John Smoltz's HOF speech on specialization

Infielddad,

 

I sure don't want anyone to think I feel TJ surgery is just part of baseball and just fine.  In fact, everything I have mentioned is about protecting pitchers and coaches and parents needing to get involved.  The example I gave about the 100 pitch limit and the kid that shouldn't go past 50 is all about prevention. I've said over and over that I love the PitchSmart Guidelines.  We actually use them!  Surgery, of any kind, is not something anyone wishes for.

 

Now if you are referring to my problem with labeling this issue as an epidemic, my question would be... Is this an epidemic?  

 

You are correct when you say there are people out there that think TJ surgery is an easy fix.  Personally, I think that helps raise the numbers because some feel if there is any doubt, lets get the surgery done now.  Years ago it would take total loss of the UCL, now it is done with partial damage.  Surely that increases the numbers.  Surely the fact there are hundreds of surgeons, rather than one or two only a few years ago, that can perform the surgery must mean something.  

 

I believe 100% that prevention is important.  Always have!  Never wavered from that view.  So I don't wish to be portrayed as someone that ino simply OK with everything.

 

That said, I also agree with the viewpoints that roothog has brought up.  In fact, I don't know how anyone can even argue them.  And nowhere has he hinted that everything is OK.

 

 

       
       


I choose to think of my kid first and foremost as a KID, secondly as a baseball player. Silly me!

Just an FYI, sons surgeon did indicate that there are many parents out there that don't care because they know there is a "cure". 

The whole point is about educating parents on major surgeries on the rotator cuff and ulnar ligament. They have absolutely no idea of what is involved AFTER the surgery takes place.  

If anyone can pull up JH's blog on his TJS recovery, that is just the tip of the iceberg. Any parent who thinks that its ok to overuse their pitcher because they can have an operation has no business being a parent. 

 

That's how you see it, but anyone having major surgery is not something any parent wants to see their KID go threw, no matter what age his is. 

You have to stop justifying what you chose to do, that is your choice, and any consequence is on you.  Dont blame it on denying your child, it wont kill kids to have their wishes denied at some point in their lives.

I know that you have stated many times that your son wants to play college ball. I think you are trying to shoot higher for him and the "let him do what he wants to" is just an excuse parents use because they have absolutely no control over the word, no.

 

Plus, there is a lot of pressure from the smiths and jones. 

 

So what happens when your son reaches the most important time in the college recruiting process and he gets hurt, do you think any coach is going to give him a scholarship? 

"I choose to think of my kid first and foremost as a KID, secondly as a baseball player."

 

I think I understand what you're saying, Caco: Don't rob him of his childhood! And I AGREE! My ONLY goal for JP always has been to develop and maintain a love for this great game. After that, whatever happens, happens.

 

BUT ... if you have a son whose passion for pitching is so strong that he wants to become an MLB pitcher, and others see potential ... don't you HAVE to step in and -- using all available science -- tell him NO sometimes, so that he can achieve his dream? 

 

I guess my point is: Let kids be kids -- but if they have their eye on a man's game, and show the potential to make it ... step in. 

 

Because IF later, his arm is shot and he cannot pitch in the MLB, telling him "I was letting you be a kid" will offer little comfort.

Oh boy.  Had a long day and trying to catch up on this one made my head hurt...  I just want to summarize my thoughts.  And I am not an idiot.  I have coached many years before I became a parent.  You don't have to have an adult child to 'know things'.  So here gies:

1.) No sane person WANTS their kid to have TJS.
2.) Parenting IS an individual decision - yes provided the parents are not commiting crimes!
3.) None of us ha b e the key to wisdom
4.) I do believe the people on here believe in their heart they are helping
5.) I do listen, I really do.  But ultimately I have to make my own decision as a parent.
6.) No I will not stand for someone criticizing my parental decisions.  I don't do it to others and I won't stand still for it to be done to me.
7.) I do follow amsi guidelines not because it is the end all be all but because it seems to be the best we got eight now.
8.) Yes the radar gun part of that is an exception for me.  Yes I think its stupid.  And no i don't care if some pretigious doctor said it.  It doesn't make sense.  As has been stated many times here long before radar guns we threw the ball as hard as we could every pitch.
9.) I still know of nobody who PLAYS GAMES year round.
10.) No I am not going to tell my son 'no' about what HE wants to do about his sport choices.  Then I will just be ripped on some other thread for living vicariously and all that BS because I am not 'letting my kid be a kid' and play what He wants because after all its about him not about dad!  You see we can't have it both ways.  We can't change.our opinions based upon the current debate.

       
       
JP you seem to be handling this debate in a civil and sincere way.  Thanks.  (Or maybe I jist haven't had time to read all your posts yet lol.)  So I ask you sincerely, and I think this is where we are confused...  what are we supposed to say no to?  I don't think caco, me or anyone else promotes their kid playing games 365 or pitching year round.  So what are we supposed to say no to?  I ask sincerely not sarcastically.

Thanks for the kind words, 2020. 

 

I'm not a pitcher's dad, so know that. But as I posted earlier, I'm the dad of a boy who from a young age played a LOT. His teams won all the 'important stuff' -- USSSA, Super Series, Triple Crown (broadcast on CBC Sports - big WOW! at the time). Even Cooperstown.

 

What I've observed over the past seven years is that boys who PITCHED from a young age, and had a lot of potential, invariably pitched too much. Not in a single tournament ... or a single game ... but cumulatively. 

 

So ... if I had a son today who pitched (even if I didn't expect him to be great, but who LOVED to pitch) ... I guess I'd find a cap I was comfortable with in terms of number of pitches thrown in a calendar year, then make sure whoever coached him accepted that cap, and pitched him accordingly.

 

And I'd explain to my son that what matters isn't how many 13-year-olds he beats -- but how many 18-38-year olds he may some day beat! I'd tell him to go do something else for awhile! NO ONE wants to be one-dimensional anyway!

 

Yes -- it may mean fewer trophies, but friend ... with a son who'll leave us here in Texas next year to go to Oregon to play baseball, I can tell you: ALL THAT MATTERS is that he still loves this game.

 

What about just playing a position and not pitch for a season?

 

I don't think kids should be specializing in a position anyway because when they get to HS they most likely will be pitchers only (if that is their position the coach sees him at). That is when it really counts and that is where you as parents begin to lose control. 

Control it now while you can.

 

You know I am mot sure why I even bother to give advice, regardless of tone, which is very hard to decipher on a message board, but I am not a fluff kind of person. I just give advice because I dont want anyone to go through what son has had to go through and missed time being on the DL.

 

I am done here, you all can figure it out on your own.

Even if a  kid never plays another game after high school -- which most kids don't -- I would think  you  still don't want the kid damaging his arm from overuse.   It's not just about making sure they don't burn out before getting that big D1 scholarship.  When they are young they feel so indestructible.  They  have so little judgment.  They  so want to please their teammates, their coaches, their parents. 

 

TPM have you had a change of heart on pitching? Earlier in the year you stated if a coach asks a player to pitch he should pitch for the good of the team. My youngest son had arm issues 2 years ago and we've asked coaches not to pitch him or pitch him very little over the last 2 seasons. I'm not looking to stir things up just truly wondering if your views have changed.

Stuck,

In the event that TPM has left the building for the moment, I'll answer for her.  I have followed and appreciated TPM's solid, direct advice for some time.  This current thread has evolved a bit from specialization to injury risk.  I would be quite surprised (OK, shocked) if she made any such comment in the context of arm care/safety.  In another context, perhaps.

 

Not really sure what this comment is supposed to mean when it comes to this issue.   Are you suggesting that people who worry about overuse injuries in kids are seeing their kids primarily as baseball players rather than as kids.   If so, I don't really follow your logic.  Actually,  it seems to me the other way around.  Putting limits on a kid,  for the kid's own sake, especially when the kid is brimming with enthusiasm, but lacks mature judgment and experience, is what you do when you see the kid as a kid first and foremost. 

There was no arm care issues it was about Caco's son not wanting to pitch anymore because he would sit on the bench afterwards. That's why I thought there was a view change. I truly am curious to know because I think she does bring a lot of knowledge. For the record I think MLB disagrees with the Hal of Fame speech due to the fact of how many warm weather kids they draft compared to the cold weather kids. That's for positional players not pitchers.

       
       
Thanks JP.  And now I can happily say I am in full agreement with your specific concerns.  I talked to coaches before season about limits I am comfortable with.  I think they respected those wishes and only once pushed the envelop and I politely stepped in.  As I have said we stayed.well within amsi guidelines.  Your son seems to hae been on a powerhouse team.  We have picked up a few new kids for next year - all pitchers, legit.pitchers - so workload should be very tolerable next year.  Not sure we will be as good as your team but we should be pretty good.  Won't have to lean too heavily on any one pitcher.

You took what I said out of context. Being asked to pitch and not wanting to is completely different than being asked to pitch too much.

 

Sorry, that's why I asked.

 

Actually, if I remember correctly, Dr. Andrews says that he is doing a lot more 14-15 year olds. Which is downright scary. I've heard him speak a handful of times and he doesn't talk about surgery or rehabilitation in most of his talks. He talks about prevention. 

Could be, but we see many more kids over the age of 16 receiving TJ surgery.

 

i would be interested in knowing how many that contribute here know of kids having TJ surgery before the age of 16.  Compared to how many they might know about after the age of 16.

 

I'm sure it happens, but I don't know of, or have heard of, anyone 15 years old receiving TJ surgery.  I know about a hundred or more over the age of 16.  Must admit I tend to follow this much closer in the older age groups.

 

I'm not sure it means much, TJ surgery at any age is a big problem. It's a good thing that it is available these days, but I wouldn't wish it on anyone. 

To recap, Al Pal stated that "we didn't allow our LHP son to play year round ball until sophomore yr in HS" ...the key word being PLAY.  We can ALL go overboard with protecting arms in case the kid can make it to the next level or we can use common sense, try to go by pitch smart guidelines, and let the kids be kids.  I will not stop my son from being on a baseball team at age 11/12/13 year round with his buddies because he loves the game. 

 

My son pitches, but he doesn't want to ever be a PO.  He has played on a year long travel team from age 9 to his current almost 13, once again the team is together for a year, but they do not play all year, and not to tempt fate here but he has not had any medical issues.  If and when he does, because I do acknowledge that all athletes get hurt at some point, I will evaluate then where to go from there.  Until then, he is a KID first who loves to PLAY baseball, and I will not say "You can't be on a year round team because there is the possibility of you hurting your arm."

 

I want to let my kid be a KID first and a ball player second.  My number one priority is to keep him healthy because he is my child, not keep his arm healthy because he is a pitcher.

 

 

 

 

Root hog...sent u a pm

I don't really have any idea what you mean by "going overboard with protecting arms."

 

You say you'll worry about injury when and if the injury happens.  But the thing is that some injury may well be happening to your son in slow burn  already.  That's because some injuries are the  result of cumulative overuse that may seem no biggie along the way.   The kid feels fine all along the way, right up until the point that he doesn't. THen something snaps and the kid is never quite the same again.  When it finally happens, he may think it was something he did in the moment that caused the injury, that it was just bad luck or a bad day or something -- when in reality he's been in the process of injuring himself for years and years.   So I don't think one can really judge on the basis of how a kid feels at each given moment whether he's injuring himself or not.   It's like when I had a bad back problem, apparently out of the blue, with no particular traumatic event occurring.  I told my doctor,  "I didn't do anything. It just started hurting out of the blue."  She said,  "you've been doing it for 20 years, and just haven't noticed until now."  

 

Plus, you know,  it's  not just a matter of "protecting arms in case the kid make it to the next level."  It's a matter of protecting young arms period -- even if the kid lacks the talent and drive to ever "make it to the next level"  you STILL don't want to abuse the kid's arm.  Those injuries that we suffer in youth have a way of having lingering effects far beyond youth.  

 

As I said above, kids lack judgment, wisdom and experience.  They want to please their coaches, their teammates and, yes, their parents.   Isn't the job of a parent to do that on the kid's behalf?   I would think that part of what  "letting a kid be a kid" amounts to is not asking them to make adult decisions, but also not side-stepping our responsibility as adults to make such decisions on their behalf.

You said above "I don't really have any idea what you mean by "going overboard with protecting arms.".......what I mean is clearly laid out in the rest of your response.  Is it possible my son is hurting his arm from pitching, even though he is following the ASMI rules AND receiving lessons to address any mechanical flaws...yes it's 100% possible.  It's also possible he has a slow growing brain tumor, so I am choosing to focus on him being a kid, and playing a game he loves, rather than wrapping him up in a bubble wrap waiting for the what if's the happen.

 

If I was saying "forget the ASMI" guidelines, I know better" I could understand the responses here saying I am heading down the wrong path with letting my kid play on a team year round, but I am not saying that.  I am following every guideline out there to protect my son's health while letting him play the game he loves. 

 

I do not want to look back and have to explain to my son why all the kids on his high school team got to play year round baseball from 9 and have all these great memories of summer trips, and winter training with his buddies, but he doesn't have those memories because I wrapped him in a bubble based on a possibility that he MIGHT hurt himself....that is overboard to me, and not allowing him to be a kid.  Before I get the smith/jones'es comments my response would be the same if it were regarding a summer camp, or a music club, part of being a kid is being with your friends, why not do it on a ball field?  If my kid starts throwing 90+ I will change my tune on how much he can throw, for now he's throwing 70, which is not even close.

By the time if and when he reaches 90+ he will be too old for you to limit his activity. 

I think that's a point you are missing. Control what you can while you can. 

Some choose to do that and others don't. No one said you are a bad parent because of what you choose to do so stop defending yourself.

 

I was just away for a week, however, the town I was staying in happened to be having a national youth tournament going on.  One day when the rest of the family was tired I went over to the fields to watch for a while.  I had this thread in mind so I was specifically looking for things to share in this discussion.

The first thing that stood out is how many times during  the game I was watching  I  heard a coach, parent, sibling, whoever, yell  something like “throw hard” to the pitcher.  Coaches literally pleading with the kid on the mound to “keep throwing hard”.  I didn’t once hear, “change speeds”, “pitch smart”, although, who knows, maybe that is said in the dugout.  I didn’t hear anyone ask the pitcher if he is tired, fatigued or sore.  This was the finals, so these teams had already played at least 6 games in the last 2 days. There is definitely a macho environment around these games, and you have to think some of these kids don’t want to ever say they’re tired because it may make them look less than tough.

The second thing I noticed was the pitcher for one team I was watching sat out an inning after he was pulled, and then was put in to catch.  This happens all the time during my son’s games as well.  Coaches, parents, players want to win that trophy.  That often means riding your best guys, which could mean pitching and catching for some of the kids.

I went back to my hotel and caught up on this thread.  Since I started it, I feel obliged to follow it. There’s a lot of valuable discussion going on here about overuse injuries.  I remembered that last year we had two of our pitchers unavailable to pitch by the end of the season.  One kid, a PO, was diagnosed with the growth plate injury that you hear about, while the other, pitcher/catcher  had an unknown problem. The reason it was unknown was because the parents wouldn’t talk about it. He was obviously hurt, and as we wound up the year he wasn’t pitching or catching. He had resorted to a side-arm style of throwing the ball in from the outfield. This was U11. The irony about these two kids is they were the only two on the team who took private pitching lessons. It made me wonder about what it takes to become a “pitching coach”? Is there any certification a parent should look for like the way you’d look for a PGA professional if you wanted to take golf lessons?

Finally, I’d like to say how funny I find the whole idea of these kids playing 9, 10, 11 months a year is.  Some of the greatest players of all time had actual jobs in the winter.  Suit salesman, truck driver, cattle rancher etc. and would then use spring training to get back into playing shape. Now we have parents of 11 year olds afraid Jimmie is going to fall behind if he doesn’t hit all winter or pitch in fall league.

Great post, Diamond Dogs!

 

This statement jumped out at me: "One kid, a PO, was diagnosed with the growth plate injury." 

 

That was SO common among pitchers (and more than one catcher) when JP was playing all that youth baseball. Makes me wonder: If a boy is throwing enough to cause damage to a growth plate before he matures, is he more likely to injure his arm later? I don't know the answer, but seriously -- that was COMMON.

 

My good friend's son had that injury at 12 -- and he totally shut him down, and didn't allow him to pitch until HS. I think that was smart.

 

And you are SO RIGHT about how everyone gets caught up in the moment when it comes to youth baseball championships! Heck, we LOVED IT!! Felt like it meant a lot! And in some ways, I suppose it did -- at the time.

 

We had a blast as a family -- traveling all over, camping, fishing, watching our son play the game he loved. And truth be told, most all of the boys on JP's youth teams are doing very well today. LOTS of D1 scholarships.

 

But more than one pitcher has paid a hefty price.

 

So Caco, 2020, and all of you loving parents of young pitchers, all I offer is this:

 

Let your son have fun. This is a great sport, and boys make lifelong friends playing it. Go and win a TON of championships, and bond as a family over baseball!!

 

Just keep in mind always that pitching requires the human body to do things it isn't designed to do -- so be mindful! And if you EVER hear a doctor tell you your son has a 'growth plate injury' shut him down for a LONG LONG time.

 

Then maybe, just maybe, all of here in the HSBBW community will join you in celebrating his post-HS success.

 

Not sure if this is place to post this link to July's Orthopedics Today roundtable/article titled "Epidemic of Youth Sports Injuries". Experts like Drs. Andrews and Romeo. Good info re Little League all the way to MLB. Food for thought re this thread.

 

http://www.healio.com/orthoped...t/orthopedics-today/{9b2e31e6-0a96-4a42-a7ef-f4c0bd427e73}/panel-discusses-epidemic-of-youth-sports-injuries-role-of-prevention-programs

A lot of good info.  Here's a really powerful quote from Dr. Andrews: "When I see new patients, I have them write down their history and elaborate about the awards they have won, the championships, perfect games, showcases, etc. These are all, of course, risk factors relative to injuries in the younger throwers. I have them put all this information on the blackboard including when they started throwing and how many innings they play each year and I will leave the room and let them finish that information. When I go back into their room, they usually have run out of blackboard space and I will look at the parents and the young thrower and say, “Do you all know why this young player is here?” They really don’t know how to answer my question. Then I will point to the blackboard and at that point, the parents for the first time understand why their young baseball player is in the office seeing me for a throwing arm problem."

I love this comment! There are many times I have wanted to start doing the same thing, but unfortunately I don't have a blackboard in our ATR to do just that! But it really makes a great point IMO..

He isnt the only surgeon who feels that way. 

Funny thing is there it is in black and white from a world renown surgeon and you still will have parents that will continue to do the same thing over and over. Play year round sports and never give the kids a rest.

JMO