John Smoltz's HOF speech on specialization

 

 

Event after event is the key. Pressure to be there. But who does it benefit most? I think you made a very wise decision to shut down and stuck to that decision against popular theory backlash.

Of course, the dates you list are when the games occur -- and there is some overlap there (e.g. basketball and baseball both can have games in February, not even accounting for playoffs) -- but as you allude to, the real heavy overlap is with practices. At 2019Son's school, baseball tryouts are late November, and they go from that into practices in December and January. It is extremely difficult for a kid to play, say, basketball and baseball -- I mean, he'd have to miss most of the first couple months of baseball practice. And at large, competitive schools with lots of kids who will go on to play D-1 in college, it's difficult. Fall-Spring (e.g., football-baseball) is much more doable.

I could see someone argue that too many kids are pitching instead of just throwing.  But we all know kids in the past generations who threw their arm out and they didn't have the year round options like now; so was it an epidemic or jsut what happens?

I certainly don't agree with the word epidemic.  Seems like lots of people are latching on to that word these days.  Do they call all those hip replacements and knee replacements they do these days an epidemic?

 

That said it is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Any surgery is a serious issue.  There is no magic formula for eliminating TJ surgeries.  We have joined MLB and USA Baseball in using the PitchSmart guidelines. The hope is to help educate people regarding abuse and recovery.

 

There is no perfect answer and everyone knows that. It is all about fatigue because everyone seems to agree pitching when fatigued is dangerous.  Problem is that every pitcher is different when it comes to fatigue setting in.  You could have a 100 pitch limit, but some pitchers can't get to 100 pitches without being gassed.  Others might be able to go more than 100 without getting overly tired.  So the truth is that some pitchers should not throw 100 pitches in an outing, no matter what the guidelines are.

 

PitchSmart, like everything else, is not perfect. However, it does provide good information that if followed would in fact lower the chance for surgery in many cases. It can help educate many that don't understand extremes.  Common sense then needs to prevail.  The kid that is completely gassed at 50 pitches shouldn't throw 100 pitches because the rule says he can.  That last 50 pitches are very dangerous! Sometimes we see pitchers that are done after a couple innings.  They lose some control, their velocity suddenly drops, their breaking balls aren't as sharp, but many times they stay out there as long as they are getting enough outs.  Even if those outs are due to luck and line drives being at someone.

 

We have seen all types of pitchers that end up with TJ surgery.  Seen those that have been overused and seen those that really played ultra safe. One such pitcher who went in the 1st round a couple years ago. I doubt he ever threw 100 pitches in an outing and doubt if he threw more than 50 innings total his last two years of HS.

Good for you!

This is about parents using their common sense, and you did just that!

Best of luck to your son!

Drop me a pm to let me know where I can see him play!!!!!

I am glad my school has chosen to pay for me and my assistant to treat injuries happening at club events. Because realistically, that's what is happening. Do we have injuries that occur in our school team events? Definitely. But I am just guessing that ~70% of the injuries we dealt with this past year were injuries that occurred in club/travel/select practices and games. Other than a couple of concussions, all but one or two of our baseball team's injuries this year were overuse injuries. And they occurred before the school season started. In every sport, it's bad. Soccer, basketball, dance, cheerleading, baseball, softball, volleyball. You name it. OUT OF CONTROL.

Your chances of reaching the majors

Round 1:      66%

Round 2:      49%

Round 3-5    32%

Round 6-10   20%

Round 11-20 11%

Round 21+    7%

Non drafted   4%

 Its all about development and projection. The more you play the

better you can be. The better you are, the higher you get drafted.

The higher you get drafted, the better your chances for making it

to the majors. Why would a very talented 6'4" pitcher want to break

his ankle or dislocate his shoulder playing basketball, when he has

a chance to be a top round draft pick? I can see why some of these

top players give up other sports.

       
       
I totally agree with your point and will take it one step further.  Even if you are one of the ones who never makes the bigs just being drafted in 1st or 2nd round is life changing money.

It seems so interesting that each time this gets posted and discussed, (a lot on this site!) posters seem to grasp onto ideologies and preconceived notions.

For me, this is just a learning experience to understand other ideas and to consider them, not reject them without consideration.

For me, pointing to 1st and 2nd round picks is of little help.  The discussion is for the vast majority of players and their parents, most of whom may not ever hear their son's name called during the draft, but they are pushing really really hard to get that direction(and pushing many others along the way).

As TPM noted, one of the major issues is the TJ's for kids who are 14/15/16/17.

I guess Dr Andrews could be wrong but, for this poster, there isn't anything posted thus far to suggest anyone has more and better experience than he does.

Having Tommy John surgery is also "life changing money." Except it's leaving your possession instead of going into your possession..

Have you actually looked at Andrews findings?  Everyone gets the concept of not over pitching a kid, problem is even the accepted limits are guesses and proved wrong for some kids.  Another constant debate on here is when is it okay for a kid to throw a curve ball?  It's widely accepted the younger you start the more damage you do....yet Andrews own study couldn't find any proof it did any more damage than a fastball.

Some people on this board say their child made it because they didn't pitch much when younger.  Others profess their kid made it because of intense practice from a young age.  Many say kids don't throw enough, others say no overhead throwing for 3-4 months to fix micro tears.

I think one of the only things the board agrees on is that genetics play a huge part in if a kid makes it.  The rest is just opinions...make your own.

Fair enough. I don't think the 1st or 2nd round data has anything to do with TJ -- at least I didn't intend it to. It's a different point about multisport athletes. Every time I see someone like Buddy Bell say that "he preferred athletes who played multiple sports" . . . um, I'm skeptical, to say the least. Really, I think the whole "multisport" argument in the baseball world is code for "football makes you tough" . . . 

The opinions of doctors weigh much heavier than the opinions of individuals who are making big money on sport specialization. And those people are out there. I have heard Dr. Andrews speak on more than one occasion. I have read his book (which I suggest y'all read as well "Any Given Monday.") and I have read plenty of the research coming out of his facilities.

 

Nobody knows better than he does. When he speaks, I listen. Parents of athlete would be wise to do so as well.

       
       
2019 don't get me started...   preaching to the choir on the big bad tough football player thing.  Caco you make a lot of really good points.  Would like to think its not all genetic and a kid can work hard to succeed.  But you are undeniably correct that we have yet to pinpoint how to actually keep arms safe.

"Have you actually looked at Andrews findings?"

Many of them actually. I read everything referenced to him even though our son won't play another inning.

It is information. It is highly reliable information from the orthopedic surgeon who is with the very, very best in terms of seeing the damage sports like baseball can produce and correcting them like not many do with surgery. I would think the study showing a "properly" thrown curve ball (interesting how things get remembered) does not cause more issues for the elbow and shoulder than a properly thrown fastball lends credence and objectivity to what Dr. Andrews and his peer group are providing as guidance.  I believe you will also find the article strongly supports the view that most curve balls are not properly thrown by youth pitchers.

But what do I know?  Just seems to me that one might think too many of  those on the way up dismiss the message and messenger.

 

Like I said!!!!!

""football makes you tough" . . . "

 

Football can provide a different mental approach which can translate well to baseball, especially for a guy who has to mentally work through the the mental challenges which exist as someone moves up each step beyond HS baseball. Tough in football does translate to baseball unless the skills already exist to play both sports.

The mental focus and strength which can be learned from football certainly can translate. I never played HS football.

And I did! That's funny. I love football, but, like I said, I'm skeptical -- baseball players from Japan, Korea, Latin America seem to do just fine without getting football training to teach them mental focus and strength. And the point about the 2015 first-round draft picks applies, too -- that is, those kids are succeeding at the highest level (for their age) without that football training.

 

I don't know anything about Korea but have exposure to your other illustrations.

For those playing in Japan, the game is taught with a respect and discipline which is far closer to US football than baseball, from very young ages.  Personally, I think the background of baseball in Japan correlates very well with the idea football teaches the mental focus and strength which is too often missing in our youth baseball.

Latin players are just a point of personal experience but I can assure you those with 6 figure bonuses can struggle in Milb. I have also seen a $1,000 senior sign (yes, football)  pass by 6 figure bonus guys from Latin countries who had incredible tools, but were overwhelmed in Milb, probably for a lot of reasons.

There's nothing wrong with a properly thrown curve at any age. The problem is most preteens don't throw a curve properly. Then add in the typical preteen coach knows little about mechanics and mechanics affected by fatigue (dropping elbow). 

This football thing is driving me crazy.  My high school holds the record for most mlb players produced in the state of illinois.  Last I knew they were still neck and neck with mount carmel for most football state titles in illinois history.  So kind of a nice case study fir us.  Produced way too many college baseball players even to remember.  So let's just look at the kids drafted while I was there...  two kids drafted three years ahead of me.  One played football one didn't.   2 years ahead of me not sure we had a draft pick.  One year ahead of me one did not play football for sure and I can't honestly remember if the other did.  My year we only had one drafted and he was a back up on football team.  Year behind me had three draft choices none of which played football that I can remember.  Some did, some didn't.   Only one was a football stud - and gordie told him he would cut him if he came out his senior year cause he didn't want to jeopordize what was likely to be a major league career.  Classy move.  He did go on to a long and successful mlb career.  And he would quite possibly have been the best QB in the state.his senior year.  We won the football state championship without him and he was the overall number 2 pick in the nation.  A happy ending for all.  And a football coach who was smart enough and selfless enough to know football was NOT what was best for him. Some  football people tend not to see beyond their nose.  IMO they think because in high school they draw the crowds and revenue that life begins and ends with them.  Football is ABSOLUTELY UNECCESARY for success in life and believe it or not (please don't upset the football people by telling them this) a man can actually grow up tough and disciplined just fine without football.

2020dad,

 

I believe that 2nd over all draft pick from Illinois is someone we know very well.  His son (not from Illinois) attended several PG events.  His son was also a very good pitcher, just not as good as dad.

 

Here is the way I look at football.  I love the sport and I do like those kids that play both football and baseball.  I do think there is an advantage that some baseball players gain by playing football.  At the same time there is a risk involved.

 

We know of one potential 1st round baseball player that ended his athletic career on a football field.  However that is sort of rare.

 

Anyone that thinks football is necessary in order to have any advantage is simply not following the MLB draft every year.  Whether anyone likes to hear it or not, the vast majority of those drafted in the first couple rounds are those that in fact played only baseball.

 

Last night the Astros were playing the Angels on television.  The youngest starting pitcher in baseball Lance McCullers (specialized in baseball).  The youngest player in the Major Leagues Carlos Correa (specialized in baseball) The star of the game Altuve (specialized in baseball). Two HRs by Astros Tucker and Singleton (both specialized in baseball).  Home Run by Angels Pujols (specialized in baseball) catcher for the Astros Conger (specialized in baseball). The games best player Trout (specialized in baseball). The list goes on and on of the top players in the game that specialized in baseball when they were young.

 

It would be revealing if someone actually researched the topic before telling young kids what they should do.  Go down a list of all stars or hall of famers, or whatever, and research what they did when they were in high school.  I believe that would be very interesting and revealing.

 

All that said, there have been many multi sport athletes become baseball stars.  So my point is, do what you want to do!  It can and it has worked either way.  The one thing that most MLB players have in common is they played a lot of baseball when they were younger.  Anytime you play a lot of something there is always a risk of injury involved. But lets face it, that risk of injury is most obvious in football.

 

There are a lot of tough people that never played football.  There are high schools that don't have football.  Football is a great game, I played it because I loved it.  I played baseball and basketball for the same reason.  In those days that is what many kids did.  Now days many coaches like their kids to play one sport.  Believe me it is far from a baseball thing.  Maybe we should research the NBA and see how many of those great athletes specialized in basketball only?

 

It is really kind of simple, the more you work at something the better you are suppose to get at that something.  I know this topic is about pitching and Smoltz.  I sure don't believe pitchers should compete year round.  But there is nothing wrong with concentrating on that craft year round.  Taking time off can be a good thing if you are a pitcher.  Taking time off can be refreshing for any athlete.  However, how do you become a better piano player? How do you become a better video game player?  How do you become a better golfer?  Gardener? Cook? Carpenter?  

 

How do you become a better baseball player and hitter?  

 

While I am at it.... Burn out is a word that describes FAILURE!  Those that reach the top didn't burn out. If you want something bad enough and you believe you have the ability to go get it... You don't burn out!  Only when you stop believing does burn out set in.  Even then it is just a simple excuse for giving up.  Truth is, there is nothing wrong with giving up, everybody does it at something. You don't need to look for an excuse. It just didn't mean enough to you.  Because when it means enough no person or obstacle can burn you out. You just try to find the way. Then if in the end you fail, you don't need any excuses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, guess I was referring to football And didn't check for other sports.  You have to think Trout would have been a great HS football player. Yet he played baseball in the fall.

Actually, Trout's father was a HS football coach.  Mike played JV, but never varsity.  He stopped playing to focus more on baseball his soph or junior year.

Nailed it PG.  Thats all I am saying.  Do what you want.  Live and let live.  More than one way to skin a cat.  My son will probably play basketball all the way through high school.  Not because he expects a basketball scholarship,  but because he enjoys playing.  His dream is in baseball and while he also plays basketball he will be doing something baseball related year round.  And burn out is not anywhere close to setting in.  His dream.  His choice.  Not a matter of right or wrong.

Yeah what PG said!

My son specialized in one sport in HS. But from grade school on until HS, he played other sports, volleyball, soccer, golf, basketball, bowling, swimming, etc. He did not specialize in baseball until HS.

The point being, he didnt play baseball 365 a year and didnt play baseball and other sports at the same time.

I think that is the point of the whole speech he made, but that is MO only.

Originally Posted by cabbagedad:

… There is definitely an issue with young kids pitching too many stressful innings over the course of each year and not getting adequate rest.  And in most cases, it's the best pitchers being pulled from all directions and having a hard time saying no to the next "season", team, coach, dad, event, showcase, scout or other opportunity to be seen.

 

Very nice post!

 

I’m betting a lot of folks are mistaking their little Nolan Ryan for being among the best pitchers, and since they really aren’t, they don’t see the constant pushing and tugging the top players are getting. Just because Jr. had a great K:BB ratio or won a lot of games for his HS team, it doesn’t mean he’s an elite pitcher.

Two of JP's 2016 travel ball teammates (different teams) have already had TJ.

 

Both are very high-velo guys who pitched too much at a young age.

 

Both have (at least temporarily -- maybe permanently) lost out on huge opportunities. 

 

Why any parent of a high-velo pitcher at 14-15 would allow him to be overused is beyond me.

 

 

Can you give examples of what their overuse was?  Obviously pitching 150+ pitches every Saturday for 10 months would be overuse, but can you be specific on what theirs was?

Some questions.

 

Probably in all sports suffer to some degree from a rash of overuse injuries.   But does any sport suffer more from it than baseball -- pitchers in particular?  I'm guessing not. Maybe tennis?  Swimmers?

 

Some sports you couldn't possibly play all year round -- you would be far too beat up at the end of the year.  I'm thinking football, mainly.  Or things like it -- rugby, possibly lacross.    So presumably it's mostly non-contact sports that have morphed into being all year round sports. 

 

Is the main reason to be a multisports athlete to prevent overuse and burnout?   Or does playing multiple sports actually somehow help you play each one better?  I'm not sure, but I suspect the former not the latter.   It's not as though the skills you need to be an outstanding point guard have much to do with the skills you need to hit a 90+ mph curveball. (Correction -- that would be a 90+ mph FASTBALL -- not many guys throw their hook at 90. Actually does anybody? ) Ask Michael Jordon about that guards hitting baseballs. 

Football and hockey are probably the two sports where you would be least likely to survive playing "year round." That's one reason football has developed the 7v7 that they have. Baseball/softball, swimming, soccer, distance running, basketball, and volleyball tend to be the worst for us. Our kids play all the time. I think volleyball tryouts for club teams fall only two weeks after the school season ends. That will run all the way until the middle of the summer until they start the school season again, basically.

 

I have to have conversations with kids from a lot of different sports on a regular basis about the need to back off. We have to help them prioritize what is truly important and what can be missed. Sometimes that means I even have to go as far as to put a kid with a lower body injury on crutches or a kid with a shoulder issue into a sling; just to get them to STOP. 

Pitcher 1: From 12 or 13 years old on, he was CONSTANTLY working on pitching. Lots of long-toss (don't know details), and played in Texas for select teams that were in a LOT of tournaments starting in February -- often VERY cold weather -- all the way through August at least. It wasn't consecutive-days pitching, or throwing 150 in a game (although I did see him at 14 throw 125) -- it was just obvious that this young man was over-pitching. He was out for brief spells with arm issues almost every year from 12-15. And he'd come back, healed and HURLING. I'm talking mid-80's at a very young age -- 90+ in HS. It all ended with the SNAP! His elite D1 offer included. 

 

Pitcher 2 is from the northeast. He worked his tail off. Long toss all the time. But guarded fiercely by his select coach. Unfortunately, as a senior this year, his HS team was heading to State -- and his HS coach pitched him with one or two days' rest (can't remember), and when the MLB teams that were looking at him as a 95+ very high draft pick had him take a physical, they diagnosed the tear.

 

Both are sickening.  

Here is my biggest beef regarding TJ surgery.

 

ASMI did a survey among all those players that had TJ surgery.  The findings were then released and included many factors that then were used to determine what the major causes were.

 

That in itself is great, but it is not everything we need to know.

 

Listen, I have never claimed to be very intelligent, but to me this is only a partial survey.

 

In order to find answers that truly represent the problem, you would need to take an equal group of both TJ guys and non TJ guys that were in similar situations.

 

For example what if that survey showed that a large percentage of those TJ guys played travel baseball, but a much larger percentage of the non TJ guys played travel baseball.  Even better what if the survey showed 30% of the TJ guys went to more than one showcase and played into the late fall, while 85% of the non TJ went to more than one showcase and played into the late fall.

 

I am not saying that those would be the results. I'm just saying that in order to get a true picture you have to account for both ways.

 

Guys like Zach Greinke played year around when he was young.  He also pitched and played a position. He was a very good player and hitter.  He played travel ball, he went to showcases, he even went to a showcase over the Christmas holidays. I really don't know if or how much he rested or how much he was over used, but he sure has logged a lot of pitches in the Major Leagues.  Shouldn't he be part of any survey?

You're right, PG.

 

Do you know ... was Zach a really high-velo guy when he was young? 

 

I don't know what I don't know, that's for sure - but I believe based on what I've read that pitchers who throw really hard are at a higher risk. And today, we see a LOT of young pitchers throwing very hard.

 

Maybe not.

 

Would you say PG sees more high-velo guys as a percentage of the whole today than they did, say, 5-7 years ago?

 

 

jp24,

 

Zach played in many of our tournaments, but that was before we started to log them all. He was a 90 mph guy both from the mound and from the infield. he even threw well from behind the plate, but he didn't catch very often. before his senior year he was up to 94 mph. during his final HS season I think he was up to 96.

 

Yes. it seems like most every year the number of high school kids throwing 90 or better is increasing.  20 years ago when PG first started we would get very excited when we would see a kid touching 90.  Now days we see a larger number of kids that are touching 95 or 96.  They seem to be bigger, stronger. more well trained, these days. Then again once in awhile we will see a little guy that doesn't look very strong throwing 95.

 

I see where (I believe it was the Mets, but not sure) brought in the same pitcher after a 45 minute rain delay.  Be interesting to see if anything happens. If so it will probably first show up in lower velocity next time he is out there. I've seen it before.

While lengthy, I think this is a nicely done summary of the "risks," the "risk takers" and why both sides are seemingly willing to take the risks, with the summary of Brady Aiken, if true, being quite poignant.  It is also interesting to see Stan Conte of the Dodgers now turning this into a cost issue noting that the DL in MLB is now a tab of $655,000,000 per year, when the salaries of those on the DL are factored into the equation.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_...surgeries-cease-soon

 

 

From this, one comes away with the idea that behavior changes need to occur, but they are not likely to occur unless they are economically driven, from the top, no matter what opinions  Dr Andrews, Dr Fleissig or any other group of medical experts might advocate.

While certainly not as life threatening, is the "risk" of overuse injury in baseball any different than the risk football players are now encountering with the emerging information on both the short and long term impact of head trauma and concussion?

Clearly, that research is only in its formative stages but seems compelling.  For a very few, like Chris Borland, the information and risk assessment caused him to change his behavior and no longer play in the NFL. For 99%, it is a risk they continue to accept, either knowingly or ????.

For baseball, shoulder surgeries and failed recoveries are, to be honest, a charade in terms of available information. While the numbers of shoulder surgeries appears to be on the decline, the population which recover to play even at their former levels was reported in 2008 to be less than 1 in 4.

For TJ, clearly most think it is a temporary setback and risk to be taken. Riding that fine edge of "risk" is worth it, especially for the players this thread, for whatever reason, continues to emphasize: the elite players drafted at the highest levels.

From a purely personal perspective, most of our sons will never reach the top 2 rounds of the draft. They are the nameless ones no one can cite but they are so important to us because they are our sons and they love baseball.

For them, one of the greatest parts of baseball can be the opportunity to compete and play in college, especially at a National level, whether it be JC, NAIA, D3, D2 or D1.

For a parent, watching their son on a quality college baseball team can be special. Personally, I am not sure I will ever forget the impression when ESPN scanned to justbaseball in the stands in Omaha in the 2008 CWS when his son was on the mound. For me, having this discussion is  truly is about the opportunity for the player on and especially after HS, emphasizing the experience which college baseball can provide.

This year Stanford lost their #1, #2 and #3 pitchers for either all or most of the season. The #1 had TJ at a point where he missed nearly all of 2015 and probably will miss most of 2016, when he will be drafted.  The kid who could have been their #1 is no longer even on the roster and pitched less than 5 innings over two years, a career lost to shoulder problems.

Just yesterday I was talking with the Dad of a local D1 who underwent TJ in May after being shutdown in late March, so he will miss most of 2015 and all of 2016.

This is truly all about a risk assessment. On the one side is the goal post...drafted or top D1 baseball and all the "apparent" exposure which parents and players feel is required from ages now 14-18 to get to the goal post.

On the other side is the risk, which is real but not to be quantifiable in  numbers for any player, parent or travel team and showcase folks, each of whom play a role in  riding the edge of  the "risks" of exposure vs injury vs. the goal post.

Frankly, each position in the risk assessment can rationalize a perspective, shoot the messenger, undermine the message and justify their position.  Just my view, but realizing there are no true "answers," only some appreciation of the risks and factors known or thought to generate risk from overuse vs necessary exposure vs unnecessary exposure vs the goal post, vs Zach Greinke vs Dr Andrews should be the goal of this discussion.

Understanding that the player has a mindset to do everything to compete and the more they compete the higher level they want to compete, and the higher intensity they will exert, the responsibility for an informed risk assessment falls on folks like us who post here. Information is golden for those who approach baseball from the different perspectives available on the HSBBW. There is plenty of information on this thread from every perspective and certainly from the opposites on ideology.

Hopefully those reading this who have sons like ours, a really nice player but not mentioned in the same paragraphs as those discussed previously will benefit from knowing there can be  risks associated with exposure, such as  the one the scouting bureau reportedly  created Brady for Aiken in January of 2014. 

There can also be experiences never to be forgotten in terms of baseball, and appreciating the Aiken situation, avoiding risk and eliminating  risk cannot be a deterrent to achieving those. In fact, overcoming through adversity and risk will often make the experience be felt at levels never anticipated.

I would agree with almost all of that. Only thing is Brady Aiken was not injured and was throwing 96 mph when everything changed.  From what I understand, it was discovered he had an abnormal UCL (I believe smaller than normal). That is what created the problem with Houston.  He did later (this year) have TJ surgery and still went in the first round, though a ways later than his previous 1st over all pick.

 

So we can't claim exposure got him.  We can only say that the Astros knew what they were doing and were aware there was more risk involved in paying him the max due to his small UCL. Later on we found the Astros turned out to be right.  Now it will be interesting to see how Brady's career turns out. I'm hoping he ends up being a great Major league pitcher.

 

That story just adds one more important element to the issue. What about the UCL you are born with? Genetics doesn't seem to be brought up that often. I doubt Brady Aiken is the only young man out there with an abnormal UCL.  And maybe others that seem to pitch forever without TJ, were born with an abnormally large or stronger UCL.

 

I'm not drawing for straws, I just believe this issue is so complex that we are just scratching the surface.

 

That and I happen to know some things about the subject that I simply can't say at this time. Reason being is I don't want to publicly discredit anyone or anything.  Those people involved at ASMI, MLB, USA Baseball are all doing the right thing with PitchSmart. And they also know it will take some time before we have all the answers. Educating the people is the first step and that is the goal for now. We will never figure it out if we just settle for what we have to go on today.