Separation Separated The High Level Swing From The Imposters

Therefore, when evaluating video, be sure to learn to recognize the "go" frame.

And base all you decision on what the hitter is doing based on that frame. The frame of commitment.

If you are counting frames....start there. Why would you start counting before any commitment to swing has been made.

If you are trying to decide on the importance of separation in the high level pattern....determine the go frame and look at the hitters position at that point.

THEN....most importantly....pick up your bat and get out your video camera....and duplicate the movements you see.

You will "feel" things before you "see" things.

Starting the frame count from "go" is questionable at best.

I'd suggest selecting the initial forward hand movement.

Every check point can be somewhat subjective. Whether that be the barrel's first move, heel plant, or what you suggest.

Toetouch and heelplant must not be used. Because "go" happens before either at times. Then, other times, it happens long after both.....as well as anytime in between.

However, when you realize the barrel is sent rearward by all high level hitters, it becomes easy to determine "go" by the barrel blur and the corresponding lateral tilt and push from the back foot.

Posada's barrel floats rearward prior to commitment. But it really blurs at commitmemt.

The hands can do many things...move many ways with or without commitment. I wouldn't recommend using them. Especially because good hitters try to keep their hands from going forward.

I have found the barrel the easiest sign of "go". Watch Barry and Ted's barrel get that sudden increase in speed.....rearward.

And....what you consider "go" may be different than me. But that is ok as long as you use the same check point every time in evaluating young hitters. The actual frame count is not the issue. The improvement in frame count is.

And....again....you won't understand what you're looking at until you try to duplicate what you see the high level players do. And video it.

You will be surprised what you find.

Here are two greats whose "go" is before toe touch.



P.S. How far do Posada's hands move forward in the check swing? And, you suggest that is a good indicator?

This has been the major point of conversation all day on another website. Therefore, I thought it would end up here. I'll have more comments when I get a chance. Quickly, Richard came up with his "go" opinion on frame count. My opinion is that it is absurd to watch a video and determine when they are at the point of no return since no two hitters are the same, have the same cognitive skills, athletic abilities, etc. The argument, or opposing view presented was bbscout's (dmac on other sites) opinion of when to count frames. If I find time, I can quote him on his opinion. However, his opinion was to start it at heel plant.

Per the seperation issue, for some the problem isn't that a minute delay occurs between the shoulder region and the hips but rather the term "seperation." The whole process, if I've timed it correctly would occur in approx. .2 of a second. Again, more on that later.

Gosh, does anyone what to grade all of these essays for finals? About 3o down and 100+ left.

quote:

My opinion is that it is absurd to watch a video and determine when they are at the point of no return since no two hitters are the same, have the same cognitive skills, athletic abilities, etc.

This is exactly why you must watch the video and make your own determination when "go" occurs.........

IMO, absurd is to not do this....

LC,

In a previous thread, you state that:

"...by no means can the linear movement that you see when a hitter takes a pitch be considered weight shift. Weight shift is just that. A total shift of the weight from the rear to the front.

And that happens at "go"."

Then on here you say:

"I have found the barrel the easiest sign of "go". Watch Barry and Ted's barrel get that sudden increase in speed.....rearward."

In one thread you state that at "go," there is a total weight shift. Then on here you say that the barrel blurring (rearward) is your sign of "go."

We may be saying the same thing in a different way here. However, when I see a complete weight shift, the back foot usually comes off the ground, and that, IMO, happens after the barrell begins to blur rearward. That complete weight shift comes at some point around contact, IMO, and definitely after the barrell blur.

So what is your sign of "go?"

quote:

The hands can do many things...move many ways with or without commitment. I wouldn't recommend using them. Especially because good hitters try to keep their hands from going forward.

It is the desire to keep the hands from going forward until the last moment that leads me to use the forward movement of the hands to start the frame count.

quote:

So what is your sign of "go?"

Why just a partial quote? lol

Can't more than one thing happen at "go"?

In my last post it says...

quote:

it becomes easy to determine "go" by the barrel blur and the corresponding lateral tilt and push from the back foot

Visually, watching clips, making an educated guess "when" a hitter goes....you're going to see the barrel blur at "go". Confirm that by "feeling" if he pushes and laterally tilts at the same time.

The combination of the barrel blur, the weight shift and the lateral tilt of the shoulders make up the "go" move. That is what should be taught.

I see no contradiction.

"go" is all three.

Determining "go" in a video clip is best found by watching the barrel blur....then confirm by "feeling" and or "seeing" the other things.

quote:

Originally posted by SunsetHS:
It is the desire to keep the hands from going forward until the last moment that leads me to use the forward movement of the hands to start the frame count.

What other conclusions do you make that deny/ignore video of the best?



So....how many frames is Posada on the right? lol

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Quickly, Richard came up with his "go" opinion on frame count.

No...not quickly. I've been teaching this for several weeks.

quote:

y opinion is that it is absurd to watch a video and determine when they are at the point of no return since no two hitters are the same, have the same cognitive skills, athletic abilities, etc.

No one claims all hitters "go" at the same time. Straw man. But you can come closer to determining "go", when watching video, than you can say.....the amount of tension a hitter has in his shoulder complex. Or, whether he pushes with his back foot.

quote:

his opinion was to start it at heel plant.

No it wasn't. It was solid heel plant. A LARGE difference as you can have more than one frame of heel plant. I've seen up to 3.

quote:

Per the seperation issue, for some the problem isn't that a minute delay occurs between the shoulder region and the hips but rather the term "seperation."

B25 claims this...



...is minute?....occurs in about .2 seconds. There is no less than 8 frames of separation creation in Chippers swing....prior to commitment.



At least 6-7 frames of separation creation...prior to commitmemt.



How many frames do you count here?

quote:

the whole process, if I've timed it correctly would occur in approx. .2 of a second.

Yes, please show us your study.

Quite frankly....if these hitters are not separating then their swings are 12-15 frames in length.

For more on this discussion, but on another site, Please refer to:

Baseball Fever

The Thread is "Swing Analysis' and the comments on frames begins on page 2.

Really interesting discussion with a lot of points of view. Enjoy the reading.

Richard, I wanted to make another post in reference to "quickly," I guess your remark was in humor. I didn't suggest you did this without giving it due consideration. While I disagree with a lot of what you believe, I also don't think you jump into it without a sincere effort. I do still disagree. Oil and water. That's ok as long as civility rules the day.

quote:

Originally posted by Loose Cannon:
Can't more than one thing happen at "go"?

In my last post it says...

quote:

it becomes easy to determine "go" by the barrel blur and the corresponding lateral tilt and push from the back foot

Visually, watching clips, making an educated guess "when" a hitter goes....you're going to see the barrel blur at "go". Confirm that by "feeling" if he pushes and laterally tilts at the same time.

The combination of the barrel blur, the weight shift and the lateral tilt of the shoulders make up the "go" move. That is what should be taught.

I see no contradiction.

"go" is all three.

Determing "go" in a video clip is best found by watching the barrel blur....then confirm by "feeling" and or "seeing" the other things.

Ok Richard,

Is "go" the moment in the swing where you decide to swing or the motion of the entire swing?

To me, you have made the impression that "go" is the moment where the swing reaches the point of no return. I believe that your version of "go" is a moment in the swing, not the whole swing. Thats fine IMO, and I respect that opinion.

Where I believe that you do contradict yourself is where you combine the barrell blur and weight shift happening at the same time.

You defined weight shift as "complete weight shift" in the "hitting" thread, did you not?

And by complete weight shift, I believe that is the point where the back foot comes off the ground, or where at least the hitter is up against a firm front side. Would you agree with that?

After looking at many many clips (most of yours) I see the barrell blur and the complete weight shift at different points in the swing. As I stated before, my understanding of your definition of "go" is a single moment in the swing, not the whole swing itself.

This is where I see the contradiction.

I have no problem with you teaching the "go" move. The three mechanics that you speak of (barrell blur, weight shift, and lateral tilt) are all good, IMO. I just believe that they happen at different points in the swing, and not all at the same time.

The reason for the dispute is there is a school of hitting that demands that your hips "stay closed" until "go".....and that "go" is a hip move. That by staying closed, you have more distance over which to apply force. That the load, that is unloaded at "go", is a pelvic load.

None of the above is true.

Video of the best hitters in the world confirms it.

The load, that is unloaded at "go", is the stretch between the upper and lower body. Which is created by separation. The hips opening against the upper body and hands "hold" on the system.

The video of 5 or 6 of the best hitters who have ever played the game, in this thread, confirms that the hips get a running start and open long before "go". The Posada clip is very telling. In some cases there is up to 8 frames of opening before the hitter makes a commitment to swing.

IF the go move was a hip move.....then the only reasonable conclusion would be that Chipper Jones would have a frame count between 12-15 frames.

The hips are clearly opening before any commitment is made in each of the swings posted. And not just a frame or so. Not just .2 seconds.

quote:

Is "go" the moment in the swing where you decide to swing or the motion of the entire swing?

This is a good question and the answer will confirm why the ".2 seconds of separation theory" is inaccurate. What he is proclaiming is simply the natural delay between a mental thought and the actual execution of the mental thought. And/or the delay in the chain connecting it's parts. The hips always move first. I can produce clips where the goal is to turn the hands only from an athletic position...aggressively....and the hips will move first. There is no denying that there is a delay whether it is neurological or muscular or a combination of both. There is no denying that when you attempt to do swing without separation, the hips will move an instant before everything else. And, the bat does not launch simultaneously with the thought to launch.

quote:

To me, you have made the impression that "go" is the moment where the swing reaches the point of no return.

"go" is the commitment to swing. Commitment to swing does not mean completed swing. Obviously....even bonds swing takes at least 3 frames to execute. We are talking about frame count. The subject of this conversation means the swing doesn't happen in one frame. There is a commitment to swing. Then, there is the swing. And, for professional players it takes about 3-5 frames to complete.

quote:

Where I believe that you do contradict yourself is where you combine the barrell blur and weight shift happening at the same time.

They both start at the same time or very very near it. If there is a difference it's too fine for me to determine.

quote:

You defined weight shift as "complete weight shift" in the "hitting" thread, did you not?

If I did let me go into more detail. The "go" move is the push off the rear foot that creats the weight shift. I don't believe I've ever said that "go" means a completed weight shift. I have said that the weight shift commitment is at "go". The commitment to commit the weight is at "go"....with no ability to return.

I have said "go" is instantaneous. The energy to produce "go" is instantaneous. As instantaneous as one's body can produce it. But, the time it takes to get from the rear foot to the firm front side, and completely off the rear foot is not instantaneous.

quote:

After looking at many many clips (most of yours) I see the barrell blur and the complete weight shift at different points in the swing.

That's because they are. But the energy that produces that move....the "go" move is instantaneous. It has to be.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Richard, I wanted to make another post in reference to "quickly," I guess your remark was in humor. I didn't suggest you did this without giving it due consideration. While I disagree with a lot of what you believe, I also don't think you jump into it without a sincere effort. I do still disagree. Oil and water. That's ok as long as civility rules the day.

I learned long ago that civility means don't ask for evidence. And if you do don't expect it. And if they say they will produce it, still don't expect it.

In other words.....what happened to the "more later".

lol

CoachB25, just my opinion, but, at baseball fever you got that guy Jake screwing the whole thing up..............He does not look for the truth.........He will ban anyone who proves his hitting beliefs to be wrong....

He keeps it very one-sided over there............

Start the stride early and learn how to kill some time if you need to.........

What is early, you ask???....Well, earlier than you think you need to........

Oh, and create lots of stretch...........Lots and lots of stretch.........

quote:

creating separation between the two hemispheres

What is the best way to teach this. Do you know of a successful way to describe the "feel" of what is shown by the high level swing in regards to creating the stretch.

Here is Pujols doing the same exact thing from a no stride technique.

Which has led many a internet guru to "miss" the high level pattern.



Pujols "appears" to shift weight as he rolls up onto his toe and then rotate. But....does he?

He starts in an already "leg reached" or "foot reached" position that Bonds and Howard stride to. Their weight is back....foot reaches out.....weight shifts at "go".

In Pujol's case....his foot is already out there....he just rolls up onto the toe.....still no weight there....the hips open early...separation created.....then at "go" he shifts the weight and rotates.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

creating separation between the two hemispheres

What is the best way to teach this. Do you know of a successful way to describe the "feel" of what is shown by the high level swing in regards to creating the stretch.

Guys....this is not that hard.

Yes....it is different than most everyone has been taught on the internet.

The main thing is to ALLOW it to happen.

Practice by standing on the rear leg and swinging the front leg open while maintaining closed shoulders. Exaggerate it to get it moving. Then fine tune it. Concentrate on feeling the abs/lower torso tighten due to the opposite forces. Upper going/holding one way....lower turning the other way.

This was the drill...



This was the game result...



This kid had never hit a HR before in his life. This summer he hit 6. This was his first ever.

Notice how far open the hips get against closed shoulders before launch. Notice he keeps the weight over the rear leg until "go".

When done correctly the rear leg will feel like a pedestal that the hips rotate on. The ball of the femur of the rear leg is stable and the hips sit on it and rotate around it as they open and then at "go" there is a push from that rear leg/knee through the hip that pushes you into a firm front side.

I can not overstress the "mechanical advantage" that you gain by using your body against itself...using the barrel to produce resistance that the body separates against.

It is WAY more powerful than brute strength rotation. And WAY quicker to the ball.

It isn't even close.

I guarantee anyone who throws worth a d a m n already does it.....when throwing. The creation of separation in hitting is almost identical to the creation of separation when throwing. Obviously, the swing itself is different than the throw. But the preswing stuff is very very similar.

quote:

I guarantee anyone who throws worth a d a m n already does it.....when throwing. The creation of separation in hitting is almost identical to the creation of separation when throwing. Obviously, the swing itself is different than the throw. But the preswing stuff is very very similar.

I agree. I pretty much stay away from the lower body. Once we realized that the stride, shift and rotation were similar enough to his pitching stride, shift and rotation, we turned our attention to finding a consistent launch point and swing plane.

Years of "pull the knob to the ball" kind of stuff had to be undone. The most difficult part was getting him on board in believing a change had to be made. In spite of his less than high level swing, he was still successful. That made the "sell" of change more difficult.

We are focusing on shoulder tilt (and, as you refer to, hand torque) to really change the barrel from tilt toward pitcher into the lower plane, and hand rotation toward ball in a nice home run swing path.

But our focus is on consistent launch point and swing plane. Your videos and discussions regarding hands and shoulders (and separation) have contributed greatly toward that goal.

Thanks. Good to have members willing to share great stuff without it being withheld due to proprietary rights.

quote:

Originally posted by Loose Cannon:

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

creating separation between the two hemispheres

What is the best way to teach this. Do you know of a successful way to describe the "feel" of what is shown by the high level swing in regards to creating the stretch.

Guys....this is not that hard.

Yes....it is different than most everyone has been taught on the internet.

The main thing is to ALLOW it to happen.

Practice by standing on the rear leg and swinging the front leg open while maintaining closed shoulders. Exaggerate it to get it moving. Then fine tune it. Concentrate on feeling the abs/lower torso tighten due to the opposite forces. Upper going/holding one way....lower turning the other way.

This was the drill...



This was the game result...



This kid had never hit a HR before in his life. This summer he hit 6. This was his first ever.

Notice how far open the hips get against closed shoulders before launch. Notice he keeps the weight over the rear leg until "go".

When done correctly the rear leg will feel like a pedestal that the hips rotate on. The ball of the femur of the rear leg is stable and the hips sit on it and rotate around it as they open and then at "go" there is a push from that rear leg/knee through the hip that pushes you into a firm front side.

I can not overstress the "mechanical advantage" that you gain by using your body against itself...using the barrel to produce resistance that the body separates against.

It is WAY more powerful than brute strength rotation. And WAY quicker to the ball.

It isn't even close.

I guarantee anyone who throws worth a d a m n already does it.....when throwing. The creation of separation in hitting is almost identical to the creation of separation when throwing. Obviously, the swing itself is different than the throw. But the preswing stuff is very very similar.

congrats to brandon, i know the kid works hard,,

Evidence?

Dmac or bbscout for those not in the know was a MLB scout. He posted on several sites under different names and on this site, he was greatly appreciated and was a valuable member. His passing shocked us all and you can find a thread under a search for bbscout to read up on him impact upon others and contributions on this site.

Richard wants to use “go” as the point of frame counts to determine efficiency in the swing and I opt to lean toward what this MLB Scout used. He said, regarding counting frames:

“I basically do it the same way as Steve, except I tie in the footplant and first bathead movement together. Most of the time the bathead will start moving when the foot is planted solidly, but not always. If the hitter picks up the change or something other than a fastball he will usually have a slight delay (about 1 frame) before the bat starts to move. In that case, I will go on the first bathead movement. For the most part, I go on first bathead movement, but the good hitters have it going at the same time the foot is firmly planted, so you will get the same count either way if the hitter is sitting fastball and gets a fastball.
Those are in his words unedited. To be sure, frame count IS ONLY ONE CRITERIA FOR DETERMINING AN EFFICIENT SWING. You still have to have the ability to hit the ball. In making this point, Encinides, on another site, reminded everyone that bbscout (dmac) made a comment with regards to hitting and frame count that “Vlad” had a 5 frame swing and that his son had had a 4 frame swing but it “sucked.” He then mentioned that he had worked with his son and now it was around a 5 frame swing. Thus, and again, making the point that frame count is simply one tool. The necessity then is to have a “tool” or “measurement” that is approximate to a standard. As I have stated before, I can tell when the heel plants or the bat tip moves. I’m less comfortable when I think I can tell that a hitter is beyond the point of no return. I’m sure many of us have seen MLB hitters get far into the swing process and check a swing to the point that they have cause injury or damaged equipment. I would suggest that they were beyond that mythical “go.”

Evidence?

You posted this video of your son:


There is a tremendous amount of EVIDENCE not included in these videos – pitch speed, pitch location, etc. One simple explanation, although there could be many, for the open hips on the right is that the pitch was inside. In the pitch on the left, the pitch appears to be middle outside. Important EVIDENCE when discussing and comparing two swings.

With regards to EVIDENCE, one of the people that frequents your site made the comment that when using Dmac’s system that it isn’t unusual for many MLB hitters to have 5.5 or greater frame counts. He referenced his opinion that some have 7.5 using that method. He then posted video EVIDENCE to support his conclusion. However, when others downloaded that EVIDENCE (video) and the posted it in a larger version, it became apparent that on the screen one could see the speed of the pitch. It was 80 mph. Dmac’s process, which he clearly defined, required fastballs. Was this a simple error by that poster or was this voodoo video EVIDENCE.

“EVIDENCE” would be suspect as proof since posters can easily reference the countless videos posted by you in support of another philosophy, doggedly attacked others, and submitted that anyone who didn’t see the EVIDENCE right in front of them and demonstrated in the video was … You were as Emphatically right then as you profess to be now. Says a lot about “EVIDENCE.”


Separation:

The concept of “separation” exist, in large part, due to semantics and not physical practice. I would agree that perhaps a part of the argument might be in duration. People who then don’t agree with the phrase “separation” make distinctions based upon kinetic links which can’t be seperated. I can’t think of any person that swings a bat that doesn’t create separation in terms of basic kinematics (The study of how an object, in this case, hitter, change with time.) in measurements of segment differentials of movement while attempting acceleration or deceleration. In short, no one that I know who promotes a sense of rotational hitting would assert, as you suggest, that you draw a straight line referencing the back shoulder and hip and then say that they will remain in that relationship for the entire swing process. The “Rotational Mechanics” of the body state that there is a relationship between the hips and the shoulder (or any torso part) due to the bone and muscle structure. In other words, your muscles are NOT like rubber bands. They attach via tendons to bones and so, that muscle/bone relationship has a measurement that can not be extended without injury. (Please pardon me if some of this is wordy. I’m using my old anatomy notes and they are at best hard to read.) I believe that P-a-u-l N. stated from his research that, “From a real-world perspective is virtually impossible to "practice" effective separation. Because high-level players exhibit no more than 1 to 1/2 frames (30 frames per second or less than.05 seconds) of separation between hips opening (initiating rotation) and shoulders following (rotating).” That was using Dmac’s frame count. I believe he went further on to say that swinging a bat is a ballistic activity wherein if you think about it, you inhibit the process. Adair’s rock on a rope analogy” is essentially this demonstrated in practice.

Dan Lorenz, in a recent article mentioned that there is a finite and definite relationship between the hips and shoulders. Dan Lorenz, MS, PT, ATC/L, CSCS who works with the Kansas City Chiefs describes the Serape Effect as, “The connection from the hip to the shoulder is analogous to the muscles of the trunk and their ability to help rotation occur within the trunk. These muscles are the rhomboids, serratus anterior, and the external/internal obliques.” Collectively, contraction of these muscles enable us to remain upright, and yes, function in the swing process.

Doctor T. Inohiza (Sp) in 2003 wrote an article about the muscles and skeleton and baseball. In that article he suggested that if you thought of the relationship of the pelvic region and the shoulders via the torso during the swing process, it was comparable to making a cast while fishing. The base of the rod will move first but then, the tip will soon follow. Because of the nature of the rod, the tips response is almost instantaneous. Ask yourself if that isn’t what you see with these videos of MLB hitters. How many people reading this thread fired their hips while cognitively telling their shoulders to wait? Then, told them to “go.” (BTW, Dr. Inohiza suggest that there isn’t as much of a “stretch” of the muscles as there is a “twist” of the muscles.)



Image of Serape effect:

The brain can not tell an individual muscle group to function. All relations are based upon contractions. One of the best analogies of the core muscles is that they are like a transmission of a car, they can slow the process down some but you don’t want to use them as a brake.

I would suggest that all give this post serious thought when thinking about any “EVIDENCE” presented. Posters have a way of making the EVIDENCE fit their argument. Please forgive me for the length of this post. I might, in closing, point out that if anyone mentioned much of what is posted here by Richard, myself etc. to MLB players, they'd laugh their butts off.

make major leaguers laugh their butts off? Wanna make em really laugh..tell them the hands just hold the bat..that ought to just "kill em".The

'check swing" clips show ALOT ...alot of un connection..and alot of seperation..

Did anyone notice the absence of talk about the clips of the major leaguers?

The clips that clearly show the hips open long before any commitment to swing.

The clips that absolutely positively discredit certain hitting theories.

Did you see any comments about the number of frames Chipper and Bonds and Howard must have if you start counting when the hips begin to open? If the hips are the "go" then those frames must be counted.

I didn't either.

quote:

Doctor T. Inohiza

Who did he play for?

quote:

Dan Lorenz

What was his BA?

You asked for EVIDENCE. Instead of giving my opinion, I took the time to dig out my college stuff, read some other notes I've kept for some time, look up sources to make sure I was as accurate as possible, present viable explainations for what some demonstrate in video, and cite the works of people that have presented and continue to research the human body. I didn't leave it at a simple attack and a you vs me war which will, in the end, wind up poorly for you.

Guess I took a lot of time today being serious about your request for EVIDENCE. I should have reminded myself that you'd regress to those same old tatics:

Refuters

To all others, I hope you appreciate my post.

Nice try B25.

Are you building a file?

Here is evidence of hitting mechanics.

Evidence that the hitting theory you subscribe to does not match video of the best hitters in the world.





Both of these hitters get their hips open long before any commitment to swing.

The video is not semantics. It is physical practice.

quote:

The “Rotational Mechanics” of the body state that there is a relationship between the hips and the shoulder (or any torso part) due to the bone and muscle structure. In other words, your muscles are NOT like rubber bands. They attach via tendons to bones and so, that muscle/bone relationship has a measurement that can not be extended without injury.

Are you suggesting this is evidence that there is no separation in the swing?

quote:

I believe that P-a-u-l N. stated from his research that, “From a real-world perspective is virtually impossible to "practice" effective separation. Because high-level players exhibit no more than 1 to 1/2 frames (30 frames per second or less than.05 seconds) of separation between hips opening (initiating rotation) and shoulders following (rotating).”

Who did Paul ***** play for. I believe the record shows he had less than 10 at bat his entire life.....and those were at a below high school level.

Does it surprise you that someone who practices pseudo-science....and believes the hips should remain closed until "go", contrary to the video evidence of the best in the world, would make statements against separation.

Is he the best authority you can come up with? Someone who has never been in the batters box?

And.....his 1 to 1.5 frames of separation statement has been shown to be wrong by every video clip I've posted.

Duh.

I sometimes feel a perverse enjoyment from these discussions. Yet, I think we all gain knowledge from them.

Yup, perverse and fulfilled. And, if my wife or kids check on me, I'm only on a baseball site. That's why I like the HSBBW.

Chris, Nyls, Jerry. Nope. No Paul.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/search.asp

quote:

How many people reading this thread fired their hips while cognitively telling their shoulders to wait? Then, told them to “go.”

I once owned a nightclub and we had one of those "smoke" machines.

It could not compete with the fog of information put out by some people.

Where in this thread have I have said the hips fire as the shoulders hold and then later they (shoulders) are told to "go".

This is another strawman argument. Say I said something that I didn't say. Prove it wrong. Then use that to discredit me.

No where have I said what you've posted.

Which means you are dishonest or don't understand the post.

quote:

(BTW, Dr. Inohiza suggest that there isn’t as much of a “stretch” of the muscles as there is a “twist” of the muscles.)

Again......rampant use of the strawman technique. No where have I talked about the elasticity of the muscles.

However.....I would have to conclude....that B25 believes stretching exercises are useless.

How many posts of that video of Bonds did you make suggesting it was exactly the perfect replica of that philosophy I believe in?

300? PERHAPS 500? Now, you want to use that exact same video as EVIDENCE that against what you presented for 300-500 posts? Come on!

Any poster out there that can put the video of bonds up, in it's entirety, please do so and count the frames per dmac's method and see first what his frame count is and secondly how long it takes those shoulders to move. By the way, at heel plant, I do believe I see the shoulders beginning to move.

Seperation and whether I believe it or not. I see the Serape Effect and those muscles. I know that they have a relationship that they have to maintain. I know that anymovement of the hip in the swing process must be followed in a very short amount of time by the shoulders. I know this because they are joined at so many places.

Per the stretching comment, I would hope that fellow posters now realize the length you'd go to make an absurd comment.

Oh, great comment on the bar. Now, how about posting some research done by scientist. Let's see, the bar keeper or the scientist who specialize in sport explaining what the muscles do? Tough decision!

Diversion.

The issue isn't frame count. I don't care how you count them.

The issue of this thread is separation.

The video of Bonds clearly shows separation.....over several frames.....no matter how many times you say it doesn't.

Here is the entire video you requested.



From the time Bonds knee goes forward, his hips are opening. Several frames are involved. Not 1-1.5 frames. Bond's hands are raising as his hips open. Clearly he has made no commitment to swing and yet the hips are opening. Unless you believe there are two go moves, which is really not possible, then that proves there is no "go" move in the lower body. It is in the hands.

quote:

How many posts of that video of Bonds did you make suggesting it was exactly the perfect replica of that philosophy I believe in?

Please explain the relevance of this statement. All it proves 1) that at one time I couldn't see what's happening either. And that I bit on the theory just like you have. And, 2) that you continue to ignore what is presented right in front of you.

As everyone on the net knows....you have to be around a while before you can start to "see" things in the swing that others can see. Took me a while....but now it's clear as a bell.

As I stated earlier.....the more fundamental issue can be framed as "what is the "go" move.

They believe it is a "firing" of the hips.....(By the way....notice he hasn't found a quote from me to support his argument that I promote a hip firing, a shoulder hold, then a shoulder/hand go.)

Video clearly shows the bat is launced by the hands.....after the hips have cleared, separated and created the stretch.

quote:

how about posting some research done by scientist

When you post something by a scientist who has spent considerable time in the batter box, I'll listen.

My question for you is......why won't you pick up a bat and a video camera and try to duplicate Bonds' sequence.

Your leader tried, struggled, and then abandoned his quest. Do you know why?

I have stated several times.....you will "feel" before you "see". And you won't feel if you don't attempt to duplicate the move. Therefore you will never see.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
CoachB25, just my opinion, but, at baseball fever you got that guy Jake screwing the whole thing up..............He does not look for the truth.........He will ban anyone who proves his hitting beliefs to be wrong....

He keeps it very one-sided over there............

I'm suprised to find that I have a "belief" to be disproved. You and I obviously have never had a conversation. I am usually accused of the opposite.

In two years at BBF I have only banned 3 forumers (I don't count spammers). And the reason I banned those 3 was because of their contentiousness and their inability to discuss an item without attacking others ... and that only happened after repeated warnings.

I am 15, but it seems that loose is splitting hairs. I have been on here for 5 days looking at everything I could find about hitting and what I came up with that as long as you get to the ball correctly all else is up to your style. I have found everything on the web that has MLB players doing alot of different stuff from postion of hands, bat angles and stances. The one thing in common is point of contact with all of them. That to me is most important.

Also, Loose I think you make a lot of good points but why do you act like you are the only expert about hitting and take every shot at someone when they say something or disagree.

Example: I posted my swing and you had nothing but negative comments about my swing, that is fine but when people wrote about the the good things about my swing, you would copy what they said and add things like no disrespect but I would disagree. You have your son in 2 or 3 threads acting like you must swing this way are you wont be any good. My opinion his swing is nothing special, but if he has success thats all that matters. I hope I dont offend anyone, it just seems to be getting out of hand or maybe its just me...

Jake,

Your bias is glaringly obvious.

I suppose, so is mine.

But, I'm not the moderator either.