I had plenty of experience with losing friends to drinking as a teenager.I am not sure how many lives it took to close a certain mountain rd at night and nearly all deaths on that road were related to drinking . We lost 4 friends Jr year in High school and 2 more as seniors. It was pure ignorance on the kids and the parents.
I too am against teenage drinking and schools have a duty to protect their students from the dangers of drinking and drugs at any of their events. However, I believe the school has no business in the private lives of anyone barring child abuse. They have a hard enough time tending to their own. As others have posted if the team has a policy on drinking then they knew what the consequences were. Many teams have a no drinking policy, I know ours did.
As for the people who think they have the right to raise others kids over some booze, get real.
We all agree under age drinking is bad. Maybe it's just me but its kind of scarey coming from a attorney on the comment part of Due Process and the Ex Post Facto being hog wash. I read about three kids from Duke may challenge at least one of those beliefs.
I am a die hard American and dont waiver on our rights whether I believe in them or not.
Good Luck
my favorite quote. (every one wants the school to be tough on kids, until it's your's.)
so many things come into play. the legal aspect of my time is my time? when are you saving a life or changing one? i think it is good to keep the players on the team w/ no playing time or can't play in so many games. but practice with the team.keeps them in the loop. with a positive group.in our state you are of legal age for certain things at 17.
njbb i'm very sorry for your loss
so many things come into play. the legal aspect of my time is my time? when are you saving a life or changing one? i think it is good to keep the players on the team w/ no playing time or can't play in so many games. but practice with the team.keeps them in the loop. with a positive group.in our state you are of legal age for certain things at 17.
njbb i'm very sorry for your loss
In our state you are not of legal age to drink until 21. If that is the case then if you are in HS and drinking you are breaking the law not just team rules. Also the kids know the rules that if they are caught drinking then they are through. If they want to take the risk of being thrown off the team and not thinking enough of their teammates, possible careers, college, coaches and school. Then they need to be prepared to suffer the consequences.
Agree with bb
Here you cannot drink to age 21 so they are breaking the law
Also most schools around here have contracts the players sign before the season starts
Th players are well aware of the consequences but some of them feel they are above it all and can get away with breaking the agreement
There is also the other aspect of the parents responsibility in the home where this took place. They can easily be arrested for permitting it
Here you cannot drink to age 21 so they are breaking the law
Also most schools around here have contracts the players sign before the season starts
Th players are well aware of the consequences but some of them feel they are above it all and can get away with breaking the agreement
There is also the other aspect of the parents responsibility in the home where this took place. They can easily be arrested for permitting it
Thank you 20dad.
Players are caught drinking, kick them off the team. Who is catching them? This is where I have the problem. Is the coach basing their removal because of an arrest? because they came to practice drunk? or because he heard they went drinking with their buddies Sat. night?
Players are caught drinking, kick them off the team. Who is catching them? This is where I have the problem. Is the coach basing their removal because of an arrest? because they came to practice drunk? or because he heard they went drinking with their buddies Sat. night?
TRhit Good point about the parents. Also they are prosecuting anyone who supplied the alcohol in our state usually an adult but not a parent. Which I did for a few friends growing up. Looking back I can't imagine how stupid that was but I was just a teenager (state law was 18). Funny thing though I bought it for them but I didn't drink because I knew the team rules.
quote:... schools around here have contracts the players sign before the season starts
This has been mentioned by more than one person. I submit that this is an example of school district administrators extending their authority beyond their boundaries. Penalties on teenagers for illegal substances consumed while NOT on school property or in a school sponsored event is the jurisdiction of law enforcement officials and the legal system, not the school principal or baseball coach.
A little more info about this situation...Coach has a zero tolerance policy which was brought up specifically in a team/parent meeting. The players also sign a code of conduct contract prior to the start of the season.
I learned last night, interestingly enough, that the players were "caught" by a coach (I'm not sure if it was the head coach or an assistant) via pictures of the players drinking at a party that were posted on one of the player's MySpace page.
I'm thinking that none of these guys will be the class valedictorian this year either.
I learned last night, interestingly enough, that the players were "caught" by a coach (I'm not sure if it was the head coach or an assistant) via pictures of the players drinking at a party that were posted on one of the player's MySpace page.
I'm thinking that none of these guys will be the class valedictorian this year either.
For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction. If a player is aware of the rules and they are clear and spelled out. Then there are no excuses. My son has very high goals for baseball. He knows #1 his grades need to be excellent. #2 if I find out he is doing something he shouldn't the school will be the least of his worries. They won't have to kick him off the team because he won't be on it anymore. Playing baseball is a privilege and not a right.
dbg
I submit to you that if those agreements are signed then that is there is to it---school/coaches policy and that is it
don't ***** now--***** before you sign it
I submit to you that if those agreements are signed then that is there is to it---school/coaches policy and that is it
don't ***** now--***** before you sign it
The beauty of baseball is the ever present possiblity of redemption. Mistakes are a big part of the game and one of the things that makes it so exciting is the way players adjust after failures and eventually succeed. You can see it in the short context of an at bat or in the long context of a career. The Josh Hamilton story is a great example of local kid, #1 draft choice, who made some bad mistakes and has recently redeemed himself. Zero tolerance rules eliminate the chance for redemption and often do more harm than good.
We should ask ourselves, why is it that there is an age restriction on drinking?
The answer is, because we believe people younger than that age are not capable of good judgement and making good decisions.
Why then is the penalty for, "breaking the law", so much stiffer for a person we deem not yet capable of good judgement than it is for an adult we deem fully capable. You aren't going to lose your job for DUI. You aren't going to have your drivers license forfieted for life for DUI.
The argument that, "they signed an agreement, therefore they knew the risk", flies in the face of the previously stated, "they aren't old enough to be capable of good judgement", statement.
Which is it? We seem to want to hold these young people to an accountable standard we are afraid to hold ourselves (society) to, and that is patently unfair. Sports should not be a place where mythical standards and irrelevant lessons are applied. It should be reflective of the real world, so real world lessons can be learned.
Should there be punishment? Absolutely
Let's make the punishment appropriate to the offense.
The answer is, because we believe people younger than that age are not capable of good judgement and making good decisions.
Why then is the penalty for, "breaking the law", so much stiffer for a person we deem not yet capable of good judgement than it is for an adult we deem fully capable. You aren't going to lose your job for DUI. You aren't going to have your drivers license forfieted for life for DUI.
The argument that, "they signed an agreement, therefore they knew the risk", flies in the face of the previously stated, "they aren't old enough to be capable of good judgement", statement.
Which is it? We seem to want to hold these young people to an accountable standard we are afraid to hold ourselves (society) to, and that is patently unfair. Sports should not be a place where mythical standards and irrelevant lessons are applied. It should be reflective of the real world, so real world lessons can be learned.
Should there be punishment? Absolutely
Let's make the punishment appropriate to the offense.
A couple years back, the #1 on my son's team (a senior who had just completed his finals)went
and got busted behind the wheel on the night before a playoff game, "arrested" for MIP. He blew a .08.
Cop must have felt sorry for him because he didn't book him, but rather took him back home to his parents. Not even a slap on the wrist.
Well the kid got the start the next day despite everyone (and yes the coach too) knowing what had transpired the night before. He did poorly, and the team played horribly. Clearly no-one was completely focused on the task at hand, and they got eliminated in an embarassing manner. The kid spread blame evenly amongst his team, but deflected all criticism from himself.
The rest of the story is predictably worse. The kid went on to play at a JC without ever learning the consquences of his actions, and got kicked off for smoking weed.
He's out of options now, but I can't help but wonder what he could have made out of a promising career had he just been given the right opportunity to learn from his first big mistake.
You have to know when to allow that second chance.
and got busted behind the wheel on the night before a playoff game, "arrested" for MIP. He blew a .08.
Cop must have felt sorry for him because he didn't book him, but rather took him back home to his parents. Not even a slap on the wrist.
Well the kid got the start the next day despite everyone (and yes the coach too) knowing what had transpired the night before. He did poorly, and the team played horribly. Clearly no-one was completely focused on the task at hand, and they got eliminated in an embarassing manner. The kid spread blame evenly amongst his team, but deflected all criticism from himself.
The rest of the story is predictably worse. The kid went on to play at a JC without ever learning the consquences of his actions, and got kicked off for smoking weed.
He's out of options now, but I can't help but wonder what he could have made out of a promising career had he just been given the right opportunity to learn from his first big mistake.
You have to know when to allow that second chance.
If the coach stated that this was his policy and zero tolerance then that's it. Drinking in HS is no more out of control than it was when I was in HS.
Coaches spend time on the internet checking out MySpace of their players?!?
As I said earlier, I am totally not in favor of under age drinking but am a firm beleiver that what you do off school property is ones own business and for parents to deal with. I always told my kids dealing with us would be their worst nightmare, but since my husband and I were once kids, we knew that it would be possible they would do kid things so our punishment fit the crime.
I am also a firm beleiver in setting an example, if I told my kids never to drink and drive, then we don't, don't ever come home with alcohol on your breath, then we didn't and we NEVER served them an alcoholic beverage or allowed them to drink in our home until they were 21. Did they drink while underage, yes they did, but as stated before, we taught them that their were grave consequences if they got caught, possibly ending up in jail.
Education begins in the home folks and as a parent I felt that it was my parental right to punish as I saw fit and trust me, I was tough, my son knew if any of the above occured he was off the team, we had no team rules for drinking but we had our own, IMO, too many parents (please don't take that personally) look the other way these days and THAT is wrong with our kids today.
For those that are of the notion that you think that your kids will never drink while underage, don't send them off college.
Coaches spend time on the internet checking out MySpace of their players?!?
As I said earlier, I am totally not in favor of under age drinking but am a firm beleiver that what you do off school property is ones own business and for parents to deal with. I always told my kids dealing with us would be their worst nightmare, but since my husband and I were once kids, we knew that it would be possible they would do kid things so our punishment fit the crime.
I am also a firm beleiver in setting an example, if I told my kids never to drink and drive, then we don't, don't ever come home with alcohol on your breath, then we didn't and we NEVER served them an alcoholic beverage or allowed them to drink in our home until they were 21. Did they drink while underage, yes they did, but as stated before, we taught them that their were grave consequences if they got caught, possibly ending up in jail.
Education begins in the home folks and as a parent I felt that it was my parental right to punish as I saw fit and trust me, I was tough, my son knew if any of the above occured he was off the team, we had no team rules for drinking but we had our own, IMO, too many parents (please don't take that personally) look the other way these days and THAT is wrong with our kids today.
For those that are of the notion that you think that your kids will never drink while underage, don't send them off college.
Our college coach told us, flat out, I dont want any phone calls saying you had been drinking and in a mexican jail at 2AM. I cant get you out.
Got a call from a parent saying they had dinner with a fellow travel team players family.Mom and dad drank 8 shots each before dinner arrived. They did this in front of their son, other player and his parents. Guess what the kid got arrested for underage drinking and resisting arrest.
Lost count of all the drunken parents have seen at HS Showcases.
Got a call from a parent saying they had dinner with a fellow travel team players family.Mom and dad drank 8 shots each before dinner arrived. They did this in front of their son, other player and his parents. Guess what the kid got arrested for underage drinking and resisting arrest.
Lost count of all the drunken parents have seen at HS Showcases.
quote:Originally posted by spizzlepop:
He's out of options now, but I can't help but wonder what he could have made out of a promising career had he just been given the right opportunity to learn from his first big mistake.
You have to know when to allow that second chance.
Sizzle,
I agree totally that the kid should have been punished. Obviously in this circumstance, it would have ended the kids HS career as he was in the playoffs of his senior season.
Had this however been any other part of his senior season, do you think throwing him off the team would be the appropriate punishment, or do you think he might have learned that valuable lesson of consequences with a suspension penalty?
Not trying to incite here, just dialouge between friends.
Regardless of what I think about drinking by adults, minors, or athletes, I have learned that kids signing oaths or contracts with their H.S. coach is not a guarantee of anything, and that makes me sad.
I feel my son's H.S. coach was a strong, upstanding role model, and that all the kids had enormous respect for him. At the same time, year after year, I saw that kids signed their conduct oath with no intention of abiding by it. Good students, poor students, religious students, troubled kids, it didn't matter.
I am not saying every kid broke the rules, but rather that all the kids had an unspoken understanding that you had to sign it or you couldn't play. After that, unless they were completely & publicly outrageous, they could do whatever they wanted.
We tried to instill in our own kids that this was a black and white issue; if you sign the oath, you follow it ... but I think we failed.
They did learn where we stood. I recall telling one of my sons that I didn't care what happened to anyone else who broke this rule and that if I learned that HE broke it after siging the oath I would remove him from the sport. He later told me (after he graduated) that he honored the oath during the season only.
I would like to think that with so many kids using alcohol and worse that it WOULD make a difference if coaches and schools would enforce zero tolerance. But as has already been mentioned here, how is it fair to expect athletes to exemplify higher standards than non athletes?
Bottom line: yes, education and values do begin at home, but it has been my personal experience that many of us who feel we have a handle on this issue will learn in a few years that, no we didn't have it under control -- the kids just knew how to convince us that we did.
Tough topic!
ktcosmos
I feel my son's H.S. coach was a strong, upstanding role model, and that all the kids had enormous respect for him. At the same time, year after year, I saw that kids signed their conduct oath with no intention of abiding by it. Good students, poor students, religious students, troubled kids, it didn't matter.
I am not saying every kid broke the rules, but rather that all the kids had an unspoken understanding that you had to sign it or you couldn't play. After that, unless they were completely & publicly outrageous, they could do whatever they wanted.
We tried to instill in our own kids that this was a black and white issue; if you sign the oath, you follow it ... but I think we failed.
They did learn where we stood. I recall telling one of my sons that I didn't care what happened to anyone else who broke this rule and that if I learned that HE broke it after siging the oath I would remove him from the sport. He later told me (after he graduated) that he honored the oath during the season only.
I would like to think that with so many kids using alcohol and worse that it WOULD make a difference if coaches and schools would enforce zero tolerance. But as has already been mentioned here, how is it fair to expect athletes to exemplify higher standards than non athletes?
Bottom line: yes, education and values do begin at home, but it has been my personal experience that many of us who feel we have a handle on this issue will learn in a few years that, no we didn't have it under control -- the kids just knew how to convince us that we did.
Tough topic!
ktcosmos
njbb - with regard to the players released last year in Nashua, 7 were drinking, one was not but he was cut along with the rest of them. The athletic contract clearly states that athletes found to be in the presence of drugs or alcohol are assumed to be using. That avoids the "I was just holding it for someone else" argument or the "here, just hold this for me" trick.
In this case, several of the young men went home drunk. Their parents contacted the parents of the young man at who's home they'd been drinking, and the young man's parents made him come clean to the coach.
There is no he said/he said here. If you were present and you knew the rules, you're cut. There are a lot of other infractions in the athletic contract that don't carry as heavy a penalty, but getting kids to make the right decisions when it comes to drugs and alcohol can be a matter of life and death, so its taken very seriously.
In this case, several of the young men went home drunk. Their parents contacted the parents of the young man at who's home they'd been drinking, and the young man's parents made him come clean to the coach.
There is no he said/he said here. If you were present and you knew the rules, you're cut. There are a lot of other infractions in the athletic contract that don't carry as heavy a penalty, but getting kids to make the right decisions when it comes to drugs and alcohol can be a matter of life and death, so its taken very seriously.
There is nothing on this thread that I agree with more than the comments of TPM that are posted above. We all agree that underage drinking is a problem. Most of us agree that if the team had a contract or policy known about ahead of time, kick 'em off (though I really do believe they'd be more effectively punished by being benched for most or all of the balance of season, let their peers punish them), most of us agree that the schools probably shouldn't have reach into our homes and outside of school hours.
What I don't see enough of, are comments about leading by example and principle, as TPM has posted above. Well said, mom.
What I don't see enough of, are comments about leading by example and principle, as TPM has posted above. Well said, mom.
What is the big deal? Make a rule enforce it. the problem is when you make a rule and you dont.
Does anyone know of any HS that DOES NOT have an Athletic Code of Conduct that references drinking?
What concerns me are not the "good parents" like most on this site that would dicipline at home, rather the parents that blow it off. I want those kids to have to pay a concequence somewhere, not only because they should, but because my kids are out on the road the same time they are drinking with a free school pass. If you don't drink you have nothing to worry about, if you do the hammer comes down from every direction and one of them may hit it's mark. If you are a HS athlete or scholar with a dream, drinking is not something that's hard to pass on.
quote:tpm quote:
As I said earlier, I am totally not in favor of under age drinking but am a firm beleiver that what you do off school property is ones own business and for parents to deal with.
What concerns me are not the "good parents" like most on this site that would dicipline at home, rather the parents that blow it off. I want those kids to have to pay a concequence somewhere, not only because they should, but because my kids are out on the road the same time they are drinking with a free school pass. If you don't drink you have nothing to worry about, if you do the hammer comes down from every direction and one of them may hit it's mark. If you are a HS athlete or scholar with a dream, drinking is not something that's hard to pass on.
quote
I learned last night, interestingly enough, that the players were "caught" by a coach (I'm not sure if it was the head coach or an assistant) via pictures of the players drinking at a party that were posted on one of the player's MySpace page
-------------------------------------------------
you would not believe what kids put on my space pages.and then they are so surprised that the police or school officials or parents see it. it's on the world wide web for gosh sakes. talk about bad judgement. i really think kids today think they are invisable to all. they are not as sneeky as we were.or we thought we were.
I learned last night, interestingly enough, that the players were "caught" by a coach (I'm not sure if it was the head coach or an assistant) via pictures of the players drinking at a party that were posted on one of the player's MySpace page
-------------------------------------------------
you would not believe what kids put on my space pages.and then they are so surprised that the police or school officials or parents see it. it's on the world wide web for gosh sakes. talk about bad judgement. i really think kids today think they are invisable to all. they are not as sneeky as we were.or we thought we were.
Rz,
When my son was in HS, he had a code of conduct to follow, no drinking, no drugs, no tobacco ON COUNTY SCHOOL PROPERTY. I do beleive that it had consequences but not to boot anyone off the team. I also feel as you do, my kids have been told to never drink and drive until they dreamt it, I never worried about them, it was the other drivers that I worried about. It's not the good parents but the ones who have no clue, or turn the other way ecause they don't want to know about it (lots of those out there these days).
Did he punish the player on the team that got drunk one night and hit a pole that almost killed him, no, did he punish a few kids on the team that were found drinking in a school parking lot one night, yes he also took away games from a player who was n chewing (not gum) during a game He also lived by the rule, if you are absent you don't play the following game because practice was mandatory and you can't be at practice if you are absent from school. If you are caught cutting school (unexcused absence) don't bother showing up that day. He wasn't the best coach, but he also knew that kids are kids, they mess up.
I agree having let down your peers and have them judge you, is the worst punishment of all.
As far as Frank's comment regarding what his college coach said a really smart college coach realizes that young men are away from home for the first time and are learning life on their own. There are rules, you would be surprised that coaches have some rules regarding drinking, but usually doesn't include getting kicked off the team. Then again if problems keep happening over and over to the same player I suppose you better pack up and leave. Besides, the older guys have a way of putting the younger guys in their place, a job that coach most likely they take care of, not him. Nothing worse that peer pressure!
What irks me are times when rules are in place and change for the circumstances. For example, no open containers on campus, but they leave out EXCEPT on football days in designated areas. Underage drinkers will be penalized but on football saturdays no one has no cue if you are 21 or not or even cares.
When my son was in HS, he had a code of conduct to follow, no drinking, no drugs, no tobacco ON COUNTY SCHOOL PROPERTY. I do beleive that it had consequences but not to boot anyone off the team. I also feel as you do, my kids have been told to never drink and drive until they dreamt it, I never worried about them, it was the other drivers that I worried about. It's not the good parents but the ones who have no clue, or turn the other way ecause they don't want to know about it (lots of those out there these days).
Did he punish the player on the team that got drunk one night and hit a pole that almost killed him, no, did he punish a few kids on the team that were found drinking in a school parking lot one night, yes he also took away games from a player who was n chewing (not gum) during a game He also lived by the rule, if you are absent you don't play the following game because practice was mandatory and you can't be at practice if you are absent from school. If you are caught cutting school (unexcused absence) don't bother showing up that day. He wasn't the best coach, but he also knew that kids are kids, they mess up.
I agree having let down your peers and have them judge you, is the worst punishment of all.
As far as Frank's comment regarding what his college coach said a really smart college coach realizes that young men are away from home for the first time and are learning life on their own. There are rules, you would be surprised that coaches have some rules regarding drinking, but usually doesn't include getting kicked off the team. Then again if problems keep happening over and over to the same player I suppose you better pack up and leave. Besides, the older guys have a way of putting the younger guys in their place, a job that coach most likely they take care of, not him. Nothing worse that peer pressure!
What irks me are times when rules are in place and change for the circumstances. For example, no open containers on campus, but they leave out EXCEPT on football days in designated areas. Underage drinkers will be penalized but on football saturdays no one has no cue if you are 21 or not or even cares.
KmomNH
Sounds like the matter was handle very well, Parents were policing their kids
Sounds like the matter was handle very well, Parents were policing their kids
FYI
The organization that my son plays for checks my space and a player was drug tested because of somthing he posted.
The organization that my son plays for checks my space and a player was drug tested because of somthing he posted.
quote:tpm quote:
When my son was in HS, he had a code of conduct to follow, no drinking, no drugs, no tobacco ON COUNTY SCHOOL PROPERTY. I do beleive that it had consequences but not to boot anyone off the team.
Don't you feel that you should be punished for an illegal activity regardless of where it happens when you are supossed to be setting an example and/or representing your school? I know that I would have issues at work if I was caught doing a "naughty" outside the workplace, because it would be looked at as being irresoponsible. The penalties may not be the same, but there would be a penalty.
quote:tpm quote:
It's not the good parents but the ones who have no clue, or turn the other way ecause they don't want to know about it (lots of those out there these days).
Thats all I'm saying, there has to be a penalty for a broken rule, many parents will blow it off. In our HS it's 6 games if you were at a party where drinking occurred and you have a 15 minute window to call someone if you are stuck there. It is a here-say rule, no pics needed, just the report of someone there. If it is story to get you in trouble it is an easy one to get out of it as your accuser has to confront you, and you have the right to call him on it with your own proof.
What I don't understand is how people can say that the school cannot carry out it's punishment if it does not happen on school property.
quote:What irks me are times when rules are in place and change for the circumstances. For example, no open containers on campus, but they leave out EXCEPT on football days in designated areas. Underage drinkers will be penalized but on football saturdays no one has no cue if you are 21 or not or even cares
That to me is two rules that occur on different days and is well documented. As far as the underage drinking part is concerned it is illegal regardless of the day however the resources are not available to always enforce it. Law enforcement sometimes has to "pick it's poison" of what laws to enforce during a "combustable" event.
rz,
That was the code of conduct and I didn't make it coach did.
We taught our kids that they had to follow the rules where ever they went, set good examples, in school and out of school, student athlete or no student athlete. We tried to set good examples.
Maybe if more folks taught their kids that, we wouldn't be contributing to this discussion.
That was the code of conduct and I didn't make it coach did.
We taught our kids that they had to follow the rules where ever they went, set good examples, in school and out of school, student athlete or no student athlete. We tried to set good examples.
Maybe if more folks taught their kids that, we wouldn't be contributing to this discussion.
quote:We all agree under age drinking is bad. Maybe it's just me but its kind of scarey coming from a attorney on the comment part of Due Process and the Ex Post Facto being hog wash. I read about three kids from Duke may challenge at least one of those beliefs.
I am a die hard American and dont waiver on our rights whether I believe in them or not
I don't disagree with you. I love that quotation that jazz music, baseball, and the Constitution are the greatest contributions that America has made to the world. I didn't mean that they were hogwash in general, not at all. I DID mean that for a juvenile, or his parent, to assert such "rights" when someone has committed (on videotape!) criminal acts, is. Criminals don't have constitutional rights to get out of the consequences of their criminal acts.
The Duke players are not analogous at all. They have been declared innocent of the crimes of which they were accused; that is a different situation. If the high school players in question wanted to challenge their guilt (which no one has asserted they do, especially since they were caught red-handed), then yes of course they are entitled to due process, reinstatment, etc. But for them to say, "Well, sure, we committed a criminal and illegal act, but you didn't TELL us that we might face athletic suspension as a result" (if that is the case), just strikes me as absurd. Whatever will teach them the lesson of their life is what should happen. Athletic suspension sure doesn't sound too harsh or inappropriate to me.
I doubt that any team has a written policy that if someone commits a violent assault, they will be kicked off the team; but shouldn't that be the result? (along with school suspension, criminal prosecution, and civil damages).
I'm probably all riled up because I am sick of bad kids acting terribly and endangering their own health and other people's lives. I am even more sick of their sorry excuses for parents (NOT talking about anyone on this wonderful site!) trying to get them out of the consequences of their own bad behavior and bad upbringing.
I also do agree that people should be given second chances; but second chances should happen AFTER the first punishment has been meted out. Otherwise, they are so very likely to commit a second, possibly fatal act because they have just learned that at least once, there are no consequences. They'll keep testing the limits, probably, until there are some.
We had an incnident a few years back in our region where a group of football players got caught breaking and entering a house and one had a gun in his possession--the school suspeneded them immediiately but it was overturned in time for the following Saturdays game---the reason--it was not on school property nor a school function
I ask one thing---where are the parents ?---if it had been my son he would have no way been able to play that weekend regardless of what the school said--his kneecaps would have been busted--- and these were not poor kids---all out of "plush" neighborhood
I ask one thing---where are the parents ?---if it had been my son he would have no way been able to play that weekend regardless of what the school said--his kneecaps would have been busted--- and these were not poor kids---all out of "plush" neighborhood
Drinking underage, no matter where,...off school property or on is against rules/laws ( city rules, school rules, athletic code of conduct, house rules, etc. ). These boundaries are imposed for a reason.
Regardless of the rule being broken where, regardless of the income level of the family,
if a minor violates these boundaries, the minor pays the price.
Its very simple, no gray area in my mind.
If the school, or the law let one of my kids off the hook for violating said law/rule ( for whatever reason ), I personally would be standing there to hang them back on it,...and they know it.
Second chance?
Nope, sorry.
Regardless of the rule being broken where, regardless of the income level of the family,
if a minor violates these boundaries, the minor pays the price.
Its very simple, no gray area in my mind.
If the school, or the law let one of my kids off the hook for violating said law/rule ( for whatever reason ), I personally would be standing there to hang them back on it,...and they know it.
Second chance?
Nope, sorry.
When I was growing up my brother was given his last rights (he survived) and his girlfriend was killed in a prom night accident. A star football player was passing another car over a hill and my brother was coming up the other side. They hid the player from the media and accused my brother of drinking. In court the beer cans found at the seen were determined to be not from my brothers car but from the star football players. My brother won his case but will never be the same. We don't know if that was the first time for this person being caught but I'll bet he was let off the hook at least once before and probably several because of his abilities as a football player. Where do we draw the line? There has to be some accountability by teenagers for their actions especially if it is also illegal activity.
I would never condone teenage drinking, however kids will be kids. That doesn't excuse the behavior for me. But, imagine if we had all suffered real consequences for all of our teen actions. I did not use drugs, but I did break lots of rules and laws along the way. If I had my young life ruined by one of these actions, I don't know where I'd be now. Personal responsibility should mean just that, but if you don't get caught enjoying some teenage shenanagans, then life goes on. If you do, the authority at the time also has some important and difficult decisions to make. Some today are too quick to judge and are willing to make kids pay ultimate prices just to set an example. There are many forms of punishment, and many to fit the crime. If a good student athlete has his (her) high school career ended by an over zealous school official, where will he (she) end up? He may blame the world and do something drastic.
bourdeux
quote I'm probably all riled up because I am sick of bad kids acting terribly and endangering their own health and other people's lives. I am even more sick of their sorry excuses for parents (NOT talking about anyone on this wonderful site!) trying to get them out of the consequences of their own bad behavior and bad upbringing
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i mean no disrespect but you sound like someone who has never had their child do anything wrong. rule one as a parent never say my kid wouldn't because you never know what your kids will do. you hope they wouldn't.but you don't know. i don't consider myself a bad parent or my son a bad kid. but we sure have been through some bad stuff.
i have done it myself but painting that picture with such a broad brush isn't right. i hope and pray you never have any problems like this with your kids, and i mean that from my heart. it is the most difficult thing for a parent imo. as i said i mean no disrespect.
quote I'm probably all riled up because I am sick of bad kids acting terribly and endangering their own health and other people's lives. I am even more sick of their sorry excuses for parents (NOT talking about anyone on this wonderful site!) trying to get them out of the consequences of their own bad behavior and bad upbringing
----------------------------------------------------
i mean no disrespect but you sound like someone who has never had their child do anything wrong. rule one as a parent never say my kid wouldn't because you never know what your kids will do. you hope they wouldn't.but you don't know. i don't consider myself a bad parent or my son a bad kid. but we sure have been through some bad stuff.
i have done it myself but painting that picture with such a broad brush isn't right. i hope and pray you never have any problems like this with your kids, and i mean that from my heart. it is the most difficult thing for a parent imo. as i said i mean no disrespect.
quote:Originally posted by Coachric:
But, imagine if we had all suffered real consequences for all of our teen actions. I did not use drugs, but I did break lots of rules and laws along the way.
Sounds like most of the baby boomers that I grew up with!
I personally will never know the answer, I just know how I did it for my kids and it worked pretty good for us. Both of them, one 30 one 21, knew what was right from wrong and knew the consequences.
Parents set good examples and don't be hypocritical, if you did things that were illegal when you were young, don't preach to the choir, know that kids are kids, just teach them there are consequences to their illegal behavior. You cannot stop them or protect them from making bad choices. If that includes getting kicked off the team for drinking, though I am not in favor of that rule, stand behind the consequences. Parents like rules, it takes them off the hook, but the ones who have none in their home, usually are the first ones into the AD's office to complain.
In the meantime y'all have a great weekend, off to see my 21 year old.
"I went to a party, Mom"
I went to a party, and remembered what you said.
You told me not to drink, Mom so I had a sprite instead.
I felt proud of myself, the way you said I would, that I didn't drink and drive, though some friends said I should.
I made a healthy choice, and your advice to me was right, the party finally ended, and the kids drove out of sight.
I got into my car, sure to get home in one piece, I never knew what was coming, Mom something I expected least.
Now I'm lying on the pavement, and I hear the policeman say, the kid that caused this wreck was drunk."
Mom, His voice seems far away. My own blood's all around me, as I try hard not to cry. I can hear the paramedic say, this girl is going to die."
I'm sure the guy had no idea, while he was flying high, because he chose to drink and drive; now I would have to die.
So why do people do it, Mom. Knowing that it ruins lives? And now the pain is cutting me, like a hundred stabbing knives. Tell sister not to be afraid, Mom tell daddy to be brave, and when I go to heaven, put "Daddy's Girl" on my grave.
Someone should have taught him, that it’s wrong to drink and drive. Maybe if his parents had, I'd still be alive.
My breath is getting shorter, Mom I'm getting really scared. These are my final moments, and I'm so unprepared.
I wish that you could hold me Mom, as I lie here and die.
I wish that I could say I love you, Mom
So I love you and good-bye.
Unknown Author
I started with this poem because it relates and it's the week of prom here. I cannot recall ever being directly affected by a drunk driver, but I've seen the destruction of a drunk driver. I have also been directly affected by a car accident, the Class of 2007 lost a teammate, a classmate, and a great kid because he had stayed up too late and he fell asleep at the wheel on the way to football weight lifting. He met a tractor trailer on a narrow highway and crossed over the yellow line. The trucker rolled the semi trying to avoid it, but couldn't avoid it quick enough. I don't want to go to another funeral for someone my age again.
This topic is very important to me because I've seen the affects and I've helped portray the affects to our school twice in my high school career. The normal teenager "is invincible." If you don't believe me, ask one of them.
Underage drinking is a big problem in our society. Why? Because teenagers have an adventurous side to them and so they want to "test the waters" with alcohol or narcotics, whatever. Also, it is seen as being the cool thing to do and that's what high school is all about. I gotta be cool.
Athletics are not a right. I don't have the "right to play baseball" anymore than I have the "righ to kick your butt" because I want to. It's a privilege. With privileges come expectations. As a baseball player, I am expected to perform to the best of my ability 100% of the time. I am expected to obey the Athletic Training Standards as set by the school board. I am expected to be a model citizen. With this said, I wish to post another poem:
Little Eyes Upon You
There are little eyes upon you
That watch you day and night.
There are little ears that quickly take in every word that you say.
There are little hands all eager to do anything you do
And a little child who is dreaming of the day he / she will be like you
You are the little one's idol
The wisest of the wise.
In their little minds no suspicions ever rise about you
They believe in you devoutly
And hold all you say and do
So that he may do the same when he /she is grown up just like you.
There is a wide eyed little one
Who believes you are always right
And his/ her eyes are always open watching you day and night.
You are setting an example everyday in all you do
For the little one who is waiting to grow up to be just like you.
The first time I heard this poem was from my high school basketball coach. I believe this is something all athletes should hear because it's absolutely true that athletes are looked up upon and they are held to a higher standard. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
CPLZ, I find it interesting you are so opposed to the school representing itself with its best. I would not consider a law-breaker to be the "best" of a school. I would also like your son's input into this type of thing and how you are going to handle him attending an institution that will nearly tell him what he can and cannot do and when he can or cannot do it.
Finally, Waterloo High School's policy:
First offense: 23% of season (baseball that is 8 games)
Second offense: 1 full calendar year
Third offense: your high school athletic career is now over
This policy starts when you enter as a freshman and ends when you graduate (or are thru with school sports). For example, Joe gets caught smoking September of his freshman year. He plays only baseball. He sits 8 games of his freshman season. Joe becomes a sophomore and he's got a junior girlfriend who wants to go to prom. They hit a party with some adult refreshments afterwards and the cops show up. Joe finds himself in court and he finds that baseball uniform missing as he now sits til April of his junior year. So Joe is now in the summer between his junior and senior year. It's the 4th of July and Joe has a beer or two. He starts shooting fireworks and the cops happen to drive by. He's been busted again and this time Joe finds he no longer plays high school athletics.
Other extra curricular activities have policies as well, but I believe those are expressed in weeks.
------------
For any of you who might not know, I'm a senior in high school. I can honestly say I've never drank a beer, smoked a cigarette, or anything like that. You better believe I've been tempted at least once to drink. One of my sisters was known to drink underage.
I read this thread and I don't recall seeing any player input. That probably has to do with those guys are out playing! I'd like to see some player input as well.
I went to a party, and remembered what you said.
You told me not to drink, Mom so I had a sprite instead.
I felt proud of myself, the way you said I would, that I didn't drink and drive, though some friends said I should.
I made a healthy choice, and your advice to me was right, the party finally ended, and the kids drove out of sight.
I got into my car, sure to get home in one piece, I never knew what was coming, Mom something I expected least.
Now I'm lying on the pavement, and I hear the policeman say, the kid that caused this wreck was drunk."
Mom, His voice seems far away. My own blood's all around me, as I try hard not to cry. I can hear the paramedic say, this girl is going to die."
I'm sure the guy had no idea, while he was flying high, because he chose to drink and drive; now I would have to die.
So why do people do it, Mom. Knowing that it ruins lives? And now the pain is cutting me, like a hundred stabbing knives. Tell sister not to be afraid, Mom tell daddy to be brave, and when I go to heaven, put "Daddy's Girl" on my grave.
Someone should have taught him, that it’s wrong to drink and drive. Maybe if his parents had, I'd still be alive.
My breath is getting shorter, Mom I'm getting really scared. These are my final moments, and I'm so unprepared.
I wish that you could hold me Mom, as I lie here and die.
I wish that I could say I love you, Mom
So I love you and good-bye.
Unknown Author
I started with this poem because it relates and it's the week of prom here. I cannot recall ever being directly affected by a drunk driver, but I've seen the destruction of a drunk driver. I have also been directly affected by a car accident, the Class of 2007 lost a teammate, a classmate, and a great kid because he had stayed up too late and he fell asleep at the wheel on the way to football weight lifting. He met a tractor trailer on a narrow highway and crossed over the yellow line. The trucker rolled the semi trying to avoid it, but couldn't avoid it quick enough. I don't want to go to another funeral for someone my age again.
This topic is very important to me because I've seen the affects and I've helped portray the affects to our school twice in my high school career. The normal teenager "is invincible." If you don't believe me, ask one of them.
Underage drinking is a big problem in our society. Why? Because teenagers have an adventurous side to them and so they want to "test the waters" with alcohol or narcotics, whatever. Also, it is seen as being the cool thing to do and that's what high school is all about. I gotta be cool.
Athletics are not a right. I don't have the "right to play baseball" anymore than I have the "righ to kick your butt" because I want to. It's a privilege. With privileges come expectations. As a baseball player, I am expected to perform to the best of my ability 100% of the time. I am expected to obey the Athletic Training Standards as set by the school board. I am expected to be a model citizen. With this said, I wish to post another poem:
Little Eyes Upon You
There are little eyes upon you
That watch you day and night.
There are little ears that quickly take in every word that you say.
There are little hands all eager to do anything you do
And a little child who is dreaming of the day he / she will be like you
You are the little one's idol
The wisest of the wise.
In their little minds no suspicions ever rise about you
They believe in you devoutly
And hold all you say and do
So that he may do the same when he /she is grown up just like you.
There is a wide eyed little one
Who believes you are always right
And his/ her eyes are always open watching you day and night.
You are setting an example everyday in all you do
For the little one who is waiting to grow up to be just like you.
The first time I heard this poem was from my high school basketball coach. I believe this is something all athletes should hear because it's absolutely true that athletes are looked up upon and they are held to a higher standard. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
CPLZ, I find it interesting you are so opposed to the school representing itself with its best. I would not consider a law-breaker to be the "best" of a school. I would also like your son's input into this type of thing and how you are going to handle him attending an institution that will nearly tell him what he can and cannot do and when he can or cannot do it.
Finally, Waterloo High School's policy:
First offense: 23% of season (baseball that is 8 games)
Second offense: 1 full calendar year
Third offense: your high school athletic career is now over
This policy starts when you enter as a freshman and ends when you graduate (or are thru with school sports). For example, Joe gets caught smoking September of his freshman year. He plays only baseball. He sits 8 games of his freshman season. Joe becomes a sophomore and he's got a junior girlfriend who wants to go to prom. They hit a party with some adult refreshments afterwards and the cops show up. Joe finds himself in court and he finds that baseball uniform missing as he now sits til April of his junior year. So Joe is now in the summer between his junior and senior year. It's the 4th of July and Joe has a beer or two. He starts shooting fireworks and the cops happen to drive by. He's been busted again and this time Joe finds he no longer plays high school athletics.
Other extra curricular activities have policies as well, but I believe those are expressed in weeks.
------------
For any of you who might not know, I'm a senior in high school. I can honestly say I've never drank a beer, smoked a cigarette, or anything like that. You better believe I've been tempted at least once to drink. One of my sisters was known to drink underage.
I read this thread and I don't recall seeing any player input. That probably has to do with those guys are out playing! I'd like to see some player input as well.
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
CPLZ, I find it interesting you are so opposed to the school representing itself with its best. I would not consider a law-breaker to be the "best" of a school. I would also like your son's input into this type of thing and how you are going to handle him attending an institution that will nearly tell him what he can and cannot do and when he can or cannot do it.
Finally, Waterloo High School's policy:
First offense: 23% of season (baseball that is 8 games)
Second offense: 1 full calendar year
Third offense: your high school athletic career is now over
This policy starts when you enter as a freshman and ends when you graduate (or are thru with school sports).
Bulldog,
By that comment you obviously mean that any person who has ever committed any offense can't possibly be the schools best. To that, my only response is that age has not taught you enough about human character. You cannot paint the world in such broad terms based on one event. Even your own school policy has temperance for first time offenders. It understands that a single mistake will bring consequences, but not the catestrophic finality of end to an athletic season. According to your logic, being good is defined solely by whether someone has not been caught breaking a law. That's a bit narrow as age will show you that even the best make mistakes, it's what makes us human. What makes us a good society, is giving people the opportunity to learn and recover from those mistakes.
As to your comments about West Point, they lack understanding. It is easy at your age to think you know what something is, when actually, you are without much understanding. I would put your comments in that category. If you would like to learn more about West Point and what it really is and isn't, I'd be happy to share it with you in PM.
Good luck in the rest of your HS career.
CPLZ, you are the voice of reason on this thread. I'd like to know how many players on ANY team have never cheated, stolen, lied, drunk alcohol, sped, run a red light, broken a city curfew, etc., etc., etc. I would imagine there would be very few "best" players left standing if we knew the truth about everyone.
There are rules and when you break the rules, things will happen to you. Although I strongly disagree with many of our country's laws regarding substance use/abuse, I understand that fact. That being said I think there is a strong double standard set in our society regarding alcohol policy and laws in general pertaining to minors. If you are caught speeding in MA and you're under eighteen, your license is suspended for 90 days for the first offense. Once you turn 18, nothing happens. If you are drinking and you're under 21 and get caught, there are unending consequences that may await you. I understand the idea that younger people may not be able to make the same decisions as adults, but adults behave like children constantly (especially regarding alcohol). None of my friends drive drunk. I think our society has done a good job educating my generation about the dangers of drunk driving. To quote president Carter, I don't think the penalties should be worse than the actual effects of the action. Just my opinion.
Can I throw in that some colleges & universities now have zero tolerance? I know a number of kids at UGA who were booted out of school for underage drinking. They now have to reapply. They knew the policy, but took a chance and got caught. Others don't get caught, but they know they'll be kicked out if they are. Russian roulett, toss of the dice. The problem is that many kids believe they are invincible and extraordinarily clever, and no one will ever catch them. It's a sad thing to get caught and have to face the firing squad. Especially as seniors. Ouch.