Separation Separated The High Level Swing From The Imposters

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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How do you teach that? Just telling them to do it is not teaching.

I show 'em.......Do what I do and feel it.....If we need a pitcher, I get one......

I always teach with pitching.....Even if it's whiffle balls up close......

Do you?

I am only involved with the very young,7-9 year olds.I mainly use T work and work on basic fundamentals as they have been taught to me.These kids are able to use some very simple hitting drills that will make any technique easier for them.

I am not arguing any hitting technique as being better than another(I don't have that background),I just see some real problems trying to teach what you are saying to someone that has no basic understanding of hitting.

What kind of teaching techniques are involved? You said you show them,is that it? Any drills,que's,anything?

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You said you show them,is that it?

Is that it?????????

LOL

Maybe you should stick with Fofo.....I think he's your guy.....

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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You said you show them,is that it?

Is that it?????????

LOL

Maybe you should stick with Fofo.....I think he's your guy.....

It's most certainly not you because you can't answer a single question.

Once again, what is the lower power source and what is the upper power source as you called it, in your world?

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Where is Loose Cannon? He would be fun to listen to tonight..... Did he get tossed back into the HSBBW clink?

I think he is back in his cell.......Bread and water and no outside contact.....

You are right, we would have had alot of fun watching him and Fofo go at it.........

Fofo was naughty tonight....Santa must've forgotten him this year.......

No kinetic chain to wear around his neck.....And, no Elvis doll to study pelvic gyrations....

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It's most certainly not you.....

You're right......Take Tfox, please.....Give him some Kool-Aid.....And, a hitting tee....Thank you...

LOL

It was fun....

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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It's most certainly not you.....

You're right......Take Tfox, please.....Give him some Kool-Aid.....

LOL

I realize that this is a weakness in you. Try to focus on the questions.

What is the lower power source and what is the upper power source as you called it, in your world? Do you know?

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Originally posted by BlueDog:
I think he is back in his cell.......Bread and water and no outside contact.....

You don't say

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You are right, we would have had alot of fun watching him and Fofo go at it.........

No doubt, we would have seen things like "therefore" and "clearly."

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Fofo was naughty tonight....Santa must've forgotten him this year.......

No kinetic chain to wear around his neck.....And, no Elvis doll to study pelvic gyrations....

So things are different in your world here on earth. Tell us about the shoulder bypass if you can. That should be fun.

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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It's most certainly not you.....

You're right......Take Tfox, please.....Give him some Kool-Aid.....And, a hitting tee....Thank you...

LOL

It was fun....

My son't instructor utilizes Epstein teachings for the most part but he doesn't teach it to the letter.He does have some of his own ideas and uses them effectively.

I have taken some of those drills to the teams I help coach and worked with a few that have obvious mechanical flaws that these drills have helped.

One kid is a lunger,I used the weight back drill and it has greatly helped him from lunging.

Another kid straightens his arms out completely as his first move,putting the bat on the shoulder and working the box helps that.


You make fun of T work,One of the GREATEST baseball players ever was struggling toward the end of his career and just had a bad game and was in a slump,he went in to the clubhouse and came out with a T after the game to work on his mechanics,if it is good enough for Cal Ripken,I believe it is good enough for anyone.


ALl I have done is ask questions on teaching methods because I like what I see in the mlb swings(who doesn't) that you and cannon keep eluding to but you can't give any techniques for teaching it.


How do you teach stretch and fire,separation?

I personally don't believe showing is a valuable or effective teaching method.In some cases it might be,especially at higher levels but what about the little ones trying to get there.

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Originally posted by 4for4:

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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So how would you fix it?

I would get the bat vertical (out of plane) and the hands lower in the stance....

The stride is load against the back hip and reach out with the front leg as the front hip opens.....Stretch the front hip against the back hip......Raise the hands to the armpit during the stride....Tip the bat (raise the back elbow) to load the hands....Torque the bat handle at "go" which will create the arc as the front leg fans open........Then, shift the weight and let the hands and arms bring the arc forward.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Tfox, the fix for the kid is to change the power source for the upper half from the arms to the hands........

Create the arc by torquing the bat handle between the hands.......Then, let the weight shift carry the arc forward to the ball and in front of the hitter as the arms go to extension...

The kid is already doing all of what you describe. That's what makes it such a bad swing. Wow. I understand why you don't want to answer my question.

wheres the vertical bat? cmon

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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......it is a yes,yes,yes no thought vs a no,no,no yes thought

It's neither.......

Your swing is slow and has no allowance for late adjustability......These two things are what keeps players from playing at the next level.......

You can tell that my swing is slow without having seen it? Now that is impressive.

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Originally posted by Pronk:

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Originally posted by Incog Nito:

First of all Richard, you know that the reason for having a young kid keep his front side closed is to force him/her to learn to use the muscles in the pelvic region to open the hips vs using the feet/legs to open the hips.It is a way to force a kid to learn how to use his hips correctly. You know this but I doubt you will admit it.

Yes I am sure Richard deep down inside believes we should be properly using the muscles of the pelvic region.

So let me ask after years and years of doing drills to learn this "efficient" movement, at what point do you say "OK kid you can open the front leg now".

There is a difference between doing drills and hitting and I believe that anyone with some common sense show know this. The point is to learn how and to keep trying to improve it (with drills) once the kid does learn how do it.

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Originally posted by Pronk:
My point is the Hanson principal does not seem to apply to lead leg opening action. Apparently with that action that we clearly see in so many power hitters we are just to assume that this hitter has mastered function. Pay no attention to the form.

Incognito said learning to use the pelvic region is better for kids, but the MLB players rarely hit with knock-kneed no separation, swings. I strongly disagree with his statement and find it to be a total waste of time.

Did I say that MLB hitters hit with knocked knees and no separation? Do you always put words in peoples mouths?

If you disagree that kids need to learn how to use the pelvic region better then just say so.

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Originally posted by Incog Nito:

Did I say that MLB hitters hit with knocked knees and no separation? Do you always put words in peoples mouths?

If you disagree that kids need to learn how to use the pelvic region better then just say so.

Ok I disagree. You made it sound as if Richard knows landing closed is better for kids and is purposely distorting when clearly he would not agree with that. So at least we can agree to disagree.

Pronk,

Are you trying to say that Richard wouldn't intentionally misrepresent or distort something to win an argument. If so, I think you are being naive.

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Originally posted by Pronk:

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Originally posted by Incog Nito:

Did I say that MLB hitters hit with knocked knees and no separation? Do you always put words in peoples mouths?

If you disagree that kids need to learn how to use the pelvic region better then just say so.

Ok I disagree. You made it sound as if Richard knows landing closed is better for kids and is purposely distorting when clearly he would not agree with that. So at least we can agree to disagree.

No, what I am saying is that Richard knows that having the front side closed is a method used in drills to teach the hitter how to learn to use the pelvic region to turn the body vs how most kids just simply turn the front foot open as in the clip of the kid in this thread.

This kid has turned the front foot and has near zero hip action. Do you believe that tipping the bat will get this kid's hips working? That the hands control the hips?

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Originally posted by ShawnLee:
Pronk,

Are you trying to say that Richard wouldn't intentionally misrepresent or distort something to win an argument. If so, I think you are being naive.

Richard posts MLB hitters video and backs it up. How is that misrepresenting? I'd say if anything he is "representing" and in such a way that it might lead one to question why they wouldn't want to open the hips and get some rearward arc in the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Incog Nito:

No, what I am saying is that Richard knows that having the front side closed is a method used in drills to teach the hitter how to learn to use the pelvic region to turn the body vs how most kids just simply turn the front foot open as in the clip of the kid in this thread.

This kid has turned the front foot and has near zero hip action. Do you believe that tipping the bat will get this kid's hips working? That the hands control the hips?

Why would you assume Richard thinks that using the pelvic region to turn the body is something he "knows" is correct. Just because he was taught that and learned it at one time doesn't mean he's secretly holding back knowing it's correct...

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Originally posted by Pronk:

quote:

Originally posted by Incog Nito:

No, what I am saying is that Richard knows that having the front side closed is a method used in drills to teach the hitter how to learn to use the pelvic region to turn the body vs how most kids just simply turn the front foot open as in the clip of the kid in this thread.

This kid has turned the front foot and has near zero hip action. Do you believe that tipping the bat will get this kid's hips working? That the hands control the hips?

Why would you assume Richard thinks that using the pelvic region to turn the body is something he "knows" is correct. Just because he was taught that and learned it at one time doesn't mean he's secretly holding back knowing it's correct...

Richard should stick to his positions then and quit misrepresenting others. That's what Shawn's getting at and you know that, or should know that. And then there's the issue of disagreeing.

The shoulder bypass is a perfect example. That's not at all consistent with either what the video shows or the kinetic link or biomechanics of the swing. And Richard isn't on to something new with the other stuff. The idea of the parts moving in sequence, accelerating and decelerating parts, momentum transfer....have all been talked and discussed by people like Englishbey, *****, Mankin...Professionals in the disciplines mentioned above like Siff, Adair, Carini and many studies that conclude things other than what Richard spouts.

quote:

Originally posted by Pronk:

quote:

Originally posted by Incog Nito:

No, what I am saying is that Richard knows that having the front side closed is a method used in drills to teach the hitter how to learn to use the pelvic region to turn the body vs how most kids just simply turn the front foot open as in the clip of the kid in this thread.

This kid has turned the front foot and has near zero hip action. Do you believe that tipping the bat will get this kid's hips working? That the hands control the hips?

Why would you assume Richard thinks that using the pelvic region to turn the body is something he "knows" is correct. Just because he was taught that and learned it at one time doesn't mean he's secretly holding back knowing it's correct...

You're not paying attention. What Richard knows is that it is the method of teaching, using the drills to force issues like with the kid in this post. Not a go into the box deal.

You didn't answer the question:

"Do you believe that tipping the bat will get this kid's hips working? That the hands control the hips?"

Are you avoiding it?

quote:

Originally posted by Pronk:

quote:

Originally posted by Incog Nito:

No, what I am saying is that Richard knows that having the front side closed is a method used in drills to teach the hitter how to learn to use the pelvic region to turn the body vs how most kids just simply turn the front foot open as in the clip of the kid in this thread.

This kid has turned the front foot and has near zero hip action. Do you believe that tipping the bat will get this kid's hips working? That the hands control the hips?

Why would you assume Richard thinks that using the pelvic region to turn the body is something he "knows" is correct. Just because he was taught that and learned it at one time doesn't mean he's secretly holding back knowing it's correct...

I did not assume that Richard knows it is the correct way. He tends to change his views so often that I wouldn't even try to keep up.

What I said was that he knows the reason for keeping the front side closed is to develop better pelvic action. IOW he knows it is a drill and he knows the theory behind it. He may or may not agree with it and I could care less what he believes about it.

What I do care about is the fact that he knows that it is a drill and not now and never has been declared as an absolute part of the swing as taught be Steve and others. He knows this and I suspect you know this as well.

Will tipping the bat help that kid learn how to turn his hips?

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Originally posted by wogdoggy:

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Originally posted by 4for4:

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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So how would you fix it?

I would get the bat vertical (out of plane) and the hands lower in the stance....

The stride is load against the back hip and reach out with the front leg as the front hip opens.....Stretch the front hip against the back hip......Raise the hands to the armpit during the stride....Tip the bat (raise the back elbow) to load the hands....Torque the bat handle at "go" which will create the arc as the front leg fans open........Then, shift the weight and let the hands and arms bring the arc forward.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Tfox, the fix for the kid is to change the power source for the upper half from the arms to the hands........

Create the arc by torquing the bat handle between the hands.......Then, let the weight shift carry the arc forward to the ball and in front of the hitter as the arms go to extension...

The kid is already doing all of what you describe. That's what makes it such a bad swing. Wow. I understand why you don't want to answer my question.

wheres the vertical bat? cmon

Yeah, get the bat vertical, that will fix it..

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Yeah, get the bat vertical, that will fix it..

Again, I know your way......I've swung a bat against pitching your way....

You have no clue about our way.....You've never swung a bat against pitching our way....

Neither has Fofo.........

I know, I know, instruct him that the only role the hands have in the swing is to hold the bat. Bat vertical and tipping sounds like pretty good advice.

Holding on to the bat and turning like heck is too slow against better than average pitching and doesn't allow for late adjustability....

How do I know?.....I've done it........

Blue Dog, just joking about the hands holding onto the bat.

Nails, I know......

My comment was meant for Icog Nito.......He doesn't have a clue about what loading the bat out of plane does for a hitter......

All he knows is hang on, bend from the waist and turn like heck.....

Him and Fofo have spent years learning how to rotate....Heck, they're still learning how....

You gotta love their persistence.....

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Will tipping the bat help that kid learn how to turn his hips?

Yes.......Loading the hands against the hips is what MLB hitters do..........

Blue Dog

I think I get what you're saying. Please confirm...or educate me.

Barrel loading means tipping, right? If you tip, you must untip, right?

This tipping/untipping occupies the upper body while the hips open.

That would be separation?

Right?

Just trying to get where you're coming from.

Tip, float and swivel the hands.

Mr. Jones, you are correct.......

And, welcome to the board, sir........

I get the feeling you could educate us.....

What exactly does "tipping" the bat mean, or how do you "tip" the bat?

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Originally posted by Flintoide:
What exactly does "tipping" the bat mean, or how do you "tip" the bat?

Let me repose it in Dmac's words. Dmac was actually bbscout on this site before passing on, however his legacy is carried on at this site with his two sons, and some of us guys teaching tip and rip at another site.

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If you want to do it, it needs to be taught, unless the player just happens to do it from the get go. Tipping does a couple of things that I like. It starts your bat in an upright (vertical) position which makes it much easier to then swing the bat and get some loft in your swing. If the tipping is done properly, it also gets the bathead a running start instead of swinging from a dead start that 95% of all amatuer players do.

Get your hands back about even with your back tittie and then move them away from your body about 10" and then tip the bathead out towards the pitcher and then swing it without stopping anywhere in between.

If you raise your hands to hit like Bonds, then start your hands about level with your back tittie. If you lower your hands to hit like Vlad, then start them above your back shoulder. In both cases the hands will be at about shoulder height when your front foot comes down, but the difference will be that you have the bathead already moving and you will be creating loft in your swing.

If you want to hit the ball on the ground, then don't pay any attention to what I have just said.

Here are some clips.
Running Start.

Even high-level slow-pitch softball batters utilize the mechanics of separation, forearm swivel, and running starts (tip and rip). Why do people refuse to see the same high-level pattern in MLB?

Flintoide, here is the most extreme "tipper" in MLB.

Why is it called a "running start"? Is that just in reference to the bat "tip"? What/where is the another site?

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Originally posted by Flintoide:
Why is it called a "running start"? Is that just in reference to the bat "tip"? What/where is the another site?

The running start refers to the early bat speed that is required to take a barrel that is tipped into the zone. The arc. The barrel has moved from vertical to the typical palm-up/palm down position at contact. A Segmented whip.

You should be able to visualize with the clips I sent the barrel going down and around the back shoulder and into the zone.

Pronk - XV, thanks for responding.

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Originally posted by Incog Nito:

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Originally posted by wogdoggy:

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Originally posted by 4for4:

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Originally posted by BlueDog:

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So how would you fix it?

I would get the bat vertical (out of plane) and the hands lower in the stance....

The stride is load against the back hip and reach out with the front leg as the front hip opens.....Stretch the front hip against the back hip......Raise the hands to the armpit during the stride....Tip the bat (raise the back elbow) to load the hands....Torque the bat handle at "go" which will create the arc as the front leg fans open........Then, shift the weight and let the hands and arms bring the arc forward.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Tfox, the fix for the kid is to change the power source for the upper half from the arms to the hands........

Create the arc by torquing the bat handle between the hands.......Then, let the weight shift carry the arc forward to the ball and in front of the hitter as the arms go to extension...

The kid is already doing all of what you describe. That's what makes it such a bad swing. Wow. I understand why you don't want to answer my question.

wheres the vertical bat? cmon

Yeah, get the bat vertical, that will fix it..

yeah get it vertical...it works mang!try it

What did the cannon say to get banned again? Anyone?

The last post was deleted. Keep in mind that this site is not only followed by adults but also kids. If you don't like the actions of the owners or the moderators then step up to the $25 charge and go to the other site. It's that simple.

figured. You have a conflict of interest in being a moderator and a follower of SE.

Step down.