I would deem it just a huge cyber pile of meaningless garbage theory.
Just junk.
IMO.
I thought I smelled dog poop...........
Fundamentals
Upper power is generated by the triceps and forearms in the swing.
Additional momentum and power is generated by the lower body in the weight shift and hip turn.
It seems to me that the difference in the two styles lies mainly in one being a strong front side swing while the second is a strong back side swing.
Strong front side swing takes longer to develop. This gives rise to its deficiencies. It takes longer to develop, thus the batter has to commit sooner, losing power while making adjustment to pitch recognition.
Strong back side allows a faster swing with greater balance and a longer time allowed for pitch recognition and location. No adjustment in mid-swing would be necessary.
Upper power is generated by the triceps and forearms in the swing.
Additional momentum and power is generated by the lower body in the weight shift and hip turn.
It seems to me that the difference in the two styles lies mainly in one being a strong front side swing while the second is a strong back side swing.
Strong front side swing takes longer to develop. This gives rise to its deficiencies. It takes longer to develop, thus the batter has to commit sooner, losing power while making adjustment to pitch recognition.
Strong back side allows a faster swing with greater balance and a longer time allowed for pitch recognition and location. No adjustment in mid-swing would be necessary.
Fofo knows what I consider the power sources to be........
Richard has argued with fofo for a long time..........So has Tom and Swingbuilder....
Fofo hollers "strawman" when anyone gives him answers......He's done it more than once in this thread......It's his mode of operation..
Then, he makes accusations which he knows to be untrue.......Also, his mode of operation......
LOL
I had one post deleted in this thread already........Siding with Richard does have it's drawbacks....
Richard has argued with fofo for a long time..........So has Tom and Swingbuilder....
Fofo hollers "strawman" when anyone gives him answers......He's done it more than once in this thread......It's his mode of operation..
Then, he makes accusations which he knows to be untrue.......Also, his mode of operation......
LOL
I had one post deleted in this thread already........Siding with Richard does have it's drawbacks....
quote:It's the butt that's doing this heavy lifting in large part, IMO.
My response to this posted by fofo got deleted.......
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Fofo knows what I consider the power sources to be........
Richard has argued with fofo for a long time..........
Fofo hollers "strawman" when anyone gives him answers......He's done it more than once in this thread......It's his mode of operation..
Then, he makes accusations which he knows to be untrue.......Also, his mode of operation......
LOL
I had one post deleted in this thread already........Siding with Richard does have it's drawbacks....
This is a diversion. I don't know what you believe to be the lower and upper power source. Those terms are so vague and meaningless, that it's impossible to discern. Perhaps that's the point. Simply answer the question or say you don't know what you mean.
Is that the thinking that gave rise to the expression 'back asswards'?
quote:This is a diversion.
Another fofo term he likes to use.....He's done it for years......
LOL
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:This is a diversion.
Another fofo term he likes to use.....He's done it for years......
LOL
More diversion and you appear not to like it mostly because it appears that you've taken a defensive posture here.
Are you capable of answering the question? If so, answer it. If not, say you are not capable of answering it.
quote:It's the butt that's doing this heavy lifting in large part, IMO.
Fofo, IYO, what is the butt lifting that is so heavy????
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:It's the butt that's doing this heavy lifting in large part, IMO.
Fofo, IYO, what is the butt lifting that is so heavy????
That's a classic. Tell ya what, answer my question, if you are capable, and I'll answer yours.
I this a PCR swing?
quote:That's a classic. Tell ya what, answer my question, if you are capable, and I'll answer yours.
You know my answer........
But, I can't figure out what you consider to be so heavy that the butt is lifting?....
quote:Originally posted by XV:
I this a PCR swing?
Based on the definition of the term by it's creator, I would say yes. That of course assumes that I understand the creator's definition. I think I do.
What do you know about PCR? What does it mean to you and what/who has formed your beliefs on the term?
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:That's a classic. Tell ya what, answer my question, if you are capable, and I'll answer yours.
You know my answer........
But, I can't figure out what you consider to be so heavy that the butt is lifting?....
No I don't, that's why I asked. Keep playing games and avoid answering the question. If you're not capable of answering it, say so.
I'm not surprised you can't figure it out, but like I said, I'll happily answer your question once you answer mine.
quote:I'm not surprised you can't figure it out......
Does this mean you're not sure about your answer?
When you say butt, do you mean muscle groups or a certain muscle, or maybe something else????
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:I'm not surprised you can't figure it out......
Does this mean you're not sure about your answer?
When you say butt, do you mean muscle groups or a certain muscle, or maybe something else????
Mark -- as I said, answer my question and we can move to your question.
Per the comment on deleted posts, I have not removed any post and hope that an explaination was sent your way as to why the post was deleted.
My point is the Hanson principal does not seem to apply to lead leg opening action. Apparently with that action that we clearly see in so many power hitters we are just to assume that this hitter has mastered function. Pay no attention to the form.
Incognito said learning to use the pelvic region is better for kids, but the MLB players rarely hit with knock-kneed no separation, swings. I strongly disagree with his statement and find it to be a total waste of time.
Incognito said learning to use the pelvic region is better for kids, but the MLB players rarely hit with knock-kneed no separation, swings. I strongly disagree with his statement and find it to be a total waste of time.
Pronk, if I were inclined, but I'm not, I could go to our archives and show perhaps 30 videos one noted multiple identitied poster made of MLB players assuming a position not unlike knee chase. One could argue as much in the following keeping in mind that I subscribe to the philosophy that we can all see what we want to see in video to support our biases:
Pujos when he tilts that front knee backwards.
Bonds when he brings his knees together:
and yes, we could make the same with this young man as he does his front leg lift:
I view this type of action as necessary to make a hitter more efficient. More importantly, hitters I've worked with have gotten quicker. JMHO!
BTW, I'm quite certain that you won't view those videos in the same way but posted both Pujos and Bonds since they were the subjects said poster used multiple times.
Pujos when he tilts that front knee backwards.
Bonds when he brings his knees together:
and yes, we could make the same with this young man as he does his front leg lift:
I view this type of action as necessary to make a hitter more efficient. More importantly, hitters I've worked with have gotten quicker. JMHO!
BTW, I'm quite certain that you won't view those videos in the same way but posted both Pujos and Bonds since they were the subjects said poster used multiple times.
quote:Originally posted by Pronk:
My point is the Hanson principal does not seem to apply to lead leg opening action. Apparently with that action that we clearly see in so many power hitters we are just to assume that this hitter has mastered function. Pay no attention to the form.
It's not that it doesn't seem to apply to the lead leg opening action, it's that it actually doesn't apply, IMO. As I said, the lead leg doesn't open in a vacuum....all by itself. That much is pretty evident to me. The form is only as good as one's ability to recogonize it. I think you've fallen short.
quote:Incognito said learning to use the pelvic region is better for kids, but the MLB players rarely hit with knock-kneed no separation, swings. I strongly disagree with his statement and find it to be a total waste of time.
No, that's not exactly what Incognito said and I won't try to read his mind or read into what he said like you did. Best to let the words stand for themselves. Not to mention the fact that this is once again a strawman which is useless and no doubt a waste of time.
Telling this kid to open the lead isn't going to help. In fact, that's what the kid is doing.
quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
Pronk, if I were inclined, but I'm not, I could go to our archives and show perhaps 30 videos one noted multiple identitied poster made of MLB players assuming a position not unlike knee chase. One could argue as much in the following keeping in mind that I subscribe to the philosophy that we can all see what we want to see in video to support our biases:
Pujos when he tilts that front knee backwards.
Bonds when he brings his knees together:
Nice job CB25. This is a good illustration of the knees moving together on Pujols and Bonds. It's not "hey kid, open the lead leg" stuff. You can't discount a cue, because it may work at any given time with any given player. But I don't think it matches form or function.
quote:Telling this kid to open the lead isn't going to help. In fact, that's what the kid is doing.
Now, there's a strawman for you.......
That kid isn't loading the hands against the hips....The front leg is working just fine....
The upper half is the kid's problem....Along with a too early weight shift...
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:Telling this kid to open the lead isn't going to help. In fact, that's what the kid is doing.
Now, there's a strawman for you.......
That kid isn't loading the hands against the hips....The front leg is working just fine....
The upper half is the kid's problem....Along with a too early weight shift...
So how would you fix it?
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:Telling this kid to open the lead isn't going to help. In fact, that's what the kid is doing.
Now, there's a strawman for you.......
That kid isn't loading the hands against the hips....The front leg is working just fine....
The upper half is the kid's problem....Along with a too early weight shift...
No, it's not a strawman. You'd have to know the difference to...never mind.
Wow...that's pretty amazing. That player isn't doing much of anything right especially the lead leg. This, I believe, is what Incognito was getting at with his comments.
Now, time to answer my question. Why are you avoiding it? Do you not know the answer?
quote:So how would you fix it?
I would get the bat vertical (out of plane) and the hands lower in the stance....
The stride is load against the back hip and reach out with the front leg as the front hip opens.....Stretch the front hip against the back hip......Raise the hands to the armpit during the stride....Tip the bat (raise the back elbow) to load the hands....Torque the bat handle at "go" which will create the arc as the front leg fans open........Then, shift the weight and let the hands and arms bring the arc forward.....
Tfox, the fix for the kid is to change the power source for the upper half from the arms to the hands........
Create the arc by torquing the bat handle between the hands.......Then, let the arms and hands carry the arc forward to the ball and in front of the hitter as the weight shifts and the arms go to extension...
Create the arc by torquing the bat handle between the hands.......Then, let the arms and hands carry the arc forward to the ball and in front of the hitter as the weight shifts and the arms go to extension...
quote:That player isn't doing much of anything right especially the lead leg.
As Pronk referenced in his post, according to the Hanson principle, the kid is right on with the lead leg......
I guess this is another one where the Hanson principle doesn't apply.....Oh well....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:So how would you fix it?
I would get the bat vertical (out of plane) and the hands lower in the stance....
The stride is load against the back hip and reach out with the front leg as the front hip opens.....Stretch the front hip against the back hip......Raise the hands to the armpit during the stride....Tip the bat (raise the back elbow) to load the hands....Torque the bat handle at "go" which will create the arc as the front leg fans open........Then, shift the weight and let the hands and arms bring the arc forward.....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Tfox, the fix for the kid is to change the power source for the upper half from the arms to the hands........
Create the arc by torquing the bat handle between the hands.......Then, let the weight shift carry the arc forward to the ball and in front of the hitter as the arms go to extension...
The kid is already doing all of what you describe. That's what makes it such a bad swing. Wow. I understand why you don't want to answer my question.
quote:The kid is already doing all of what you describe.
Fofo, I say this not to be argumentative, but as the truth........Again, here's the difference between me and you.......
I learned your way.....I have hit against pitching your way and know how your way feels..........I can recognize your way in amateur hitters.....
You don't know our way....You have never felt our way.....You can't recognize our way.......
CoachB25, says it all the time and it is true....Mostly, we see what we want to see in watching video.......So, the real test for us is to hit against live pitching.....
I've done it both ways.........Have you?
Personally,I would isolate the hips and forget the rest at this point,the hips are the problem imo and that is where the focus should start.
His hips are doing nothing and his hands are not going to get them turning,at the right time.JMHO
His hips are doing nothing and his hands are not going to get them turning,at the right time.JMHO
quote:His hips are doing nothing and his hands are not going to get them turning.
Something's got to square up the bat on the ball and on time..........Do you really think the hips can do that?
The bottom half truly is slave to the top half.....Get the power sources right, then you've got something that can work....Get the power sources wrong and you're in trouble......
If the hands load against the hips, then the hands will get the hips going.........
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
If the hands load against the hips, then the hands will get the hips going.........
But it looks to me that his hips have no clue what to do or when to do it.
How do you teach that? Just telling them to do it is not teaching.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:The kid is already doing all of what you describe.
Fofo, I say this not to be argumentative, but as the truth........Again, here's the difference between me and you.......
I learned your way.....I have hit against pitching your way and know how your way feels..........I can recognize your way in amateur hitters.....
You don't know our way....You have never felt our way.....You can't recognize our way.......
CoachB25, says it all the time and it is true....Mostly, we see what we want to see in watching video.......So, the real test for us is to hit against live pitching.....
It's one fallacious argument after another with you guys. There's no way I can feel what you feel any better than you can feel what I feel. And because I can't feel what you feel, I can't recognize what you feel. No kidding!!
What's ironic here is that you walk away from the very principal that you've evoked in this thread -- Hanson. I guess it's easy to walk away from it considering that the kid is doing everything that you want to have the kids do and the swing is a mess.
quote:I've done it both ways.........Have you?
Yeah, when I realized almost 5 years ago that swing down was wrong, I went first to torque the handle. I moved on.
Once again, what is the lower power source and what is the upper power source as you called it, in your world?
4for4 or anyone else
How did you post that video of player swinging? I would love to post a clip of son taking a swing to get some evaluations. Sorry about the post a bit off subject.
How did you post that video of player swinging? I would love to post a clip of son taking a swing to get some evaluations. Sorry about the post a bit off subject.
quote:How do you teach that? Just telling them to do it is not teaching.
I show 'em.......Do what I do and feel it.....If we need a pitcher, I get one......
I always teach with pitching.....Even if it's whiffle balls up close......
Do you?
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:His hips are doing nothing and his hands are not going to get them turning.
Something's got to square up the bat on the ball and on time..........Do you really think the hips can do that?
The bottom half truly is slave to the top half.....Get the power sources right, then you've got something that can work....Get the power sources wrong and you're in trouble......
If the hands load against the hips, then the hands will get the hips going.........
Do you actually have any evidence for any of this. Once again, it's just one fallacy after another.
First, it's a hand/arm dominated swing already. Second, there is no involvement from the hips. See Pujols video in this thread as an example.
Am I on firm ground here in thinking, based on your prescription for this hitter, that you don't believe in the kinetic chain or biomechanics? Here on earth, is the baseball swing exempt from these things?
quote:Originally posted by gimages:
4for4 or anyone else
How did you post that video of player swinging? I would love to post a clip of son taking a swing to get some evaluations. Sorry about the post a bit off subject.
I'll walk you through it via PM so we don't clutter up the thread with this topic.
quote:Originally posted by tfox:
Personally,I would isolate the hips and forget the rest at this point,the hips are the problem imo and that is where the focus should start.
His hips are doing nothing and his hands are not going to get them turning,at the right time.JMHO
I think using the hips/pelvic region is completely foreign to this hitter, so your suggestion looks to be a sound approach to me. IOW, it's an area in the swing that requires a high level of focus right now.
Where is Loose Cannon? He would be fun to listen to tonight..... Did he get tossed back into the HSBBW clink?
