is in and remind him how fortunate he is to be in a strong baseball program where he is not top dog coming out of the chute but in the conversation.  Embrace that he will be getting playing time with others that will likely be his teammates as he moves forward with his HS baseball career (which, BTW, is one of many factors the HC is considering).  If he is clearly better than the others who were brought up, if something happens with the starters, I'm sure the HC will consider all his options.  Coaches of strong programs tend to keep pretty decent tabs on what is happening at the levels below.  He will want to continue rolling out his best options when tough games are on the schedule.  Your son should focus on continued improvement and preparation for when his number is called for those tough, competitive varsity games.

ConcernedPapa posted:

The kicker here is that there an enormous difference between varsity practices and reps with better players than the weaker JV coach. JV practice is basically babysitting kids who play baseball with 4 superior players vs playing and learning from HS upperclassman and more thorough, experienced coaches. Again I'm curious if most HS coaches keep juniors and seniors on the bench rather than allow underclassmen to compete with the more experienced players, knowing they will be the starters in a few years. 

Well, then, those 4 "superior" players better take seriously their role in helping the other 10-15 players in that group make significant strides.  They will be varsity teammates before you know it and relying heavily on each other.  That is the best outlook your son can take right now.  At times, the much bigger tests in this game are not what your individual performance is but how you help the team and the program in other ways... whether you will be a positive leader or something else.  

I really appreciate the past two comments. I agree with both of you entirely and I really wish I believed my son would continue to develop under the JV coach and his program,  but I played under him before.  My son is an extremely hard worker as most kids who have some success are, and it seems like canbagedad has it correct.  The varisty coach is more concerned about the HS program as a whole then the development of my son in particular, or any particular player. He ckearly knows the difference in the two teams practice schedule, coaching abilities and overall poor development capability of the jv. But you are correct my son does need to play with the other teammates in future years for sure and learn to elevate the play of others but I am having a tough time swallowing the so called baseball coaches that are all about development when really all they want to do is coach kids who get developed by other people. 

ConcernedPapa posted:

... but I am having a tough time swallowing the so called baseball coaches that are all about development when really all they want to do is coach kids who get developed by other people. 

Continuing with the same line of thinking... your son is likely where he is in part because he is getting good outside instruction to help with his development.  There are very few players these days that advance to next-level play (college and/or high level HS) without getting external (from the HS program) instruction and putting in a great deal of work on their own, with or without good HS coaches.  He will need to continue down that path.  This, too, can only help him going forward.  Had he made varsity and assumed that he would get sufficient skill advancement and could back off of outside instruction, that would probably have been a mistake.  HS coaches, even the best of them, are somewhat limited with how much they can develop skill sets, if nothing else, just because their time is divided among 15-20 players every day and they have other team responsibilities - not just focusing on individual skill set development.

There will be plenty of opportunity for your son to find ways to continue improving within the HS JV environment, even as you describe it.  Again, he needs to embrace it.

You may be surprised to learn down the road that many college programs are similar in that their focus is to bring in players who are ready to contribute more so than rely on development.  Not all, for sure.  But probably far more than you imagine.

Cabbage. You are spot on.  And I appreciate the conversation. Hopefully in 4 years I can complain about the college program. 

I should just walk away from this thread but you seem to throw a jab in every time you respond, even when you are saying you agree entirely. I don't know what it is like in FL but out here in CO, finding quality coaches for every level is almost impossible. Hell, you are lucky to have a full-staff at the varsity level that is all-in. What I do know is, if your son is truly a 5-tool player and only waiting out 2 senior MIF's before he is playing every varsity game, then I would stop worrying about where he plays this year. I am assuming with 5-tools, he is playing high-level summer ball where the competition is consistently better anyway! We have a couple of alumn who are playing in the show right now and neither one of them played varsity baseball their frosh year. One of them even played frosh ball because our HC at the time did not think he was mature enough to play at a higher level. 

ConcernedPapa posted:

The kicker here is that there an enormous difference between varsity practices and reps with better players than the weaker JV coach. JV practice is basically babysitting kids who play baseball with 4 superior players vs playing and learning from HS upperclassman and more thorough, experienced coaches. Again I'm curious if most HS coaches keep juniors and seniors on the bench rather than allow underclassmen to compete with the more experienced players, knowing they will be the starters in a few years. 

My son played JV ball as a freshman along with three other superior players. He started varsity opening day soph year. The other three were called up mid season. They helped the team contend for the conference title. 

Junior and senior year four of those “other players” from the JV helped the team win the conference. ALL eight from their class went on to play college ball at various levels. From the junior year roster twelve went on to play college ball. 

Being the best four on JV freshman year and being the first to move up the following year came with a commitment to become team leaders.

The reality is if a kid wants it to work out in the long run nothing stops him.

I'd try to find a way to relax some over your son's situation this year. First of all, as a percentage of his total time devoted to the sport in 2019-20, I'd be willing to bet that high school constitutes no more than about 20%. The rest would be spent involved in travel ball and some sort of training like that offered in baseball academies. In each of the last two, he'd be expected to be playing for expert coaches and surrounded by other high-caliber players. Even if he were on the high school varsity, travel ball and academy-style training would account for the majority of his development as a player.

Then, assuming that he's promoted to varsity next year, he's facing only one of 4 high school seasons playing for the junior varsity. If all of this is a fair representation of his overall experience over the course of his 4 high school years, this one JV season is relatively inconsequential.

ConcernedPapa posted:

Cabbage. You are spot on.  And I appreciate the conversation. Hopefully in 4 years I can complain about the college program. 

Oh please no...don’t be one of those who complains any time things don’t roll Johnny’s way! It’s a good time for you and your son to learn that things aren’t always going to roll your way, and to keep working hard when they don’t...because attitudes and hard work are a lot of get players noticed.

Interesting how perspectives can differ.  Last year my son was a freshman on the bubble during varsity tryouts.  My wife and I were hoping he wouldnt make it be placed onto the JV team.  JV team has a great coach and he would get more playing time.  Last day of tryouts he got sent down to JV, coach told him to kick ass and come back stronger next year.  He ended the season with the best BA, best ERA, and tons of confidence.  It couldnt have turned out any better and he has had a fire under his butt all summer, weightlifting 3 time a week and hitting in the cages 5 days a week.  Adversity often brings the best out of people.

Don't sweat this.  We were in about the same situation, private school, competitive baseball, son is a MIF.  Freshman year he had a few varsity starts at 2nd, behind a senior who had not yet finished his basketball season, but son primarily played JV.  It was a great experience to grow and mature with his buddies on the JV team, and he actually got to pitch and had a no hitter.  It was so cool!  Thank goodness he was playing JV.

He started at SS on the varsity team his sophomore year, on a heavy senior team with high expectations for success.  It was a different level of pressure  

If your son is anything like mine, he picks up on the attitude my husband and I have about everything.  If he senses we are frustrated with something, it becomes a frustration for him.  If we talk about a problem with a coach, team, etc.  he picks up on that as well.  Fortunately, we saw was happening early on and vowed to let things unfold as they will - without adding our negative take.  Attitudes are contagious!  You don't want your son to have a bad rap for having a bad attitude or thinking he is "above" JV (which he may be, but he can't act like it!).  Like someone said before, there are a number of reasons the coach made this decision that you may never know.  Our job as parents is to encourage and uplift and model a good attitude.  I am sure if he embraces this team and takes it as an opportunity to showcase his leadership skills and talents, he will be recognized.  That can be his 6th tool, making him that much more of a sought after player. 

A few things you ought to be teaching your son:

1. Baseball is a TEAM sport.

2. There is no "I" in TEAM.

3. Coach is the boss of the TEAM. Your son works for COACH when he is between the lines. JV is giving him reps, play time. Be thankful!... He's learning &/ or polishing up some life skills, like patience, perseverance, persistance...and mostly TEAM building.

4. Because COACH is BOSS, it is HIS job to win games by utilizing the players that give the TEAM the best opportunity to WIN. 

Is your son learning to be a TEAM PLAYER? 

Relax...This is Fall of his Freahman year. He needs to be focused on his own development. Mentally, in addition to skills development. 

You need to be focused on providing him the means to his end...Nothing more! Teamates that are older, with better skills are good examples for him. Be thankful he has 2 available mentors. 

Your going to get as many opinions as responses, but the only one that matters is your son's coach.  If you think the Coach developing him on JV is going to be an issue then I'd like to suggest your son schedule a meeting with the Coach, and I'd like to hear how that goes.  I can tell you how it would have gone with my 3 son's high school coaches....not too well.  I don't know anything about your son other than you claim he is a five-tool player at 14 years old.    I'm not going to comment on that claim because I've never seen a 14 year old dominate with all 5 skills against 17 & 18 year old 

If I was the Head Coach and I thought he could bring value (wins!) to my Varsity program as a freshmen then I would play him somewhere (OF, DH, whatever) to give him at-bats or swipe a couple bases.   So, this leads me to believe the following:

-Your son will get more reps at JV.  Possibly the Coach wants to see him play before making a decision on moving him up.  This is what I would do if I was the Coach...I would want to see him dominate JV games before moving him up to Varsity.  Over the years and 3 high school playing sons, I've seen a lot of guys who are really good at practice and BP.   However, when it was "showtime" they struggled because the game was too fast and they could not adapt to hitting breaking pitches.  We live in a baseball talent hotbed.  Many of the guys who make it to the next level play JV in 8th and 9th grade then get moved up to Varsity.  A couple played Varsity in 9th grade but were used very sparingly, and they did not like it.

-Your son is not at the skill level of the 2 MIFS, but he is also not at the hitting skill level as the rest of the starters otherwise he'd be playing another position.   Golden rule of baseball - Those that hit best, play.  Therefore the Coach is giving him JV reps in the field and at the plate.

-You're going to hear the word "opportunity" a lot in the coming years especially if he is an aspiring college player.  JV baseball is his opportunity to show that he belongs in Varsity.   My advice is to take that opportunity and run with it.   Force the Coach to make some tough decisions.   Play Varsity outfield if it gets him to where he belongs as a starting point.

Good luck!

It is what it is. Make the best of it. Work outside of practices if you aren’t getting enough.  My son made freshman team as a freshman, played every game. Made varsity as a sophomore and rode the bench all year. Guess which year he enjoyed the most?

Btw, none of it matters. My son ended up committing to a top 25 school summer after the riding of the bench as a sophomore. Tell your son to work hard and it will pan out.

baseballmom posted:

A few things you ought to be teaching your son:

1. Baseball is a TEAM sport.

2. There is no "I" in TEAM.

3. Coach is the boss of the TEAM. Your son works for COACH when he is between the lines. JV is giving him reps, play time. Be thankful!... He's learning &/ or polishing up some life skills, like patience, perseverance, persistance...and mostly TEAM building.

4. Because COACH is BOSS, it is HIS job to win games by utilizing the players that give the TEAM the best opportunity to WIN. 

Is your son learning to be a TEAM PLAYER? 

Relax...This is Fall of his Freahman year. He needs to be focused on his own development. Mentally, in addition to skills development. 

You need to be focused on providing him the means to his end...Nothing more! Teamates that are older, with better skills are good examples for him. Be thankful he has 2 available mentors. 

I really don't like this logic,

Baseball is not a TEAM sport, they are 9 people out on defense and one in the batters box, each have their OWN responsibility, there may not be "I" in the team but definitely "ME" can be found!  YOUR performance are evaluated, YOU are looked at, and YOU are offered, either JV/V,college or MLB.  Only thing that's recorded as TEAM is the collective of wins/losses, but generally it's taken by an INDIVIDUAL, the pitcher.

A team can exist without a coach, but a coach needs a team to exist!

On another note, if the OP's 5 tool metrics are the following:

60 time, under 6.6sec.

Capable of hitting homers

and hitting above .500

throwing velo on the field 90mph+

an no errors on the field.

Then no reason to play JV, call Scott Boras, otherwise he has potential to be a 5 tool player!

From a personal experience VERY recently.  

Freshman year,  son is one of the top OF in the state in his class, pitched a bit on summer teams.  Throws strikes, ball moves and has a decent cutter.  Hitting, arm, and defense are his calling cards. 

Makes varsity and starts season as LF and hitting 9th for team ranked in top 10 every year.  5th pitcher in preseason tournaments.

Moves to CF and due to injuries/etc, end up as  Tuesday pitcher in district. Ends year at 10-0 and makes honorable mention All-State AS A PITCHER. New comer of the year in District / County / Metroplex.  Played SS when SS pitches.  Plays 2nd in playoffs when not pitching to get best bats in line up.  Moved up to 5th in batting order.

Plays all summer in CF and leads off.  Does not pitch except to close a few games.  Showcases and moves up in PG rankings of OF's................Starts fall ball this year at 3RD and is in the 3 hole.

Bottom line is coach will put his best 9 on the field (it may not be the 9 best, but rather the best 9).  So be ready and willing to do anything and everything asked. 

We look at it as an opportunity to show that he is a BASEBALL PLAYER, which we hope will be valued by colleges.

5 Tools in a Baseball hotbed is:

Throwing Velocity over 90

a 60 time under 6.6

Exit Velocity over 95 mph (preferably over 100)

A proven track record of hitting .450+ vs 17U pitching

A proven track record of a .990 Fielding Percentage vs 17U opponents, plus elite footwork & transfer

A vast majority of 2023's from Baseball hotbeds capable of the above are already committed to SEC teams.

If that isn't your kid, yet: relax, have fun, give him time to develop

3and2Fastball posted:

5 Tools in a Baseball hotbed is:

Throwing Velocity over 90

a 60 time under 6.6

Exit Velocity over 95 mph (preferably over 100)

A proven track record of hitting .450+ vs 17U pitching

A proven track record of a .990 Fielding Percentage vs 17U opponents, plus elite footwork & transfer

A vast majority of 2023's from Baseball hotbeds capable of the above are already committed to SEC teams.

That's not how the 5 tools work. Hitting the ball hard off a tee gives zero indication of how well a player hits for power. A shortstop who makes 4 error in 100 changes can still be an elite fielder. There are guys who don't hit .450 in HS, let alone summer ball who get drafted. You can run a 6.8 and still be fast. If there are 2023s doing this, become their agent because they will be a first round pick in 3 years. 

The 5 tools are hit for average, hit for power, run well, field well, and throw well. You can be a 5 tool player and have none of the above. You can do all 5 well, but if another player has two amazing tools he is more valuable. 5 tools don't mean anything, they are just something to strive for. How many true 5 tool players are there in MLB? 10? 15? 20? Watching a guy play is more important than looking at his numbers. 

Sure, PA, there are plenty of ways to look at it.  What you described might be more valid than what I said... 

my point is:  the OP said his freshman kid is a 5 Tool player, and my thinking is that he is likely not yet a 5 Tool player by the standards of a varsity player in a Baseball hotbed.

Mike Trout wasn't even a 5 Tool player in high school

Stop worrying......imo, hs ball is not relevant to development........external resources (summer coaches, professional instructors) are most important as it relates to development......if you have a hs coach who can supplement that's a bonus...but in my experience not the norm

I've seen your situation swing both ways........my son played jv as a freshman and got to have a guaranteed start every week....that was good for him...next year on varsity as a sophomore he also got that weekly start......he also had a few freshman teammates that year who made varsity.......one never played...got discouraged and ultimately flamed out by his junior year.

Also, you indicate he could learn from the upper class mif....i woudlnt assume that they would mentor your son.....maybe/maybe not.

If you searched back about 6 years you would find a post  from me, sweating about the issue of my HS frosh MIF being placed Varsity, where I knew he would not play much (true), instead of getting lots of reps on JV. Well, the wags of HSBB (many of which are already on this thread) told me to cool my jets and enjoy the ride.  I did, and it all worked out great in the end.

One more note. Coming into Sophomore year my kid was #3 MIF --  SS was a future MLB player and 2B was a solid returning starter. His hit tool was clearly in the top 9 on the team, so we thought he should get starts as a DH when PO's were on the  bump, and would sub in for the SS when he pitched.  But still, we did the smart thing -- I bought him an OF glove and hit him a lot of flies.  Like Fenway said, if you hit you won't sit, but  you can help the coach out by being ready to play other positions.

baseballmom posted:

A few things you ought to be teaching your son:

1. Baseball is a TEAM sport.

2. There is no "I" in TEAM.

3. Coach is the boss of the TEAM. Your son works for COACH when he is between the lines. JV is giving him reps, play time. Be thankful!... He's learning &/ or polishing up some life skills, like patience, perseverance, persistance...and mostly TEAM building.

4. Because COACH is BOSS, it is HIS job to win games by utilizing the players that give the TEAM the best opportunity to WIN. 

Is your son learning to be a TEAM PLAYER? 

I don't like this mentality. You never really feel part of a team unless you're playing. So until you're starting or getting meaningful time it's not the same. Ask a bench player and the starting SS who the championship meant more to. I'll put the farm on the SS. When a coach says we need to play better, he means his regulars need to play better, not the 4 guys at the end of the bench who have a combined 10 ABs on the season. When coaches say everybody is equally important, they're lying.

If you're unselfish to the point where your goals and work matters less than the team, I would have to question the motivation. So yeah be about the team, cheerlead and go about your business, but don't become content because that is what is best for the team. Why would I care about a team I'm barely part of? Why would I cheer for players who are directly in the way of what I want? I like a me first mentality until you're part of a team and it's time to win some games. Maybe that is selfish, but maybe you need to be selfish to get ahead. That is the competition within the competition. Think Aaron Rodgers feels a stronger connection to the team now or when he was sitting behind Favre? 

I was frustrated as son was one of 3 freshman who made the Varsity roster but were listed as JV/Varsity players. The other two boys played up with varsity while son played with JV for all but 3-4 games then called up. It was the best thing for him. He got better and the rest in history. Funny thing is....his position back then was SS and defensive minded, non-hitting Sr started ahead of him. He ultimately became the #1 pitcher for the next 3 seasons and we soon forgot about SS.  

When my son was a freshman, we had a senior SEC commit that was our starting catcher.  To save some wear and tear, they decided he was going to play SS (which was my son's position).  Coach had 2 choices.....move son to 2B or let him play SS every day on JV.  He went with JV.  We weren't thrilled at first, but our varsity 2B had so little action that in the end it ended up being a great call by the coach.  Son started at SS first game of sophomore year.  I really do think it ended up being the right call

I won't completely delve into the 5 tool thing but I think I've only seen/heard of about 5 freshmen who had 5 tools.  There are a lot that have the ability to have 5 tools and may be good at all 5 aspects of the game but not 5 tools as a freshman because you have to put that in perspective of 18U baseball not 14U baseball.  I think if you took the #1 freshman fielder in the US today they probably would not be 5 tools but I understand the comment.  It does show a little rose colored glasses mindset.  Would love to know his numbers for speed, hitting %, exit velo, and throwing speed.

There are numerous reasons HC would not bring a freshman up to varsity to sit behind upperclassmen including not getting playing time and you don't get better sitting on the bench.  Parent who will complain when little Johnny does not get to play (if they are good enough to be on varsity they should get to play).  He would be the third wheel at practice and would not get reps.  When most teams practice, only their starters get reps in a lot of drills and scrimmages.  Not ready maturity wise.  And I could go on and on.

Being a private school, the coach may have kept the other 4-5 that won't play because of MONEY.  Some times those kids' parents are the ones who give the most along with the rewarding a kid for hanging with the program.  If I've got to choose between a freshman to sit the bench and a senior to sit the bench I'm taking the senior all day. 

You have heard this many times so far.  Stop stressing and enjoy the ride. 

CONCERNEDPAPA, you could always try soccer!  Oh wait, that doesn’t work out so well either does it?!? 

Freshman who deserve to start on the Varsity team...it's amazing how many of them there are. 

To me, that either means you are a future major leaguer, are playing in a lesser conference, or are playing for a weak program. A 15yo has no business competing with 18yo's, all things being equal.

My son was the last player cut from varsity as a freshman. The upperclassmen didn’t mentor him during tryouts. Several feared he would take their spot and scorned him. When he was in 8th grade the varsity coach brought him to varsity practice a couple of times to put a scare into his junior shortstop. 

In a tryout scrimmage freshman year, from the mound he knocked down a senior cocaptain with an under the chin 0-2 fastball followed by a straight change. The upperclassmen knew he meant business.

i asked my son why I thought he didn’t make varsity. He was better than some of the starting nine. He responded upper body strength. He was 5’11” 135 as a freshman. He felt being sent down was a message to get stronger.

The couple of times he was called up as an emergency relief pitcher (never got in) he wasn’t mentored. He was ignored.

57special posted:

Freshman who deserve to start on the Varsity team...it's amazing how many of them there are. 

To me, that either means you are a future major leaguer, are playing in a lesser conference, or are playing for a weak program. A 15yo has no business competing with 18yo's, all things being equal.

It’s a lot worse in softball. Girls physically mature sooner. A D1 prospect usually starts as a freshman. They’re getting offers as rising freshman and son’s. 

My daughter’s high school junior year roster had future college players/commits sitting on the bench waiting for the five D1 prospects in one class to graduate. When these five were seniors the entire lineup had college commitments. The 6’ freshman first baseman, cleanup hitter was a D1 commit. She played 18u Gold after 8th grade.

Along comes the 14u studdette with the clueless parent. The parent doesn’t realize the starters were all playing 18u Gold as freshmen. They start videoing practice looking for any mistake any player not their daughter makes to take to the AD. Finally, the coach banned parents from practice. Imagine going to the AD against a coach with four straight conference titles and trips to states.

PABaseball posted:

baseballmom posted:

A few things you ought to be teaching your son:

1. Baseball is a TEAM sport.

2. There is no "I" in TEAM.

3. Coach is the boss of the TEAM. Your son works for COACH when he is between the lines. JV is giving him reps, play time. Be thankful!... He's learning &/ or polishing up some life skills, like patience, perseverance, persistance...and mostly TEAM building.

4. Because COACH is BOSS, it is HIS job to win games by utilizing the players that give the TEAM the best opportunity to WIN. 

Is your son learning to be a TEAM PLAYER? 

I don't like this mentality. You never really feel part of a team unless you're playing. So until you're starting or getting meaningful time it's not the same. Ask a bench player and the starting SS who the championship meant more to. I'll put the farm on the SS. When a coach says we need to play better, he means his regulars need to play better, not the 4 guys at the end of the bench who have a combined 10 ABs on the season. When coaches say everybody is equally important, they're lying.

If you're unselfish to the point where your goals and work matters less than the team, I would have to question the motivation. So yeah be about the team, cheerlead and go about your business, but don't become content because that is what is best for the team. Why would I care about a team I'm barely part of? Why would I cheer for players who are directly in the way of what I want? I like a me first mentality until you're part of a team and it's time to win some games. Maybe that is selfish, but maybe you need to be selfish to get ahead. That is the competition within the competition. Think Aaron Rodgers feels a stronger connection to the team now or when he was sitting behind Favre? 

PABaseball, the OP, nor anyone else is referring to a bench player or cheerleader; or to a coach saying "everybody is equal". 

Do you have anything of value to offer ConcernedPapa? 

If you don't like my posts (or others, as has been observed), it's real easy to  "walk on by"...

Unfortunately people aren't reading the details.  The varisty team is 9 -12 strong. D1 power 5 verbal commits.  I never said he should start.  I expected he would play JV, but our jv team is not well run . Not much teaching or reps.  When it came  to tryouts my son was objectively better than all than maybe 5 of the kids.  I would love for him to play JV and practice with varisty so D1 MIF can mentor him,  and he can get more teaching reps. I would hope the HC would want to develop him that way, rather than send him down and practice with far less talented kids and maybe not quite as good instruction.  This is not a case of my kids great deserves....its about how to develop players. He will not stay down not get as many reps or as good instruction for 1 and maybe even 2 years behind upper classmen just because of year. I could say this about another boy or two in his class as well. For all you crazies chiming in with 5 tool / not a 5 tool guy  He runs in the 6 s. Throws and exits in the mid 80s,  with a SS glove that can always get better.  

baseballmom posted:

PABaseball posted:

baseballmom posted:

A few things you ought to be teaching your son:

1. Baseball is a TEAM sport.

2. There is no "I" in TEAM.

3. Coach is the boss of the TEAM. Your son works for COACH when he is between the lines. JV is giving him reps, play time. Be thankful!... He's learning &/ or polishing up some life skills, like patience, perseverance, persistance...and mostly TEAM building.

4. Because COACH is BOSS, it is HIS job to win games by utilizing the players that give the TEAM the best opportunity to WIN. 

Is your son learning to be a TEAM PLAYER? 

I don't like this mentality. You never really feel part of a team unless you're playing. So until you're starting or getting meaningful time it's not the same. Ask a bench player and the starting SS who the championship meant more to. I'll put the farm on the SS. When a coach says we need to play better, he means his regulars need to play better, not the 4 guys at the end of the bench who have a combined 10 ABs on the season. When coaches say everybody is equally important, they're lying.

If you're unselfish to the point where your goals and work matters less than the team, I would have to question the motivation. So yeah be about the team, cheerlead and go about your business, but don't become content because that is what is best for the team. Why would I care about a team I'm barely part of? Why would I cheer for players who are directly in the way of what I want? I like a me first mentality until you're part of a team and it's time to win some games. Maybe that is selfish, but maybe you need to be selfish to get ahead. That is the competition within the competition. Think Aaron Rodgers feels a stronger connection to the team now or when he was sitting behind Favre? 

PABaseball, the OP, nor anyone else is referring to a bench player or cheerleader; or to a coach saying "everybody is equal". 

Do you have anything of value to offer ConcernedPapa? 

If you don't like my posts (or others, as has been observed), it's real easy to  "walk on by"...

Two people can disagree without it becoming an issue. You offered your opinion, I offered mine. Has nothing to do with liking your posts, has everything to do with my thoughts on the subject matter. 

Considering he liked the message, I would say I probably offered something of value to him, even if it only made him stop and think for a second. Went through it with a freshman this year as we watched the starting shortstop make error after error, so been there in a sense.

If I'm viewed on here as the community sh!t stirrer, I'm more than happy to walk on by. But up until now nobody seemed to have a problem with what you observed. 

OP--I would not be too concerned about it...just let your son have fun!  HS Freshman year has very little impact on playing at the next level.  

ConcernedPapa posted:

Unfortunately people aren't reading the details.  The varisty team is 9 -12 strong. D1 power 5 verbal commits.  I never said he should start.  I expected he would play JV, but our jv team is not well run . Not much teaching or reps.  When it came  to tryouts my son was objectively better than all than maybe 5 of the kids.  I would love for him to play JV and practice with varisty so D1 MIF can mentor him,  and he can get more teaching reps. I would hope the HC would want to develop him that way, rather than send him down and practice with far less talented kids and maybe not quite as good instruction.  This is not a case of my kids great deserves....its about how to develop players. He will not stay down not get as many reps or as good instruction for 1 and maybe even 2 years behind upper classmen just because of year. I could say this about another boy or two in his class as well. For all you crazies chiming in with 5 tool / not a 5 tool guy  He runs in the 6 s. Throws and exits in the mid 80s,  with a SS glove that can always get better.  

I think people on this board have a better understanding than you are giving them credit for.  It is a rare HS coach that is thinking about developing younger players at the expense of upperclassmen. It is even more rare for upperclassmen to mentor a freshman that may already be better than they are. It is even more rare for a JV program to be well run and provide meaningful practice reps. So I think the conclusion I have come to is that your expectations aren’t realistic. Not that there is anything wrong with what you are wanting, its just not gonna happen. 

ConcernedPapa posted:

Unfortunately people aren't reading the details.  The varisty team is 9 -12 strong. D1 power 5 verbal commits.  I never said he should start.  I expected he would play JV, but our jv team is not well run . Not much teaching or reps.  When it came  to tryouts my son was objectively better than all than maybe 5 of the kids.  I would love for him to play JV and practice with varisty so D1 MIF can mentor him,  and he can get more teaching reps. I would hope the HC would want to develop him that way, rather than send him down and practice with far less talented kids and maybe not quite as good instruction.  This is not a case of my kids great deserves....its about how to develop players. He will not stay down not get as many reps or as good instruction for 1 and maybe even 2 years behind upper classmen just because of year. I could say this about another boy or two in his class as well. For all you crazies chiming in with 5 tool / not a 5 tool guy  He runs in the 6 s. Throws and exits in the mid 80s,  with a SS glove that can always get better.  

You called your son a five tool player. People on this board expect five tool players to start varsity and be D1 recruits. 

Since you’re new to the board I’m going to share a piece of advice you will see often here. You will see it so much you will start noticing every time professional athletes say it ... DON’T WORRY ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN’T CONTROL.

Your son gave it his best shot to make varsity. He didn’t. Now he has to play JV. His job is to overwhelm JV ball to the point where he deserves a shot on varsity. You job is to not “big time” other JV parents with your “better than their son” player. Be part of the group. If you hear crazy, delusional stuff program yourself to respond, “uh-huh.”

My son didn’t become a better player at JV practice when he was a freshman. He became a better player with all the reps we did on our own and playing for a top travel team. All JV ball provided was an avenue to prove he should be on varsity the following year. But he knew that. The coaches knew it. 

if you don’t learn to handle this situation you’re going to need a padded cell when college recruiting comes around.,

Good thread here and glad I saw it. Starting to get into the situation where my freshman son could possibly end up on varsity or JV. Their baseball class is separated into two groups, a group of kids who will be on the sophomore team and the JV team. The other group is the varsity team with possible sophomores who have a shot at varsity. My son got moved into that group. The fear is that if he makes varsity he will see limited time where on JV he will get PT. But this was a good read and going to worry a lot less about it.

When son was freshman, he connected with the top pitcher & arranged additional practises (30min to 1 hr) after hours, as time/ commitments permitted for both...It was a good time for some brainstorming strategy, technique development, etc. He also spent time with track kids working on burst & footwork...

So, much of the development you think the coach should be doing...actually falls on the player to seek out. Options are teammates or training facilities. Self motivation is fundamental to getting what he wants. 

ConcernedPapa posted:

Unfortunately people aren't reading the details.  The varisty team is 9 -12 strong. D1 power 5 verbal commits.  I never said he should start.  I expected he would play JV, but our jv team is not well run . Not much teaching or reps.  When it came  to tryouts my son was objectively better than all than maybe 5 of the kids.  I would love for him to play JV and practice with varisty so D1 MIF can mentor him,  and he can get more teaching reps. I would hope the HC would want to develop him that way, rather than send him down and practice with far less talented kids and maybe not quite as good instruction.  This is not a case of my kids great deserves....its about how to develop players. He will not stay down not get as many reps or as good instruction for 1 and maybe even 2 years behind upper classmen just because of year. I could say this about another boy or two in his class as well. For all you crazies chiming in with 5 tool / not a 5 tool guy  He runs in the 6 s. Throws and exits in the mid 80s,  with a SS glove that can always get better.  

Look...you are digging yourself a bigger hole. I went back and reread your posts and the problem is not us reading the details, it is you failing to provide details, other then how good your son is. You never said that the varsity team was 9-12 strong with D1 P5 commits until the above. You did not say he should start but you did said he was "clearly right behind the 2 MIF's" so that would make him the 3rd best MIF on the team. You did say that 4-5 players, who will never play in games, made varsity. You said your son was a 5-tool player as a freshman (in 3+ years of visiting this board, I have never heard any parent say those words, let alone the parent of a HS freshman). My son (soph in college) has 4 current teammates who are projected to get drafted in the top 50 in 2020 draft with 1 of those players projected as a top 2. I have never heard anyone label these players as 5-tool. 

These forums are hands down, the best source for all things related to playing amateur baseball and you start off your experience here with a question that you already have answered and looking for others to support. That is not how things work on this board. You are going to hear about our experiences and we will answer your question based on those experiences. There are also coaches, former coaches, scouts, former scouts, players, former players, etc. who know far more about the game then you or I because it was or is their life's passion! As I like to tell our players, always have a growth-mindset!

As for the the "crazies" comment, you might want to reevaluate who knows more about what it means to be a true 5-tool player!

CoachLD wrote: As for the the "crazies" comment, you might want to reevaluate who knows more about what it means to be a true 5-tool player!

Well, that about sums it up!  

Nice thread and especially good input from current and past HS coaches. Son played freshman baseball first year,and got called up also played a few JV games then limited ABs for varsity at playoffs. Then played V last three years. Saw a mix of coach playing best and playing upperclassmen which at times seemed to pull at opposite directions. College actually liked son's HS versatility at starting 6 positions (no P/1B/C) at varsity.

Son's college teammates were both shocked and razzed him when they found that my son was DH'ed for several games his sophomore year in HS. Note, son was a position player, not pitcher. A bad four games at plate I guess was reason; killed me as he couldn't be used for PR late in game, coach liked his defense, and wanted a senior to get ABs. It is what it is. Fast forward. This past June, the same player who was DH'ed for sophomore year HS, finished #2 in career hits for his college team, #6 in hits in conference all time.  Keep working. Repetitions are important, regardless of level. 

I am a bit confused (maybe because I do not live in Florida) but don't most HS baseball tryouts take place in the couple of weeks before the baseball season?  Don't some of the potential 2020 baseball team players play football?

Also, how big is your son's HS?

2022 grad posted:

Interesting how perspectives can differ.  Last year my son was a freshman on the bubble during varsity tryouts.  My wife and I were hoping he wouldnt make it be placed onto the JV team.  JV team has a great coach and he would get more playing time.  Last day of tryouts he got sent down to JV, coach told him to kick ass and come back stronger next year.  He ended the season with the best BA, best ERA, and tons of confidence.  It couldnt have turned out any better and he has had a fire under his butt all summer, weightlifting 3 time a week and hitting in the cages 5 days a week.  Adversity often brings the best out of people.

I was going to offer my son's freshman experience, but I see 2022 grad already wrote about it!  Seriously, this was almost identical to what happened with my son.  The one difference being the coaching on my son's JV team was not very good.  The coach was truly a high character guy and all of the boys loved playing for him, but he's the V football coach.  He just didn't have much background in or knowledge of baseball.  Is it better to have good coaching?  Sure it is - we can all agree on that.  But there is a silver lining in every situation if you look for it.  My son has played on a pretty high level travel team, where he was a middle of the pack contributor.  On this team he was a top player, and as a top player he was looked to by his teammates and by the coach to be a leader on the field, and he embraced that role.  He became much more vocal in discussing situational scenarios with the defense and setting a positive tone.  He was the player who said shake it off and get the next one when errors were made.  He's had fantastic coaching before and it's been instrumental to his development.  But he never learned as much about being a leader of a team as he did this year.  IMO, that's just as important to his success as knowing his cutoff assignments.  Oh, and those bubble players that went up to  V - they didn't play much.  All I'm saying is if you look at it from all angles I think your son is in a pretty good spot.  

I have a 2022, played JV as a freshman, in our league once a kid plays a V game they can't be moved back down. If he would have played V he would have been a PO, instead he played JV, played MIF and had a good season.

We do our tryouts in the fall where we also have about 10 scrimmages against other schools. Looks like he'll be 1 of 2 sophs that'll play V this year. I don't think playing a year of JV held him back. Also got to play his friends while adjusting to HS.

I'm not sure why you are so concerned about HS baseball. My son played HS baseball, enjoyed it, but it did nothing for him in regards to playing at the next level. TB and events like PBR got him a DI scholarship. We had a softball player here who didn't play an inning of HS softball until her Sr year (already had the scholarship) and received a scholarship to Vanderbilt. There's a saying I think applies here about controlling the things you can, accepting the things you can't, and knowing the difference.  You can't control what the HS coach will do, but you can control what TB team he plays on and what events he attends.

SomeBaseballDad posted:

I'm not sure why you are so concerned about HS baseball. My son played HS baseball, enjoyed it, but it did nothing for him in regards to playing at the next level. TB and events like PBR got him a DI scholarship. We had a softball player here who didn't play an inning of HS softball until her Sr year (already had the scholarship) and received a scholarship to Vanderbilt. There's a saying I think applies here about controlling the things you can, accepting the things you can't, and knowing the difference.  You can't control what the HS coach will do, but you can control what TB team he plays on and what events he attends.

Essentially what I said, but with some educated estimates of my own prediction of the diminimus effect of one year of JV high school ball if he's already playing travel ball among peers and is elevated to varsity next year.

If this resonates with you, relax.

Best case your son gets mad, motivated and focused.  For a school like you describe (by the current commitments), a freshman shouldn't be on varsity unless he is a starter.  Otherwise JV.

Several years back at son's school, four "stud" freshman 2020's showed up at tryouts.  The school is a 6-A in Texas, had several D1 commits and had won their district the prior year. Coach took one of the 2020's and made him a varsity starter for entire season.  Left the other three on JV.  JV didn't get the practice field much, had one coach that wasn't all into it, just rolled out a lineup each game (at the behest of the head coach).  Team went four rounds deep in the playoffs. The 2020 position players, as sophomores, started and the pitchers got innings.  Team lost in third round of playoffs.  Last season, the 2020's, now juniors were team leaders.  Along with a stud freshman shortstop and a senior college outfield, we lost in the state finals.  That took winning five 2 out of 3 series to get to state, then a semifinal win to get to the finals.

And this year the 2020's are seniors and we'll see what happens.  Maybe even get to play against Baseballhs this year at state!

Enjoy it, it goes by quick.

Go44dad posted:

Best case your son gets mad, motivated and focused.  For a school like you describe (by the current commitments), a freshman shouldn't be on varsity unless he is a starter.  Otherwise JV.

Several years back at son's school, four "stud" freshman 2020's showed up at tryouts.  The school is a 6-A in Texas, had several D1 commits and had won their district the prior year. Coach took one of the 2020's and made him a varsity starter for entire season.  Left the other three on JV.  JV didn't get the practice field much, had one coach that wasn't all into it, just rolled out a lineup each game (at the behest of the head coach).  Team went four rounds deep in the playoffs. The 2020 position players, as sophomores, started and the pitchers got innings.  Team lost in third round of playoffs.  Last season, the 2020's, now juniors were team leaders.  Along with a stud freshman shortstop and a senior college outfield, we lost in the state finals.  That took winning five 2 out of 3 series to get to state, then a semifinal win to get to the finals.

And this year the 2020's are seniors and we'll see what happens.  Maybe even get to play against Baseballhs this year at state!

Enjoy it, it goes by quick.

Yeah, well BaseballHS will have to get there for that to happen.  And with the talent that has rolled thru Lake Travis HS it boggles my mind that they can’t seem to do it 

OP--Here is the reality of HS baseball:

There are some great HS coaches out there....

There are some great HS programs out there...

There are some truly great HS players out there...

There are some HS coaches who have contacts that can help your player get a scholarship...

There are some HS coaches who are also travel ball coaches in the Summer...

There are some HS coaches who do not allow for their players to play travel ball...

There are some HS coaches who continually strive to educate themselves on the latest training strategies...

There are some HS coaches that can motivate players to give their all each day....

Things that you may not know:

There are some players who get scholarships before they even set foot on a HS field...

There are some players who never play HS baseball and STILL get scholarships...

There are some players who play only 1 or 2 years of HS baseball and still get P5 D1 scholarships...

There are some college and pro scouts....that place little value on HS stats / performance....

There are some Top 100 ranked HS players who never get drafted....

There are some players that get scholarships based on relationships instead of their playing ability..

There are some parents who belive HS baseball is the end all, be all....

The point is "some" is the minority in all of the above statements and is why this forum constantly tells new parents to relax and enjoy HS baseball for what it is. The chances of you finding a Perfect situation in HS is rare!

By the way, both College and Pro Scouts are well aware of the "some" factor!  If these coaches only recruited from perfect situations, there would not be enough players to fill the college and pro rosters!

Also, keep in mind that scouts are looking at individual player’s attributes. Scouts put little value on the HS team’s performance as they are mainly focused on finding players who can contribute at the next level.  

Focus on helping your son become the best athlete he can be....athletes are in high demand and can be spotted a mile away by scouts!

Day 1 of JV practice.  Papa has settled down and son is enjoying the camaraderie as usual.  Baseball has been a series of let downs and I'm always learning to temper expectations. Just like Scott said above i think the large majority of coaches it's a job, they aren't professionals. Such as life. If baseball has taught me one thing it's that it mimics life. Between daddy ball at the younger ages, to money grab at the showcase levels to politics of HS baseball, I'm shocked any of us enjoy this ride.  I dont like roller coasters and often find an excuse not to go on them.  LoL.  A lot of you all said keep working and get you private reps and workouts, that's what is really needed to improve,  and this was never really an issue about that. He would not be where he is today without very hard work. Yesterday was team gym before school,  practice from 4 to 6 and then showcase practice 8 to 10. I know sounds like a lot.  He is off this weekend.   I guess I am most disappointed with the adults in the room not working as hard or caring as much about the kid . They aren't making the most of practices, put kids on teams and in games  that haven't worked as hard but can afford admission,  and tend not to be honest with families about why they aren't playing. Good luck to all you with kids, or coaches with your careers, like I said before I hope to reblog in 4 years with more complaints. 

ConcernedPapa posted:

Day 1 of JV practice.  Papa has settled down and son is enjoying the camaraderie as usual.  Baseball has been a series of let downs and I'm always learning to temper expectations. Just like Scott said above i think the large majority of coaches it's a job, they aren't professionals. Such as life. If baseball has taught me one thing it's that it mimics life. Between daddy ball at the younger ages, to money grab at the showcase levels to politics of HS baseball, I'm shocked any of us enjoy this ride.  I dont like roller coasters and often find an excuse not to go on them.  LoL.  A lot of you all said keep working and get you private reps and workouts, that's what is really needed to improve,  and this was never really an issue about that. He would not be where he is today without very hard work. Yesterday was team gym before school,  practice from 4 to 6 and then showcase practice 8 to 10. I know sounds like a lot.  He is off this weekend.   I guess I am most disappointed with the adults in the room not working as hard or caring as much about the kid . They aren't making the most of practices, put kids on teams and in games  that haven't worked as hard but can afford admission,  and tend not to be honest with families about why they aren't playing. Good luck to all you with kids, or coaches with your careers, like I said before I hope to reblog in 4 years with more complaints. 

I understand your last sentence here "I hope to reblog in 4 years with more complaints" to be tongue in cheek, but I would stress that should anyone's child make it to the college level, nothing more than a vocal armchair qb sitting at home commenting on the status of the program, coaching moves, playing time, etc. can ruin what should be a good time.....when your son graduates and gets a job are you going to comment on the status of his workplace....probably not....in my experience college baseball is closer to professional life than high school baseball and youth sport leagues.

Between daddy ball at the younger ages, to money grab at the showcase levels to politics of HS baseball, I'm shocked any of us enjoy this ride.

If you do your due diligence this stuff typically doesn’t happen. If the player is in the top third of the roster talent at the school this stuff typically doesn’t happen. If it does talent quickly self corrects it.

i had two kids take the journey. Both came into high school playing three sports. Both played college baseball/softball. I never experienced daddy ball with them, they went to all the right recruiting events and one got cut from basketball because the coach didn’t like his players not focused all year. The only two sport varsity basketball players I remember over eight years became pro athletes in their other sport and could have played college basketball. In other words they were too talented for the coach to stick to his “basketball only” stance.

Many parents make the mistake of thinking their kid is getting screwed. Often their kid is in competition with another player. In the coach’s view the other player’s skills will be more helpful to the team effort. At the same time the parent is evaluating their kid’s skills and seeing them at 150% of reality. 

You're not going to enjoy the journey until you get proper perspective. Right now you appear locked and loaded for excuses and blame.

I will say I have never experienced daddy ball with the second two.  I know it exists and have seen it but not with my last two.  I think I learned a few lessons with the first one.  Get out of the local stuff as fast as you can afford and play as high of a level as you can play/afford as fast as you can.  That normally takes care of it.  I will also agree with the top 1/3 of the team does not experience it most of the time factor comes into play.  I tell people all the time don't play on a team that has a daddy as a head coach if you have other options and that solves the daddy ball stuff. 

I may come off as the sadistic dad but imo this is journey of discovery and maturity for the kid. Dealing with unfairness and figuring out how to get past it and thrive will build better character then a string of on field success. 

Father’s coaching isn’t always bad. But it’s a red flag to check out. I organized a very successful 13u to 16u team with four dad coaches. I was the head coach. My son played short at school. He didn’t win the shortstop job on this team. I figured as the most athletic kid he could play wherever position the pitcher came from. None of the coach’s kids got any favors. Our team attracted daddy ball victims. There were other teams like ours I knew weren’t daddy ball problems.

Once at 14u you’re not going to fool kids anymore. They’re getting baseball savvy. They can see BS when it exists. It’s why there’s so much team changeover after 14u. Coach Daddy who can’t coach isn’t fooling anyone anymore 

I wasn’t into raiding teams. But one weekend we had off my son was asked to play for a team with a daddy ball reputation. They were having roster problems. I told my son to spend the weekend selling our team for next year to their best player. 

At 17u dads typically don’t have college contacts unless they’re in the game at some level. When my son was asked to play 17u at sixteen I folded the team.