Lets Talk Pitching - Ask/Discussion about pitching from professional instructor

Oh yea...its a "know" fact cause LA said so!
Thanks!

       
       


Not saying I agree or disagree with this but the THEORY of running to help remove lactic acid is that the body can and will use lactic acid for energy if readily available. Such as a build up of it after exercise. I see more logic in the theory that a light jog immediately after exercising will use some of the lactic acid for energy production thus increasing the speed of absorption. The less logical theory for next day running by those that believe some soreness is caused by unabsorbed lactic acid (and no they are not all just old school coaches quite a few at the top of the field believe this) is that the lactic acid that was not absorbed for what ever reason back into the body will be used as an energy source therefore removing it or "flushing" it from the system.

My field of study is not lactic acid so I haven't studied it enough to have a strong opinion one way or another. However I won't say his name because I'm not going to put words in his mouth but I believe one of the top scientists in the field believes in this.

As for not being able to find the information online. Understand only a very small percentage of medical and scientific research is on the web. If you want to research exercise science go to a university library. Most research is only interesting or even usable to a few people. Now tid bits of research are often plucked from a research paper and posted to help someone sell something or justify their opinion. Sometimes those are taken the way the researcher ment for them to be sometimes they are taken out of context or even manipulated to show a desired outcome. Either way as with anything else be careful what you read on the internet. Especially if there is something to buy on that web site.

Really ? You want to rely on the internet for scientific research? No wonder you can't be taken seriously . 

Recovery is a new area of interest in optimal athletic performance and while I was one to bust baseballinstructs chops on running, there is some evidence that recovery is enhanced by some form of aerobic activity. I think we should separate "long distance running" as a training method for baseball vs going for a couple of mile run the next day after pitching. My guess is that it does more good than bad, and you don't need anything other than a pair of running shoes, which make it practical.

 

I started doing a little search on the internet for "athletic recovery" and there is quite a bit of information on it. I copied one article below as a reference.

 

My take on it is this: 

 

Don't use distance running as a way to improve athletic performance, but a couple mile run the day after pitching probably does more good than bad. Likely a bike or rowing is better, but at least you are helping recovery.

 

Maximizing Your Athlete's Recovery

by Shad Forsythe – Performance Specialist, Athletes' Performance

As professionals dealing with athletic performance, we primarily focus on training aspects, but many times recovery is an undervalued and overlooked means of preparation for our athletes. This past five years, as a performance specialist for Athletes’ Performance, I have had the opportunity to prepare some of the world’s best athletes and teams for upcoming games, seasons, and important tournaments. From our in-season experience with the LA Galaxy and our World Cup experience with the German National Soccer team one thing is for sure, athletic seasons and tournaments are long and strenuous and recovery should be and integral part of any athletes’ training plan.

Our athletes often view recovery as a day away from training in which they do absolutely nothing. I am not advocating a “no days off” policy, but a day designed for recovery is different than a day off. As one of Newton’s Laws of Motion states “a body at rest will remain at rest unless acted upon by an external force”. You can’t recover and prepare for upcoming competitions passively. Recovery should be an active process that is a part of the total training program.

During the 2006 World Cup our Medical Doctor took blood samples weekly throughout the tournament to monitor signs of stress and overtraining. Prior to our semi final match against the Italians, Doctor Myer reported the lowest markers for stress and overtraining in the history of German National Teams during a tournament and credited the results to our consistent recovery regimen coupled with proper undulations in training intensity and volume. The following will discuss strategies we utilized for enhancing recovery directly after competition and also designing recovery days for your athletes.

IMMEDIATE RECOVERY

Immediate recovery should take place within the first thirty minutes after competition or training. Athletes’ Performance has had great results utilizing immediate recovery which encompasses nutrition and cryotherapy. Post workout nutrition should consist of: a mixture of carbohydrates, fats, proteins (based on the athletes body composition and exertion level), electrolytes (based on the athletes perspiring levels), and water for hydration. Cryotherapy should consist of cold water immersion (55 degrees F) for at least 5 minutes. Athletes exerting the whole body (Rugby/American Football) should be fully immersed with only the head showing while athlete primarily exerting the lower body (Cyclist/Soccer) immersion to above the waist is acceptable. For the 2006 World Cup we traveled with 6 big garbage cans that we could fill with ice and water for immersion directly after each contest.

Primary Goals for Immediate Recovery:

1. To provide the depleted body with the proper nutrients to replenish glycogen and electrolyte stores. (Nutrition)
2. Cooling the body’s core temperature, hydration, and decreasing the production of catabolic hormones. (Nutrition/Cryotherapy)
3. Decreasing secondary hypoxic injury. Micro tears occur throughout muscle tissue and are the primary cause of DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness). Cooling the body’s tissue limits the extent of DOMS by decreasing the tissues need for oxygen and thus limiting secondary hypoxic injury to the micro tears. (Cryotherapy)

Example: Soccer Player finishes playing a 90 minute match.

1. He immediately has an EAS Myoplex Original Chocolate Shake, 24 oz of Gatorade, and 24 oz of Water. (For an economical option try chocolate milk, a banana, and some water.)
2. He then sits in a cold whirlpool 55 degrees F for 5 minutes.

RECOVERY DAY

In the planning of your athletes’ weekly calendar, the recovery day should be the day after the contest and the day before the athletes’ day off (if there is one). On this day the main focus should be to enhance the clearing of metabolic waste products from the day before and to return tissues to normal length, tension, and quality. Athletes’ Performance has had great success facilitating recovery by the utilization of these modalities: increasing circulation, utilizing self and/or professional massage and flexibility techniques, and utilizing contrast therapy.

Primary Goals of Recovery Day

1. Increase circulation with the use of non-pounding aerobic modalities such as stationary bikes or elliptical trainers to bring oxygen rich blood into the recovering tissues and enhance the removal of metabolic waste products. (Aerobic Flush/Contrast Therapy)
2. Self massage and flexibility utilizing foam rolls from Perform Better or other modalities to assist in returning muscles to normal length, tension, and quality. (Self or Professional Massage/Flexibility)
3. Utilization of cold and hot modalities such as plunges, whirlpools, Jacuzzis, saunas, and steam rooms to stimulate vasoconstriction followed immediately by vasodilatation to enhance circulation of oxygen rich blood and removal of metabolic waste products. (Contrast Therapy)

Example: A day after a match that a soccer player has played 90 minutes.

1. 20 minutes aerobic flush, this should be easy with no work on the legs.
2. 20 minute self massage using Perform Better foam rolls and flexibility routine.
3. 2 minutes cold whirlpool 55 degrees F, 3 minutes hot whirlpool 104 degrees F repeated 3 times. Note: if the athlete plans to have a lazy day ending in hot is fine if they plan to be more active have them complete one more cycle of cold.
4. Total Time 55 minutes.

Items of Note:

1. The above is the optimal order of modalities for recovery but beneficial results can be achieved using the above modalities in any order.
2. In the grand planning scheme a recovery day may be a good day to utilize upper body strength and power training for those athletes who engage in primarily lower body activities.
3. I recommend a professional massage once a week for professional and elite level athletes during the in-season and high training times of the off season.

Recovery is a very important part of any athletes’ training program. Along with immediate recovery and recovery days, different modalities can be utilized daily after training to enhance an Athletes’ Performance. Recovery should not be a weekly thing, but a daily activity. Take ten minutes and stretch after training. Foam Roll your legs after a tough day. Spend 5 minutes in the cold plunge after a weight room session. These strategies take very little time, but can make the difference over the course of a long season or tournament.

TPM,

 

What type of program does your son follow?  Does it include any type of running, even prior to stretching?  Does he do any type of running after he pitches?  What does he do when he is sore?  You might have posted this information somewhere before, sorry to ask you to repeat it.  Thanks in advance.  

Scotty83- If it's possible to provide some sources where that research may be readily available, that would be absolutely awesome. I'd be really interested in reading more in depth on the topic.

 

BOF- Are there any AP (now EXOS) studies on baseball, specifically? I find the concept of Contrast Therapy especially intriguing, but I do believe the physical exertion of a soccer player during competition is different than that of a baseball player…especially a pitcher.

 

First, it says not to run. Second, this isn't an AP thing, it was posted at Perform Better, who are in the business of selling equipment (not that they can't be right, just need more corroborating evidence and we should be a touch more skeptical on some of these claims). So, can anyone find any evidence backing this up?

Your trolling is making me laugh every time, keep it up!

For those who aren't accustomed to LAball's trolling, it's nothing new. He does it on pretty much every other baseball site.

 

JH:

 

BOF- Are there any AP (now EXOS) studies on baseball, specifically? I find the concept of Contrast Therapy especially intriguing, but I do believe the physical exertion of a soccer player during competition is different than that of a baseball player…especially a pitcher.

Check out some Thermal Exchange studies done by Stanford on the AvaCore "Glove." Pretty interesting stuff and studied over a wide range of applications. I am testing a negative pressure sleeve with palm cooling that costs two orders of magnitude less; fairly interesting results so far!

       
       


JH I'm assuming your talking about research about the theory's of running to remove lactic acid. I have no idea where to point you to that on the internet. Most of the research I have ever read was in the libraries of Vanderbilt University, Austin Peay State University, or Middle Tennessee State University. Plus I've never researched lactic acid just ran across it in other things is was researching.

However I can tell you pretty much any research on the subject pre 2004 on lactic acid removal should cover it. Though anything pre mid 90's I think would be more increased blood flow moving it to the kidneys rather than absorbing it. Which I assume is where the term flushing it came from.

Post 2004 you'll find more of a mixed bag. That's when a biochemist named Rogers or Robergs did the study that theorized lactic acid doesn't cause asitosis (this is what causes muscle burn and fatigue) but it was actually a by product and further more actually helped the body slow down acitosis. This is when lactic acid became good.

The main point I was trying to make was be careful with research in the fitness community. The research is great it's the interpretation of the research that is the problem. To use the 2004 study as an example it cause this line of thinking. So lactic acid doesn't cause soarness. So running is to get rid of lactic acid which doesn't cause soarness. Ok stop running. However that same research paper said that endurance training increases the production of lactic acid and therefore will help prevent acitosis.

Basically the research trainers use to say no endurance training for explosive athletes flat out said explosive athletes should do endurance training. 

This is why I tell people to be careful of research or better yet be careful of someone else's opinion of that research.

By the way for the record. In my humble opinion I believe next day running alleviates soreness because of endorphin release but hey if it works for the athlete do it. If it doesn't don't. Honestly it's such a small insignificant part of an athletes overall training I don't see why it's so heavily discussed. But that's just me.

I hope all this rambling somehow answered your question JH. If not I'm sorry for making you read threw it but I can't sleep and I'm bored so you got a long answer hahaha.

JH I have not seen any baseball specific work, but hey I am just a Dad trolling the internet....one of the computer coaches as Sultan pointed out earlier. 

 

What intrigues me however is what is actually happening during recovery from a physiological stand point? I found out about ice bath's from the sprinting coach and helping sprinters recovery and I though hmmmm why does that work? From a mechanical engineering standpoint heating and cooling cause expansion and contraction and with it fluid flow in a liquid environment. So what that has to do with a biological environment and the physiological effects of recovery in a pitcher?, I am not sure but it seems to work with them as well from practical observations. Kyle is on to something with compression sleeve's.

 

I have not gone to ASMI's site in a while and will check around there when I get a chance later in the week. 

 

From what I know a pitcher needs to:

 

1. Get some level of aerobic activity. I think a bike, rowing are preferred but running or light sprints seem to make sense to me.

2. Get some sort of movement in the area of potential damage so scar tissue does not develop. Bands, weighted balls, physical movement, not so much to further damage the muscle and soft tissue of the area.

3. Ice bath's seem to help in recovery within two days for some reason.

4. Late add: Yoga or Pilates are also encouraged in some college programs. Probably relates to 2. 

 

This is all based on anecdotal evidence on my part not on any medical expertise. I may go post some questions on ASMI like I said and get their response when I get some time later in the week.

 

 

OK I went over to ASMI and there are some current question on their board that likely came from some HSBBW posters. I found this reply to ice baths

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 From ASMI:

 

The general theory behind this cold therapy is that the exposure to cold helps to combat the microtrauma (small tears) in muscle fibers and resultant soreness caused by intense or repetitive exercise.

The ice bath is thought to constrict blood vessels, flush waste products and reduce swelling and tissue breakdown. Subsequently, as the tissue warms and the increased blood flow speeds circulation, the healing process is jump-started. The advantage of an ice bath submersion is that a large area of intertwined musculature can be treated, rather than limiting the cold therapy to a concentrated area with a localized ice pack.


Read more: http://asmiforum.proboards.com...e-bath#ixzz38ISPF2LX

Ice is great for muscles.  Not so great for ligaments. UCLs beware.

Just curious: Why?

 

What about the connective tissue? 

Now see this interests me much more than lactic acid or the minuscule effects of a quick jog. I remember what ten years ago starting to hear chatter about icing a pitchers arm being a bad and possibly damaging thing. However this was coming out at the same time ice baths were really gaining popularity. The positive or negative effects of icing a pitchers arm is what I want to see research on.

I for one have never just iced my sons arm. One he's only thirteen and two he's never had a sore arm. Now he has had a heavy arm after a pitching start and we iced and heated his arm the next day to get him ready to play a position the next day with good results. Well at least good from a stand point of felt better. So this is a subject area I have great personal interest in.

My son as a youth always iced his arm, when he went to college the pcoach told us that he lets his pitchers and catchers do what they feel comfortable with so with that as a starter, he continued to ice his arm until about a  few years ago (reliever). He will ice his arm if he feels a bit sore but he doesnt feel that it helps one way or the other. There are many that say its essential and many say unless you have an issue its not necessary and there are some pro/college teams who do not ice their pitchers after outings.

I think that icing young arms is less as important as making sure that they are not over used.  Perhaps not letting him play a position so soon (especially one that requires less throws) might be more beneficial.

JMO

Yes, I posted what he does but I dont think that you read what others have to say.

What he does NOT do is run specifically to relieve any soreness the following day.

 How did he decide NOT to run after pitching to relieve soreness?  Is that something he decided on his own or something that you recommended through your research?

I do not recommend him to do anything, he has been playing the professional game for 8 years ( plus 3 years of ACC ball).  Over this period of time, he has changed his training based upon the people he has worked with (similar philosophies as to those that JH listed).   The series of excercises I spoke about come from a pretty well known surgeon from many years ago. These series of excercises, or ones similar I believe, have been adopted by most ML teams for pitchers. My son also hits 95-96 and a reliever.

I am not sure the if bigger picture is being lost here.  When sore - just about any movement / exercise will help loosen up the soreness....in the old days, it was running, now I agree with JH - that there are more beneficial ways to better accomplish...all of which have been posted previously. 

 

Personally, after a start, my son will do some explosive short duration cardio work, band work, and light throwing...seems to work well.  If he feels extra sore, then short ice, followed with Ibuprofen, and Lurong velvet deer antler.... I KNOW before you give me crap about the supplement, I cannot give any scientific data on it, but based on our experience it has worked....Interesting guy that started the company...good guy Adam Greenberg.  

 

Regarding icing, here is an interesting article from Brent at Top Velocity :

 

"When body tissues are cooled, nerve cells in the chilled area initially force adjacent blood vessels to constrict, leading to a marked reduction in blood flow to that part of the body. However, if the temperature of the affected area continues to drop, nerve activity is depressed and the blood vessels begin to open up, flooding the injured tissues with blood, even though cold is still being applied. This flood-of-blood (Hunting effect) is the human body’s reflex reaction to thwart severe cold injury in a body part subjected to chilling stress.

Dr. Meeusen’s studies showed that icing initially stops the swelling and blood flow of the damaged blood vessels into the local muscle tissue but after a period of 10 minutes it can begin to have an opposite effect to the area. His documentation continues to state this damage continues on to another important system of healing.

Lymphatic Vessels: Prolonged ice application can cause lymphatic vessels (which ordinarily help carry excess tissue fluids back into the cardiovascular system) to increase in permeability. This causes large amounts of fluid to pour from the lymphatics “the wrong way” into the injured area, increasing local swelling and pressure, potentially contributing to greater pain. If icing goes on too long, the lymphatic vessels can actually be nearly obliterated, losing all of their fluid to surrounding tissues.

The lesson here is NOT that icing is bad. What we have learned is that icing is effective initially but begins to cause problems after about 10 minutes. Read the description below for the proper way to ice the arm after a game to help aid the healing process.

Ice the elbow or shoulder region for 10 minutes immediately after pitching (DO NOT PUT ICE ON ULNAR NEVER), remove the ice for about 30 minutes, and then reapply it for 10 additional minutes. Repeat this cycle of about two 10-minute icings per hour as often as desired, based on how many pitches thrown, during the first 24 to 48 hours after pitching."

 

 

Don't know what happened with the above cut and paste....sorry about that, not sure why it pasted in several formats, and multiple times.  I tried to go in and edit the post but it does not show the additional posts in the edit box, only the one....and did not intend to post the LINK...I am not a customer, nor promoter of Top Velocity....although I do like some of his "stuff".

 

Sorry again!

To add one more point, as a starter the recovery period is much different than for releivers, so many do feel that running is beneficial. I know my son liked to run afterwards but as far as we have discussed it wasnt for flushing out the lactic acid, more like flushing out the head.  I have no issue with anyone sho prefers to run, but I do not believe t is for the reasons you state.

As an instructor, it is your obligation to be familiar with all the information available in 2014, that would include training (or leave that to the trainers). Because running worked for you may not mean it will for someone else. JMO

BFS,

The deer antler is a discovery of DK's friend, who has asked him to represent the company.

TPM,

 

Like I said, the "stuff" works for us, makes sense to us, and we use it.  I have followed Adam for a while (I assume that is who you are talking about), and find him to be good guy....BFS Jr. takes it twice every day....if sore we double up on the dose.

Yup Adam Greenberg, his teammate from Team Israel.

Banned by MLB...too bad.

Sorry, my error, its not banned but comes with warnings of possible contamination, sort of like take at your own risk.

 

More on icing...

 

Dr. Gabe Mirkin, the doctor who literally wrote the book on RICE (rest, ice, compression, elevation) has changed his tune with regard to icing, stating that icing actually delays recovery.

 

http://drmirkin.com/fitness/wh...delays-recovery.html

I think that the important thing here is that most of us are bringing different things to the table.

That's why I am adamant about anyone that is adamant that those should follow what worked for them, there are so many choices. As a parent we had great people surround our pitcher but we still did our homework and I still try to keep up with the every changing philosophies even though I have no clue how long son will remain in the game.

What baseballinstructor and a few others may fail to realize is that all of us have something in common, parents of pitchers, or were at one time ourselves (not me) and if we took everything someone said and not do our own investigation our sons may never bcome pitchers beyond HS.

I have known some of the people here for many years, and although I don't always agree with them, I respect that they are able to open themselves up to knew and different ways of doing things and help others.  The game of baseball and how it is played and all that goes with it, is even very much different than the game when son became a professional years ago.

Since we're now listing recovery stuff we do, here's a generic program that is a good shell of what our athletes do (programs are typically individualized but this is a good start):

 

After a tough throwing session (pitching, bullpen, weighted baseballs, long toss, etc), athletes will do this circuit in some order:

 

-Foam roll / self-myofascial release in various areas (lacrosse ball, SKLZ ball)

-Resistance band work, primarily external rotators

-Isometric holds in external rotation

-Internal rotation stretch of some sort

-Shoulder tube / Total Bar oscillations with arm in various positions

-Rebounders with plyocare balls

-Elbow extension stretch

-Stim using Marc Pro or Compex

-Voodoo flossing / compression wrapping on elbow

 

Then we might do some cardio, like interval-style Prowler sled pushes, Concept2 rowing, sprints, speed deadlifts, etc. Also some challenging open-chain stability work like waiter carries, overhead slosh pipe holds, maybe some upward external rotation tosses, etc.

 

If it sounds like a lot, it's because it is. We treat recovery like it's as important as the training effect (and in reality we should treat it like it's MORE important).

I have to say that this thread is turning out to be a awesome resource for pitchers or pitchers parents (coaches also) for some of the modern thinking about pitching, conditioning and recovery. 

I agree!

Not only was it (long distance running) something that I personally did that contributed to my success ...

 

Maybe it was just that it didn't hinder your success. But you could have spent the time doing something more productive.

It can be very amusing when a poster doesn't know the background of the person they are debating.

What JH has uncovered is what I've been advising parents for years. Just because a guy played pro ball doesn't mean he knows how to teach.  I was a successful player in high school and college back in the 70s. Much of what I was taught turned out to be folklore passed through the generations. Access to information is now as easy as sitting down at a table in your house. To waste this opportunity is a shame. If you're not moving forward you're moving backwards as everyone else passes you. 

RJM, I respect your opinion, (BTW your post to the Legion Mom in the other thread was perfect) but we have been through 2 pages of attacks, so lets try to stick to the issues and facts if you don't mind.  

RJM,

I have a decent understanding of JHs background.  We shared a few direct messages and I think we are on common ground with what we both have to offer.  Hopefully we are all here to help parents and ultimately help kids to enjoy their baseball experience.

What I do not understand is trying to discredit someone that has fully lived that experience. High school, college, minor, major, Internationally, etc... I am simply offering to help parents and kids navigate their way through the process. JH was nice enough to personally apologize and realize that having access to someone that has the experience that every single baseball player wants and every baseball parent wants for their kids here is a good thing.  

I agree with you, sometimes just because a player played professionally doesn't make them good instructors.  However, in this case.  The proof is in the pudding. Several players have moved on to play highs school, college and professional baseball.  I don't care to prove anything to you, I just hope you can respect my experience and the help I am providing here.

 

If you go to Yahoo Answers the internet can't be relied upon. But if you read credible sources their information is reliable. It's a benefit reliable sources post their material on the internet. If Dr Andrews posts on the internet regarding arm injuries and surgery it's not exactly a Yahoo Answer.

My posts were page one and page two responses. I just started reading this thread.

If you were simply helping navigate through the process, no one would have a problem. It's the teaching discredited methods, and not attempting to be current on the latest methods, science and facts. Not to mention demanding respect without earning it. You don't just get respect because you demand it, you need to earn it. We're still waiting for you to earn it.