John Smoltz's HOF speech on specialization

Why is it any more sickening than any other player that can no longer play?  Do you think player 1 would have had the same opportunity without all the work?  Do you really think player 2 had a partial tear because of one short rest?  If so the tear was going to happen at some point.       

Is there a new report.  The last one reported was based off of self reporting.  Again has anyone defined what a "properly thrown" curve means? 

It's not more sickening, Real Green. Sorry it sounded that way. 

 

We all do the best we can. I'm not judging anyone -- parents or players. 

 

I'm just saying to the parents of high-velo youngsters: Learn as much as you can, because he is at higher risk than most -- based on one dad's observations.

 

 

 

 

You are right, partial tears don't happen on short rest. And why is it sickening? Injuries happen.

CaCO3,

Here is what I consider a problem. I have a friend who has a 10 year old who has played more LL travel games this summer than sons 15/16u team.  Its August,  almost time for school to start here and they are off to CA for more baseball. They play fall ball as well.

My friend says he wants to play ball in college someday.  

Do you think he will? 

Did I mention he is a pitcher?

 

All I'm saying is it's unfortunate -- anytime ANY player gets hurt. Poor choice of words.

       
       






I said awhile back on this thread that the only thing we can all agree on is genetics plays a role.  Some guys seem to have untearable UCL's, while others are failing while following the pitch smart rules.  I am a scientist, I need actual data to crunch.  Until the technology is widely available to measure the strain on each persons arm I don't think any of us know anything for sure....we have educated guesses, but much like the people in the 17th century thought that old meat just spontaneously produced the maggots...not ever understanding small fly eggs that they couldn't see we're the cause....we don't know what causes a pitchers arm to fail.  We are waving our hands and pointing at data going see, see.....but as several people have pointed out there is no actual data, only guesses.  Will I be monitoring my kid to make sure he follows the pitch smart rules, yes.  Am I sure that if he follows them to the letter he won't have to have TJ surgery at 16, NO!

Ok. Forget about TJS.
There are many young players these days having shoulder surgery as well.

You asked for what constitutes overuse. Of course a lot depends on genetics. 

So does common sense, which many people lack when it comes to their kids and baseball.

JMO

Funny. Right before I saw this I saw a facebook post from a friend about their kid still playing baseball. They started two weeks before ours started playing and still have at least one more to play in before the summers over. They are then going to roll into fall ball. By the time the seasons over they will probably have played more games then most MLB players. I made the comment to my wife about overuse issues and how this kid always seems to have a strained this or that. Not sure how the family has not yet made the connection. 

I think that was his point as well. My thought is anything in excess may not always be good. Do 10 year olds really have to play so many games?  Especially coming from a warm weather state. Save it for when it really counts, in HS when you have to go out on the recruiting circuit.

Having any injury at anytime in a players career puts him behind the 8 ball.  We played it careful because we wanted him to get through HS ball, college ball and get drafted. All players get hurt at some point, its where and when that could determine your next level.  

Smoltz already had a successful career before he had TJS. So did many other pitchers. Did they play ball in HS, other sports as well. Doesn't matter, he had already arrived.  

There are a lot of players having TJS these days you will never know about because they just never recovered.  

Do you want your son to be included in that statistic? Or would you like him to get to play college or higher, or even HS?

Not sure why this is even debatable.

The debate isn't do you want your son to be hurt or not, the debate is how much is too much?

There is some logic in attending batting practice 52 weeks a year, I find zero logic in working on pitching 52 weeks a year.  While my son may be on a year round team there were about 20 games from August to mid October and 60 games from February to June.  July is a tryout period for new teams and pick up games and Mid October to mid January is shut down period for ALL players to focus on speed, agility, and strengthening. They don't have a single pitcher training during that time.

Some people who drink the Kool-aid spend the shut down time on weekly or twice a week pitching lessons.  Those are the kids I worry about.  The term "year round team" to our neck of the woods simply boils down to don't join another team during that time, not that they play games year round.

It would be interesting to know if there are many, or even any, kids that play competitive baseball for 12 months a year.  Doesn't almost everyone take a couple months off from competitive baseball at some point during the year?

 

Risk and Reward...

 

No risk, play it 100% safe = No Reward

Too much risk, over do it = Jeopardize the Reward

 

All we can do is be as smart as possible.  There is a risk every time a player takes the field or a pitcher takes the mound. You cannot reach your potential without some risk being involved.  Will your priority be 100% health or give it 100%, all you have?  Obviously it needs to be somewhere in between.

 

My biggest problem is (that in between area) is different from one pitcher to the next.  I don't mean the obvious over use or lack of recovery time.  Everyone seems to agree on one thing for sure... Fatigue being the biggest culprit!  But what if one pitcher is capable of reaching 100 pitches before fatigue sets in, yet another pitcher reaches that point in 50 pitches?  We all know this happens, we are talking about pitchers being different in every way.

 

My personal opinion is, it is vitally important that someone, coach or family member, knows what their pitchers limitations are, especially when it involves fatigue.  Then the 50 pitch limit guy can possibly gain on that limit in a somewhat safe manner over time. But throwing him 100 pitches now is likely to create serious injury at some point. But no matter what, there is no way to completely eliminate risk and still reach your potential.  It is possible to be aware of the most dangerous risks. If safety is the only thing that is important to you and your son being a successful pitcher is not important, then... "Don't let your babies grow up to be pitchers"

Guess that would depend on your definition of "competitive." Since there are tournaments in all 12 months out of the year and showcases, I'd say there probably are some who are playing every month of the year. 

At 9U, my son's team played in something like 70-80 games. 

 

He loved it, but he wasn't a pitcher. 

 

If I had it do do over, I don't know.

 

Yes -- this is my point. Thank you.

You can't forget about the money aspect of this -- especially for the tournament organizers and the travel organizations,  In these parts there is a certain facility and a certain organization that runs baseball tournaments practically every week of the year.  They hardly ever go looking for teams to play in those tournaments.   

 

On the other hand, practice space and indoor facilities are quite limited.  There are a few organizations that can survive while not playing in the fall and winter because they have indoor facilities,  So they can keep their teams together and have them work indoors in the fall and early winter without having to play that much.   But a number of these "local" travel teams basically play all year round -- especially the below HS age teams.  Why?  Cause they canCause they make more money by doing so.  Because parents are a bit gullible perhaps.   Because they think by playing all year round their kid is going to have a big competitive edge.  And on and on. It's a bit insane.  I remember being out at a certain facility in the neighborhood for an early January game at 8am when my son played 13U I think it was.   It was COLD.  But we all had the illusion that playing baseball on a cold January morning was somehow good for our kids. 

60 games from February to June for that age group is more than many college programs play.

But you live in an area that is so competitive people think their kids will miss out on something if they don't play a lot of baseball. I get it, its that way here too.

So who is really drinking the KA?

Someone should do a study on how many pitchers from the Atlanta area breakdown before or after college. 

JMO

 

JMO

That was 14 tourneys, over 4.5 months.  Playing about 3 weekends a month.  Each tourney had a 3 game guarantee, so it could have been only 42 games if the kids had always lost their first pool play games, which  they didn't, and they had 10 games their week in Cooperstown.

  So no, I don't think that's too much, nor do I think we are drinking the koolaid.  Please keep in mind, 12u is 6 innings per game....if the mercy rule doesn't come into affect, or the 1:40 minute time constraint.

Its your perogative to justify whatever you want.

Its hard to say sometimes what makes our kids improve - or what makes them fade.  I do know this my son has played an average of more than 60 games a year since age 9.  Every year he has improved more than most kids his age.  Hopefully next year will see more drastic improvement.  I have always been careful About how much he pitches but I definitely feel playing a lot of games has helped.  I have no way of proving that just like no one has any proof of why some kids get hurt and others don't.   So I respect all opinions and just try to do the best I can to keep my son safe.  But I don't think 60 game a is overkill.  JMO.

Curious. What do you allow your son to pitch per game, how many times a week, what other positions and what pitches does he throw? 60 in what amount of time.

       
       
60 games from late april to mid July.   Now fall ball.  Don't like more than 7 innings a week pitching.  Some weekends of course we are off and he does no pitching.  In fall ball there will be minimal pitching as at least around here they usually pitch about everyone one or two innings each.  When all is said and done he will play about 90 games between late april and early October.   He also plays 1B.  In fall ball he may play some 3B and C as they move kids around a lot in fall.  October, november and December we will do little throwing of any kind.  Certainly no pitching.  In January he will throw a little at a.pitching camp.  Then take the rest if january off.  Start throwing in February and march.  Then another couple week break in early april before going full bore.

I just wanted to get an idea. What you do with your player is your business.  Its easier looking in the rear view mirror than looking forward.  Looking back, son didn't play as much as some of yours. I still stand by my word its too much for that age.  Only time will tell if that is a good choice for him.  Especially for pitchers. Some people I know who have pitchers but still think playing more is good, don't have them pitch at all in fall.  What your player does at 12/13 could impact him negatively at 17/18.  I know you don't see it that way and I know you don't understand.  And he doesn't need to play in a PG event until he reaches HS and has played at least one year. But if that's what floats your boat, fine. More is not always better when bodies are growing and changing.

 

My son was lucky, he remained healthy until he entered pro ball. From there it was downhill.  Sometimes I wish he had not began pitching at 9. If I knew then what I know now, he would not pitch until high school.  I wish I had someone who advised me to do so.

 

Ever wonder why ML pitchers don't let their young pitchers pitch?

 

 

 

First I assure you I.do understand.  And I also understand that we really can't put our finger on what it takes to remain healthy.  That being said we do everything we can to safeguard his arm.  This year he.took the approach that he would cruise when he could and get outs less stressfully.  Less strikeouts but less stress also.  I am entertaining not letting him pitch in fall ball.  This will be his first fall ball experience since he was 10.  He has.the.chance.to compete against 15 and 16 year olds and I just thought it might be a good experience for him.  But yes I do worry.  But you can't put them in bubble wrap either.  And the former big leaguers I know do in fact let their kids pitch.  But no doubt these are difficult decisions.  What I really hate are these january camps.  He loves going to his dream school for a pitchers camp every january.  So I take him.  But it does disturb that down period.  I understand that colleges are going full tilt by late january early feb. So this is when they can do these things.  Thing is though the odds of him ever going to that dream school are remote at best.  But at the same time I believe that if he pursues his dream vigorously even if he doesn't make it he will be better than if I tell him 'give that up its just a dream'.  Difficult decisions no doubt.  One thing I definitely feel though is you cant wait around for your freshman or sophomore year to get started.  Unless of course you are naturally supremely gifted.  So I continue to research and respect all opinions because this arm injury thing is a story still in progress.  Hopefully someday soon we will have some definitive answers.

Not sure what definite answers you want. Can't even begin to tell you how many people here on this website have had pitchers with injuries. They just don't mention it because its personal info.  But as someone said to me recently, you guys have to figure this out yourself.

Having your son throw "softer" doesn't prevent injury. 

FWI son pitched ONE season in Jan, that was for recruiting. If you hate the camp, don't send him. Best programs do fall/summer camps. The  others do it to make money. 

 

This is all a very personal decision. But usually the more enthusiastic dads who are living through their sons dreams seem to disappear. I am pretty sure the kids get hurt and that's it. 

 

No one says you have to stop playing, but 90 games for 13 year olds, just doesn't work for me.  Save those bullets for when he really needs it.

 

You left out what your son throws. 

JMO

At what point does a parent become a parent and tell a kid NO???

 

I use this analogy a lot when it comes to sport specialization. If a kid really likes math and is good at math, do we let the kid only study math starting at age 9? HELL no. So why are athletics different??? 

Just curious, are there a lot of 9 year old kids specializing in one sport?  I understand it is more common among high school age kids, just didn't realize specialization was that common among 9 year olds or even those under 14.

 

Once again, among the three major sports (football, basketball, baseball) I think basketball has the most year around specialization.  In fact, summer basketball is sometimes made mandatory by some high school coaches.  It's also prime time for college recruiting.

PG, it's either this thread or the same topic on another website where there are parents talking about how their kid is playing baseball only at the age of 9-10 years old. It's DUMB. And a kid who "since the age of 9 averages 90 games per calendar year" is DUMB.

 

Baseball isn't the only culprit. Soccer is like that, basketball is like that, volleyball is like that, gymnastics is like that. They're almost all like that. Really the closest thing you see to a two-sport athlete today is a football player who runs track. That's really about it. 

Ok just to clarify - again.  My son plays baseball AND basketball.  He actually juggles AAU ball with baseball in the summer and plays traditional basketball season as well.  So he also plays 60+ basketball games a year.  Is that irresponsible too?  When he was 9 he played football basketball baseball and also swimming.  He dropped swimming when we read that competitive swimming and pitching is an unhealthy combination.  He dropped football.  We don't want to get into that again.  Now he is down to 2 sports as he enters 8th grade.  He is getting very close to high school and he has made his choices.  Who said anything about playing 90 games a year since age 9?  I guess my parents never started being parents cause we were playing something either organized or unorganized 365 days a year.  They are kids with plenty of energy.  My son is well within the pitching guidelines.  If a kid chooses to play baseball only or play 200 games a year Why is that a big deal?  Forget pitching for.the moment.  Just playing cause the kid loves it.  You think down in mobile alabama willie mays and hank aaron didn't carve out some extra baseball time due to the warm climate?

You did say 90 games. That's a lot, plus he does overlap sports. Its not always about throwing, there are plenty of young bodies that get overworked who are not pitchers.

 

FWIW, ours played other sports but never at the same time. And never two teams at the same time. Did he love the game, yup, he was a field rat, with limitations. People for some reason think that because some of us don't or didn't have our kids play as much as them, they didn't love it as much as theirs.  I get that.  

 

Don't be upset, we are just trying to help you, as I said its much easier to look in the rear view mirror. 

 

Those pitchers that let their sons pitch, are they current pitchers or ones that played for a long period of time or short?

 

When people talk about what about the guys who pitched tons of innings, one of sons pcoaches in milb was Dennis Martinez (2 seasons). Dennis is a recovering alcoholic. He told the boys to get through a game he popped pills and then drank to go to sleep. His son is a pitcher, he didnt begin to pitch until later just before HS, and his dad made him go to college.  These guys just don't want their teens having shoulder or TJS. 

 

I agree with bulldog, when does a parent learn to say no. I understand we had to do it. With all we didnt do, he had issues. If you saw my son you would understand, perfect pitchers frame, excellent mechanics.  Unfortunetly both of his issues were biological in nature.  He made it through college, he made it through the draft, he made it to the 40 man roster.  He never made it to the ML field, he took it well, but I know how much it bothered him. 

 

But when all was said and done, we could look at ourselves in the mirror and know that, even back then, we did all we could do protect him, that was reasonable in nature. 

 

You don't have to know exactly what it is that makes one player break down and the other doesn't. But that doesn't mean that common sense does not have to prevail.

 

As I posted once my daughters boyfriend had his young son play two very physical sports at the same time. Plus wrestling.  This began at 8. We talked about whether it was healthy or not, to him it was, playing multiple sports would make him a better athlete. Until he was diagnosed with OSD in the knee. He was really devastated that he didn't use common sense and this is a REALLY REALLY smart guy, but IMO didn't know how to say no.

 

Just to be clear, mine did not play baseball in the summer until he reached HS. 

 

JMO for some serious advice. Dont be mad, if you want you can send a pm. 

 

The 90 games was in reference to this season only.  Again he is well within the amsi guidelines.  I DO take every precaution to keep him healthy.   What am I supposed to say no to?  No you can't play AAU basketball?  No you can't play fall ball?  So the amsi puts out these guidelines and even following those isn't enough?  Do we not see at some point it is paranoia?

And I want to quickly add...  we are wrong if we specialize.  We are also wrong if we don't specialize but overlap sports.  As much ad we.may want to we can not bring back the 1950's.  Its a different world.  Other than the naturally gifted of course...  you just can't play a 20 game rec ball schedule anymore and compete.  Thats what the kids who feed our school do.  It ain't working.  The state of wisconsin barely produced any college ballplayers not very long ago.  Now.due.to a few good organizations popping up (one of which my son plays for) there are more college bound players than ever.  Instead of always looking at the negatives of travel ball or showcasing etc.  Lets look at the positives.  Kids do develop this way.  That is a fact.

And while I am at it (on a roll why stop?) When I first got.on this site I said my kid was a borderline kid.  Of.course I expect he could play D3..  who couldn't really?  But when it comes to D1 and certainly beyond there is absolutely nothing to indicate he is a slam dunk for that.  Maybe this is as good as its gonna get for him.  Why not let him enjoy it?

I'm glad I couldn't afford travel ball until my son hit age 12.  From age 7-11 he played 20 games a year.

Its pretty hard to tell what direction a player will go at that age. He could turn out to be one fine young D1 stud.  Right? I had no clue if son would play ball as many years as he did.  

Does ASMI guidelines (they only are guidelines) take into consideration other youth sports played both at the same time? it may not be the right recipe for everyone.

Do you not think that youth sports have become over the top. My sons surgeon sees them at 9 with serious overuse injuries.  Too many overuse injuries.  

 

We are in a discussion, no one is condemning anyone, you are a good webster here, but this is a discussion and whoever reads can take away what they want from it. 

 

What is good for your son may not be good for someone elses.  

Do you follow the guideline of no radar gun?

Boy 2020, I am not sure your comments on Wisconsin are accurate.  For years, that conference has been one of the  strongest in all of D3 baseball-yes, I know, the one where anyone could play.  If you think that, you must know D3 at the bottom, not the top.

This guy was a 2nd round pick out of Stevens Point:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Zimmermann

 

The State of Wisconsin produces many high quality college players. They just don't leave the State and play D1, but many  certainly could. I would strongly support broadening horizons on college baseball.  To provide a current illustration, one of the top 10-15 Summer Wood Bat League teams in being led in many offensive categories and games played by a high quality D3 outfielder. Every other player on that team is from a D1 program most would consider top 25-50. Why not grab your son at the end of next May and head to Appleton, Wisc and watch some D3 college CWS baseball. It might be good for both of you.

I have a pocket radar you know that.  But I actually use it very sparingly and often to see when he has lost velocity and maybe needs to come out.  One thing a lot.of people agree on is pitching fatigued is a big issue.  Look like I said before I honor all opinions.  There is just so much conflicting research and so little known still at this point.  Back to the original point I just don't think specialization is inherently bad or causes injury in and of itself.  The key is that we all do the best we can.  Again my son does NOT specialize but I support the rights of those that do.

The reflex answer to that question is, "the 94% of high school varsity players who do not play college baseball." But I acknowledge that some of those players could play, but choose not to.

 

The more complete answer is that, yes, there are some D3 programs where just about anyone could make the team.  Of course, to do so, you first have to get into a real hard school (e.g., Cal Tech) or be willing to go to a school in the middle of nowhere (e.g., Maine-Presque Isle) or feel comfortable at a small school with a heavy religious emphasis.

 

However, if you're talking about baseball at a reasonably competitive D3, the answer to "who couldn't really?" quickly gets back a lot closer to that 94% of high school varsity baseball players. And if you're talking about the D3's that contend for the postseason, the answer is an even higher percentage of high school players who really couldn't.

Sully took a player from WI to pitch at Clemson, Jason Berken.

He played football as well. Had to delay his pro career due to TJS in college. 

 

I heard that he runs some great camp programs up that way.

http://fox11online.com/news/ma...ifference-in-de-pere

       
       
No doubt there is a big disparity between top level D3's and bottom level.  But overall there were 11 drafted this year and 15 last year.  Not a track record that screams 'lots of great players'.  Some really good players no doubt.  But most.of.those kIds who stayed in state did so because they couldn't/didn't get recruited at the D1 level.  Yes there are exceptions but that is the rule.  Now more and more wisconsin kids are going D1.  And there are plenty left for.the other levels too.  Point is its getting better.  And playing more baseball has been part of that.  And TPM obviously I hope my son achieves his dreams and does become a big time D1 player.  He has just enough ability and a lot.of size where at least it is a possibility.  But what I don't want to do is put him in that bubble wrap hoping for that...  then it doesn't happen and he never gets to play the amount of baseball he would have liked.  Believe me I do listen to everyone when it comes to avoiding injury.  Nobody wants that.  We just do the best we can.

       
       
well said.  Agree with every word.

Oh well??

2020, check the number of players drafted or selected as free agents from Trinity University in the last 3-4 years and compare it with D1 programs ranked 125-300, if that is the measure of "great players" and "great baseball."

I think the obvious answer is you want your son to be a top D1 player.  I hope that happens for him.