wareagle posted:I haven’t really seen anyone dispute the fact that PG does a subpar job in reporting and especially stats.
As compared to every other company on Earth that doesn't compile stats or spin rate or exit velocity or pitching velocity???!!!
But, back to the original topic, I haven’t really seen anyone dispute the fact that PG does a subpar job in reporting and especially stats. As a paying customer, I would like to see an effort to improve this aspect of the business ( for my benefit as a customer regardless of whether it matters to scouts)
This is understandable. And correct if I'm wrong but the scorekeepers are mostly college kids home for the summer. They're trying to make a few easy bucks watching baseball. I think it's safe to say they don't really care about your sons average fastball velocity or if that was a hit/error. Add that to the fact that they start at 7:30 am and cook in that sun all day watching the same thing, in the same spot until the last game. I'm not defending them or ragging on them, just calling it like it is. I doubt these guys are making the big bucks and I doubt they care. Should it be better? Of course. But in order to get the games moving and prevent teams from playing at 1am, they are not going to take the time to calibrate the radar guns and they are not going to rotate personnel every 4 innings.
If we're being honest, we all know it's not about the stats, it's about seeing how hard our kids are throwing/how hard the opposing pitcher is throwing against them. If it's honestly about the stats, game changer is free. I use game changer for stats and stand behind home when I want to see a pitchers velocity.
As for the write ups. Yeah they're off from time to time, without a doubt. But in my opinion this is more about pushing a brand than accurately reporting scout notes. It makes the sight look more like a scouting hub than a tournament host. It adds a sense of legitimacy (not that they need it) ~Here's what the scouts are saying about the best players, who happen to be at our tournament ~ You get the picture.
Just following up - .265 hitter Jr. year in HS. #StatsDontMatter
justbaseball posted:Just following up - .265 hitter Jr. year in HS. #StatsDontMatter
Wow, super cool! Congratulations to you and your family!
CTbballDad posted:justbaseball posted:Just following up - .265 hitter Jr. year in HS. #StatsDontMatter
Wow, super cool! Congratulations to you and your family!
That's Mitch Haniger, 2018 All Star, Mariners from JBB former hometown. Reminding all that stats don't matter.
justbaseball posted:Just following up - .265 hitter Jr. year in HS. #StatsDontMatter
So awesome. Thanks for sharing that.... Enjoy the moment and good luck to him. We'll be cheering him on.
That’s great!
I can agree that the scouts aren’t paying attention to the stats but obviously YOU were interested in them. If not, why would you even have kept or remembered them from 10 years ago.
10 years from now , I don’t want to look back at my kids performance and say « I think he hit somewhere between .100 and .500. Not really sure because the scorekeepers did not do thier job, and the customers didn’t care because it didn’t matter to the scouts ».
wareagle posted:That’s great!
I can agree that the scouts aren’t paying attention to the stats but obviously YOU were interested in them. If not, why would you even have kept or remembered them from 10 years ago.
10 years from now , I don’t want to look back at my kids performance and say « I think he hit somewhere between .100 and .500. Not really sure because the scorekeepers did not do thier job, and the customers didn’t care because it didn’t matter to the scouts ».
Sorry, nice try - but I don't really give a hoot about them. I remembered he struggled and so I looked them up on MaxPreps last night. Don't remember my own son's either.
So no, I was not interested in them. Just trying to show you how irrelevant they are. Sorry if you're still not getting it.
I get stats don't matter for future advancement...you will find no place on this entire forum where I am arguing over the importance of stats.
That being said - what about the 98.5% of kids who DONT play D1 - and the 99.5% who don't play professionally? what about the VAST majority of clients who are just paying the money for the experience? I do believe an honest attempt at a reasonable product is not to much to ask for. Not because the stats matter but the product does, you are selling a product and a brand.
Think about it - there are roughly 6000 kids at the u17 WWBA (400x15) and another 5500 at the U16 and another 5000 at the u15...you are selling the "product" for 15 bucks a week and 40 for the year. It is worth getting it reasonably close.
So many people on here (myself included maybe) are baseball snobs. PG as you know it wouldn't be here without the masses, over 50% of the kids at Lakepoint are flat wasting money but nobody cares, nor should they. They have an important function, they create the revenue for PG, they create the ability to build a facility like Lakepoint or East Cobb before that. They support the infrastructure - your costs - the high fliers, the bottom half of the roster, the mid major guys, the D2 guys would all be higher with out them. The services PG provides as "gift" to the elite are paid for by the masses.
IMO get off the high horse, realize this is a complex business and there is a place in the PG model for the bottom level - PG knows this even if they won't admit it. The business model would have to change with out them...the lowly 98.% who are just there chasing an impossible dream and a life experience.
There is tremendous baseball advise on this site but much of it doesn't have a damn clue to how to run a business or satisfy a customer.
Alright - let me back up a little.
I agree, if you sell a product, you should make it good top-to-bottom. Scorekeeping should be better (if its as bad as the OP says).
The message I was trying to send was that scout notes don't necessarily connect directly to stats. A good scout can (and will) watch a guy struggle on the mound or strike out 2 or 3 times and see something completely different than the stats will say. Our older son was offered a 100% scholarship to a Power-5/D1 school the day after he was lit up in a HS game...with the college coach there. But he threw 90+ and stayed composed throughout the whole thing - thats what the coach wrote about in an email that night. None of that would show up in stats. I am sure parents reading the boxscore in the paper the next day woulda been flabbergasted if they knew what happened with the college.
This site has largely become a place for parents to get advice on whats important...and whats not...in the recruiting process. I think we've heard from a lot of folks who went through it - and have sons who coach and scout in it now. I guess if you want to pay PG a lot of money just to keep accurate stats, your priority is different (not wrong, just different) than mine in attending such an event. If you want to connect scout reports to stats - good luck! You will be eternally frustrated, as are many parents throughout HS baseball.
As for a business? I run a successful one that is heavily customer oriented. While we don't do anything related to baseball, if we did, I would insist on good scorekeeping too. I don't always agree with our customers, but I/we do try to satisfy them. I completely get that point and have a damn clue....
I feel like I get both sides of it. I have 2 that have been through the system. One was talented one not near as much.
One side I agree with every part of your baseball comments and he benefited as a player from the events. The other was there solely because his team went and he was part of the team, he sat more then he played, he isn't being recruited...but his (my) money was just as green to PG as when the other was there benefiting.
Point being the WWBA is too big to be exclusive, it is an event that has grown way past its roots. There aren't enough truly talented teams to justify them half being there but there is a quality product in demand so they come anyway. I don't mind saying PG is one organization I have very much respect for but they continue to grow and change. With that growth and revenue they need to continue to improve the full line of services.
You notice during the weeks of the BCS and the super25 there is none or very little of this...it is a much smaller field.
And I feel for you on the client level, sometimes they drive me insane or at least seem like it but they will never ever know it!!
I'd like to make the point also that many people on here who have had kids go thru the recruiting process and who ended up at D1 and D2 schools will address criticism of PG with "it's not for everyone" and other similar justifications that come off like "well, if you're not a D1 stud you should not be playing at a PG event." I'm paraphrasing, but I have seen posts in line with this.
My counter-argument to that is that if the teams who went to WWBA and similarly billed "best of the best" events only had guys playing in it who are D1 or pro prospects, your field of teams would be about 25% of what it is now. PG has to "sell the dream" to the other 98.5% that old school references above or else their business goes INTO THE TOILET. If you don't believe me, just go out and look at the rosters of the teams in the 17U WWBA and see how many committed players (95% accurate according to bacdorslider) are on a random sampling of teams. Far more teams have no committed players or less than 5 committed D1 guys that who have a roster like the Canes National 17U with virtually every player committed. Get rid of those players who aren't committed and you will have a much smaller, way more competitive tournament. You will also not make any money.
PG relies on kids who will never play college baseball to maintain their profits. They can't maintain their current profitability without those player and teams. The parents of that caliber players would have to wise up to impact that...but they are hoping to catch the eye of that low D1, D2 school for their kids, so they don't. Only what, 6% of kids play college ball? Take those 94% of kids who won't away from the PG tournaments and you can hold it on probably 5 fields.
GaryMe posted:I'd like to make the point also that many people on here who have had kids go thru the recruiting process and who ended up at D1 and D2 schools will address criticism of PG with "it's not for everyone" and other similar justifications that come off like "well, if you're not a D1 stud you should not be playing at a PG event." I'm paraphrasing, but I have seen posts in line with this.
My counter-argument to that is that if the teams who went to WWBA and similarly billed "best of the best" events only had guys playing in it who are D1 or pro prospects, your field of teams would be about 25% of what it is now. PG has to "sell the dream" to the other 98.5% that old school references above or else their business goes INTO THE TOILET. If you don't believe me, just go out and look at the rosters of the teams in the 17U WWBA and see how many committed players (95% accurate according to bacdorslider) are on a random sampling of teams. Far more teams have no committed players or less than 5 committed D1 guys that who have a roster like the Canes National 17U with virtually every player committed. Get rid of those players who aren't committed and you will have a much smaller, way more competitive tournament. You will also not make any money.
PG relies on kids who will never play college baseball to maintain their profits. They can't maintain their current profitability without those player and teams. The parents of that caliber players would have to wise up to impact that...but they are hoping to catch the eye of that low D1, D2 school for their kids, so they don't. Only what, 6% of kids play college ball? Take those 94% of kids who won't away from the PG tournaments and you can hold it on probably 5 fields.
I agree with your statements... Area Code and East Coast pro are free to the players invited.
...and there you have it Gary. Pretty accurate. However, in my view this is NOT PG's greediness or fault.
The WWBA tournament used to attract mostly the very select teams. At some point, parents got the idea that their kids were getting shafted by not getting to go and area travel coaches saw it as a way to form a team, suck kids in, make money and travel. They sold the families on 'we're going to baseball's Disneyland.' Or maybe they just didn't know better and thought the team they were forming was just better than it was?
Cooperstown is also loaded with these teams every week, all summer...for 11/12 year olds. A right of passage!...sorta. You've lived the youth baseball dream if you a) get on a T-ball travel team, b) work out all winter for baseball, c) travel to Cooperstown (twice if you're really good), d) advance to a so-called elite travel team and e) play in a national WWBA event.
If you did all that - you must be pretty special!
This is not the fault of PG. Are they supposed to pre-select who can play? That, for sure, would result in cries of "FOUL!" "BAD organization!" "ELITISTS!" Instead, they get to wear the label, "MONEY GRUBBERS!"
Its not even really the fault of most travel ball or program coaches. Parents created the demand without understanding the odds. Sometimes a kid gets "discovered" and that only motivates more parents to do all of that above.
I saw this with many parents in our area of CA. Johnny Smith gets a scholly to State U. How did he do it? He played travel ball, went to Cooperstown and then to WWBA. Must be true that if my son does that he will play college ball too!
Not many look for an honest evaluation from an independent source (they're not paying) before jumping in. No, that is not the fault of PG. Not in my book.
Most of what has been said is correct, but I would take this the other way from our personal experience. We were from Idaho, and as such, there just isn't that much baseball talent. It's getting better, but nowhere near CA, TX, FL, GA, etc., and it never will be.
Ryan's travel coach put together a group of elite IDAHO kids. Why? Because in order for the kids to find out if they were good enough, they needed to travel and compete against neighboring states. The boys traveled to Utah quite a bit, and initially, they competed some, struggled some, etc. Eventually, the boys learned what the real competition was, and there is a lot of value in that. If they had continued to play just in Idaho, they would have never learned that they needed to seriously step their game up. Utah had quite a few good players, and it took the boys awhile before they started winning some tourneys there. Later, they went to Las Vegas, Phoenix, etc., and they were prepared for the tall task at hand. They knew that they had to work hard to get better, or they would not be able to compete.
IMO this is why it is so hard to find common ground, it is the parents fault?
I DONT BLAME PG - they are making money for a great product just don't absolve them. They know exactly what they are doing, they know they have expanded, they know that they let in teams that have little to zero chance of competing, they made choice that is what they are going to do. I don't consider PG greedy - I do think they like to play the role of hero little small town operator while in the background they are a very effective corporate machine.
When you take the money from teams that don't belong you take the problems that go with it.
My sons team won the pool they were in and made the playoff round, they played an awesome game and upset a monster to do it. They are a good regional team that executed and got a little lucky. They were better, hands down not close, better then 4 of the 8 teams they played, they were less talented then 2 and similar to the other 2.
IMO our team was pretty much at the bottom of the level that should be considering going there. That means IMO half the teams we played were in over their heads and didn't belong in the event. That is not impressive to me. It wasn't always that way.
Here is an interest thing for you, check out how the 4th, 5th and 6th teams do for most of the national powerhouses, how much responsibly do they have?
You can't possibly blame the parents for the big boys sending 3 or 4 teams beyond what they know are competitive can you? They don't let parents select what team they are going to play for in the organization or what that schedule is do they?
Could you be able to argue PG should use better judgment then to let say team x enter a 5th or 6th team when they know the 4th team has struggled and been a bottom feeder the few years?
There is plenty of blame to go around.
justbaseball posted:...and there you have it Gary. Pretty accurate. However, in my view this is NOT PG's greediness or fault.
The WWBA tournament used to attract mostly the very select teams. At some point, parents got the idea that their kids were getting shafted by not getting to go and area travel coaches saw it as a way to form a team, suck kids in, make money and travel. They sold the families on 'we're going to baseball's Disneyland.' Or maybe they just didn't know better and thought the team they were forming was just better than it was?
Cooperstown is also loaded with these teams every week, all summer...for 11/12 year olds. A right of passage!...sorta. You've lived the youth baseball dream if you a) get on a T-ball travel team, b) work out all winter for baseball, c) travel to Cooperstown (twice if you're really good), d) advance to a so-called elite travel team and e) play in a national WWBA event.
If you did all that - you must be pretty special!
This is not the fault of PG. Are they supposed to pre-select who can play? That, for sure, would result in cries of "FOUL!" "BAD organization!" "ELITISTS!" Instead, they get to wear the label, "MONEY GRUBBERS!"
Its not even really the fault of most travel ball or program coaches. Parents created the demand without understanding the odds. Sometimes a kid gets "discovered" and that only motivates more parents to do all of that above.
I saw this with many parents in our area of CA. Johnny Smith gets a scholly to State U. How did he do it? He played travel ball, went to Cooperstown and then to WWBA. Must be true that if my son does that he will play college ball too!
Not many look for an honest evaluation from an independent source (they're not paying) before jumping in. No, that is not the fault of PG. Not in my book.
I don't blame PG for it at all, they would be fools to turn down fools money. I agree with what you said, but finding that independent source for an honest evaluation that isn't getting paid for it is pretty hard to find nowadays. Also, PG (and others like it) sell themselves as that "honest assessment" source...at a price. How many people have you seen rated by PG as not a college prospect at some level. People say "If you really want to play college baseball there is a team/school for you"...and that also adds to the deluge of kids who really aren't college baseball material flooding the showcase and tournament circuits in their HS years.
I will chime in on this.....so for those of us who do not have the "studs" here is a real world positive of the 17U WWBA from a couple of weeks ago. The week after, my son has had offers from D2s and JUCOs who just happened to see him in ATL. None of these schools were on his contact list. I am sure this same story could be told by many others who were in attendance. IMO without these huge events this would have never happened.
A little off topic but nevertheless.....its genius for JUCOs who can afford to send someone to this event.....find good players who are maybe flying under the radar and wham you might have yourself a really good year coming up. If you look at your local D1 JUCO here in the southeast, you will see kids from all over the U.S. The only explanation is that they were "discovered" in Atlanta.
stayfocused posted:I will chime in on this.....so for those of us who do not have the "studs" here is a real world positive of the 17U WWBA from a couple of weeks ago. The week after, my son has had offers from D2s and JUCOs who just happened to see him in ATL. None of these schools were on his contact list. I am sure this same story could be told by many others who were in attendance. IMO without these huge events this would have never happened.
A little off topic but nevertheless.....its genius for JUCOs who can afford to send someone to this event.....find good players who are maybe flying under the radar and wham you might have yourself a really good year coming up. If you look at your local D1 JUCO here in the southeast, you will see kids from all over the U.S. The only explanation is that they were "discovered" in Atlanta.
That's great for your son, really. But that's like saying you can't win the lottery without buying a ticket. You don't catch fish in a pond with no fish in it, right? Gotta know where to drop bait and when to cut bait.
What year is your son? 2018?
Gary......2019.
