Slider

As they say- "a breaking ball is a breaking ball no matter what you call it". I always like watching games where low 3/4 arm slot pitchers throw and hearing the commentators. Some call it a curve ball and others call it a slider. Ask the pitcher and some might call their breaking ball a slider and some call it the curve while yet others claim to have both.

My son throws from a low 3/4 slot and I have had other coaches ask if he was throwing a slider or a curve. In my opinion they are the same thing from that slot because they both basically have the same break motion- down and away from hitters.

In technical terms though, a slider is thrown with more of a traditional fastball mechanics that allows a greater velocity which translates to a later break which has a better chance of fooling hitters. Sliders traditionally have more side spin rather than downward spin which allows the ball to break more away from a sluggers potential "sweet spot" on the bat whereas a traditional curveball can only move downwards more than sideways and still in the potential "sweet spot" area of the bat. A low three quarter slot slinger actually gains the best of both worlds because his "breaking ball" will move both down and away from right handed hitters. If this slinger can learn to throw his breaking pitch with decent velocity he becomes the most dangerous thrower for a team because any hitter hates breaking pitches that lure them in to swinging but with no good potential for that pitch to end up anywhere close to the strike zone.

You watch a low 3/4 guy strike out batters on their breaking pitches and the ball is usually 6-10" away from the end of the swung bat in the strike zone.

I am mostly in agreement with GBM, but would phrase it a little differently, from a slightly different perspective. My son also throws from the low 3/4 arm slot, and he features a Curveball (and a very nice one).

I'm of the school of thought that the amount of velocity on a pitch, and the amount of rotation on the ball, are derived from the set of the wrist and forearm. When the hand is set directly behind the ball -- you have a Fastball (maximum velocity, least amount of "side" rotation).

-- 1/8 turn of the palm in and you have a Cutter
-- 1/4 turn of the palm in and you have a Slider
-- 1/2 turn of the palm in (Karate Chop) and you have a Curveball
-- 1/4 turn of the palm out and you have a Change
-- 1/2 turn of the palm out and you have a Screwball

We're of the school that says "set it and forget it". My son has learned to set his grip and forearm in the glove, and just to "throw a fastball". Ideally, all of these pitches should be thrown with Fastball mechanics and arm action.

My understanding (and testing) is that the Slider is tougher on the young arm because it requires more strength to hold the proper arm position throughout the delivery. Kids often wind up twisting their arm during the delivery itself, which is what berings on the higher probability of injury.

Results: Southpaw Son features a CB that breaks late, with a 11-5 or 10-4 break, that runs about 10-12 mph off his FB. It makes for a great breaking pitch, and his mechanics are vritaully identical to his FB, making ti very hard for hitters to pick up.

Hope this helps.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
1. What makes a slider so much worse than a curveball?

Worse in what way ?

quote:

1. What makes a slider so much worse than a curveball?

i think the velocity of a slider causes more torque/stress on the elbow, on young still developing arm's.

you said asmi didn't think curveball's caused arm injury's,more from overuse. i would agree to a point, you only have so many bullets in the gun. when a player is young, it doesn't matter how big he is. his body is still young. overuse isn't alway's pitch count's, throwing sliders can be overusing the arm.

you also said young players need to locate their pitches and change speeds. i agree 100%, you can't beat a good cu, instead of a slider. different fingure presure can give more movement on a fb without chance of damage.

my own opinions are based on what i have seen. you can find people that will back up whatever it is you want backed up.

as i said before,i don't want or need to argue this point. just trying to help. arm care is the thing.

bball
congrats on your son making varsity as a freshman. be careful, sometimes in the thrill of success we throw caution to the wind. enjoy the journey,it doesn't last forever.

Last guns on my son (both juggs and stalker read the same) were about a month ago during tryouts. Here were his numbers:

Fastball - 81-82 with a 6-8" tail
Change up - 71-72 with a drop when kept low
Slider/curve - 66-67 with big movement away and down from rightys.

SouthpawDad. I agree with you. Set and go. That is how I taught him to throw this pitch.

Here is a link to a video of his 5 strikeouts in 3 innings from his first varsity start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3JgNkBWZh4

Three were on the slider/curve, two on well placed fastballs.

Yankeelvr, I asked that question because on another thread I mentioned my son threw a slider. Several posters stated that a slider was a "big boys pitch". Never heard that said about throwing a curve. I started this discussion in response to that.

20, we are very concerned about his arm care. So are his HS coaches. They almost baby him. Give him tons of rest between starts. Won't let him play short on JV for 2-3 days after his varsity starts. He will DH, but not play field to make sure he is getting his recoup time. We're working it out.

If thrown like a half @zzed CB, I can see where it would cause pain (the old turn the doorknob) Sounds like your son throws the variety Steve Carlton teaches, ie true FB mechanics just released off the side of the index finger, not sure how this could be considered more dangerous than a FB.

Yup. When I taught him to throw the pitch, I said hold the ball like this and throw it like a fastball. Had good movement from the first time he threw it. Definetely does not "turn the doorknob". From time to time he will get under the ball, but he knows when he does it and will make the adjustment to "stay behind the ball". Much more effective when he sticks with fastball mechanics. Change up is basically the same. Change the grip and throw like a fastball. Very hard to tell by arm motion and arm speed what he is throwing.

BBall -- Congrats to your son! He looks great on the video. To my eyes, his pitch looks more like a CB than a Slider. Obviously, it is difficult to tell from the film.

Typically, I'm used to a Slider being a tighter break, with velocity closer to the FB (-3 to -5). The typical indicator of a good Slider is a tight spin with a "dot" the hitter sees. The CB grip/release (the Karate chop grip) typically flies with with a top spin rotation coming to the hitter.

I guess it matters less what he calls it (he could call it Fred), than that he can throw it for strikes, and that he is not straining his arm, or torquing it during the delivery to achieve the rotation. Best wishes to him for a successful year and career.

Yeah, I'm not really sure either. I think it has evolved over the last couple of years. At first his pitching instructor called it a cutter. At times it has been much closer in speed to his fastball. Right now it has slowed down and has a much bigger break. Like you said earlier, it is all a matter of degree and where you set your wrist. He may change it up depending on what he is trying to accomplish. Whatever it is called, it has been effective and I have had many educated people check him out before allowing him to throw it in a game.

I guess, when it comes down to it, there are those who think you shouldn't throw any breaking ball till your 16 and those who believe it is OK. Research backing both sides.

He definetely does not use it to compensate for lack of control. He hits his spots with all three pitches (overall-no one does it every pitch). He pitched a complete game - 7 innings - Monday night against the #3 AAAAA team in the state and only walked one. His comand is there. Breaking ball is just one part of his arsenal.

My son started throwing a slider last year, at age 14. This particular topic came up a few months ago -- about sliders being dangerous for younger players -- and when I told him my concerns, he laughed at me and said if sliders were really dangerous for him to throw, wouldn't his pitching coach and Tom House had said something?

Southpaw_dad, does your son throw one?

Don't know if it makes a difference, but my guy throws over the top. He has a curve that he sometimes struggles to throw for strikes, and a CU he doesn't like to pull out if he's blowing his FB and slider by hitters.

LHPMom

Comments on a couple of posts: 1) A lot of announcers can't tell a curve from a slider from the booth based on the break. 2) It's not a slider if it's 15 mph slower than the fastball. A slider has a harder, later break than a curve. It's velocity will be between the fastball and the curve. The point of the slider is for the hitter to think it's a fastball. 3) I wouldn't count on every high school coach looking out for a pitcher's physical best interest if he's getting hitters out. My high school coach went into the state Baseball Hall of Fame. I relieved more than 50% of the games I didn't start. I'd get to summer ball with a tired arm. His attitude was I had all summer to rest my arm. Who do you think he was looking out for?

Our coach and I have talked about this. My son will start probably once a week. That's with a three game per week schedule. He may be called in to close a game one other time during the week. In other words if he starts on Monday, coach said he may want him available to close a game on a Friday. Nothing wrong with that.

Like I said, we have talked about it and from what he is saying, he is inclined to err more on the side of caution. Season is early, but I have not seen anything to indicate that what he is saying is not true. Son started Monday night, JV game on Tuesday - did not play in field. No throwing whatsoever. Varsity game Wednesday - light throwing prior to game. Friday varsity game, wants son available to possibly close. Next start, next Wednesday. Like I said, coach is talking good right now and so far actions are backing it up.

I think coach wants him around for the next few years. He knows he plays summer ball.

LHPMom -- I do not want to speak for Coach House, but have had this discussion with him a couple of times. This is the understanding I walked away from those conversations with:

All pitches produce wear & tear. It's called physics. The "safest" breaking pitch for 18U Pitchers is the full Karate chop Curveball. It is the easiest position for them to pre-set and hold throughout the delivery, without twsiting the arm during delivery (a big no-no).

At the risk of inviting the pronation guru's into a conversation not intended to go down that path ... yes, the natural throwing movement ends in the arm pronating (plam out). When you throw a FB, the palm goes from flat, to pronated out. when you throw a CB, the palm goes from pronated in, through delivery, to pronating out after release. Yes -- there is "twisting", but it is happening in the post stress, deceleration period.

Yes, the Screwball starts pronated, but most kids don't have the strength to hold it; adding more strain to the delivery. I like the CB for 14U to 18U players because they can hold the position through delivery without strain or twisting, and the velocity change (-10 to -12) is great for getting out HS hitters. If you can spot a fastball, and throw a CB or CU for strikes, you can get through most HS line-ups.

For what it's worth.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
Last guns on my son (both juggs and stalker read the same) were about a month ago during tryouts. Here were his numbers:

Fastball - 81-82 with a 6-8" tail
Change up - 71-72 with a drop when kept low
Slider/curve - 66-67 with big movement away and down from rightys.

SouthpawDad. I agree with you. Set and go. That is how I taught him to throw this pitch.

Here is a link to a video of his 5 strikeouts in 3 innings from his first varsity start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3JgNkBWZh4

Three were on the slider/curve, two on well placed fastballs.

Yankeelvr, I asked that question because on another thread I mentioned my son threw a slider. Several posters stated that a slider was a "big boys pitch". Never heard that said about throwing a curve. I started this discussion in response to that.

20, we are very concerned about his arm care. So are his HS coaches. They almost baby him. Give him tons of rest between starts. Won't let him play short on JV for 2-3 days after his varsity starts. He will DH, but not play field to make sure he is getting his recoup time. We're working it out.

Not trying to critic your son's pitching, he looks great, has very good command on his pitches. What I don't like is that those batters are not as good as I think for the varsity players. Called 3rd strike on the right down the middle fastball, what's that about? Slider is not hard to hit at all if is in the strike zone. My son just love to hit sliders, you hang one on the outside corner, that will be a easy triple for him. The curveball will create more problems for a lot of good hitters, because the downward break, hitters usually can't get a good hold on it.

I blieve the slider is for the power pitchers, you have to throw near the fastball speed to be effective. I think if your son can keep the slider up to 75-77 mph and break down & out of the K zone,
he will have good success against the best hitters out of high school.

Actually, that team is the current #3 AAAAA team in the state. I believe there are 5 guys going to D1 schools for baseball. Not bad hitters. Called strikes were not down the middle. One to righty was on the outside corner. You can see the catcher set up outside. Started off the plate came back to corner. One to lefty was on the inside corner. Here the catcher sets up down the middle and reaches inside. Started off the plate again.

His breaking ball has a ton of downward break. Maybe it is more of a curveball than a slider. If you can fool someone with the pitch, you can get guys to miss. Major leaguers strike out all the time by being fooled. I only put together a clip showing the last pitch for the sake of time.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
Actually, that team is the current #3 AAAAA team in the state. I believe there are 5 guys going to D1 schools for baseball. Not bad hitters. Called strikes were not down the middle. One to righty was on the outside corner. You can see the catcher set up outside. Started off the plate came back to corner. One to lefty was on the inside corner. Here the catcher sets up down the middle and reaches inside. Started off the plate again.

His breaking ball has a ton of downward break. Maybe it is more of a curveball than a slider. If you can fool someone with the pitch, you can get guys to miss. Major leaguers strike out all the time by being fooled. I only put together a clip showing the last pitch for the sake of time.

For the good hitters, "right down the middle" means the middle from top to bottom, not inside to outside. Good hitters should hit the pitches painted on the line.
Yes, judging from the speed you mentioned, his slider is more like a curveball. The other thing bothers me a little bit is that he throws from low 3/4 slot, almost like a sidearm throw, it sure produces more sliding effects, but I wonder if this is the way to throw sliders, will it hurt his elbow or shoulder? Any experts? please comment.

Back to your question. I provided a link to Steve Ellis site with various grips of pitches for reference…..thanks Steve.

http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/articles.htm

The slider is the most damaging pitch there is for young arms (other than over use), many throw them with no problems however; it is just a risk issue. I personally don’t let my son throw them nor would I recommend them to anyone else. Most pitching coaches suggest you wait until college to throw them. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread you can pitch effectively with a good FB, CU and CB in High School. Heck you can pitch effectively in HS with two good pitches. The better your FB, the better chance you have moving up to the next level. It is that simple.

As Steve mentions in his site the differentiation between a curve, slider, cutter, slurve is based on the axis of spin and somewhat subjective. A slider will spin like a football with the “red dot” (axis of spin) toward the batter. That axis shifts around depending on how a ball is thrown and it is subjective as far as when a slider becomes a slurve, or a curve or a whatever.

Every time this issue comes up I repeat what most good pitching coaches will recommend.

Pre-HS: Focus on FB and CU
Freshmen HS: Learn how to throw a proper curve. It usually takes about a year to develop a good high velocity hard breaking curve as opposed to a loopy slow one. Continue to be obsessed with velocity and mechanics.
College: Learn a slider...maybe.

I can't paste the pictures here, but if you look at both pitches in his descriptions, the grips are pretty much the same. The description for the straight curveball is basically the karate chop motion. Can't do that with the low 3/4 slot. With the slider, ball comes off the side of the index finger, which is more conducive to the above slot.

Just seems to me that if you tried to throw the straight curve from a low 3/4, it just wouldn't work right. Your hand would be under the ball.

I don't pretend to know it all. That's why I've asked the questions to start the thread. I just think it may be a matter of degree whether you are throwing a curve/slider/slurve from a low 3/4. Maybe it should just be called a sidearm curve rather than a slider??? Not sure.

bbman:

You can TTFWIW. Don't hold too much weight on the information/recommendations from a bueliten board on pitching - some people may know what they are talking about and many do not. Find a good pitching coach in your area and work with him to make sure you are not overstressing your boys arm. Do it now as the stresses on the arm go up significantly as pitchers start throwing over 80. Sliders are really hard on young arms...see PG's post in the general thread to the starting over kid. I won't bore you with the details but is is a Vel. Squared function.

Based on my experience you may have to go to several until you find someone you and your son is comfortable with. Actually seeing more than one helps balance the information you are getting and different coaches sometimes catch different flaws.

Also make sure he has a good throwing program and he is doing the proper things as far arm strength development, warm up, and cool down and post pitching conditioning. I happen to like Jaeger but there are others out there.

Good luck as it sounds like your HS coaches have a good handle on managing the work load part.

Actually, he has a pitching instructor. We have been seeing him for about 5 years now. He did give us the go ahead on the pitch. I would not have allowed it without the OK. We only see him during Dec. and Jan. now. He is the pitching coach for the Red Sox AA minor league team up in Portland, Maine.

We do a lot to promote arm strength. Prior to the season, he does dumbbell work, band work, leg weights and plenty of long toss. HS coach makes sure he gets plenty of warmups prior to going in the game. After the game, he runs and does some band work. Also continues with band work every other day during the season.

Current HS coach is a bench coach for the Braves A team in the summer and pitching coach pitched in college. I feel like he is in good hands although I do keep involved in a pretty non-intrusive way. The coach and I get along pretty well.

Thanks for the input BOF.

bballman,

Like I said before, breaking balls is breaking balls. How one defines the various pitches is left up to "how" one wants to define perimeters. This is why I always am interested in watching commentators spout off over whether it was the curve or the slider, especially as the person they are critiquing has a lower arm slot. What is the true criteria? Once again- it is left entirely up to how one defines his perimeters. If we use the perimeter based solely off of direction of movement and spin and state within that principle that curves only move down and sliders only move away then anything inbetween those two are going to be called what some call a "slurve"- a combination of th etwo because the movement from the spin has both attributes. Technically it could be called a curve or a slider depending on who you ask.

Some people have different perimeters for determining what a curve is and what a slider is. For some, velocity is the determining factor irregardless of movement. As such I have seen some guys hard curveballs thrown in the upper 80's to be called sliders and yet when they just slow the velocity down, that same commentator will refer to it as the curveball- go figure!

In the perameters I use, the "breaking ball" pitch can be thrown a variety of ways to move in different locations. To me, it is wholly determined on the movement of the pitch. Someone with a higher arm slot gains the advantage in being able to throw both a true curveball and a true slider based solely off the direction of movement. The lower slot guy does not have this option of being able to throw two distinctly different breaking pitches- the curve and the slider- as effectively "different discernable" pitches. But, the lower slot guy gains the ability to throw "both" at the same time- a slurve (merely for technical terms). Never tell anyone who throws from a low 3/4 arm slot that there curveball is really a slider as pro scouts are not kind to that (go figure!)

Slurves (I hate that term as I think they are all just "curveballs), because of their two way break are the hardest breaking pitches to hit. Low three quarter pitchers curveballs are thus a mixture of both the curve and the slider and as such it is the hardest ball to hit effectively, or even at all.

I can live with that gingerbread. I think I'll just call it a breaking ball. It does move down and away from a righty and when it is on, it is unhitable. To be honest, I haven't known what to call it from the beginning and just kind of settled on slider. Anyway, it is a pretty good "breaking ball". Thanks man.

While the major difference between true slider and true curveball is most often velocity. It should be noted that all sliders are not identical and all curveballs are not identical. Typically a good slider will be around 7-8 mph under peak fastball velocity.

The actual hand position at release from a low angle makes the curveball harder to throw (Hard to get on top of the ball to get proper rotation/spin) That is why most low ¾ guys throw sliders.

Anyway the real difference in the slider and curveball is each pitch is thrown differently. Pitchers are either throwing a slider or throwing a curveball, there's no guessing what the pitch is from the pitchers standpoint. He should know for sure what he is trying to throw even if the observer might be confused.

We would often teach high school pitchers what we called a grip slider which we felt was a lot safer than the traditional slider. In other words we simply tried to get them to throw a spiral. Sometimes they picked it up quickly and had a good pitch. We found if they didn’t pick it up quickly, they tend to not pick it up at all.

If the curveball is taught and thrown correctly… IMO it is much safer than throwing the slider at a young age.

Guess I was the one who earlier mentioned that the slider is for the older boys. I also mentioned that the splitty is equally (if not more so) dangerous to young pitchers. I do understand there might be great pitching coaches who could disagree. They might be right, but no 14 year old (or younger) kid that I’m in charge of is going to throw true sliders or split finger pitches. Curveball is still open for debate.

I've just seen too many bad results!

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Back to your question. I provided a link to Steve Ellis site with various grips of pitches for reference…..thanks Steve.

http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/articles.htm

The slider is the most damaging pitch there is for young arms (other than over use), many throw them with no problems however; it is just a risk issue. I personally don’t let my son throw them nor would I recommend them to anyone else. Most pitching coaches suggest you wait until college to throw them. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread you can pitch effectively with a good FB, CU and CB in High School. Heck you can pitch effectively in HS with two good pitches. The better your FB, the better chance you have moving up to the next level. It is that simple.

As Steve mentions in his site the differentiation between a curve, slider, cutter, slurve is based on the axis of spin and somewhat subjective. A slider will spin like a football with the “red dot” (axis of spin) toward the batter. That axis shifts around depending on how a ball is thrown and it is subjective as far as when a slider becomes a slurve, or a curve or a whatever.

Every time this issue comes up I repeat what most good pitching coaches will recommend.

Pre-HS: Focus on FB and CU
Freshmen HS: Learn how to throw a proper curve. It usually takes about a year to develop a good high velocity hard breaking curve as opposed to a loopy slow one. Continue to be obsessed with velocity and mechanics.
College: Learn a slider...maybe.

Totally agree with the comments above. Having had a kid pitch and now with a Division I college I have been privy to many "lessons learned" including conversations with numerous doctors serving MLB Teams, MLB scouts, college coaches including several direct conversations with Tom House. Several rules:

1. Kid should not throw a "breaking ball" of any type until he is shaving regularly. In fact, there are pitchers in college that only throw two pitches with vary speeds and locations.

2. Limit pitch count to 80/90 pitches a week.

3. Limit the number of starts to one a week.

4. If the kid is laboring during his normal rotation to pitch -- sit him down -- something is not right.

5. Have the kid take at least 60 days off annually from throwing a baseball.

6. Work out religiously (daily) on rubber bands, towel drills and flat ground pitching.

7. Jog for thirty minutes after pitching.

College coaches have told me on numerous occasions and typically, high school pitchers are "damaged goods" because of overuse and not properly limiting their selected pitches until they reach the correct level of maturity.

I am somewhat skepticle about "breaking pitches" hurting young kids arms. From my own experience with my son, the only time his arm hurts is when he throws long innings/ long games and has to rely on his fastball to get him out of trouble. In fact, I have had games where my son went more to his breaking pitch because as he says- "my arm was getting sore from throwing too many fastballs". My son says he can throw curveballs all day without soreness. Maybe he just knows how to properly throw them.

I have read studies where the most damage that happens in the joints of arms is from over-stress from throwing too many "fastball" pitches. From my experience, this truly seems to be the case! Almost every kid who I coached, when he threw hard in a game almost always complained of soreness or tenderness in his arm- and they weren't throwing hardly any breaking pitches if any at all! Last year we had one kid who came into a game and was throwing real hard, and the next day he was still in pain and went to the doctor and was told to lay off pitching for a month, that he had an overtressed ligament in his arm by his growth plate. He threw nothing but fastballs in that game.

Truly, I can't understand how curveballs are more dangerous to throw. I have slowed down footage of my son throwing and from a mechanical standpoint nothing changes between his fastball and curveball except for the placement of the hand and the release point. Both the shoulder and elbow still have the same motion through the delivery.

I am still not convinced that throwing breaking balls is more dangerous than a good hard fastball. the jury is still out for me I guess.

Thanks for your input, Trepfan. I'm going to copy your post and email it to my son. He won't listen to me, but he'll probably listen to you. He's wearing #22 this spring and so proud.

LHPMom2012

Not to defend my personal position any more, but I just have to wonder about something. ASMI's research has shown that physically, a fastball is harder on the arm than a curveball or a change up. Yet many are still of the firm opinion that curveballs are bad on the arm for anyone until they start to shave on a regular basis or somewhere around there. ASMI also states that the biggest problem with arm injuries is over use related. That includes pitching past the point of fatigue and pitching without enough rest from a previous outing.

OK, could it be that the kids who throw a breaking ball are more effective than those who don't - especially at a young age - and are therefore used more often without the proper rest and are therefore more susceptible to arm injuries?

I know people are going to feel the way they do about this subject and are probably not going to be swayed one way or the other, but I think this is something to think about and consider. What do you guys think?

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
ASMI's research has shown that physically, a fastball is harder on the arm than a curveball or a change up. Yet many are still of the firm opinion that curveballs are bad on the arm for anyone until they start to shave on a regular basis or somewhere around there.

Read PG's post closely, he has a lot of experience in this area!

Properly thrown curveballs do not over stress the arm - this is what ASMI found. The problems with young kids are that many "curveballs" are closer to sliders and to the uninformed they look the same - but they are not. If you have a lower arm slot they are almost 100% chance of being sliders.

If you allow your son to throw these pitches you are putting him at risk. It is just like dice, sometimes your number comes up, and sometimes it does not. I have seen too many overbearing parents with limited knowledge ruin their son’s arm. DO YOU WANT TO BE ONE OF THESE PARENTS? When you put this together with "the only path to the next level is a good FB" then there is only one obvious path for young pitchers to take.

1. Learn to command a good FB
2. Learn a good CU.
3. Learn to throw a CB in High School (by a good coach)
4. Don't over use your arm in travel ball.
5. Learn proper arm care- pre and post pitching.

GBman and others can argue if it is, or is not a slider, or a CB, slurve, or whatever, but he and many others are uninformed. Follow the path above (and Trepfan's) and you have a better chance of being successful and having a longer career as a pitcher. The facts are that pitching is an unusual motion for the body and even under the best cases you can have problems - don’t increase the risk by being stupid!

BOF, hope your not calling me stupid. If you've read this post, you will have seen that I have done a lot of research and gathering opinions and recommendations from informed people. Even if I did not do that, calling me stupid because I do not conform to what you think is right is a little overboard especially on a board where we are all trying to learn and gather information.

I was throwing out a theory to see what people might think of that. I was not looking for a dressing down from another member of this site.

bbman:

Not at all you seem to have it together with good coaches. Just trying to STRESS the point a little, that it is better to be cautious than reckless with kids.

OK.

bballman,

I agree with your reasoning. I too think that "good" pitchers are the ones who have both a good fastball (velocity) and a breaking ball along with another offspeed pitch like the CU or knuckle. These pitchers for obvious reasons tend to generally throw a lot more than anyone else on a team. A case in point-

Two years ago my son was on a traveling team and was the ace on the team. He was called upon to pitch more and more as the season progressed and was developing quicker than his team-mates. I kept warning the coach that they need to get another person in the rotation and not to overuse my kids arm. As the season was coming to a close in one of the last tournaments we did my son pitched a weekend where he pitched in every game (5 total). I told them they need to take him out- that he was done pitching several times in that tournament and they would take my son aside and talk him into pitching another inning. Luckily my son was only 11 at the time and not throwing too hard that would damage his arm. After that tournament we quit the team and went onto a different team. I talked to his old coach and told him the reasons why- too many pitches and not enough rest! My son ended up suffering from some overused muscles in his legs and feet from that tournament and took several weeks to recover.

I totally believe that it is actual "hard pitches" on unrested, overused or improperly warmed up arms, that end up causing damage to arms at the young or older age.

The statistics in my opinion have just been added up wrong! If you were to take for instance the top ten kids in an area at the age of 12-13, every one of them with few exceptions would readily admit they have a breaking ball. Of those ten kids however, statistically speaking, they all throw harder fastballs, throw deeper into games, throw more often, and also push themselves beyond their limits on a regular basis. Its all about the depletion of "strong" mucle tissue supporting what would otherwise be fragile ligaments and joints. Recovery from "normal use" throwing should never cause any permanent damage and in fact strengthen the joints and their vital ligaments and tendons. If done correctly, in theory, one could pitch all types of pitches well into his 40's- 50's while retaining good velocity. Randy Johnson comes to mind right off.

I think more research needs to be done on "fastball mechanics" and its damaging effect when done incorrectly. I look at footage of my son throwing and start breaking down some of the fundamental aspects of it and find some interesting things. One thing I found was the rate of acceleration was astounding! From the **** phase to release phase of the pitch, the arm accelerates the 5 oz. ball from 0-65 mph (that is what my son threw last year as a twelve year old) in around 3/100'ths of a second! If one starts then thinking about the forces involved, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the potential damaging effects this could have on an arm that was not properly warmed up and ready to pitch or one that was overused and lacked the proper strength to keep everything in order. Another aspect of analysis I was intrigued by was the force upon the arm during the rotation of the hip phase and coming into the **** position. The forearm basically goes from a verticle to a horizontal (parallel to ground) position as the body begins to wind up to deliver the pitch. Have you ever tried just cocking the forarm in back of you and making it come into a parallel position with the ground? It fricken hurts! Certainly a overused arm could not repeatedly do this a 100 times in a game without the arm over-extending due to lack of good muscle in the arm preventing that stress.

Another thing I noticed over the years from slow mo video is what is happening right at release of the ball. I have noticed that pitchers who suffer from joint and arm pain on a regualr basis are literally trying to throw their arms out of their sockets at release because they do not have the proper rotation arc of the arm at release following into a nice arc slowdown. If one were to watch from the forearm out from ****-phase to follow through, their hand should make a perfect arc. Some pitchers in order to get "closer" to the plate wil extend the arm and hand too far in front of their body before release causing their arm at release to make and abrupt downward turn as it fights against the body holding it back.

anyway, I agree that overuse from a good fastball armis the "main" cause of ruining arms!

gingerbread,

Your son is how old again? And you have all this figured out? Why not talk to those who have much more experience? Every position throws basic fastballs yet most arm problems belong to pitchers. The easiest pitch to throw is the fastball. The other positions don't throw anything except straight fastballs.

I would like to hear from you when your son is 20 years old. Very seldom do the problems show up at 9, 10 or even 13 years old. Many outstanding 13 year olds became average 18 year olds. In the interest of your son... I recommend that you seek more advice! Most every parent thinks their son is doing everything right because he appears to be healthy... until the future MRI results prove differently. That is when you really start realizing you didn't actually have everything figured out quite right.

BTW, that video (can't remember whose son it was) was pretty impressive.

PGStaff,

Just because my son is only 13 does not mean anything about me myself not knowing anything about baseball pitching. Just like any other concerned parent about the health of my kids arm, I have done research myself and have my own theories on what works and what doesn't. As far as getting advice from other people, I do get advice when the opportunity arises. Last year my son was on a traveling team who took advice from time to time from a former professional pitcher whose own kid was my sons fellow team-mate. I have also sought advice on the internet from time to time when I want to find out something. What I have personally found from my own research is that no one really knows what the true causes of why one pitchers arm blows out and his team-mates doesn't! It is all theories.

It is true that everyone on a team throws basic fastballs in practice, warming up, and in games on plays. But there is a big difference in that a pitcher on a team will throw 10 times as many fastballs as compared with the rest of players. On top of that, the pitchers "fastballs" are just that- "fast" whereas most other kids on the team will throw normally at lower velocities. and still on top of that, the other kids will not repeatedly throw hard fastballs over and over again without much rest inbetween pitches.

I am not saying that my sons arm is bullet proof or that he does "everything right" because he doesn't experience typical pain associated with other pitchers his age. I am just saying that the research of throwing too many fastballs at an early age obviously does lead to arm injury.

It has never been proven that throwing breaking pitches at an early age is the cause of arm injury (the main leading factor) and personally, an 11-12 year old pitchers general velocity on a breaking ball is not at a threshold velocity to cause arm injury- serious injury. Fastball pitches are in my opinion the most dangerous pitches to throw for pitchers because "max effort" is put into the pitch and as such, the muscles, ligaments and tendons are working at their max effort to accelerate and release that ball in a very tight sequencial space of time. The whole body must be conditioned to throw a fastball.

The whole reason I started video-taping my son was to refine his mechanics and track potential trouble spots in his delivery. So far, the video analysis shows to me that his troubles creep in when, in this order- 1.he throws in long inning games (high pitch counts), 2.throws too many fastballs, and- 3.improper rest between starts.

Turns out all along that my research closely resembles what major leaguers have been doing for the past decade or two in order to help curb injury issues. MLB teams have limited big pitch counts in games, kept the "fastballers" (97mph+ max effort pitchers)as primarily 1-2 inning guys, and given them better rests inbetween starts. It all points in my opinion to one basic thing- that thing being that it takes a lot of effort to throw hard and as such, the body needs to be strong and have "repairing" rest inbetween pitch outings to remain strong.

Who knows where my son will be when he is 20, hopefully he will still be pitching then and still look good with good velocity and control.

I believe I have instilled in my son the correct philosophy though, that being- the fastball is a violent event and that as he gets older each year he needs to learn how to warm up correctly and eat better and get the proper rest and recuperating periods inbetween outings so that when he throws "fastballs" his arm can support the violence of that event. I say violent in the sense that a cold tight arm or even a tired arm may still be able to throw at near max velocity, but it cannot withstand the pressures and shock of the event and as such he needs to emphasize warming up the engine before he races it and knowing when to shut the engine down before it blows!

I always made sure my pitchers, my son included had proper rest between games. I would watch pitch count per inning as well as overall pitch count. Why would I keep a pitcher in that had thrown 40 pitches in 2 innings? When my son was 13 he was on a club team and a rec team. I had advised all the managers of the rec league prior to the draft that he would not be available to pitch except on a very limited basis and only if he had not pitched for the club team in the previous 48-72 hours depending on pitch count. There were other issues with the league the previous year plus my son would be playing high school ball instead of all stars. One day after I had advised the coach my son had pitched earlier in the day, the coach wanted my son to close. I told the coach no way. The coach was upset, but my son's arm came first, especially a young arm.

Gingerbread,

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say you don't know what you're doing. I respect anyone who studies and listens to others. However, if I were to look back 20 years ago... It's amazing how much I didn't know back then. Certain things that I would have argued about because of being so certain, have turned into all together different thoughts about the same thing. That still doesn't mean I am right or you are wrong... It just means that is is very likely that we all have much more to learn and we will never learn it all.

Pitch counts, rest between pitching, and other subjects are extremely important, but have nothing to do with the original topic.

When I hear someone say that curveballs and sliders are determined by what the ball does, I understand what is meant, but these are two pitches thrown different ways. While some might throw the curveball differently than someone else, they are both throwing a curveball. Those few pitchers who throw both pitches... throw each pitch differently!

Also, in order to increase arm strength the pitcher needs to throw hard. Without doing that he will not see a lot if increase in arm strength or arm speed. The amount of effort required to throw hard differs from one pitcher to another. That is because they are not all equally talented or one has much better mechanics than the other.

There is no athletic event that I can think of where people improve without effort. You do not improve accidentally. It is my belief that every top level draft pick pitcher has in fact tried to throw as hard as he can, whether there was a radar gun present or not. The other issues of over working the arm or not getting enough time between pitching performances or bad mechanics... Are the things that cause most all of the arm injuries among physically mature pitchers. It's not that they throw harder, they need to throw smarter.

The curveball thrown correctly (which is rare) is a safer pitch for a young arm than sliders and split finger pitches. Throwing the fastball properly is safer than all breaking balls. The true slider or cutter could be called throwing the fastball incorrectly. That is dangerous for under developed young arms! Personally I think the split is the most dangerous for a young pitcher. Especially if they don't have long fingers.

There is a grip slider that some use that allows a young pitcher to get a decent break at decent velocity without much strain on the arm. The traditional slider that requires curling and pulling the middle finger down is more dangerous and places much more stress on a young arm. (IMO)

BTW, while I can see some value in mastering the curveball earlier on... The slider is a pitch that can be learned and used later on. It is not a hard pitch to learn and often becomes the second pitch (even the best pitch) for older kids who throw with lots of velocity. The problem with the low arm angle is that the curveball is nearly impossible to throw. The "grip" slider can give the low angle guys a good breaking ball. Best about the low arm angle is it should provide a lot of action on the fastball.

All that said... There are no safe pitches to throw. They are all dangerous. Some more so than others. Recuperation, rest, mechanics, conditioning, strenth, genetics, brains, luck, etc. it is all important.

quote:

There is a grip slider that some use that allows a young pitcher to get a decent break at decent velocity without much strain on the arm. The traditional slider that requires curling and pulling the middle finger down is more dangerous and places much more stress on a young arm. (IMO)

PG, I think this is what my son throws. Personally, I have never heard the term "grip slider". I think I have said this before, but the way he started throwing this was I showed him a grip (basically, hold the ball off center) and throw it like a fastball. From the very first time he threw it, he got pretty rediculous movement. He was never taught the technique of "curling and pulling the middle finger down".

Over time, we just decided to call it a slider because it seemed that's the way it acted. I agree that a low arm slot guy cannot throw a true curve. That was kind of the premise of this thread. Problem is, obviously, if you call it that, you get all kinds of grief. I wonder if I started calling it a "grip slider" if anyone would know what I was talking about. I'd have a new set of issues on my hands. I think I might just call it his breaking ball from now on, just to avoid all the hulla ballew.

Your insights are appreciated. You have obviously been around for a long time and have probably seen more high level baseball and premier baseball players than almost all of us combined.

BTW, that was my son in the earlier video. His arm slot does give him quite a bit of movement on his fastball. It can be very effective. We have worked hard on his spotting of it. With a 6-8" tail, he probably never starts it where he wants it to wind up.

PGStaff,

I agree with most of what you say, especially about throwing harder and it not coming by accident. It reminds me of a funny story that happened last year in a game. My son in addition to his trveling team also played city ball. At the start of the season,our head coach had no idea how hard my son threw. His kid was the catcher on the team. He was small for an 11 year old just under 5 feet tall and weighing about 80 pounds.

Anyway, we breezed through the first few games winning 2 and losing 1 and my son had still not thrown. The next game after that we were matched against a few of my sons old traveling team-mates on the opposing team. We put my son in to pitch with the coaches kid as the catcher. After a few semi-hard balls and two outs later one of the old team-mates came up to bat. My son now in his rythm reared back drove his leg way up in the air and threw the ball so hard into the catchers glove that it caused the glove to smack against his chest and knock him over- no joke ( I think he was partially off balance too). I yelled out casually to the mound- "hey now your getting it warmed up!" That was all she wrote for that team. Every pitch after that was a hard fastball and the catcher falling over helped fuel the intimidation and made it seem like he was throwing lightning bolts out there. It seemed to fuel my son too because after the game he told me that he didn't realize how hard he could actually throw.

It is true, if you want to throw harder it is only going to come by practicing to throw harder. After that game, it was like my son reached a new bar in velocity. In all of travel ball the rest of the year there was only one kid I seen throw noticably harder in his age group with quite a few around his same velocity. That other kid threw true lightning bolts! It was the first time I had ever seen a 12 year old kid throwing fastballs approaching 80 mph! That kid propelled hi Cal Ripken team to the state finals, winning, going to regionals, winning and then making an appearance at the Cal Ripken world series back east. They lost in that tournament, but man could that kid throw! He was also of coarse 5'11". He didn't need any curveball or change-up! In a game once I saw him throw a change-up really slow- more like a lob ball (about 40 mph). It totally buckled the batters knees- so unexpected. That too was funny!

Good luck Gingerbreadman.