Lets Talk Pitching - Ask/Discussion about pitching from professional instructor

Originally Posted by BaseballInstructor50:

…However, in this case.  The proof is in the pudding. Several players have moved on to play highs school, college and professional baseball….

 

BBI,

Mebbi I’m wrong here, but I suspect at least some of the folks aren’t seeing your proof as proof of anything. I.e., what evidence is there that your program is what caused those players to move up? It like the old argument that Mike Marshal never had students make it to the ML so he must not know what he was talking about, ignoring the fact that the vast majority of his students weren’t among the very best when he got his hands on them, many had already been injured, and many were past their prime. There are a lot of people who literally hate MM, and he not only had a fantastic ML career, he earned a PhD in Kinesiology and worked in the field for many many years. So why do you think people would treat you much better?

 

Were these students of yours who made it to the next level the best or worst players among their peers? I suspect they were among the best, which means they had a big advantage in both talent and opportunity, and whether or not they followed your program or someone else’s, they would go on to higher levels.

 

It’s really too bad there’s no way to resolve this “disagreement”. The only way to do that would be to track some players who never changed programs, then compare them to see how high they advanced, or to try to figure out where every one of your students ranked against their peers before they began on your program, then track whether or not their position improved or declined once they got on your program. But even then, there wouldn’t be any way to know if they might have done better or worse following someone else’s program. IOW, right now its really not possible to say for sure one way or the other.

 

So what’s happening is, people are looking at what’s currently known as the leading edge in knowledge on this issue, but not only are you arguing something different, you don’t seem willing to accept what others who are far more expert in these things are saying, or to look at why they are saying it. But I sure don’t fault you for trying. I fault you for faulty logic and reasoning, but think your wanting to help players is a laudable thing to do and hope you continue trying.

 

One final thought. Something I learned from one of the best pitching coaches in the ML, “Red” Adams, is that no “program” works equally well or everyone, because everyone’s different. He’d have some of his pitchers run, but have others do something else. Another great pitching coach, when asked about running for pitchers, Leo Mazzone is reported to have said, “I think pitchers running is great, but not when they’re wearing an Atlanta Braves uniform.” Their time would be much better spent in the bullpen working on improving their pitching.”

 

Now that doesn’t mean those guys are right by any means, but it does go to show that there are many way to skin a cat.

Pretty good story HERE.

 

 

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I respect the fact that you have come here and offered to help and I respect your experience as a former player, I know how very difficult the game can be.  But I think that you also need to show some respect for us as well,although you may not know our names or who we are, that doesnt matter, but there are many people here that are very knowledgeable, have been here for many many years and offered their best advice without looking to get potential business or used their experience to influence others that they knew better.

I think that is what is bothering many here.

 

IMO this has been a really good discussion, I have read most of the info that has been posted and related and learned.

 

Have you?

TPM,

 

I would never discredit what another person has to offer about this game.  I am speaking to that same point and saying you shouldn't discredit what I say.  Everyone has something to offer someone on here.  But to straight out say, don't listen to someone, IMO is wrong.  I think you guys do a great job offering people advice,  I am simply trying to do the same and use my experience to their benefit.  This is a great thread, can we all get along in it?

I get what you are saying, I did not say not to listen to you, but I do feel like some of the suggestions that you are offering was the norm back when son was 8, and that was 20 years ago.  Things have changed, the college game has changed,   college pitching and  pro pitching have changed, recruiting has changed, players have changed as well as training and recovery methods.  

 

I believe that a player himself is what makes him move up, the drive and the ambition and the love of the game. The people that surround him should be good people but the player has to figure it out for himself.   son played for a pretty well known college coach and I have never once heard him say, "my guys got high draft picks because of me or my program".

 

And FWIW, he never made his pitchers run after a game, only if they wanted to!

There has to be a certain humility when you play or coach the game.  

 

 

 

Science and evidence have done that years ago.

 

If you are wrong, it's totally 100% correct to say people shouldn't listen to you.

Link to recent article by Alan Jaeger on throwing cycle pre-season and in season. Interesting differences between starters and bull pen pitchers. Interesting differences in coming out of the pen vs starters. My son came out of the pen for the first time in his career this year and he found it more difficult to prepare due to the inconsistent nature of in game pitching.

 

http://www.jaegersports.com/pr...articles.php?psid=24

 

FWIW, I have been around for a long time.  As TPM mentioned what was standard procedure years ago has changed in many areas.  So much so that it is hard to take anything as the gospel.  Unless we all of a sudden stop learning it is reasonable to expect things will be changing again in the future.

 

So right or wrong, I suppose we are left with where we are at the current time.  But 20 years from now what is right today could turn out to be wrong.  What is wrong today could turn out to be right.  There are many examples that lead me to that conclusion.

 

One more thing to think about.  All great pitching coaches, all great hitting coaches, do not agree on everything.

 

We have a knowledgable crowd that participates in these discussions.  I have actually read some of the things that BaseballInstructor50 has written about pitching other than the running issue. Some really good stuff that can only come from experience. IMO.  

 

That said, if his intent is to increase traffic to his website, he should talk to Julie.  If his intent is simply to help we should welcome him.  Doesn't matter if he is right or wrong about something, we can all learn from each other.  One of the best hitting coaches that ever lived has been supposedly proven wrong about certain things.  Probably can't ever change his mind, but sure would be interesting to hear him talk about hitting.

Why is it that for a kid to reach his baseball potential he needs to play other sports (football, basketball, soccer) heaven forbid he runs over a mile.

are there any specific drills that will help me on hitting my spots?

Alert to parents looking for Professinal pitching coach Inland Empire California. Coach is back after a 5 month layoff for personal reasons. Excellent communicator or the game 

I also played big league baseball for a number of years and still am very active as an Personal coach. For all you who feel running for pitchers is a thing of the past, you are sadly mistaken. you need your legs and cardio vascular strength when it comes to those late innings. So baseball instructor 50 why try to convince the stubborn majority with knowledge intended to help a generation of future athletes. When a person tells me the game has changed and so have the techniques and mechanics I let them win. Although I have seen some of my former students recently get drafted into professional baseball. That's pretty good after teaching them a method that is outdated. Keep up the good work because with all of the travel teams and coaches pushing their philosophy this generation of kids will suffer the most. God bless you all for sharing both positive or negative

Gotta ask, DeePee, do you think that your students were drafted because of the long distance runing? Do you think they would not have been had they forgone the running?

No I believe both were going to get noticed because of the pitching performances and what was taught to them but what I am saying is running is apart of what we do and teach to future athletes. Have you been to Spring training or big league camp recently? For the larger part of early camp, conditioning or running is a major part of pitchers daily routine until the regular position players arrive. We are talking about total preparation both mentally and physically. Pitchers don't have to run marathons but they need to work there cardio and legs to keep up with the grind of a long season. Relievers and starters run at different levels and pace, but run. if your claim held water, why do guys like Kershaw and Greinke, Lackey and Chapmans show up to the ball park hours before anyone and run on there own? These guys are set for life but they run because they know it helps keep there body and mind peaked. Have you seen the Dominican players level of preparation, not to stereotype them but they understand and want to tap into everything that can help them excel And play above there competition. if your competition is running why not you? Running / training helps athletes excel Physically and mentally. so for me, I will keep telling young up and coming athletes to run right along with mechanical training. Not marathons but definitely do some running both long ( 2 to 3 miles) and short ( sprints, hills or dashes).  Again if you know any prospective young athletes that need guidance in Inland Empire California shoot them my info. God bless you

DeePee, I believe anyone who understands athletic performance in pitchers requires a healthy body that includes endurance and cardiovascular fitness. There are many ways to achieve this other than long distance running. I think that is the point some people are making. You have to run in baseball (D'Oh) but at least from my perspective there is a lot more knowledge today in training athletes for baseball than there was even 4 years ago. I for one would not be looking to a travel ball coach for this advice, just the same as I would not look to a pitching instructor for a workout. (unless they were highly trained in this area and most if not all pitching instructors are not). Guys like P3sports, Eric Cressey, Gymjones, who specialize in fitness training for athletes (including baseball) are where I would look. 

 

As an example my son, a college pitcher, is in extremely good cardio and strength shape, he can run a 5'30" mile if required but does not run very often. Much of the cardio gains are achieved in interval training as well as bikes, rowers, and "ski rowers"  If you have not look at the above sites I would if I were you.

 

Good luck.

Originally Posted by roothog66:

Gotta ask, DeePee, do you think that your students were drafted because of the long distance runing? Do you think they would not have been had they forgone the running?

 

I’d like to expand on that just a bit.

 

DeePee, do you think the only way to build leg and cardio strength is to run long distances? Also, do you believe that every player is the same, and therefore should train the same way?

BOF is right on. You dont go to a pitching coach for training unless that coach has been trained to give that advice.

ML pitchers with big contracts dont do very much in spring training. Its a very long season and they need their knees to hold up so running is minimal.   40 man roster guys not on the 25 man and invites will do all they can to get noticed. Running still is a requirement in college and milb pre season, I think its more of a mental thing than actual physical and you can achieve cardio fitness in many more ways than pounding the pavement.

Usually the guys who have been to college catch on much quicker than those that have never been through serious training for their position.

 

I agree with everything you just said about various ways of achieving cardio work, and no, you do not have to just pound pavements. I am a fan of it all, not just one. So if your preference is outside in the air great or if indoors on a stairmaster,  treadmill or  stationary bike awesome, or a combination of them both great, just put in the work.  Nope, you cant run the ball to the plate, you got to throw it. There is something that separates the ones that make it from the ones that dont. I am just honored and blessed to have had a chance to make it. I guess thats why 31flavors ice cream is still around. There u take your basic ice cream and add what you like to it: chocalate, sprinkles, nuts or nothing. Athletics is pretty much the same I am a living witness add to it whatever you may that might make you better. I made it from a town populated with 650 people to big leagues. God is good


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What team and how long were you in the big league..not just minor league.

Dodgers, Brewers, Mariners and Japan again God bless you my friend,  keep 
Making a difference

Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy S® 5

I asked you a question...big league or minors?
When?

1997...that was 14 years ago.
Its a new era, things have changed!

Close to 6 in the big leagues with those teams I mentioned but it seems as though you have a debating spirit. I have stated what I wanted to state. Have a peaceful and blessed 2015

Thanks Dennis

> On Jan 2, 2015, at 8:22 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

Before I go , how many years did you play in the majors and with what teams?

Thanks Dennis

> On Jan 2, 2015, at 8:22 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

I never played any years in proball. Why would you assume that?

Does one have to be involved in baseball to understand that changes have been made to conditioning and training and why?
My point and others has been that pitcher training and conditioning is very different from what it was years ago (even when son began college and pro career). I certainly would want to be sure that the person my pitcher would be training with be aware of proper methods used today, because things are a whole lot different than they were even a short time ago.

 

I am not sure how much to trust anyone who comes onto a site looking for business and does not seem to be open minded to todays methods of conditioning and training.

I do not wish to take the time to read all the way back to the beginning of this.  But here are my thoughts on pitching instruction.  First it means absolutely nothing to me if a guy played big league ball or stopped in little league.  Shouldn't we all have learned this by now with the success of the modern day GM's who really have no playing experience but know how to analyze and disect things?  Ab Ility to do something has little correlation to ability to teach it.  Second (and I am not saying the OP doesn't do this) if they don't use video I would never trust a paid instructor.  Finally I agree with what several have said, things change and you have to remain open minded.   When enough evidence stacks up against what you have been teaching for years don't dig your heels in.  It is no shame to say "I have researched some new findings and I am making a change to how I do things".  The mark of a dedicated and intelligent coach.

Excellent post. Probably the best trainers are the ones that have degrees in that field.

 

And I agree that former ML or milb really dont always make the best instructors.  Not sure that this should be the reason why you would pay someone to instruct/train your son and IMO probably why milb does not always have the best pitching coaches. Reminds me of one of sons milb teammates who really struggled and after one year gave up the job and now one of the best managers in the farm system. There are so very few who can do it really well (manage and teach).

 

The best are the ones that are willing to consider new ideas and new philosophies.  

Pretty simple for me:

:

You get your meat from the meat market, your bread from the bakery. 

 

Get a proper strength and conditioning from an expert in the field who has some experience training baseball athletes, pitching instruction from a pitching instructor who you develop trust in, you also have throwing programs like Jaeger, Wolforth, drivelinebaseball, etc. Once you are at the college level and beyond most athletes have been exposed to a number of different approaches and develop a routine based on their personal needs. Mobility, not mentioned previously discussed here is also huge, again depending on the athlete. Yoga, Pilates, and mobilitywod.com, are places to get this aspect. As far as pitching instruction I would say the best my son has used is his college coach who never pitched beyond college, he had coaches who had long "big league" bios that were worthless, Kyle Boddy never played past HS, the best strength and conditioning coach he has used never played baseball, but will be the first GymJones affiliate in Ca shortly.So while a resume is important comfort and trust with the coach, instructor, is paramount. Since this site is for HS athletes working their way through the process many of us stick around to help them. TPM and others are mostly parents who have had their kids work through the process so, she, and many others stick around to help them. Discussions like these are just many of the very enlightening ones that happen here that should help those working through the process. 

 

Wishing all of the pitchers out there a happy and successful 2015. 

       
       
I agree that when dealing with trainers for any sporting activity you want to make sure they are someone that stays in touch with the latest information. However unlike say doctors where the latest information is baised on actual research and science. A great deal of the new training will be made on assumptions and opinions. You have to be careful of trainers that just jump on the latest fad also. Look at how much training has been done of the past 40 years that has been proven to be useless. Those methods weren't done by quack pots. They were done by respected leaders in the field at the time and they were horribly wrong. Stick with what works for you not what someone else tells you that you should do. Try new things and have an open mind but don't just blindly follow because it's a new thing or its recomended by an "expert". New sells better than proven.

Scotty that statement about coming on website and soliciting clients is what we call using social media. Look around, people put themselves out on the web for business daily, jaegerband, Tom house videos, P3sports, baseball instructor50'! gym jones and TPM. Even you are soliciting attention with your well thought out discussions. This is not about criticizing or clowning on another, just an open discussion page

Sorry Scotty that post was for TPM, whatever works for you use it, but I too am Leary of trainers who constantly change based on the latest theory or discovery. 

I guess I look at it this way.  Any conditioning and strength program offered today is better than nothing.  Baseball did the same things from 1900 right up til when the 80's?  Maybe the last 10 or 15 years we have become serious about trying to discover exactly what it is that helps a baseball player?  Science keeps advancing and kinesthetics (I think thats what its called, I am certainly no doctor) is no exception.  I would be leery of those who don't change.  More fuys than ever throw 90+.  Hard to compare offensive numbers but hitters seem to be as good if not better at the same time pitchers are throwing harder.  I believe the focus on specific baseball workouts have helped.  Without a control group (and really what college or professional player would agree to no workout program) it is an impossible point to prove but it seems to pass the common sense test to me.  But in fairness I am a numbers guy.  A show me scientific data guy, and I am not sure we can do this here.  I will continue to error on the side of modern methods.

All I can say to deepees response is roflmao. 
Do you see those guys coming here for business?  No they have their own sites and pay big bucks for them.
And this is not a free advertising site.

Dang, spent the last hour reading this entire thread.  My dad once told me to listen to anyone that wants to talk baseball.  Take what you think will work, let the rest go.  The 'science' of the whole matter is to use what works best for you.  My son is a 20 year old college pitcher and has never had arm problems.  Therefore, if it's not broke don't fix it.  I had a hard time reading people downgrade each other.  Pro pitchers and hitters all got where they are from what 'they' believe works and stuck to it.  Parents, do what your kid thinks works and don't worry about what the 'instructors/gurus' say.  If his arm hurts, rest.  If he gets tired, run.  If he ices and it seems to relieve soreness, ice.  I played college baseball, am a Kinesiology major, and my philosophy is still whatever works for each kid.  Thanks for all of the opinions shared.  Good luck to all. 

While I understand the sentiment, there are a lot of guys out there who are doing things that "work for them..." until it doesn't and they're on a surgeons table.

Overthehill, that is all I have been trying to say but some people just are stubborn and want to sound so educated and up to date. And by the way TPM , I do have a website but I do not pay a lot of money. It is simply so people know a little about me and what I Can offer their kids. Sorry to disappoint. What ever works from the old, new or both. Your dad told you correct, and again sorry to offend anyone, just trying to help. Believe me I don't everything but I do know something. 

Root and DeePee, I wasn't trying to stir the pot. 

I have several concerns with simply saying 'whatever works'.  I must stipulate though that I like something structured and tangible so admittedly I would struggle with this type of approach.  Second how do we define 'works'?  Avoiding injury?  Being a successful hs pitcher?  College scholarship...  beyond?  If we just do what we have been doing (whatever that is) how do we know we didn't leave something on the table?   And for some people anything 'works'.  I went to school with a guy who pitched about 15 years in the majors.  One time 20 game winner.  He was great at every sport he played from a very early age.  Could have been a college scholarship quarterback and he was a great basketball player as well.  Basically he could roll out of bed and beat you.  I guess the question is how does that borderline guy give himself an advantage?  That's where I would welcome all new thoughts and research.  I am not saying many of the tried and true methods are bad but I am saying baseball coaches in general tend to be a little stubborn and unwilling to do the research necessary to stay up to date and remain open minded.  And that's just my observation.  I am not trying to be critical just having a conversation.

I tell kids only worry about what you can control, true, some coaches are dinosaurs, but don't place all coaches in the same boat. Whatever works from my angle, if it is research go with it, mixed with something from Mike MarsHal philosophy, go with it, mixed with Leo M theory, go with it, mixed with a nutritionist and fitness guru go for it. Whatever it takes to give you an edge and keep you mechanically, physically or mentally fit, go for it. Even good, fit, solid pitchers can wind up on a surgeons table so injury does not mean it was wrong 

Earlier someone said that it doesn't matter if the coach played minor league ball.  It does in most instances to me, and I would bet to others also.  I don't know how to coach baseball, so I would like to have relative certainty that the people that I pay good money too, at least played the sport at a high level.  My son has had coaches that played in AAA (The best hitting coach he has ever had.) AA - Pitching Coach & 2 of his Travel Team Coaches, and many former college players have coached him.  If a coach has played baseball in the minors, or in college, that adds to his resume and his credentials.  If a coach does not have any MILB or college experience, he would need to have good examples of his work.  (A good track record of results, or good word of mouth from someone that I trust.)  I am not saying that I would never pay someone for training that does not have the minor or college playing/coaching experience, but it definitely helps me to make a decision.