Lets Talk Pitching - Ask/Discussion about pitching from professional instructor

This was your first post.

This was your second post.

You referred to some of us as the stubborn majority.

That right there gave me a challenge to challenge.

 

In a discussion with son who plays baseball, the scenario is much different for a starter vs reliever. I understand that most HS players train as starters, but let me ask you a question and here is your challenge, how do YOU train pitchers, what plan do you lay out for them to do each day? Long distance running, sprints, poles, swim, weight training, agility excercises, yoga, etc (ask me if you don't understand what etc means.

 

Nolan Ryan demonstrated that you can have a long pitching career by having a consistent work out regimen.   In Nolan Ryan's Pitching Bible he talks about cardio part of his training and how it helped his stamina. 

 

I added 4 pages from his book where he mentions running, for what it's worth. 

 

 

Where did anyone say one should not run.  The issue is that pitching is not aerobic but anerobic and should incorporate training with that in mind.
BTW here is a story of two pitchers. One ran all the time one never did. Guess which guy went the distance almost every outing?
Every person is different. Just because it worked for one guy doesnt mean it will for the next.

I know what my first post was, I am new to the neighborhood and did jot know all of the website rules but once I found out, I will never make that mistake again Sir. TPM. With neighbors like you who would needs an enemy, do u always have to be right?

I've kind of stayed out of this latest round...part of the reason is because for some reason, anytime folks have differing experiences / opinions, it tends to get "chippy" in here, which I hope does not keep others from offering their valued opinions.

 

No doubt there are different ways to skin the cat, and not all sizes fit all.. In fact there are too many "gurus" out there that have put together a "one size fits all" program, and IMO especially for pitchers, there are too many robots out there trying to mimic certain "positions" that have been "scientifically" claimed to be the "proper" mechanics.  I agree there are to some degree, a certain amount of physical training, and mechanical efficiencies that are pretty much given, however I have seen too many "ex college / ex professional" pitchers that really know very little about the complex sequence of events that occur in pitching.  I have also seen many robotic / uncoordinated pitchers on the mound, where their " instructors" have coached the athleticism right out of them.

 

Full disclosure:  my bio on this site references myself as a pitching coach.  I am, however in college I was a position player.  What makes me think I can coach pitching, without a resume of ever stepping foot on the rubber in a high level baseball game?  I would venture a good guess, that I have spent more time, and much more money than most folks that ever read this site, to learn.  I have trained / learned in person with the the best in the business, folks that are referenced on this site by many:  Cressey, Nyman, Boddy, Mills, Wolforth, Wheeler,House... all of which I have the good fortune to have be introduced to, and spent time and resources to travel and learn. 

 

Having had the ability to spend time with these folks, I would not go as far as to say that I agree 100% with all they teach, in fact with some of it, I do not.  All this to say, that while none of us are arguing that the first edition of Windows is as good as the latest, we also know that technology / science as it relates to developing high level pitchers has also advanced, and to ignore that is cheating the pitchers that are being instructed.  Are there better ways of getting cardio than hitting the pavement, YES.  Are some constants the same as they were many years ago, YES.  Does one have to have pitched at a high level to understand, and teach it...NO.  There are some folks out there that are collecting $ from lessons that claim elite status as instructors, that are stealing from their clients....all behind the claim that they pitched in college, etc.....I think PG Staff has posted several times that some of the biggest thieves out there are the numerous claimed "Pitching Instructors"....it is really shameful. 

 

I think discussions like this are beneficial, although unless someone asks  specific questions, the more general ones tend to get off track, and lead to many disagreements.  Hopefully folks can weed through the personality conflicts, and take the differing advice, and form their own opinions.

DeePee,

 

Not to infringe on your discussion(s) with TPM, but He is a She.

well said again, back foot slider, you make a lot of valid points. I thought I was getting into a discussion as well but I felt I got ambushed because I made the cardinal mistake of solicting myself. However I have heard some very educated remarks from this forum. At the end of the day, the road to the big leagues or even playing at a D1 college is very competitive

Well my apologies again, I just feel TPM attacks all that seem to opposE but this is a discussion site

 

Back Foot Slider ,
Great post. Thank you.

Deepee,
You came here soliciting for biz and your resume included being a former pitcher.  I dont think that qualifies anyone for the job.  You completely ignored opinions of others.  FWIW from what I have learned no way would I pay anyone a dime who tells son the secret to longer outings is running.
No way even if I am not a sir!

And I am definetly stubborn!
By the way awaiting on your training for pitchers.
Just want to know if I would pay someone what I would expect?

I never claimed running will make you last longer, I said running should be apart of program whether it is treadmill or outside and I stand by it, you should and will do some running as a Professinal or collegiate player, so why not learn it and love it now.  

Running...as in...long distance?

I am starting to see why texting and discussion pages like this can become extinct. People seem to misinterpret your intentions. For all I have offended, my apologies, I will stick with race to face speaking. I am out of my element with this group. Again my apologies

No not long distance, sprints, dashes, 2 miles is good, if that is  considered long then yes. As a starter, a couple of miles should be good

Why would you bow out? I asked a question. What type of running program do you suggest for pitchers? 
BTW did you read where long distance running eventually  got to Ryan's knees and back?

I dont know where you ever thought no one said not to run. All pitchers run poles.
But the difference is running should not be the primary source for cardio.  I think that was the inpression that I got from your discussion.

       
       


To me (and I don't know where it comes from but I have a theory) this is where the anti running thing comes from. Pitching like any other single contraction activity is not anaerobic. It would only be anaerobic if you sprinted to the mound and then threw. Just like the start of a sprint is not anaerobic. It doesn't become anaerobic until your body is producing energy faster than you can take in oxygen. If the pitchers hands are on his knees trying to catch his breath them yes but as long as he has oxygen it's not anaerobic.

My theory as to where it comes from. It's comes from an illogical assuption. Pitching is explosive. In an explosive movement we use fast twitch muscles. Fast twitch muscles produce ATP anaerobicly. Then the assuption if it's explosive it's anaerobic. No. All muscle fibers use ATP and they don't know nor care how that ATP was formed. Fast twitch muscles will use ATP produced from slow twitch muscles. The rate at which your body produces the ATP has nothing to do with the contraction itself.

So why do we train explosively to increase explosion. Well it's said that the speed our muscle contracts is supposedly determined when forming. So basically your born with muscle contraction already at top speed. However the sequencing of the muscle contraction can theoretically be altered and made more efficient and therefore faster. We do that by doing explosive contractions. For the same reason your muscles will get stronger when put under stress. Your contraction sequence will get better under stress. Well in theory anyway.

Away point is. Using fast twitch muscle fibers does not make an activity anaerobic. Using the energy produced from fast twitch fibers does.

Oh and if you ask then why does a pitcher who's aerobicly fit fatigue. I don't know but theorize it's the same reason a pitcher who's anaerobicly fit does. Right now I would make the assuption it's from a number of things all added together with muscle damage being a primary culprit.

I train football players mostly and they don't deal with single contraction activities. They are mostly rapid multi-contraction. So it's different theory's. I have started studying on it quite a bit thought since the start of this discussion.

Regardless of a few of the little arguments in this thread I am very thankful for it. It has sparked my intrest in studying something different and made me re think the way I look at some things. To me that's about the best outcome one can have on a discussion board.

The one thing that disturbs me is the lack of discussion about core strength which is very valuable for strength not only pitchers but for all athletes even runners.  My impression is that this is very important when organizations look to draft players. How well will a pitcher hold up for the season may be determined by considering core strength not how many miles the pitcher runs.

My interpretation bt deepee was that to be a better pitcher one must go back to the lost art of running.

Just sayin.....

Deepee you have a dialoge

Wow.

 

I'm not even through the first page of responses and I have to get involved.

 

Let me first say, I am very wary of pitching instructors, especially those selling something.  Especially an increase in velocity.  It is my opinion that other than a year round schedule, it is no accident that every kid can hop on the internet and get 5 different guys pushing some kind of system to increase their velocity and suddenly 10 years ago, Tommy John surgery and injuries start to skyrocket.

 

@JH,  You can make a scientific study say anything you like.  I am also the cross country coach for our high school, running in general helps overall conditioning so I 100% completely disagree.  This does not however mean that my pitchers run 3 miles a day at practice.  Pitching is using fast twitch muscles, running doesn't but does help keep you in shape.  Running in general strengthens your core, which is extremely important for pitcher.   We have several cross country runners who were by far our best pitchers and a couple of years ago maybe  the top pitcher in the district was a runner.

 

You also mentioned ice being bad.  I've read that study with my school's very good trainer and she laughed.

 

Weighted baseballs are useless.  We had a nearby coach, go through one of the programs with weighted balls and it caused problems and only half of his kids gained any velocity.  The other half had injury issues.

This comment was made I believe by JH that his son trained with the track team sprinters.   Ask that coach how many races he runs in a meet.  Maybe the 100, 200 and 4x100.  If his runner was running 20 competitive 100 sprints with a short amount of time between each one.  I guarantee you, he would have his runners run at least some distance.

 

So considering this is about pitching.  Should I only have my pitcher throw, 30 pitches in the bullpen as hard as he can with rest in between since pitching is explosive.

So, you can make a scientific study say anything you like? Not really. You, instead would just take the word of your schools "very good trainer" as the definitive word on icing and ONE coach's experience with weighted balls in ONE program as the definitve answer on weighted balls? I think I'll ignore your trainer and go with the science and I'll ignore your one weighted ball study and go with both my experience and the experience of several other credible coaches who have had fantastic velocity increases with weighted balls. As to long distance running, I'll likewise go with those pesky scientific studies. 

If half the kids gained velocity from weighted ball program I would say that constitutes a tremendous success.

That's fine. When 8 kids work with weighted balls and only 4 show any improvement in velocity with the average increase is 3mph and the one kid who improves 5mph is a second year sophomore pitcher who likely gained more growing and maturing. It is not worth the 3 players who gained nothing because they started having injury issues in a program that rarely has injuries.

 

Believe what you wish, it makes no difference to me.   There is a problem when you start taking a scientific study as the absolute truth and discarding tried and true coaching methods that have achieved pitchers who throw hard with sound repeatable safe mechanics.  Its also another way to justify how good your kid should be when he steps out on the field and is robotic and unathletic because he has been over coached and rarely gets on the field because he is not effective.  You know this parent. The one that says: coach I don't understand why johnny isn't pitching in more games, we spent the entire summer and fall with thus pitching instructor who says scientifically his mechanics are perfect.  To which my response was maybe he needs to find some new science because in 4 innings total work he has walked 4 batters, hit two and given up 4 hits plus making a throwing error on a bunt.

@ roothog

 

I'll ignore the 5% of trainers that are trying to make a name for themselves and listen to the other 95%

I too will give the weighted ball training  

 

 

and long distance running for pitchers/baseball players a 

 

 

 

After finally getting to read every post on this subject I think stats4gnats expresses the truth of the matter, everyone is different and is effected by training different ways. I think age is also an issue in this discussion. As for my pitchers those who have been runner tend to focus more on explosive activities while those who are not tend to work more on getting in shape and doing some distance running.

 

You guys who love these pitching gurus need to watch a little Pedro Martinez on mlb now in the last 2 nights has done a wonderful job explaining good mechanics, and compared Matt Harvey and Stephen Strasburg tonight, excellent job showing strasburgs problems.

@ several posters

 

So icing is bad but setting in an ice bath or taking a cold shower to help sooth micro tears is good. Hypocrite.

 

Now I do have a pitching question if anyone is left to answer.

 

My pitchers timing has disappeared, I noticed we were having some issues in a drll holding their follow through. After some video I've noticed that not only are they rotating their hips and shoulders at the same something I call stepping out but at foot plant our arms are at all kinds of different positions and some have started their hip turn earlier. I've already tried everything I know so I was wondering if there were any drills you suggest.  

I think many people have velocity gains from various methods up to around 85 mph.  Below this speed, lots of kids may have had poor/no training, no/little conditioning, need muscle mass, etc. and can make rapid gains.

 

When a method starts starts getting consistent/repeatable speeds beyond 85 or so for many pitchers, that's when it gets interesting.

 

BTW, today I don't think icing or ice baths are good for ligaments. I could be wrong.  My kid doesn't routinely ice and has never had any elbow troubles, even though he throws lots of innings/pitches.  Time will tell.

Sull, well,  if you're suggesting that all of your pitchers should be in the same "mechanical position" and same "arm slot" at foot plant, rotation and follow through, I find that to be very cookie cutterish type teaching.  

 

Maybe if you explained a little more.  Have they lost velocity, accuracy or both?  Each pitcher is unique, just like each hitter, no two are going to be thesame

       
       
I am confused.  On the one hand it seems that you want all your pitchers to have the same mechanics and on the other you don't want them to be the same...  as for hips opening early hips should open before shoulders.  Agree with lefthooked probably not enough information here.  As for weighted balls this is one I continue to follow.  Haven't made up my mind yet.  But I know for sure when I do it will be because of science and research not long used and often incorrect coaching methods.  And certainly not because of what some former pro ballplayer says as my experience with most of those is they don't work very hard to understand the mechanics of the game.  That is MY experience.  Not saying all former pro instructors are that way.

  sul - "My pitchers timing has disappeared, I noticed we were having some issues in a drill holding their follow through. After some video I've noticed that not only are they rotating their hips and shoulders at the same something I call stepping out but at foot plant our arms are at all kinds of different positions and some have started their hip turn earlier. I've already tried everything I know so I was wondering if there were any drills you suggest."

 

Not sure I understand completely what the issues are, however one thing that always stands out to me with regards to "drills".  The pitching delivery is several body movement patterns sequenced into ball release.  Many drills do not translate due to the movement pattern that happens before or after the drill.  In other words perfecting "one" movement pattern does not always translate into the pitching sequences, if what is happening before or after does not support it.

 

Many times when the hips and the shoulders rotate at the same time (zero hip/shoulder separation) is due to the front leg / hip being dominant.  Pitching is VERY similar to hitting....the front side is to stabilize, while the back hip rotates going into foot plant.  If the front hip opens, then everything goes with it.  Arm action is also directly related to the action or inaction of the hips.  Fix the hips, and you likely fix the arm action.  In pitching & hitting you want the rotation more similar to a swinging hinged gate, rather than a revolving door.

 

Lastly, you mentioned being able to hold their follow through.  Unless they are unable to brace the front leg into ball release, I would not coach the follow through...it is very unique to each individual, and a non-teach.

http://www.topvelocity.net/top...-pitchers/#more-8745

 

Interesting pictures showing recommended pitching technique to reduce injury. 

Yes. 

 

tpm is not a sir.

 

Sent you a dialogue

Some good stuff here, but also some old school stuff that has no scientific merit and a headscratcher or two:

 

"Stick to Strict Pitch Counts if You Throw Over 85mph Consistently" - little confused as to the qualifier.

 

"Avoid Throwing Many Breaking Pitches. Work to Throw Around 80-90% Fastballs and Change-Ups." - It's a continuing argument, I guess, but I think I've made my position clear on this one more than once.

 

"Avoid Using Anti-Inflammatory Drugs. Icing is Better Than these Drugs. Do not Ice More than 12 Minutes On. - I used to use ibuprofin instead of ice, but after being nudged to do some research from someone on here, I came to the conclusion that this statement is correct. However, I also now believe doing nothing is better than icing. Icing is great for bruises and swelling but bad for recovery. I bought a MarcPro a few months ago and my son now uses that for post-pitching and the results have been nothing short of remarkable. No soreness and quick muscle recovery.

 

I also noted that a couple of the advised mechanics are, indeed, better mechanics for velocity, but I don't beliebe I've ever seen any indication that they have any relation to UCL health.

Hips open at foot plant=good , Shoulders open to a varying degree at

foot plant = bad .    Old News.     So after a couple of innings their arms are done because they are only using their arms.

 

Just looking for some drills that might help.  I'm not going to argue with anyone over drills.

 

This has not been a problem in the past and has crept in somewhere since last hs baseball season. 

 

I very much feel there are several mechanical issues that are  healthy and "correct" (I really hate using that word).  Other than that I try to encourage "natural" movements and work anything we see that could cause physical issues.  Other than that we have a good degree of differences among our guys.

 

No real drop in velocity, until after a couple of innings.

 

 

 

 

Hip turn early or hip turn late - I know there is a lot of school of thought on the issue - I think is inconsequential as long as upper trunk rotation (internal arm rotation) is properly sequenced. As long as the hips are open at footstrike (regardless of how they got open) it's time to look at the shoulders. They should not begin rotation until footstrike. This can be hard with younger pitchers and you get what you describe - arms going all over the place. My suggestion is that once you get the hips open at footstrike, experiment with mechanics that hold the shoulders and arm back until the proper time. I've had success with delaying handbreak and wrapping the throwing arm down and behind the butt.

Icing - I'm not hypocritical. I don't believe ice baths have any use either. Slowing blood circulation can not possibly help in the recovery of damaged ligaments and tissue. For purposes of decreasing swelling, ice is proper. However, slight swelling associated with muscle use (say after working out or after pitching) isn't a problem that needs to be dealt with. Inflammation is our body's natural way of increasing blood flow and a major part of the recovery process. However, for something like an actual strain or sprain (actual injury vs. soreness) where relieving the swelling is more important than muscle recovery, by all means use ice.

Anybody who would use the word hypocrite to describe anywone's position on icing is either trying to start a flame war or doesn't know the meaning of the word.

@roothog66

 

Thanks.  I try not to delay handbreak much as I feel many pitchers break too late as it is but I think that is something I'm going to have to do at this point.  I'm also hoping as we have some more time outside and in the bullpen things will improve with more pitching.  Saying our weather has been poor would be optimistic we weren't even on a field for the 1st two weeks of practice, and have had 4 games postponed because of rain and many fewer bullpens than usual.

 

I'm not sure I was directly criticizing you for the ice comments; sometimes posts show up next, and that wasn't necessarily the post that was being responded to.  The intent of my comment was for a couple of people, one of which the way I was reading it was saying icing is bad and basically criticized my trainer, and suggested ice has no use and then comments how his son recovers by taking freezing cold showers.

 

Also, I just want to go back and touch on my opinion of running for pitchers since I think we have identified what we are talking about for distance running.  I to would not be in favor of running any baseball players to what some have identified as 3+ or even 5-20 miles.  I don't need a scientific study to tell me that is a waste of time and likely leads to the build up of more lactic acid.

 

Which brings me to another point, I've been reading all these posts  on lactic acid build up in pitchers and sort of have to point out.  Lactic acid is created when muscles are stressed usually for a long amount of time and cannot get the amount of oxygen needed.  Distance runners actually work on raising their lactic threshold that so that the body can more efficiently remove the lactic acid from the system.  So I would like to see actual numbers of the amount of lactic acid produced by baseball players during pitching.  With the rest between the limited activity my "guess" would be that there would be limited production. So technically on the question of running flushing out the lactic acid, I agree it is not needed.

 

 However if lactic acid did build up to a middle distance running program between 1000-1600m at certain intensities could be useful for processing the lactic acid.

 

 

Pitchers can achieve the same results (whatever that may be) after a long outing by using a stationary bike.  Running is kind of tough on the knees. 

 

Some pitchers prefer ice, some don't, anything one does is usually  a matter of preference.

 

 

I'll agree that LD running can help overall conditioning and doesn't hurt anything as long as you aren't using it in place of something that helps more - like sprints. Very good point that the same aerobic conditioning can be attained through other methods that are less stressful on the joints.

 

Here's my ultimate opinion on icing. It doesn't help recovery, but probably only retards it a little bit. So, mainly, I see it as a physical waste of time. However, I can buy into the argument that you make which I read as being basically, if it's a personal choice, any recovery loss from icing is probably at the very least compensated for by the magic of confidence in the process. In other words - to each his own or "whatever floats your boat."

Actually, there have been several studies proving that lactic acid build up is pretty much a myth. Any build up is long gone by the end of a pitching performance. This, from Eric Cressey's site:

"

The current practice utilized for conditioning is for pitchers is to go for a long run the day after a game to “flush” the sore arm of lactic acid, or minimize muscle soreness to recover faster for the next game.  These theories are not supported by the current literature and the physiology of the sport.

In the current research study examining the physiology of pitching, Potteiger et al. (1992) found no significant difference between pre-pitching and post-pitching blood lactate levels of six college baseball players after throwing a 7-inning simulated game. Even though during an inning there is a slight lactate production of 5.3-5.8 mM, (which is not high, considering resting lactate is 1.0mM), it does not cause a buildup of lactic acid in the arm of a pitcher after a game. As a comparative example, a high lactate response would occur from squatting for multiple reps at about 70% 1RM; this might produce a lactate level of about 8-10mM (Reynolds et al., 1997).  Furthermore, jogging to flush the arm of lactic acid after a start is unnecessary and not supported by the literature, especially since we learned all the way back in 2004 that lactate was not the cause of muscular fatigue ; even the New York Times reported on this in 2007! A lot of coaches simply haven’t caught wind yet – in spite of the fact that exercise physiology textbooks have been rewritten to include this new information."

I guess we can agree on this.

Been reading and following this for awhile. 

 

I feel like there is a danger in assuming we can 100% blend science and sports. I've seen many posters with possibly no scientific background quoting scientific studies some of which have little to do with baseball.  If science were perfect we would never have to play the game.

 

So I want to address a few things from my experience.

 

Lactic Acid.does not build up in any major way in a pitchers arm. Thus a run after pitching is not needed to flush it out.  Having said that I normally ran about two miles the day after a start before practice to warm my entire body up.  I don't necessarily like promoting a supplement but potassium before you pitch or do any significant exercise a will lessen the stiffness of any workout.

 

Ice:  Personally I always iced after the game however it was normally 10 on 20 off twice throughout college.  I find this a coaching and personal  choice. We have two pitchers who do not everyone else does. Our pitchers rarely throw more than 1 game a week as starters and usually come back as a reliever which is one of our attempts to protect arms.  Cooling the arm after a game seems to be important for recovery.  The overwhelming majority of trainers and orthopedics I have had contact with do not consider it a valid study, feeling tests need to be larger in scope when it come to basic recovery.

 

Please research any instructors and approach with caution anyone claiming to increase velocity.  Some instructors claim big successes when they should not.  Example: one instructor I know of claims 2 students progressing 9 and 10 miles an hour from the end of their freshmen year to the start of the season the next year because of his revolutionary theories. He fails to mention both kids grew 3 inches and an average of 15 pds over that period.  If your son is still physically developing please make sure instructor is focusing on good mechanics not throwing harder, especially preteens and middle schoolers.

 

Someone asked what a coach had his pitchers do.

We have a pitcher who is throwing in d2 and his general program outline from last year was:

 

2 weeks after end of season,.no activity.

Middle of June to end of July played on a travel ball team. Pitched one game a tournament usually on weekend.  Monday and Thursday. 3 mile run, light weights and core, throwing program.  Tuesday and Friday. Throwing program flat ground mechanics depending on travel schedule..  Wednesday.  Bullpen  60+ pitches minimum  +  spartan workout + pyramid sprint workout. If he didn't have a game on the weekend we would rework for two bps.

 

August:  throwing program with light weight including bands  lots of cross training. Basketball. Soccer.  Cardio on machines etc.

 

From September through October  we play in a fall ball league.  Workout similar to July except 2 bullpens not long.

 

November. December January: No throwing plus he played basketball.

February.   Throwing program 2 days, 1 day bullpen starting out around 30 pitches increasing each week until practice starts.

March.  In general our pitchers are broken up almost like college starters which is possible because of the excellent schedule our head coach puts together. So normally we have someone covering monday\tuesday,  one Wednesday at bursary. And he was Friday starter. If by chance we needed to change he took on our toughest opponents. Generally he was on throwing program every day with bullpens 2x a week with some varied running and conditioning mainly legs and core.  Day after start was a short throwing program day before short bp. His long bp was on Monday. Long bullpen was never more than 90 pitches.

 

Topped out at 84 mph, 9-1 record w\ 3 saves.  1.88 era, 11k/9 

 

No arm issues and he did ice after every start.

 

 

Cheesy you are right I am sure a lot of people commenting are not scientists.   I am not.  Sooner or later you just have to pick someone to believe in.  Personally I chose Cressey.  But I am always open minded if something seems to make sense.  But you can not say that if it were a perfect science we would have it all figured out cause baseball coaches tend to be very close minded and stubborn.  Even when science hits them in the face many coaches turn their back on it citing what good ole coach so in so once said.  So do I know for sure if running distance is good or bad?  Not really.  Do I know for sure if icing is good or bad?  Not really.  But the important thing is we do our research and make as informed an opinion as possible.

P.S. I would not be satisfied with any workout regiment that topped my pitcher out at 84.

The biggest problem IMO with any of this stuff is people generally equate a theory with scientific fact. The problem with health and fitness is very very very few theories have been proven or even disproven. Most studies simply lean the researcher toward or away from believing in a particular theory.

I got my BS in kenisiology in the early 90's. My masters in exercise science in the 00's. And have just started working toward a doctorate. Being that spread out I've had a unique viewing of just how much the "science" changes. Literally what we do one decade is the worst thing we can do the next. Problem is its a new theory not a disproval of the previous theory.

People ask me all the time about things like icing. My answer I don't know and neither does anyone else. Some have opinions and are more than happy to proclaim that opinion as fact but they don't really know either.

Icing a pitchers arm is the perfect example. Yes icing can theoretically slow down recovery by constricting blood vessels and limiting recovery needed nutrients. But how many pitchers pitch that mornig and then need to recover to pitch that night? With a day's rest it won't matter either way. But some take "slow down recovery" meaning 6 hours instead of 5 hours and change it to ruin your arm. It's the way propaganda works. It's called marketing and there are multiple billions of reasons to market the fitness industry.

When those with PhD's are still disagreeing on a subject. That subject is no where near being conclusive. Don't dismiss something that's worked for years because a new theory says so nor do you hang on to something just because it's been done for years. Athletes need to know their body first and for most. Try new and old methods alike and listen to what "their body" tells them about its success, not what the person making the profit off it tells them.

@ joiletboy

 

Would I have liked for him to increase his velocity, yes. 

I was also only the pitching coach for his last 3 years.

When he came in as sophomore he was in the high sixties mechanics were an issue.. We are not a huge school system and we don't have 60 + guys coming out for jv and another 40 for varsity. And a majority of our kids do not travel ball throughout the summer and fall. So we have to identify potential talent and develop it.

 

He made his college team and is up to 87 that has come with putting on 10 pounds and has never had an arm injury. I'll take that ALL the time.

 

BTW: you imply that 84 is bad. The vast majority of h.s. pitchers rarely get to 80. And many that claim to throw high 80s don't. Just a little story.  My 2nd year I was scouting a team and there was a "college" scout there radar gun in hand. The senior pitcher he was looking at we had played the week before and clocked at 82 max we have a stadium gun and one of our assistants records every pitch. The kid came over to the scout and asked him how he did and he told him his average was 87. Don't believe all these mph people tell you.

 I dont think he was implying 84.  I wouldnt settle either for any workworkout program that maxes you out at 84.  Of course it all depends on the individual as well.

@ TPM

 

I have seen posters elsewhere wondering what type of program a coach had their kids on. I simply replied with what our guy who is now d2  did. Very few have posted anything. I tink he meant why is that program any good if it just maxed the kid at 84.   Multitudes of high school pitchers throwing in the high 80s is a myth. So I'm completely happy with this. Considering his distaste for Olympic type lifts and a metabolism that was on high all the time which made gaining weight difficult.

 

If I can max every senior pitcher I work with at 84\85 heck even breaking into the 80s I will be beyond happy especially if there are no injury issues. That is plenty fast enough to get a look at from colleges. After that I'll let the college pitching coach do the rest considering you study workout and play ball almost the entire school year.

I am not going to debate your pitching philosophy with you.  Every pitcher is different and all depends left/ right.

Be aware that many folks here have frosh, sophs and juniors hitting close to 90, so they wont agree they would be happy if their sons maxed at 84/85 because their goals are to play higher than D2.

Just sayin....

 

Scotty83 = Smartest guy in the room , keep grinding towards that PHD..super impressive amigo and i'm being serious.

 

My son was at 84-86 touching 88 the summer after his sophmore year. I wish we had some formula or specific routine to equate to that result. In looking back i think that was his natural velo range, genetically with whatever throwing he was doing in season. 

 

Now after his sophmore year in the fall, he hit the weight room and also LOVES to run...i call it sprinting the mile but i am on an old guy. Spring opener he came out at 92. Since then routine has been pitcher specifc workouts with weights, dumbells etc and he is up to 95. I agree some guns are not as accurate but we listen to the scouts and his travel gun which is a Stalker II. Velo is not the only thing....but we are looking for a 6 or 7 when it warms up.

 

 

More than likely the combo of better conditioning routine, weight gain, physical maturity, etc has yielded results. I am sure he was never meant to max at 84-85.

       
       
Cheesy I rarely believe anything people tell me lol.  But don't feel like the lone ranger here.  Lots of people who chime in on these pitching threads are long time pitching coaches including myself.  Many others are moms/dads of current or former college/pro pitchers.  Its a pretty informed group.  I would just amend what you say a bit.  There are not an abundance of hs kids throwing 80+ IN BAD PROGRAMS.  good programs they are a dime a dozen.  Most all our pitchers were 80's to 90's where I coached in illinois.  I now enter my second year with a school that has never really had any success and yes we are hurting for velocity.  Coincidentally enough our ace last year topped at 84.  As a senior this year I hope we can get him to 87 maybe 88 with the wind at his back.  And we have a couple young kids we are going to try and groom to be mid 80's guys.  It is a struggle for sure.  Hopefully some day soon we can be talking 90 rather than mid 80's.   The point is simply I don't think 84 is a number to make anyone stand up and notice.  Not criticizing cause like I said I am going through the same thing.  But I will tell you one thing if my own son tops at 84 as a senior he will be extremely disappointed.  There is nothing wrong with d2 or d3.  I just think as TPM said most people on here have higher goals.  If my son plays d3 someday I will go watch him and be proud.  But its not the goal.

@shoveit4ks

 

That is awesome.  I think that partially goes back to you have to have the genetics and athletic ability and it sounds like you son has plenty of that.  It also sound like he has developed the "right" (for no better term)  way in that he had that natural ability and probably smooth mechanics that got him to mid 80's, then as his body matured more between sophomore and junior years and he started working out more.

 

I'm saying those kids are the exception, not the rule, I'm assuming he is wanting to get drafted and not do the college thing.

 

I just saw this and thought it was interesting:

 

2015 roster makeup

2 year college:  69

4 year college: 397

High School:  204

International:  197  (not sure of ages of these guys)

 

That is 69% of current rosters, excluding international players were drafted from college.

@jolietboy

 

What size school?

Given the comments regarding the potential benefits of icing after pitching, can someone describe (in relative detail) exactly how one ices a pitching arm?  Is it like Bad News Bears with a bucket of ice for the elbow or does it involve a couple of icing bags to potentially cover shoulder/elbow and possibly wrist (especially when tendonitis may occassionally flare up)?  Also read about the big no-no about putting ice directly on either ligaments or tendons or possibly one specific ligament/tendon.

I don't see an abundance of kids throwing high eighties in high school. Even looking at reports from PBR events in several states, I don't see a lot of high eighties to nineties. Most good programs will have at least three guys throwing 85+, but there are a lot of programs with only one or two. My son is at a 3A school in Colorado and they dominate with three guys throwing 83-85. In addition, I know of only one other 3A program in our state that can match that. A few of the 5A schools will have bigger numbers. Here in Colorado, I can only name about five or six guys that throw 90's.  However, I think many look at the big Florida/Georgia/California/texas schools like where Boltz's kids play and get the idea that this is the norm. It's not. In fact, I watched three D1 games this weekend outside the top conferences. What I saw was a lot of pitchers throwing low eighties and high seventies. In fact, watching the lafayett-Navy game, neither starter got above 83mph and routinely threw at 78-79.

No pitcher in our state tournament finals last year hit higher than 85.

How many high schools in "Out There", USA?

To what study are you referring? I personally don't know of any actual studies. The idea that icing is detremental to recovery is based on research which shows what happens physically when ice is applied. It reduces swelling by constricting blood flow in the capallaries that service muscles, tendons, and ligaments. This alleviates pain and swelling, but hinders recovery time. Inflammation is the body's attempt to repair damaged muscles and ligaments. Now, if you've done extensive damage like a sprained ankle or broken leg, then alleviating the swelling in order to alleviate the pain and slow the flow of blood - which in drastic cases is much greater than with normal muscle use - is medically beneficial as the need to alleviate the swelling and pain greatly outweighs any small reduction in recovery time associated with icing. However, for normal arm discomfort (soreness) associated with normal pitching activity, ice makes little sense as the discomfort isn't anyhting unbearable and is just a sign that the body is repairing small damage to itself. I used to have my kid use ibuprofin for such pain, but have discontinued due to some research on the dangers of consistent use of NSAIDs. There is an argument for icing that contends that after a certain period of time (around 15-20 minutes) of icing, the blood vessels actually adjust by dilating and then provide more blood flow. However, most icing programs for arms don't advise keeping the ice on for that long, so this benefit, known as the "Hunting effect," never comes into play. In the end, though, I doubt icing delays recovery to any degree that would make me tell a kid that actually believes it helps that he needs to stop.

       
       
Root was this on ESPN or something?  I was shocked when I gunned some D2 pitchers in the 70's recently.  I just don't understand.   How hard is it to throw 80mph?  It's the mph between say 83 and 90 that are really hard to get.  And Cheesy my school has 1200.  Big enough school just little or no interest in baseball.  And a state tournament without a guy over 85?  That is really hard to imagine.  In illinois (unless the system has changed) eight teams would go 'downstate'.  I wonder if there was ever a year without a guy over 85.  My alma mater and the first school I coached at has three at 87 plus and two of those in the 90's.  They pretty routinely have at least one guy in the 90's since about 1976.  And many years of multiple 90mph guys.  It would be facinating to know the velocity of every single D1 pitcher.

I watched two of the games on one of the off-the-wall CBS stations. Both were Patriot league, I believe. Also, earlier in the year, I watched the Jackson State vs. Grambling game on MLB and was amazed that, of the five pitchers in that game, they broke 80 about five times total between them. Of course, that isn't D1, but still...I imagine there are a lot of HS kids out there throwing low-to-mid eighties that just don't do anything to get exposure and maybe I'm just seeing some good pitchers who happen to throw lower velocity and did a good job of promoting themselves to smaller schools.

I've added a link to the report from this year's Colorado All-State PBR showcase. This event attracted, from my review of the list, the vast majority of the best 2016 and later pitchers in the state. It doesn't include many 2015s and I do know of five 2015s throwing in the nineties. However, notice that only two touch 90 (and barely, at that) and few hit 85+.

http://www.prepbaseballreport....ts-Posted-1825304769

The school I am at has just at around 650 students meaning lots more 2/3
sport athletes and we don't get a lot of sick nasty athletes out for
baseball and rarely have much on the bench. Historically our head coach
has done rather well. We are trying to change the culture a little and get
more kids involved.

Here's another example from a PBR scouting report from a game this weekend concerning the #17 rated 2016 pitcher in the state:

 

Ranked No. 49 in the 2016 class. 5-foot-9, 170 pound RHP has a bull-dog attitude
on mound and carries himself with confidence and swagger. Does a good job
holding runners on. Fastball was consistently 80-82 but we have had him 83-84
last fall. Has a nasty change-up coming in at 73 with sink. CB was 63 mph from
11/5 angle. Throws a slider at 67 mph. Delivery is max effort and deceiving from
a short 10/5 arm slot. Was 1.22 from home to first with runners on base.

I've found numerous examples (and I'll make this the last), but here is the scouting report from last week on a 2016 RHP already commited to Army:

 

Committed to West Point and currently ranked No. 59 in the 2016 class. 6-foot-1,
180-pounds, Fastball sat 83-84 MPH in the zone with good run. Breaking ball has
tight break, 78 MPH. Changeup sat 76-77 MPH. Pitched 3 very effective innings in
relief

Where do you get the scouting report from?  Who makes them public?  Scouts have been at our games...would be interested to see what they are writing.

In these cases, from PBR's scouts. You have to pay extra for access to the reports ($10/mo, but cheaper by the year). They provide a good service (think of them as PG-lite, though bigger here in Colorado than PG), so I won't begrudge them the ability to make a little money off the reports.