Lets Talk Pitching - Ask/Discussion about pitching from professional instructor

This was your first post.

This was your second post.

You referred to some of us as the stubborn majority.

That right there gave me a challenge to challenge.

 

In a discussion with son who plays baseball, the scenario is much different for a starter vs reliever. I understand that most HS players train as starters, but let me ask you a question and here is your challenge, how do YOU train pitchers, what plan do you lay out for them to do each day? Long distance running, sprints, poles, swim, weight training, agility excercises, yoga, etc (ask me if you don't understand what etc means.

 

Nolan Ryan demonstrated that you can have a long pitching career by having a consistent work out regimen.   In Nolan Ryan's Pitching Bible he talks about cardio part of his training and how it helped his stamina. 

 

I added 4 pages from his book where he mentions running, for what it's worth. 

 

 

Where did anyone say one should not run.  The issue is that pitching is not aerobic but anerobic and should incorporate training with that in mind.
BTW here is a story of two pitchers. One ran all the time one never did. Guess which guy went the distance almost every outing?
Every person is different. Just because it worked for one guy doesnt mean it will for the next.

I know what my first post was, I am new to the neighborhood and did jot know all of the website rules but once I found out, I will never make that mistake again Sir. TPM. With neighbors like you who would needs an enemy, do u always have to be right?

I've kind of stayed out of this latest round...part of the reason is because for some reason, anytime folks have differing experiences / opinions, it tends to get "chippy" in here, which I hope does not keep others from offering their valued opinions.

 

No doubt there are different ways to skin the cat, and not all sizes fit all.. In fact there are too many "gurus" out there that have put together a "one size fits all" program, and IMO especially for pitchers, there are too many robots out there trying to mimic certain "positions" that have been "scientifically" claimed to be the "proper" mechanics.  I agree there are to some degree, a certain amount of physical training, and mechanical efficiencies that are pretty much given, however I have seen too many "ex college / ex professional" pitchers that really know very little about the complex sequence of events that occur in pitching.  I have also seen many robotic / uncoordinated pitchers on the mound, where their " instructors" have coached the athleticism right out of them.

 

Full disclosure:  my bio on this site references myself as a pitching coach.  I am, however in college I was a position player.  What makes me think I can coach pitching, without a resume of ever stepping foot on the rubber in a high level baseball game?  I would venture a good guess, that I have spent more time, and much more money than most folks that ever read this site, to learn.  I have trained / learned in person with the the best in the business, folks that are referenced on this site by many:  Cressey, Nyman, Boddy, Mills, Wolforth, Wheeler,House... all of which I have the good fortune to have be introduced to, and spent time and resources to travel and learn. 

 

Having had the ability to spend time with these folks, I would not go as far as to say that I agree 100% with all they teach, in fact with some of it, I do not.  All this to say, that while none of us are arguing that the first edition of Windows is as good as the latest, we also know that technology / science as it relates to developing high level pitchers has also advanced, and to ignore that is cheating the pitchers that are being instructed.  Are there better ways of getting cardio than hitting the pavement, YES.  Are some constants the same as they were many years ago, YES.  Does one have to have pitched at a high level to understand, and teach it...NO.  There are some folks out there that are collecting $ from lessons that claim elite status as instructors, that are stealing from their clients....all behind the claim that they pitched in college, etc.....I think PG Staff has posted several times that some of the biggest thieves out there are the numerous claimed "Pitching Instructors"....it is really shameful. 

 

I think discussions like this are beneficial, although unless someone asks  specific questions, the more general ones tend to get off track, and lead to many disagreements.  Hopefully folks can weed through the personality conflicts, and take the differing advice, and form their own opinions.

DeePee,

 

Not to infringe on your discussion(s) with TPM, but He is a She.

well said again, back foot slider, you make a lot of valid points. I thought I was getting into a discussion as well but I felt I got ambushed because I made the cardinal mistake of solicting myself. However I have heard some very educated remarks from this forum. At the end of the day, the road to the big leagues or even playing at a D1 college is very competitive

Well my apologies again, I just feel TPM attacks all that seem to opposE but this is a discussion site

 

Back Foot Slider ,
Great post. Thank you.

Deepee,
You came here soliciting for biz and your resume included being a former pitcher.  I dont think that qualifies anyone for the job.  You completely ignored opinions of others.  FWIW from what I have learned no way would I pay anyone a dime who tells son the secret to longer outings is running.
No way even if I am not a sir!

And I am definetly stubborn!
By the way awaiting on your training for pitchers.
Just want to know if I would pay someone what I would expect?

I never claimed running will make you last longer, I said running should be apart of program whether it is treadmill or outside and I stand by it, you should and will do some running as a Professinal or collegiate player, so why not learn it and love it now.  

Running...as in...long distance?

I am starting to see why texting and discussion pages like this can become extinct. People seem to misinterpret your intentions. For all I have offended, my apologies, I will stick with race to face speaking. I am out of my element with this group. Again my apologies

No not long distance, sprints, dashes, 2 miles is good, if that is  considered long then yes. As a starter, a couple of miles should be good

Why would you bow out? I asked a question. What type of running program do you suggest for pitchers? 
BTW did you read where long distance running eventually  got to Ryan's knees and back?

I dont know where you ever thought no one said not to run. All pitchers run poles.
But the difference is running should not be the primary source for cardio.  I think that was the inpression that I got from your discussion.

       
       


To me (and I don't know where it comes from but I have a theory) this is where the anti running thing comes from. Pitching like any other single contraction activity is not anaerobic. It would only be anaerobic if you sprinted to the mound and then threw. Just like the start of a sprint is not anaerobic. It doesn't become anaerobic until your body is producing energy faster than you can take in oxygen. If the pitchers hands are on his knees trying to catch his breath them yes but as long as he has oxygen it's not anaerobic.

My theory as to where it comes from. It's comes from an illogical assuption. Pitching is explosive. In an explosive movement we use fast twitch muscles. Fast twitch muscles produce ATP anaerobicly. Then the assuption if it's explosive it's anaerobic. No. All muscle fibers use ATP and they don't know nor care how that ATP was formed. Fast twitch muscles will use ATP produced from slow twitch muscles. The rate at which your body produces the ATP has nothing to do with the contraction itself.

So why do we train explosively to increase explosion. Well it's said that the speed our muscle contracts is supposedly determined when forming. So basically your born with muscle contraction already at top speed. However the sequencing of the muscle contraction can theoretically be altered and made more efficient and therefore faster. We do that by doing explosive contractions. For the same reason your muscles will get stronger when put under stress. Your contraction sequence will get better under stress. Well in theory anyway.

Away point is. Using fast twitch muscle fibers does not make an activity anaerobic. Using the energy produced from fast twitch fibers does.

Oh and if you ask then why does a pitcher who's aerobicly fit fatigue. I don't know but theorize it's the same reason a pitcher who's anaerobicly fit does. Right now I would make the assuption it's from a number of things all added together with muscle damage being a primary culprit.

I train football players mostly and they don't deal with single contraction activities. They are mostly rapid multi-contraction. So it's different theory's. I have started studying on it quite a bit thought since the start of this discussion.

Regardless of a few of the little arguments in this thread I am very thankful for it. It has sparked my intrest in studying something different and made me re think the way I look at some things. To me that's about the best outcome one can have on a discussion board.

The one thing that disturbs me is the lack of discussion about core strength which is very valuable for strength not only pitchers but for all athletes even runners.  My impression is that this is very important when organizations look to draft players. How well will a pitcher hold up for the season may be determined by considering core strength not how many miles the pitcher runs.

My interpretation bt deepee was that to be a better pitcher one must go back to the lost art of running.

Just sayin.....

Deepee you have a dialoge

Wow.

 

I'm not even through the first page of responses and I have to get involved.

 

Let me first say, I am very wary of pitching instructors, especially those selling something.  Especially an increase in velocity.  It is my opinion that other than a year round schedule, it is no accident that every kid can hop on the internet and get 5 different guys pushing some kind of system to increase their velocity and suddenly 10 years ago, Tommy John surgery and injuries start to skyrocket.

 

@JH,  You can make a scientific study say anything you like.  I am also the cross country coach for our high school, running in general helps overall conditioning so I 100% completely disagree.  This does not however mean that my pitchers run 3 miles a day at practice.  Pitching is using fast twitch muscles, running doesn't but does help keep you in shape.  Running in general strengthens your core, which is extremely important for pitcher.   We have several cross country runners who were by far our best pitchers and a couple of years ago maybe  the top pitcher in the district was a runner.

 

You also mentioned ice being bad.  I've read that study with my school's very good trainer and she laughed.

 

Weighted baseballs are useless.  We had a nearby coach, go through one of the programs with weighted balls and it caused problems and only half of his kids gained any velocity.  The other half had injury issues.

This comment was made I believe by JH that his son trained with the track team sprinters.   Ask that coach how many races he runs in a meet.  Maybe the 100, 200 and 4x100.  If his runner was running 20 competitive 100 sprints with a short amount of time between each one.  I guarantee you, he would have his runners run at least some distance.

 

So considering this is about pitching.  Should I only have my pitcher throw, 30 pitches in the bullpen as hard as he can with rest in between since pitching is explosive.

So, you can make a scientific study say anything you like? Not really. You, instead would just take the word of your schools "very good trainer" as the definitive word on icing and ONE coach's experience with weighted balls in ONE program as the definitve answer on weighted balls? I think I'll ignore your trainer and go with the science and I'll ignore your one weighted ball study and go with both my experience and the experience of several other credible coaches who have had fantastic velocity increases with weighted balls. As to long distance running, I'll likewise go with those pesky scientific studies. 

If half the kids gained velocity from weighted ball program I would say that constitutes a tremendous success.

That's fine. When 8 kids work with weighted balls and only 4 show any improvement in velocity with the average increase is 3mph and the one kid who improves 5mph is a second year sophomore pitcher who likely gained more growing and maturing. It is not worth the 3 players who gained nothing because they started having injury issues in a program that rarely has injuries.

 

Believe what you wish, it makes no difference to me.   There is a problem when you start taking a scientific study as the absolute truth and discarding tried and true coaching methods that have achieved pitchers who throw hard with sound repeatable safe mechanics.  Its also another way to justify how good your kid should be when he steps out on the field and is robotic and unathletic because he has been over coached and rarely gets on the field because he is not effective.  You know this parent. The one that says: coach I don't understand why johnny isn't pitching in more games, we spent the entire summer and fall with thus pitching instructor who says scientifically his mechanics are perfect.  To which my response was maybe he needs to find some new science because in 4 innings total work he has walked 4 batters, hit two and given up 4 hits plus making a throwing error on a bunt.

@ roothog

 

I'll ignore the 5% of trainers that are trying to make a name for themselves and listen to the other 95%

I too will give the weighted ball training  

 

 

and long distance running for pitchers/baseball players a 

 

 

 

After finally getting to read every post on this subject I think stats4gnats expresses the truth of the matter, everyone is different and is effected by training different ways. I think age is also an issue in this discussion. As for my pitchers those who have been runner tend to focus more on explosive activities while those who are not tend to work more on getting in shape and doing some distance running.

 

You guys who love these pitching gurus need to watch a little Pedro Martinez on mlb now in the last 2 nights has done a wonderful job explaining good mechanics, and compared Matt Harvey and Stephen Strasburg tonight, excellent job showing strasburgs problems.

@ several posters

 

So icing is bad but setting in an ice bath or taking a cold shower to help sooth micro tears is good. Hypocrite.

 

Now I do have a pitching question if anyone is left to answer.

 

My pitchers timing has disappeared, I noticed we were having some issues in a drll holding their follow through. After some video I've noticed that not only are they rotating their hips and shoulders at the same something I call stepping out but at foot plant our arms are at all kinds of different positions and some have started their hip turn earlier. I've already tried everything I know so I was wondering if there were any drills you suggest.  

I think many people have velocity gains from various methods up to around 85 mph.  Below this speed, lots of kids may have had poor/no training, no/little conditioning, need muscle mass, etc. and can make rapid gains.

 

When a method starts starts getting consistent/repeatable speeds beyond 85 or so for many pitchers, that's when it gets interesting.

 

BTW, today I don't think icing or ice baths are good for ligaments. I could be wrong.  My kid doesn't routinely ice and has never had any elbow troubles, even though he throws lots of innings/pitches.  Time will tell.

Sull, well,  if you're suggesting that all of your pitchers should be in the same "mechanical position" and same "arm slot" at foot plant, rotation and follow through, I find that to be very cookie cutterish type teaching.  

 

Maybe if you explained a little more.  Have they lost velocity, accuracy or both?  Each pitcher is unique, just like each hitter, no two are going to be thesame

       
       
I am confused.  On the one hand it seems that you want all your pitchers to have the same mechanics and on the other you don't want them to be the same...  as for hips opening early hips should open before shoulders.  Agree with lefthooked probably not enough information here.  As for weighted balls this is one I continue to follow.  Haven't made up my mind yet.  But I know for sure when I do it will be because of science and research not long used and often incorrect coaching methods.  And certainly not because of what some former pro ballplayer says as my experience with most of those is they don't work very hard to understand the mechanics of the game.  That is MY experience.  Not saying all former pro instructors are that way.

  sul - "My pitchers timing has disappeared, I noticed we were having some issues in a drill holding their follow through. After some video I've noticed that not only are they rotating their hips and shoulders at the same something I call stepping out but at foot plant our arms are at all kinds of different positions and some have started their hip turn earlier. I've already tried everything I know so I was wondering if there were any drills you suggest."

 

Not sure I understand completely what the issues are, however one thing that always stands out to me with regards to "drills".  The pitching delivery is several body movement patterns sequenced into ball release.  Many drills do not translate due to the movement pattern that happens before or after the drill.  In other words perfecting "one" movement pattern does not always translate into the pitching sequences, if what is happening before or after does not support it.

 

Many times when the hips and the shoulders rotate at the same time (zero hip/shoulder separation) is due to the front leg / hip being dominant.  Pitching is VERY similar to hitting....the front side is to stabilize, while the back hip rotates going into foot plant.  If the front hip opens, then everything goes with it.  Arm action is also directly related to the action or inaction of the hips.  Fix the hips, and you likely fix the arm action.  In pitching & hitting you want the rotation more similar to a swinging hinged gate, rather than a revolving door.

 

Lastly, you mentioned being able to hold their follow through.  Unless they are unable to brace the front leg into ball release, I would not coach the follow through...it is very unique to each individual, and a non-teach.

http://www.topvelocity.net/top...-pitchers/#more-8745

 

Interesting pictures showing recommended pitching technique to reduce injury. 

Yes. 

 

tpm is not a sir.

 

Sent you a dialogue

Some good stuff here, but also some old school stuff that has no scientific merit and a headscratcher or two:

 

"Stick to Strict Pitch Counts if You Throw Over 85mph Consistently" - little confused as to the qualifier.

 

"Avoid Throwing Many Breaking Pitches. Work to Throw Around 80-90% Fastballs and Change-Ups." - It's a continuing argument, I guess, but I think I've made my position clear on this one more than once.

 

"Avoid Using Anti-Inflammatory Drugs. Icing is Better Than these Drugs. Do not Ice More than 12 Minutes On. - I used to use ibuprofin instead of ice, but after being nudged to do some research from someone on here, I came to the conclusion that this statement is correct. However, I also now believe doing nothing is better than icing. Icing is great for bruises and swelling but bad for recovery. I bought a MarcPro a few months ago and my son now uses that for post-pitching and the results have been nothing short of remarkable. No soreness and quick muscle recovery.

 

I also noted that a couple of the advised mechanics are, indeed, better mechanics for velocity, but I don't beliebe I've ever seen any indication that they have any relation to UCL health.

Hips open at foot plant=good , Shoulders open to a varying degree at

foot plant = bad .    Old News.     So after a couple of innings their arms are done because they are only using their arms.

 

Just looking for some drills that might help.  I'm not going to argue with anyone over drills.

 

This has not been a problem in the past and has crept in somewhere since last hs baseball season. 

 

I very much feel there are several mechanical issues that are  healthy and "correct" (I really hate using that word).  Other than that I try to encourage "natural" movements and work anything we see that could cause physical issues.  Other than that we have a good degree of differences among our guys.

 

No real drop in velocity, until after a couple of innings.

 

 

 

 

Hip turn early or hip turn late - I know there is a lot of school of thought on the issue - I think is inconsequential as long as upper trunk rotation (internal arm rotation) is properly sequenced. As long as the hips are open at footstrike (regardless of how they got open) it's time to look at the shoulders. They should not begin rotation until footstrike. This can be hard with younger pitchers and you get what you describe - arms going all over the place. My suggestion is that once you get the hips open at footstrike, experiment with mechanics that hold the shoulders and arm back until the proper time. I've had success with delaying handbreak and wrapping the throwing arm down and behind the butt.

Icing - I'm not hypocritical. I don't believe ice baths have any use either. Slowing blood circulation can not possibly help in the recovery of damaged ligaments and tissue. For purposes of decreasing swelling, ice is proper. However, slight swelling associated with muscle use (say after working out or after pitching) isn't a problem that needs to be dealt with. Inflammation is our body's natural way of increasing blood flow and a major part of the recovery process. However, for something like an actual strain or sprain (actual injury vs. soreness) where relieving the swelling is more important than muscle recovery, by all means use ice.

Anybody who would use the word hypocrite to describe anywone's position on icing is either trying to start a flame war or doesn't know the meaning of the word.