Order a scout today, be there tomorrow???

bacdorslider posted:

Are parents so lost in this process that they cannot compare their player to teammates , opponents, high school coaches , travel coaches and get a pretty good idea ? 

I think this comment is the source of my concern for this type of program.  For a parent that educates themselves and works diligently at avoiding the rose colored glasses, the assessment of current and projected skill level is not too terribly difficult.  Assuming a kid needs instruction, one needs to find competent instruction and seek realistic feedback.  Once the rose colored glasses are put on, this type of program will be sought after by parents who have a preconceived notion that their kid is better that he is credited with and wants some ammunition.  These parents will not take kindly to a poor assessment (therein lies the need for the prepaid arrangement).  These scouts may have a tremendous amount a knowledge and experience that they can apply, but I think that value lies in the higher levels (maybe a discussion about what it would take to get drafted high enough to forego college, as an example) and not at the lower levels (what is the development plan for my soft body, soft throwing 12u so as to make the freshman team as an 8th grader).

My idea would be for some average folks to sit with the parent during the double header and have that parent describe how their kid stacks up to all the other players.  For $200, the parent will get a development report on what steps they need to take to begin their return journey to reality so as they might actually be able to assist little Johnny in reaching their goals.  The program would completely ignore the kid in question and simply focus on the parent(s) as well as document any and all paid advisers who have been brought on board.  I would love for Goosegg to take a crack at how that letter might read.  

4seamer posted:

bacdorslider posted:

Go back to the numbers of how many players are actually playing D1 ball , minor league ball let alo e mlb , its a very small percentage. All the camps, lessons , advice, evals are not going to get you there. Talent , raw talent , athletic body,  work ethic .  Dont call use, we'll call you

True. At the same time, we like to think there is a fit in the collegiate ranks for anyone who really wants to play. That's not true, of course, but for the complimentary player hoping to get a pro contract one day NAIA is heaven if if he can't get to D1. Hope is hope. Right?

I agree with you... I think from your post that you are honest and want to do right be the players.  So many others are just out for a buck, telling parents what they want to hear.... IF you give an honest eval and explain to parents WHy the chances are not good for D1 ball( for instance) but chances are good to play NAIA, D3, D2, Juco and explain to them the huge benefits of playing college athletics at any level then yes I think you have a genuine product.  

Now my 2013 was not a D1 player in high school, after two years of Juco he was.    

Some folks dont have a clue and neither do their HS coaches. They cant afford expensive camps or showcases or travel teams. Not everyone knows about tje HSBBW.

There is a lot of hidden talent out there, even in hot spots. 

Well, there has been a little confusion...

4seamer states on pg 1 that, on demand, a parent can pay for an evaluation of sons' ability, talent, tools... his target market is 13-14 (baseline eval) & up. Not looking to impact recruiting, but to impact retention in the game & education for parents (development path). That they "only do evaluating"..."identify tools, project, then measure against the players ultimate goal to then formulate a development plan". 

Then on pg 2, 4seamers' responses allude to NAIA, & 10th rd draft as viable...

So, I'm interpreting this venture as a recruiting service...that is trying to capitalize on "100% vetted pro scouts that have 3-20+ yrs experience... that the industry is not using. 

There you have it folks...

Edited to add...

Yes, there is a need for parents to learn how their kid stacks up & what options are available at all levels...Maybe we ought to do a little bit more to get the word out about this site...to coaches & league admins from LL to Legion to Travel to HS. Maybe we need to update some of the articles, resources here to place more emphasis on levels other than D-1...

Our youth baseball league sponsored an open forum for parents and players - ages 5 through 14. The local NAIA HC (now the HC of UA) and a former MILB pitcher drafted out of HS were featured. The object was to give the audience the lay of the land over the horizon; for parents of young players, the focus was HS; for older players it was HS and beyond.

No evaluations; it was purely informational. In an hour and a half, the audience received an overview of the processes, problems, pitfalls - and most importantly - handouts where a parent could go to explore in depth the process (because in the beginning, the lack of knowledge is so formidable, it seems impossible to learn).

The cost was zero; the information priceless and, in hindsight, accurate beyond belief.

As I understand this proposed service, it will make evaluations which may or may not differ from a reputable baseball service like PG. The advantage is to get the evaluation, your kid will be evaluated in a game - as opposed to an expensive showcase, and the cost will be less (how much is unknown). So, e.g., instead of running with 100 kids, seeing their times posted, the kid will run the ball out in a game and get his time. (Back in the day, I think NIKE created a skill testing system. The results of hundreds of players were posted online, freely sortable in multiple categories. You could see where your kid stood in relation with every player in the country who took these tests.)

Will these evaluators use their contacts to reach out to schools; to scouts; to instructors; to nutritionists; to travel ball organizations? Will these evaluators insinuate themselves early (because we're talking 13 - 14 yr olds) so they become "advisors" to the kids with pro potential? What will be cross-sold? What will the parent who purchased the evaluation be told when asking for a coaching, travel team, showcase recommendation? (Or is this like the crazy life-lock commercials hightlighting the difference between a passive monitor of credit and a service which takes action.)

What is the track history - other then a resume; in other words, if the goal is to evaluate the player and create a reasonable workable plan to reach potential, what is the track record of success? It looks to me that it would take at least 5 years before a track record can be uncovered - who are the Guinea pigs? Speaking from my experience, there are lots of "experts" in various facets of baseball - amateur and pro - but very few with a track record - apart from employment history.

No question parents could use dispassionate cheap advice. But most of that advice can actually come right from the same parent as they educate themselves on the process. 

2020dad posted:

Let me clear something up here.  I assume the scam comment was directed at me.  I apologize my posts were a bit long so perhaps you didnt really read them.  But I said it was a scam at a certain price point.  I took very seriously my advice to 4seamer and made many suggestions on how this could be a useful and relevant service.  Even saying I would be a paying customer at a much higher price point with much more value built in.  I am giving him sincere advice and begged him NOT to take advantage of the naive hopeful.  My hope is he will do this the right way and it WON'T be a scam.  But at $150 or something similar it will be a scam pure and simple.  No reputable MLB scout is going to do this for that amount and then hand whatever percentage over to the owner operator.  

P.S. there is a place for anyone with any ability at all.  There are D3's everywhere willing to trade a uniform for tuition.

A little more about the service. We've been conducting case studies for going on a year. The price point is significantly lower than $1k, but higher than $150. The average professional scout makes about $1k per day in showcase events where they 'throw a net' on the field to try and write up as many players they - or the set event standards they are working for - feel are worthy. But you typically get blurbs... not an evaluation. We have been approached by numerous tournament circuits to provide scouts and declined them all as we wish to remain a true third-party evaluation service. One day it is possible someone like PG or BF or someone else will approach us - I don't know.

2020dad, you're correct - no scout is going to get up and drive to a local high school field at 4:00 to watch BP and fielding/bullpen practice, then watch the 6:00 game, and then go home 2 - 3 hours later and write up a detailed discussion or short form on a player for $150. They just spent 5 - 7 hours including travel time for this client. We've also been finding parents prefer their children to be seen on Sunday of tournament days. Those days become very, very long for a scout, many times sitting around for hours waiting for games to be played.

And remember, the scout is following only the client. Nobody else. He watches that player from the time he gets to the field to the time the player leaves the field. One-on-one.

As for this being a scam, perhaps some folks will think so. They thought that of BF and other groups when they started too. We believe we're heading in the right direction and with input from folks like on this board, we hope to only get better and better.

Goosegg, you are batting 1000! 

4seamer, perhaps Gov has the right of this.  I can't see the value of this type of product, but my kid goes to a 7A sized school and I live 10 minutes from East Cobb and 30 minutes from Lakepoint in Georgia. 

We have over a dozen academies here and multiple "national" teams.  If I lived in Podunk USA where you have to drive an hour to get to some decent baseball perhaps there would be a market for this service, but I don't see it being appealing where I live.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

bacdorslider posted:

Are parents so lost in this process that they cannot compare their player to teammates , opponents, high school coaches , travel coaches and get a pretty good idea ? 

... For a parent that educates themselves and works diligently at avoiding the rose colored glasses, the assessment of current and projected skill level is not too terribly difficult. 

...These parents will not take kindly to a poor assessment (therein lies the need for the prepaid arrangement).  These scouts may have a tremendous amount a knowledge and experience that they can apply, but I think that value lies in the higher levels (maybe a discussion about what it would take to get drafted high enough to forego college, as an example) and not at the lower levels (what is the development plan for my soft body, soft throwing 12u so as to make the freshman team as an 8th grader). 

Many of the parents we meet felt the same way - they believed they had a good handle on the true projection of their child. We've found - so far - 90% of them to be incorrect. In fact, we've read many 'scouting' reports from 'trusted advisers' in their development camps and, as you may guess, there is quite a bit of misclassification.

Can a soft body 12u player be projected? To some degree, I suppose. But, why would we want to do that? Instead, at age 13 on the bigger field we would look at the tool set the player currently had and create a development plan for the child to help him grow his tools. His blueprint for success, if you will. 

baseballmom posted:

Well, there has been a little confusion...

4seamer states on pg 1 that, on demand, a parent can pay for an evaluation of sons' ability, talent, tools... his target market is 13-14 (baseline eval) & up. Not looking to impact recruiting, but to impact retention in the game & education for parents (development path). That they "only do evaluating"..."identify tools, project, then measure against the players ultimate goal to then formulate a development plan". 

Then on pg 2, 4seamers' responses allude to NAIA, & 10th rd draft as viable...

So, I'm interpreting this venture as a recruiting service...that is trying to capitalize on "100% vetted pro scouts that have 3-20+ yrs experience... that the industry is not using. 

Not a recruiting service, not a development service. An evaluation service - assessing future athletic ability and measuring that assessment against the player's ultimate goal to provide a blueprint (plan) for success.

CaCO3Girl posted:

4seamer, perhaps Gov has the right of this.  I can't see the value of this type of product, but my kid goes to a 7A sized school and I live 10 minutes from East Cobb and 30 minutes from Lakepoint in Georgia. 

We have over a dozen academies here and multiple "national" teams.  If I lived in Podunk USA where you have to drive an hour to get to some decent baseball perhaps there would be a market for this service, but I don't see it being appealing where I live.

You are in the area that we believe we will have outstanding growth in. 

Ok 4seam as has already been mentioned you didn't come on here like some and hard sell your product. That's cool. So it seems you are using us as a focus group - that's very smart cause we are all parents of serious players - different talent levels but all serious. This is a great place for feedback. So you are doing the right things. I am still struggling to see the benefit. I feel like I have a pretty good handle on my son's potential.  So the product probably isn't for me. And we will continue to work to beat our own estimate no matter what we or others think his ceiling to be. But since you have taken all this very professionally- and thanks for that - I will open the door for you. I will not be walking through it at least at this point but I will open the door!  So what is the name of your business and do you have a website?  I think you at this point have earned the right to post it here!

There are many players and parents who need help getting an honest evaluation from a neutral qualified source.  There is certainly a need and a market and properly culled ex-scouts would certainly qualify. 

However, I don't agree that the premise is to keep players playing the game.  Let's call a spade a spade.  If they have made it to 13, 14, 15 and have a skill set that gives them a chance at college ball or beyond, they don't need to be talked into continuing play, they need to be given that assessment so that they know what realistic college level to target based on their tools and projections.  Yeah, a plan is fine but they typically know what their strengths and weaknesses are, they just need to know where their likely fit is.   

There is certainly a fair supply of qualified individuals (combined with resources like HSBBW) that would be willing to provide that assessment at little or no cost.  There is also a fair supply of training facilities that would do the same for a nominal cost, far less than the likely $500-$750 we're talking about here.  

That said, if a parent doesn't want to do a little leg work and/or feels this route would be the best bet for a truly qualified assessment, and they have the extra money, then go for it.  

I understand the idea of attending the games but if a decent local instructor did a short on-field evaluation and asked a few coaches about the kid's game make-up, much of the same conclusions will be drawn almost every time.  Those local guys are often willing to attend a game or two as well and, in fact, probably have already seen the kid play.

It always blows me away how many parents are willing to spend thousands when they can utilize resources like HSBBW and learn to target their plan so that they can save a huge portion of those thousands - FOR FREE, yet they just won't take the time to do that.

I guess if you have it and want to spend it that way, who am I to say otherwise.  On the surface, I have no problem with 4seamer's model.  I can, however, imagine some interesting parent-group-at-game discussion when they find out that Jimmy 13U's dad is paying a pro scout to personally follow and assess him. 

Cabbage that is a great point i never even thought thought of. Talk about being 'that dad' and the abuse it would bring the kid...

I'm guessing the $500-750 thrown out by CABBAGE is not far off the mark (Based on OP saying significantly less than $1k but more than $150).  Also wanted to point out some earlier posts by OP wherein he stated that the tools would be viewed/measured in game situation and not in a showcase format.  The OP supports the price point saying that the scout can end up spending 5-7 hours with travel time and pre-game activity (BP - hope they are not taking BP in the "barn" or the coach runs them off).  I am not the biggest fan of showcasing, but I'd take a showcase at $1K over a $750 hit-or-miss date every time.  The opportunity to present a development plan after watching a single game sound bogus.  Say the kid plays can't decide between infield, outfield, catching or pitching and gets stuck in RF during the game and never sees the ball (I refer you to GOOSEGG's comments about throws to the warm up kid).

If you followed 3 kids and charged a total of $750, then maybe it might start to make sense to me (I do not have more money than I know what to do with).  Besides, the scout will probably spend 5% of the actual time watching an individual kid's activities.  Heaven forbid he gets bored and misses the fly ball that the kid doesn't have to move for (again, no one on base but the scout will "project" how well he might throw out a runner at home).  The service does have value, but that value IMO (and based on how I would choose to spend my money) comes nowhere close at $750 and not real close at $500.

2020dad posted:

Cabbage that is a great point i never even thought thought of. Talk about being 'that dad' and the abuse it would bring the kid...

I don't think it would be any worse than the kid that has 4 private lessons a week....oh and he's still not in the line up.

2020dad posted:

Cabbage that is a great point i never even thought thought of. Talk about being 'that dad' and the abuse it would bring the kid...

Oh, yes,  It's real...the infamous "I Heard Club"...

2017LHPscrewball posted:

I'm guessing the $500-750 thrown out by CABBAGE is not far off the mark (Based on OP saying significantly less than $1k but more than $150).  Also wanted to point out some earlier posts by OP wherein he stated that the tools would be viewed/measured in game situation and not in a showcase format.  The OP supports the price point saying that the scout can end up spending 5-7 hours with travel time and pre-game activity (BP - hope they are not taking BP in the "barn" or the coach runs them off).  I am not the biggest fan of showcasing, but I'd take a showcase at $1K over a $750 hit-or-miss date every time.  The opportunity to present a development plan after watching a single game sound bogus.  Say the kid plays can't decide between infield, outfield, catching or pitching and gets stuck in RF during the game and never sees the ball (I refer you to GOOSEGG's comments about throws to the warm up kid).

If you followed 3 kids and charged a total of $750, then maybe it might start to make sense to me (I do not have more money than I know what to do with).  Besides, the scout will probably spend 5% of the actual time watching an individual kid's activities.  Heaven forbid he gets bored and misses the fly ball that the kid doesn't have to move for (again, no one on base but the scout will "project" how well he might throw out a runner at home).  The service does have value, but that value IMO (and based on how I would choose to spend my money) comes nowhere close at $750 and not real close at $500.

Concur... I don't think they're considering what parents would really pay to give it a shot.  More than $200-250 it misses the mark, they need to revamp their assumptions for the financial model.  There are clueless parents, but they'll be asking for feedback from other parents that have a clue before they cut a check.  They need to utilize the previously tenured scout who is fairly local, and semi retired and looking for supplemental income.  This guy still has the eye for tools and is dialed into the applicable collegiate levels a kid could possibly play.

At a high price I wouldn't be an investor in the model.  Been there done that... 

As one living in Podunk, USA I could certainly see the value of something like this.  It doesn't sound like the purpose is to get your kid recruited or noticed.  Not specifically.  It is to give him an actionable plan to put himself i a position to be a varsity starter and potential college player.  I can't see paying $500 or more for something like that but probably because I couldn't afford it.  At least not when he was at an age where it would have made sense.  As a junior in high school it might be a bit late for something like this.  My son has done a couple of PBR showcases and the evaluations seem to be more oriented toward a scout than to the kid/family.  Here is his build/metrics/how he throws the ball.   I know that a quality instructor can probably do the same thing but 1) they don't come watch your kid perform in a game and 2) many parents don't know which ones are the quality ones.  Maybe that is unique to my area. 

LivingtheDream posted:

As one living in Podunk, USA I could certainly see the value of something like this.  It doesn't sound like the purpose is to get your kid recruited or noticed.  Not specifically.  It is to give him an actionable plan to put himself i a position to be a varsity starter and potential college player.  I can't see paying $500 or more for something like that but probably because I couldn't afford it.  At least not when he was at an age where it would have made sense.  As a junior in high school it might be a bit late for something like this.  My son has done a couple of PBR showcases and the evaluations seem to be more oriented toward a scout than to the kid/family.  Here is his build/metrics/how he throws the ball.   I know that a quality instructor can probably do the same thing but 1) they don't come watch your kid perform in a game and 2) many parents don't know which ones are the quality ones.  Maybe that is unique to my area. 

Price is still the driver... 

I'm still stuck on the single game theory (along with BP of course - assuming the scout is actually allowed to saunter up close).  Many folks have said showcases can be hit or miss and that you can squander your money if you have an off day.  At least you'll have X amount of reps fielding and X amounts of AB's as well as getting your speed measured both running and throwing.  Moving to the "one game" approach, what if you get 2 AB (maybe you get HBP on one of them) and never truly sprint down the line to first (no real measurement of foot speed - check).  In the OF, assume you never got a ball with anyone attempting to advance (no real measurement of arm speed - check...unless the scout tells the kid to go 100% during warm ups and of course zero true fielding reps).  I've heard nothing about any video of the game action (assuming there is some action to capture in the first place).  Just think about the 25% dullest games your kid has played (please ignore if your kid plays SS or catcher) and tell me whether that performance gave any real indication of what skills were present and which skills were lacking in order to provide an appropriate development plan within 24 hours (I'll assume there is a 24 hour turnaround guarantee as the scout can probably write the plan on site between innings).

If this is a $250 product, it probably cannot deliver what has been proposed.  If it is $750, then it is overpriced and had better have a refund policy if the kid doesn't get at least 3 plate appearances and 2 fielding opportunities with runners on base.  

What if, for $250, a scout can review up to 2 hours of edited video which gets taken over the course of 10-12 games with the caveat that all action. good and bad, get presented along with BP.  

I really just don't get the approach and its inherent shortcomings and am beginning to talk myself into thinking $250 might still be a gamble.

When we conducted the White Sox Area Code tryouts at Notre Dame, one of the White Sox scouts said "I heard you can evaluate a hitters swing over the telephone".

Yes, I said use a wood bat and place a tee next to the phone and I can listen to the sound.

TRUE STORY.

Bob

Screwball to tag on the other thing I can't help but wonder is this just an entry level product used as the hook for all sorts of instruction and gizmos etc.  at $250 or even $400 I just don't see the long term profitability.  

Consultant posted:

When we conducted the White Sox Area Code tryouts at Notre Dame, one of the White Sox scouts said "I heard you can evaluate a hitters swing over the telephone".

Yes, I said use a wood bat and place a tee next to the phone and I can listen to the sound.

TRUE STORY.

Bob

I think I know which Bob this is. I heard a similar story on the West Coast a few years ago - I wonder if it is the same story. haha  That's good stuff.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

I'm still stuck on the single game theory (along with BP of course - assuming the scout is actually allowed to saunter up close).  Many folks have said showcases can be hit or miss and that you can squander your money if you have an off day.  At least you'll have X amount of reps fielding and X amounts of AB's as well as getting your speed measured both running and throwing.  Moving to the "one game" approach, what if you get 2 AB (maybe you get HBP on one of them) and never truly sprint down the line to first (no real measurement of foot speed - check).  In the OF, assume you never got a ball with anyone attempting to advance (no real measurement of arm speed - check...unless the scout tells the kid to go 100% during warm ups and of course zero true fielding reps).  I've heard nothing about any video of the game action (assuming there is some action to capture in the first place).  Just think about the 25% dullest games your kid has played (please ignore if your kid plays SS or catcher) and tell me whether that performance gave any real indication of what skills were present and which skills were lacking in order to provide an appropriate development plan within 24 hours (I'll assume there is a 24 hour turnaround guarantee as the scout can probably write the plan on site between innings).

If this is a $250 product, it probably cannot deliver what has been proposed.  If it is $750, then it is overpriced and had better have a refund policy if the kid doesn't get at least 3 plate appearances and 2 fielding opportunities with runners on base.  

What if, for $250, a scout can review up to 2 hours of edited video which gets taken over the course of 10-12 games with the caveat that all action. good and bad, get presented along with BP.  

I really just don't get the approach and its inherent shortcomings and am beginning to talk myself into thinking $250 might still be a gamble.

Love the idea of filming, especially AB's and BP. That's a strong idea, but not one we're likely to follow. For instance, IMO there are a few - and I do mean few - outstanding hitting instructors out there that do this already and I think it would be more likely we propose a weaker hitter to go see them. Ernie Rosseau immediately comes to mind.

We don't shoot video. We can shoot video but we're not a showcase processing arm. Nor do we have to voice acquisition opinions upstairs... we are the upstairs. 

If we can't get a good read on a player during the event, we'll come back out. 

2020dad posted:

Screwball to tag on the other thing I can't help but wonder is this just an entry level product used as the hook for all sorts of instruction and gizmos etc.  at $250 or even $400 I just don't see the long term profitability.  

No hooks, no gizmos - just scouting. 

Gov posted:

LivingtheDream posted:

As one living in Podunk, USA I could certainly see the value of something like this.  It doesn't sound like the purpose is to get your kid recruited or noticed.  Not specifically.  It is to give him an actionable plan to put himself i a position to be a varsity starter and potential college player.  I can't see paying $500 or more for something like that but probably because I couldn't afford it.  At least not when he was at an age where it would have made sense.  As a junior in high school it might be a bit late for something like this.  My son has done a couple of PBR showcases and the evaluations seem to be more oriented toward a scout than to the kid/family.  Here is his build/metrics/how he throws the ball.   I know that a quality instructor can probably do the same thing but 1) they don't come watch your kid perform in a game and 2) many parents don't know which ones are the quality ones.  Maybe that is unique to my area. 

Price is still the driver... 

Absolutely.  In my town a 30 minute private lesson runs $40-50.  Depending on the coach.  If it's more cost effective to test a couple of different coaches people will do that instead.   But I think the overall idea is probably good.  There are several different facilities opening here that are workout/training focused.  And as I'm sure you can all imagine people are eating it up.  Partnering with one of these facilities would probably be a good source of business for both. 

4 seamer,

same story, scout was Joe Butler and Duane Schaeffer.

Bob Williams

founder Area Code games

Consultant posted:

4 seamer,

same story, scout was Joe Butler and Duane Schaeffer.

Bob Williams

founder Area Code games

I think I heard the story from scout Rod Fridley. Thought that was you Bob. I spoke with a Rays East Coast guy you know about a younger invite this year. Kid wouldn't have made it off the practice field but nice to know he listened.

I'd love to see Jr. Scout teams - help me get it done. Too many young pups taking roster spaces on scout teams - we need a professional avenue outside of TUSA for the 14-16u class kids to show off outside of pricey tournament circuits. Clubs should go for it - they have an interest in selling season tickets from a fan base that falls in love with them for helping to promote their child. Plus, its - get ready for it - goodwill.  hahaha

4seamer posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

I'm still stuck on the single game theory (along with BP of course - assuming the scout is actually allowed to saunter up close).  Many folks have said showcases can be hit or miss and that you can squander your money if you have an off day.  At least you'll have X amount of reps fielding and X amounts of AB's as well as getting your speed measured both running and throwing.  Moving to the "one game" approach, what if you get 2 AB (maybe you get HBP on one of them) and never truly sprint down the line to first (no real measurement of foot speed - check).  In the OF, assume you never got a ball with anyone attempting to advance (no real measurement of arm speed - check...unless the scout tells the kid to go 100% during warm ups and of course zero true fielding reps).  I've heard nothing about any video of the game action (assuming there is some action to capture in the first place).  Just think about the 25% dullest games your kid has played (please ignore if your kid plays SS or catcher) and tell me whether that performance gave any real indication of what skills were present and which skills were lacking in order to provide an appropriate development plan within 24 hours (I'll assume there is a 24 hour turnaround guarantee as the scout can probably write the plan on site between innings).

If this is a $250 product, it probably cannot deliver what has been proposed.  If it is $750, then it is overpriced and had better have a refund policy if the kid doesn't get at least 3 plate appearances and 2 fielding opportunities with runners on base.  

What if, for $250, a scout can review up to 2 hours of edited video which gets taken over the course of 10-12 games with the caveat that all action. good and bad, get presented along with BP.  

I really just don't get the approach and its inherent shortcomings and am beginning to talk myself into thinking $250 might still be a gamble.

Love the idea of filming, especially AB's and BP. That's a strong idea, but not one we're likely to follow. For instance, IMO there are a few - and I do mean few - outstanding hitting instructors out there that do this already and I think it would be more likely we propose a weaker hitter to go see them. Ernie Rosseau immediately comes to mind.

We don't shoot video. We can shoot video but we're not a showcase processing arm. Nor do we have to voice acquisition opinions upstairs... we are the upstairs. 

If we can't get a good read on a player during the event, we'll come back out. 

My comment about filming was not necessarily a suggestion for the program but more of a indicator that a sufficient amount of "action" might require a review of 10-12 games to get the necessary combinations of player and plays (i.e. how many times does RF try to throw someone out at 3B or HP).  I realize your group could not be tasked with filming 10-12 games and having the parent do this is probably unrealistic also.  

I will throw out a question here as it relates to filming/video - I have seen countless suggestions/recomendations on this site about putting together video to assist in college recruiting.  On this site you can find pretty detailed suggestions on what to film, how to film and how to edit as well as how to package (there seems to be some minor disagreement as it relates to background music) including measurables and/or links to same.  There has not been a tremendous amount of push for a kid to capture game film for this purpose.  My question - how would you compare a standard recruiting video to on-site game review?  My only request is that the frequency (or lack thereof) be addressed and whether college coaches incorporate some concept of development (apart from projection) when they are looking at some 15yo's video (coach tells the kid they like what they see but would like to see more evidence of hitting development over the summer - as an example).

If "live" action is in fact superior to "showcase" action then do we need to rethink what content we put in the video we use for recruiting?

2017LHPscrewball posted:

I have seen countless suggestions/recomendations on this site about putting together video to assist in college recruiting.  On this site you can find pretty detailed suggestions on what to film, how to film and how to edit as well as how to package (there seems to be some minor disagreement as it relates to background music) including measurables and/or links to same.  There has not been a tremendous amount of push for a kid to capture game film for this purpose.  My question - how would you compare a standard recruiting video to on-site game review?  My only request is that the frequency (or lack thereof) be addressed and whether college coaches incorporate some concept of development (apart from projection) when they are looking at some 15yo's video (coach tells the kid they like what they see but would like to see more evidence of hitting development over the summer - as an example).

If "live" action is in fact superior to "showcase" action then do we need to rethink what content we put in the video we use for recruiting?

2017LHPscrew...

I think game footage, efficiently edited, is actually very valuable (as a compliment to the usual tools clips) and that, too, has been mentioned here from time to time.  It's just a much more difficult thing to compile for most.  Also, the "tools" aspect is what traditionally gets initial interest.  Then, schools will follow up to see the player live.  But if some of that is available with the video, all the better.

Consultant posted:

4 seamer,

same story, scout was Joe Butler and Duane Schaeffer.

Bob Williams

founder Area Code games

Ok no clue who Joe Butler is but as a long suffering white Sox fan I am more than familiar with the atrocious record Duane Schaefer brings to the table.  I guess maybe he should have been doing something other than listening to the sound of the bat on the telephone!  But seriously while these type of stories are cute and all it demonstrates exactly what's wrong with baseball rather than what's right. The tobacco spitters in full force. "I know a player when I see one". "I could pick my team when they walk off the bus". On and on. Refusal to entertain science and technology.  And these same scouts go years without success - like Schaefer - and keep their jobs forever.  Have you looked at the amateur drafts under him?  As a Sox fan I have. Do it sometime. It is a shockingly poor record and yet he was there forever.  I will take measurables, technology and sabermetrics any day over a 1000 tobacco spitting scouts. 

2020dad posted:

Consultant posted:

4 seamer,

same story, scout was Joe Butler and Duane Schaeffer.

Bob Williams

founder Area Code games

Ok no clue who Joe Butler is but as a long suffering white Sox fan I am more than familiar with the atrocious record Duane Schaefer brings to the table.  I guess maybe he should have been doing something other than listening to the sound of the bat on the telephone!  But seriously while these type of stories are cute and all it demonstrates exactly what's wrong with baseball rather than what's right. The tobacco spitters in full force. "I know a player when I see one". "I could pick my team when they walk off the bus". On and on. Refusal to entertain science and technology.  And these same scouts go years without success - like Schaefer - and keep their jobs forever.  Have you looked at the amateur drafts under him?  As a Sox fan I have. Do it sometime. It is a shockingly poor record and yet he was there forever.  I will take measurables, technology and sabermetrics any day over a 1000 tobacco spitting scouts. 

I think MLB agrees with you.

Yes caco the smarter teams are placing less and less emphasis on the scouts opinions.  Scouts are still unavoidable for evaluating amateur talent but as measurables become more readily available at the amateur level scouts will slowly fade off into the sunset.  And that's fine by me. 

2020DAD - thumbs up!  I think "measurables" sometimes get confused with stats in some peoples' minds.  The occurrence of an error is one stat that helps demonstrate this.  My 2017 got credited with an error in the OF the other day.  He is pretty good at reading balls and is pretty fleet of foot and was able to catch up to the ball and simply dropped in full stride.  Not arguing the error itself, but if he were playing MLB, you could now track reaction time and foot speed, distance covered and maybe a few more items and get some idea of how he actually performs relative to others.  To bring this back to the OP, I don't understand how a few "live" action plays, seen live with no replay or secondary angle, provides a superior set of information with which to construct a development plan as opposed to some game video alongside some solid measurables.  If the kid is slow, measurables will show this and indicate he needs to work on speed.  If exit velocity is weak, measurables will show this and indicate he needs to work on his hitting.  Spray charts can help demonstrate hitting tendencies.  The list goes on and on.  Don't get me started with TrackMan and spin rates (which I would love to learn more about).

2017LHPscrewball posted:

2020DAD - thumbs up!  I think "measurables" sometimes get confused with stats in some peoples' minds.  The occurrence of an error is one stat that helps demonstrate this.  My 2017 got credited with an error in the OF the other day.  He is pretty good at reading balls and is pretty fleet of foot and was able to catch up to the ball and simply dropped in full stride.  Not arguing the error itself, but if he were playing MLB, you could now track reaction time and foot speed, distance covered and maybe a few more items and get some idea of how he actually performs relative to others.  To bring this back to the OP, I don't understand how a few "live" action plays, seen live with no replay or secondary angle, provides a superior set of information with which to construct a development plan as opposed to some game video alongside some solid measurables.  If the kid is slow, measurables will show this and indicate he needs to work on speed.  If exit velocity is weak, measurables will show this and indicate he needs to work on his hitting.  Spray charts can help demonstrate hitting tendencies.  The list goes on and on.  Don't get me started with TrackMan and spin rates (which I would love to learn more about).

Be very careful what you ask for...  I have done extensive possibly even exhaustive research on spin rates!  And you could not be more correct about reaction time and range measurables.  It's as simple as this - do you want a guy who gets to 10 balls and makes zero errors or a guy who gets to 20 balls and makes 4 errors.  If you say the guy who gets to 10 then you are just plain daft and can't be helped.  But for years that's kind of the way the game was. And yes it's frustrating when that rangy guy boots an easy one right to him but you have to see big picture.  Dr Alan Nathan is about all you will need for spin rate stuff.  Look up his baseball physics website. And make sure you understand the concept of 'useful' spin rate.  Very important. Velocity will always be king but spin rate is the crown prince!  As Kyle and others studying it will tell you increasing spin rate is still unsettled science.  And I know high spin rate and therefore swing and miss stuff is much sexier but there are many ways to manipulate your spin rate to be lower.  That's what my son does and he was 12-1 last year and led his team in every significant pitching category EXCEPT strikeouts.  Was half way through the season before even having an ERA.  Hard for a 14yo to want to be the ground ball pitcher instead of the strikeout guy but with everybody chasing the high velo big spin rate...  there's gonna be room for the guy (in college not MLB) who throws 84 with an insanely low 1250 spin rate and mad movement inducing one ground ball after another.  Within the next few years some smart schools are going to start paying a lot of attention to this. 

A ground ball pitcher is only as good as the defense behind him.  

Many schools do pay attention to this because not everyone throws 90 or above.

Thank you kindly for all your input and suggestions. You've been very gracious to share with us. Best of luck in the game!

"Another true story";

during my 1st years with the Area Code games, I interviewed all the scouts as to their system of evaluation. One scout, George Christopher said "Bob, I hope the pitcher's team has an error in the 9th inning so I can watch how the pitcher reacts". Then, I imagine this pitcher in the 7th game of the World Series. Does he have the 6th Tool?

The pro scout will also suggest a change of playing position for a player to assist in his advancement. During our Goodwill tours to Japan, Korea, Australia I often advised a player to bat left if he had running speed and a dominate right eye. The Dodger scouts watched track meets and basketball games for future baseball players.

Today, it is a combination of professional scouting with the computer. My former players now coaching with the Cubs keep me informed.

Bob Williams

My 2 cents.  As a dad of a 2020, I would not be interested.  Sure I'd love to know what the future holds, but I'll find out eventually.  I've invested in a pitching screen, a bucket of balls and a fungo bat. He has his mind set on D1and from what I see, he has a chance at it.   I think if he continues to put in the extra time, continues to get bigger and continues to do well at PG tournaments, he'll have a shot.  I enjoy all the time we spend together working towards his goal. 

This is not to say, your idea won't make money.  I've seen parents spend money on lessons with a former MLB player for kids who have very little potential. 

I'll continue to read this forum to make sure I'm making the right steps to progress down this path, but I see too much risk and little return with your idea.  Good luck.