Velocity for age 10

quote:

I don't know if that last sentence was tongue in cheek, partially tongue in cheek, or exactly what you meant to say.

Not tongue in cheek at all. I believe if a young kid at 8-9 is taught to throw as hard as they can and constantly throw curveballs they ARE injuring their arm. This injury will either eliminate their ability to pitch in HS or they will eventually end up having surgery to correct this injury. My son was lucky that he never had arm problems BUT his shoulder makes funny noises as he moves it around. Obviously it is possible to do these things and NOT have problems but it is very risky to PUSH your kid in this direction .... or ... ALLOW your kid to go in this direction.
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Like I said many times- What I have taught my son about pounding the strike zone with decent velocity works. Is that bad advice? Is that not what every professional ball cliub teaches? Hello?

You are right, that is what they teach, but it's not all about pitching at that level as hard as you can, but throwing strikes. Of course it's about decent velocity, but not pitching your hardest throughout a game. BTW, your son is 14, not at the professional level, keep it to what 14 year olds should be doing, not older men and don't compare the two. There is a method to all of this madness, the whole idea is to keep things age specific. Not do as a young child what professional men do, don't you get that?

Also, next year get yourself out of Idaho and do some serious travel ball in the country, get a look at some of the players your son will be in competition in HS for recruiting and scouting, play up as well. A player can be dominate in his age group, but as you move up that diminishes greatly.

Over the past year, you have stated that your son did well, pitching from different arm angles (not now), he gets his strength and conditioning from throwing hard off of the mound (no long toss) and even went home after a game and threw against a wall to keep his arm in shape (not good after the cool down). Each and every time you have been called out. It's ok what you wish to do with your son, but leave the advice off the board.

I don't think that anyone is saying your son isn't talented, all they are trying to say is be careful.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Like I said many times- What I have taught my son about pounding the strike zone with decent velocity works. Is that bad advice? Is that not what every professional ball cliub teaches? Hello?

You are right, that is what they teach, but it's not all about pitching at that level as hard as you can, but throwing strikes. Of course it's about decent velocity, but not pitching your hardest throughout a game. BTW, your son is 14, not at the professional level, keep it to what 14 year olds should be doing, not older men and don't compare the two. There is a method to all of this madness, the whole idea is to keep things age specific. Not do as a young child what professional men do, don't you get that?

Also, next year get yourself out of Idaho and do some serious travel ball in the country, get a look at some of the players your son will be in competition in HS for recruiting and scouting, play up as well. A player can be dominate in his age group, but as you move up that diminishes greatly.

Over the past year, you have stated that your son did well, pitching from different arm angles (not now), he gets his strength and conditioning from throwing hard off of the mound (no long toss) and even went home after a game and threw against a wall to keep his arm in shape (not good after the cool down). Each and every time you have been called out. It's ok what you wish to do with your son, but leave the advice off the board.

I don't think that anyone is saying your son isn't talented, all they are trying to say is be careful.

Perhaps we are saying the same thing about pitching har or not a young age. Trust me on this- I do not teach my son or other young pitchers to just go out and throw as hard as they can. I teach them to throw with a good hard decent velocity- not "all out". I do know the limits and risks of throwing kids with growing bodies. A philosophy I believe in is to throw often, but stop before fatigue sets in. By "throw", I do not mean "pitching"- I mean to just toss a ball back and forth- kind of like a sprinter who "jogs". When it comes to actual "pitching", I am very critical on each and every pitch watching for any sign of a miscue in mechanics or fatigue setting in. You probably read above that I once took my kid off a team that I thought was over-pitching him just to try to win/ stay in games more.

We are planning on going to some camps and such out of state next year.

As for long toss- hey, we may give it a whirl this fall. It's not that I am opposed to it, just that what we have done to this point with the bullpens have been very effective. So, if we find two things that are effective- great!

My son has played up every year since he turned 12. He has often had to face kids 2 years older that were bigger, stronger and faster.

I hope that no one on this board seeking advice is believeing that I think it sound advice to punish kids by throwing "all out" at an early age- that is exactly "not" what I am trying to say. So, to clarify on that point-

Teach your young pitchers to throw with a good decent velocity- a velocity that they are comfortable throwing with some effort involved. Keep the outings frequent, but not long, and never let them pitch with any pain or fatigue.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
It's ok what you wish to do with your son, but leave the advice off the board.

A little bossy today?

You preach long toss. Many don't believe in it. No MLB pitcher before 1980 did it, and they were able to pitch many more complete games than pitchers today.

I welcome ideas of others. They should be able to be challenged here - and he was.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

You preach long toss. Many don't believe in it.

And you know this, how?

Just because you come on here and say it doesn't make it true. We're living in 2010, not 1980. No, I can't prove it but a majority of high school and colleges practice long toss every day. MLB teams utilize it now for the benefits.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
It's ok what you wish to do with your son, but leave the advice off the board.

A little bossy today?

You preach long toss. Many don't believe in it. No MLB pitcher before 1980 did it, and they were able to pitch many more complete games than pitchers today.

I welcome ideas of others. They should be able to be challenged here - and he was.

YGD is correct, this is not 1980, it's a whole different game. When was the last time you climbed the hill and pitched a game?

My son's pitching coach in high A and double A and who he turns to advice for, Dennis Martinez, you know who he is right? Dennis is a recovering alcoholic, he told son the pain was so intense at times he just drank it away, that's what he did can you imagine what others did? Pain was part of their game. Does what happened in the past make it right? That is just the way it was and lessons have been learned from that and rarely much talked about. His opinion is that the players of today are so much better off with pitch counts, better training, better instruction, better medical care, etc. than they were back then. I'll take that opinion over yours anyday.

What makes you think people didn't long toss before 1980? It is just a name for something that has been done almost since the invention of baseball.

The reason for the more recent implementation of long toss is that done on an arc, gradually increasing distance, it has been used for rehab. When it is done that way it is a bit safer. It still isn't perfectly safe. Almost no throwing is completely safe.

Long toss isn't a miracle. It helps some. It doesn't help others. Some pitchers benefit more from bullpens and flatgrounds. There's only so much time/(wear and tear)/catchers available and each player has to determine what mix works best within those constraints. Each player has to find out what works for them and what their body can and can't handle. Parents need to help with that a bit until the players are ready to take over for themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Parents need to help with that a bit until the players are ready to take over for themselves.

I agree with the above, however someone told me that the overly obsessive parent who wants to micro manage their youngsters often becomes the overly obsessive parent of older players and has no clue when to let go or realizes any harm they may be in doing so.

Some others things said:

"Real" baseball people (those in the profession) understand that there is a lot of failure in this game and if you develop young players with too high of expectation day in and day out, most usually break down either physically or emotionally.

Also believes that young players should be taught proper mechanics and conditioning for their age (appropriate) and not be concerned with throwing harder, how many wins or how many people they struck out, etc. It all changes and in many cases, the young player is best left to develop his natural talent without too much stress placed upon a growing body (throwing often and harder from the mound at young ages can create this). For many that may include not throwing curve balls as well as other pitches introduced to players too early.

Each player is different and develops differently, the opening statements about one should be concerned about velocity at 10 is not good, this may be a good concern for him but not in general.

This is also a person who knowa a lot more on player development and success than we do.

So whose opinion would you beleive would be best for young players, an overly obsessive dad or one who is a professional in the business?

I am gonna go with the latter.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
What makes you think people didn't long toss before 1980? It is just a name for something that has been done almost since the invention of baseball.

Do you have any articles, pictures, videos, etc. that show any pitchers (not outfielders) doing this?

Not that it matters, because I am sure my son will end up doing long toss somewhere regardless of what I think.

No, do you have articles, pictures, videos, etc. proving that pitchers didn't do it?

I do know that we threw the ball as far as we could from time to time well before 1980. We didn't do it on a regular basis and we didn't call it long toss.

I tried to play some long toss myself on Sunday. I could only throw it about 185'. Then we went to the MLB fanfest. I figured I'd be able to hit about 65 mph on the guns they had there as a result. They had the whole thing set up very poorly making it very difficult to get a reading when trying to throw hard but I did manage to hit 65.

They had non-baseball people running it and they didn't realize they had their Stalkers set up way too close to where people were throwing from. Release points tended to be outside the beam divergence angle they were so close. It worked fine for the little kids but the bigger kids who were throwing fairly hard tended not to get a reading at all.

quote:

. They had the whole thing set up very poorly making it very difficult to get a reading when trying to throw hard but I did manage to hit 65.

Not bad, CA Dad. I got clocked at 85 the other day.

Course that was by a state trooper.

Showing my age here - but I had a Little League coach in 1973 and 1974 who had his entire team doing long toss as a part of every practice. Not sure when long toss started - but I know Coach Crane was a believer back then when I was 11 and 12.

He also had us using bike inner tubes as we warmed up for our bullpens... very much like the bands of today.

On a related note, I was curious a few years back on how many kids made it from 12 years old to HS baseball. So I found an allstar program from the local little league district tourney and traced as many of the kids as I could find. Less than 50% of the ones I could find made it from LL Allstar to high school varsity player.

So how hard does a 10 YO throw? Does it really matter given the fall out rate?

I got a pic of CADad leaving.

Yeah, like you'd catch me wearing a suit.

quote:

Originally posted by 08Dad:
Less than 50% of the ones I could find made it from LL Allstar to high school varsity player.

Likely because 50% of those kids on the LL Allstar roster are the kids of coaches or the kids of the coaches friends. Bum, Jr. was a rarely-used sub at that age.

Should have fun at age 10. Success or lack of it at that age means nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:

quote:

Originally posted by 08Dad:
Less than 50% of the ones I could find made it from LL Allstar to high school varsity player.

Likely because 50% of those kids on the LL Allstar roster are the kids of coaches or the kids of the coaches friends. Bum, Jr. was a rarely-used sub at that age.

Should have fun at age 10. Success or lack of it at that age means nothing.

No doubt there was some of that - but we are talking about a sample of over 200 kids - I suspect that a greater cause is simply how kids grow from 13 to 15 and as result some get better and some fall back.

Regardless, baseball should be all about fun at 10 or 12 and not about success...

quote:

Originally posted by 08Dad:
Regardless, baseball should be all about fun at 10 or 12 and not about success...

Exactly.
Your percentage was pretty good, even here in florida, you won't find many who were involved in LL playing at a higher level (college or beyond). Though FL is a state with many draft picks, I think the fallout rate has alot to do with year round baseball, year round sports in general and too much emphasis on youth travel ball and all it encompases too early for youngsters (which causes injuries later).

It's just my opinion that most push their young players too hard too soon, the whole object in this game, no matter HS, college, or beyond is remaining healthy, because injuries cause lost oppoortunities.

For those that have had players with serious injuries with long recovery time (when it counted the most), they understand.

Those that think that they are doing what they should (things meant for older more mature players to keep bodies healthy), really don't.

At the HS baseball post season dinner they put together a video/slide presentation and included was a clip of our 10u all star team. I believe 7 kids from that clip were on our HS team and 1 or 2 more were on it the next season. 1 or 2 more may have ended up at other schools. That 10u team was very competitive with the Conejo team that won the US LL championship a couple years later. I believe 4 of the kids from our 10u team are playing college baseball. 2 kids who weren't on that team are playing college ball. They were both on the next tier team and both were pulled up to play with the team in the post LL tournament.

I think I can find the 12yo team roster, but I don't think quite as many made the HS team. Should be interesting to check. (6 of 12 of the 12yo all-stars) The only coach's kid who didn't make the HS team from that roster was the HS team's starting quarterback. 3 players from that team are playing college ball. 2 more current college players would have been on the team but they left to play in a more competitive PONY league which sends teams to the WS virtually every year.

TPM,
How do you go from "a little bit of help" meaning help keeping them from overdoing it, to overly obsessive parent? That is one of the most blatant examples of twisting words and twisted logic I've ever seen.

Generally speaking most of the injuries I've seen have resulted from overuse at the hands of unqualified HS coaches and strength trainers while kids are experiencing their growth spurts and they've happened equally to the kids of parents who try to be involved and to those who stay out of it. I've seen very few injuries at LL ages and little or no correlation between playing time or position in LL and the HS injuries.

Probably the worst example was the kid who was being coached by the incoming JV coach and was sent to me after playing with the JV winter team. I was coaching the freshmen. I was told he'd be pitching for me that day. I watched him play catch for 5 minutes and sent him to a doctor. At 14 he had little league elbow from being so badly overused by the incoming JV coach. He was sent down to me because he wasn't pitching as well...what a surprise given that he'd pulled a piece of bone off his elbow. This kid whose parents did just a wonderful job of staying out of it, was out of baseball within a year or two as he never fully recovered from that injury and the lost time.

There's being involved and educated and being overly obsessive.

There are parents so obsessed to make their son's stars they become overly involved in what player's need to do age specific, in other words they are training their kids like they are fully grown men.

Hey I don't care what anyone wants to do with their own players, just don't go telling others what to do, here, when you have no idea what the end result will be, until he gets older.

TPM,
Well I guess being obsessive is one area where you have some personal experience.

If you haven't figured it out yet the internet and this site are sources of information. Some is good, some is bad and people have to make up their own minds. Unfortunately, there are people with virtually no baseball experience who'll pass themselves off as experts and people will believe them. Then there are those of us who express opinions and don't try to pretend that we are experts. Sometimes the opinions can be strong. For example, Bum has very strong opinions about long toss because it has worked well for his son. There's nothing wrong with him expressing his opinions. The rest of us have to take what it has done for his son and look at other cases and make our own decisions but there's certainly nothing wrong with him expressing his firm opinions on long toss and letting other people take or ignore that advice as they wish.

The beauty and the potential trap of the internet is the wealth of opinions and information. Some people may even listen to yardbird. That's their decision. There's no law against that particular form of masochism.

BTW, you might want to take your own advice.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
TPM,
Well I guess being obsessive is one area where you have some personal experience.

And do I go about posting clips of players that were taken 4 years ago and offer a critique?

Sorry, I am not with you. Bum's son is proof of what he did is working, he's past the 10-14 year old stage. When your player gets past that and all remains good, let us know.

Besides his post makes sense, younger is about having fun, not success or lack of it. That's not important in the long run, is it?

BTW, I wonder who is sometimes having more fun, the players or their folks?

The reality is that pro ball is a grind and not every player is going to be able to handle the workload even though they've tried to build up the pitchers workloads up more gradually in recent years. Some certainly were damaged in HS and in college, but some just genetically are going to be injured when they take on a pro workload. Fortunately for some of them surgery will provide a long term solution. Others won't be as lucky. The other big factor is that the harder you throw the more likely you are to be injured and there's more hard throwers in pro ball so there are going to be injuries.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
The reality is that pro ball is a grind and not every player is going to be able to handle the workload even though they've tried to build up the pitchers workloads up more gradually in recent years. Some certainly were damaged in HS and in college, but some just genetically are going to be injured when they take on a pro workload. Fortunately for some of them surgery will provide a long term solution. Others won't be as lucky. The other big factor is that the harder you throw the more likely you are to be injured and there's more hard throwers in pro ball so there are going to be injuries.

I am not talking proball. Haven't you ever seen a player get hurt and it disrupts the recruiting process? I am not talking reaching the big league, that happens so far and few between.

Maybe you are not getting my original point, we shouldn't treat or condition young players like they are in proball.

Yes, harder throwers have a tendency to get hurt more often, so why do some work so hard to make their players throw harder?

Risk/reward. Most of the kids who don't throw hard don't ever get seen and don't get a shot at the next level. There are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions.

It was interesting to hear Orel Hershiser say that one of the pitchers in the CWS who was doing very well had little or no shot at going anywhere in pro ball. The pitcher was working in the mid to upper 80s with very good movement on his fastball. His off speed stuff was decent but not spectacular. His fellow announcer was indignant that Orel would say that. Orel explained that pitchers like that sometimes get a chance but very seldom get past A ball. It is a numbers game and the pro's know that the payoff is better going with a lot of kids who throw hard and finding a few who can pitch rather than going with a lot of kids who can pitch and hoping that one or two will be able to pitch even better.

The same happens in college to some degree. A RHP who throws less than 85 isn't going to get a shot unless he's proven to have a lot of pitchability. A far less effective pitcher throwing 90-91 will get a shot.

Of course we shouldn't treat or condition young guys like they are in pro ball. That's why parents need to be involved, to make sure that doesn't happen.

The reality is that there are ways for kids to work on increasing their velocity that are not likely to injure them and some kids can benefit. Now if a kid is throwing 5 to 10 mph harder than any of his peers then it probably isn't worth even a small risk to work on throwing harder and the kid needs to focus on learning how to pitch.

There's nothing wrong with a 10yo playing a bit of long toss as long as it isn't overdone. That is what is good about the interval throwing program. If it hurts you rest a day or two then go back a step in the distance before trying to push it again. At that age it will probably help them learn how to throw harder. At that age they are actually less prone to serious injury than kids who are into their growth spurts.

BTW, you can learn to throw hard and learn how to pitch at the same time. Trevor Bauer is a good example. He built the ability to throw hard but he has also studied pitching and knows how to set up hitters, etc.

We should listen to yardbird?

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Of course we shouldn't treat or condition young guys like they are in pro ball.

Thank you. That would include anyone, even parents.

Wasn't the original topic Velocity for age 10 ????

Sultan,
Sure, if you've got a serious masochistic streak.

I'll stick needles in my eyes before I EVER read another yardbird post.

I am pretty sure that pretty much every Dad out there knew what their kid threw velocity wise when they first started throwing. If they didn't, they had a pretty good idea. Sure, we are not going to see guns popping up at little league games- I mean really- when was the last time that guns started showing up behind the backstop at little league games? Not only parents, but the kids themselves want to know what velocity they throw- even at 10 years of age. And we all know the rest of the story....when one kid finds out what he throws it becomes a competition of sorts to see who is the fastest thrower in a group. It's no wonder that speed guns are set up at pretty much every professional ballfield in the country- everyone wants to know what velocity they throw- where they stack up.

From that very first reading on- whether it was at age 9 or age 15, people become obsessed with gaining more velocity. Thats not a bad thing, it eventually breeds into pitchers able to throw upper 90's and living the high life for the select few who can bring it.

Whether we like it or not, little leagues, travel leagues, etc, across the nation are going to continue to be the breeding ground for kids and parents obsessed with gaining more velocity and the endless comparisons between little Johnny and Peter will be the drive for gaining that velocity. There is not a single parent or player out there that has not obsessed to some degree over their velocity from when they first started pitching. Comparisons are also going to continue- even at 10 years old- its perfectly natural to always know where one stacks up.

Even from early ages, once a pitcher has showed some genuine ability, parents and coaches have tried everything in the book to generate the right sequence of teaching, training and coaching to exert the most potential velocity from an arm for the present and the future.

There is a reason we do not see the kids with the weak arms pitch or continue to pitch as they get older. Baseball gradations at each level filter out weak arms and either eliminate them or limit their playability altogether. Parents and kids know this and so the endless drive in youth baseball players to gain velocity will continue. Is that a bad thing? Absolutely not! Should we never gun little 10 year old Johnny? Good luck on that happening- kids and/or parents will always find a gun and the comparisons will always be the battleground for gaining velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I am pretty sure that pretty much every Dad out there knew what their kid threw velocity wise when they first started throwing. If they didn't, they had a pretty good idea....

...Parents and kids know this and so the endless drive in youth baseball players to gain velocity will continue. Is that a bad thing? Absolutely not! Should we never gun little 10 year old Johnny? Good luck on that happening- kids and/or parents will always find a gun and the comparisons will always be the battleground for gaining velocity.

I never knew the velocity of my son's pitch until someone put a gun on him and I watched the results. This was about age 14 when a coach wanted to determine if he wanted him on his 16u team. I did not get concerned about the velocity numbers because I was catching my son in the back yard and at the park and knew how much my hand hurt. I did not need to see the numbers, I knew he was throwing hard.

I do believe, as you point out, that the drive to throw harder at younger ages is why you see more kids at younger ages getting elbow and shoulder surgeries. Even when kids can throw harder I do not believe they should keep pushing that aspect of their abilities until their growth plates have fused to the bone. IMHO this is the point that kids should start "trying" to throw harder.

I never knew what my son threw until he was around 13. I was the pitching coach for his travel teams and somewhere around that time I bought a jugs gun. I used it for tryouts to see what kids were throwing and the velocity difference between FB's and off speed pitches. Once the season started, I used it mid way through the season and at the end of the season to see if there was any progress.

When my son started pitching at 8 through when he was 12, I never knew how hard he threw. The only time I really wondered about it was watching the LLWS. We would sit there and speculate if he threw as hard as those kids did. What we really worked on was him hitting his spots, his mechanics and a change up. He was very effective at that age, without ever knowing how hard he threw.

To be honest with you, even now, at 16, my son is not obsessed with it. He is in the WWBA events at East Cobb. I keep telling him to throw a few hard to post a higher velocity. After the game, I will ask him if he did that and he will tell me no. He just wants to make sure he makes his pitches and is effective during his outings. So far this summer he has been.

I'm not sure everyone is as obsessed as you are GBM.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

I am pretty sure that pretty much every Dad out there knew what their kid threw velocity wise when they first started throwing. If they didn't, they had a pretty good idea. Sure, we are not going to see guns popping up at little league games- I mean really- when was the last time that guns started showing up behind the backstop at little league games?

Not only parents, but the kids themselves want to know what velocity they throw- even at 10 years of age.

And we all know the rest of the story....when one kid finds out what he throws it becomes a competition of sorts to see who is the fastest thrower in a group.

From that very first reading on- whether it was at age 9 or age 15, people become obsessed with gaining more velocity. Thats not a bad thing, it eventually breeds into pitchers able to throw upper 90's and living the high life for the select few who can bring it.

Whether we like it or not, little leagues, travel leagues, etc, across the nation are going to continue to be the breeding ground for kids and parents obsessed with gaining more velocity and the endless comparisons between little Johnny and Peter will be the drive for gaining that velocity. There is not a single parent or player out there that has not obsessed to some degree over their velocity from when they first started pitching. Comparisons are also going to continue- even at 10 years old- its perfectly natural to always know where one stacks up.

Even from early ages, once a pitcher has showed some genuine ability, parents and coaches have tried everything in the book to generate the right sequence of teaching, training and coaching to exert the most potential velocity from an arm for the present and the future.

There is a reason we do not see the kids with the weak arms pitch or continue to pitch as they get older. Baseball gradations at each level filter out weak arms and either eliminate them or limit their playability altogether. Parents and kids know this and so the endless drive in youth baseball players to gain velocity will continue. Is that a bad thing? Absolutely not! Should we never gun little 10 year old Johnny? Good luck on that happening- kids and/or parents will always find a gun and the comparisons will always be the battleground for gaining velocity.

You blow my mind GBM. Parents of 10yr olds sitting at a LL game are NOT curious as to HOW fast a kid is throwing and want to gun him. LOL. Are you for real? They may look and see a kid throws hard and be impressed, but thats it. I honestly don't think I've ever seen or read from anyone on HSBBW that is as obsessed about velocity than you are my friend. It is nuts these things you say.

I knew that younggunson threw harder than most when he was 11-15 yrs old but I could've cared LESS how fast he threw. I, like him and the coaches, just wanted him to get batters out and help the team win.

Should we never gun a little 10yr old? I can't even answer this! This is ludicrous..and I ain't talking about the singer!

You really need to put the gun down and back away from it. I can only imagine how stressed your son may be with your obsession with him throwing harder at a time when he should be focusing on having fun and being consistent (mechanics) with his pitching.

I gunned our LL all-star pitching staff just to see what they were throwing. We had one kid top out at 67, one at 66 the rest at about 64 and one who topped out at about 59 with tons of cut on the ball.

We were facing one of the nation's best teams in the first round and I thought my son matched up best against them but didn't have the guts to start him figuring I might be a bit too biased so I went with one of the 64 mph guys I figured would throw a lot of strikes. He got hammered. I brought in the hardest thrower. He got hammered. I brought in the little soft tosser. He did OK but they found all the holes. I don't think it really mattered who I used in that game. After that we got good performances from all the pitchers picking up 3 or 4 wins before finally losing 2-1 to a kid who was a 5th round draft choice this year on a couple unearned runs.

The gun readings were useful only in that one of the kid's perceived velocity was much higher than the actual velocity. He was the 67 mph guy who now gets up to about 93 and is headed to BYU. That bore out his regular season performance where he absolutely dominated the bottoms of lineups but was hit some by the kids who weren't intimidated. The kid who topped at 66 actually worked 2 or 3 mph slower than the one who topped at 67 and looked even slower but tended to be more effective against the better hitters as he had more movement. He tops out at 87 to 88 these days.

Not surprisingly the little soft tosser was out of the game by HS and the ones who threw the hardest are playing college ball. The 64 mph strike thrower developed a good slider and change in HS and was a fairly effective pitcher topping out at about 82 until he hurt his arm throwing too many sliders. He didn't end up playing in college. Seems interesting that it was the kid who focused on being an effective HS pitcher by developing his slider and not his fastball was the one who ended up out of the game due to injury.

I am thinking about checking into a mental home, since I am clearly an over-obsessed parent. I need to become a nanny and worry about what all the other parents are doing.

I gunned my kid from about 11yo. I even gunned him every day he did bullpens. (You learn to catch with one hand and gun with the other ). We would try things we read about and see if they worked - or not.

I also gunned the other pitchers on his teams during practices and games. After the first reading, the kids stopped paying attention to the gun.

They all still pitch and no pitchers were hurt.

I do not gun him in HS games, though. (I don't want his coach to know I'm obsessed)

Guns are great for:
- trying out techniques (in one day, he threw 3 mph faster just by lengthening his stride)
- watch for 3-5 mph speed drop during a game (may be sore/hurt/tired)
- make sure changeups and breaking pitches have enough speed difference (CU 8 mph slower than FB, etc.)
- make sure he is not slowing up his delivery for offspeed pitch (60 mph CU, not 55 mph)
- gun opposing team pitchers and throw BP at that speed (if it's significantly faster or slower)

When my son pitched at stadiums with guns this spring I looked to see what he was throwing. The obsession never ends.

quote:

Originally posted by YoungGunDad:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

I am pretty sure that pretty much every Dad out there knew what their kid threw velocity wise when they first started throwing. If they didn't, they had a pretty good idea. Sure, we are not going to see guns popping up at little league games- I mean really- when was the last time that guns started showing up behind the backstop at little league games?

Not only parents, but the kids themselves want to know what velocity they throw- even at 10 years of age.

And we all know the rest of the story....when one kid finds out what he throws it becomes a competition of sorts to see who is the fastest thrower in a group.

From that very first reading on- whether it was at age 9 or age 15, people become obsessed with gaining more velocity. Thats not a bad thing, it eventually breeds into pitchers able to throw upper 90's and living the high life for the select few who can bring it.

Whether we like it or not, little leagues, travel leagues, etc, across the nation are going to continue to be the breeding ground for kids and parents obsessed with gaining more velocity and the endless comparisons between little Johnny and Peter will be the drive for gaining that velocity. There is not a single parent or player out there that has not obsessed to some degree over their velocity from when they first started pitching. Comparisons are also going to continue- even at 10 years old- its perfectly natural to always know where one stacks up.

Even from early ages, once a pitcher has showed some genuine ability, parents and coaches have tried everything in the book to generate the right sequence of teaching, training and coaching to exert the most potential velocity from an arm for the present and the future.

There is a reason we do not see the kids with the weak arms pitch or continue to pitch as they get older. Baseball gradations at each level filter out weak arms and either eliminate them or limit their playability altogether. Parents and kids know this and so the endless drive in youth baseball players to gain velocity will continue. Is that a bad thing? Absolutely not! Should we never gun little 10 year old Johnny? Good luck on that happening- kids and/or parents will always find a gun and the comparisons will always be the battleground for gaining velocity.

You blow my mind GBM. Parents of 10yr olds sitting at a LL game are NOT curious as to HOW fast a kid is throwing and want to gun him. LOL. Are you for real? They may look and see a kid throws hard and be impressed, but thats it. I honestly don't think I've ever seen or read from anyone on HSBBW that is as obsessed about velocity than you are my friend. It is nuts these things you say.

I knew that younggunson threw harder than most when he was 11-15 yrs old but I could've cared LESS how fast he threw. I, like him and the coaches, just wanted him to get batters out and help the team win.

Should we never gun a little 10yr old? I can't even answer this! This is ludicrous..and I ain't talking about the singer!

You really need to put the gun down and back away from it. I can only imagine how stressed your son may be with your obsession with him throwing harder at a time when he should be focusing on having fun and being consistent (mechanics) with his pitching.

I don't know of any pitcher that has pitched at least 1-2 seasons, and were good, that didn't have an idea or knowledge of what velocity their arm was capable of. Just as a sprinter knows his time, a pitcher should also know his time. Just ask any young baseball player if they have ever thrown in front of a gun either in a game, at a carnival, at a professional ballpark, etc, and they will just about for sure tell you they have. Havene't you ever been to a little league game and overheard the young kids bragging about how fast so and so is or how fast they are? Kids are actually more obsessed than parents- its bragging rights for them.

You may think I have this undue obsession with my sons velocity. Guess what? I don't even own a gun. The only time he gets gunned is when he goes to a camp (yes they gun every pitcher regardless of age), tryout, or when someone else guns him at a game curious to know what he is throwing. Is velocity important? Yes it is, otherwise we should just get the kids that can place pitches over the plate and have them be the pitchers.

The way it has always worked and will continue to work is that the hard throwers will always get the 1st nod on the mound- that is how important velocity is. And someone will always know or want to know "how fast" a pitcher throws.

I have documented how my son has progressed since he was 10 both on mechanics and velocity. And from a little research on the web, so has pretty much everyone else. So I guess we are all a little obsessed with velocity.

I will tell you this much- they do gun every pitch at the LLWS. Now why would they do that if everyone in the country wasn't at least partially interested in how fast they were throwing?

GBM, I don't think anyone is saying that the baseball world is not obsessed with velocity. I don't think anyone is saying that kids aren't competitive. At least what I am saying is that prior to a certain point, velocity should not be so important. These kids should be working on developing solid, repeatable mechanics so that when their bodies are capable of throwing at higher velocities, they will have a better chance of remaining injury free.

I also think that how hard a kid throws at an early age does not necessarily translate into how hard they will be throwing at an advanced age.

I think people are also saying that your son is not old enough to know for sure whether what you are doing will work. Your method of just telling your son to "throw harder" and do full out bullpens as often as you do is out of the norm of what is taught. At 14, you just don't know if it will help or hurt in the long run. Wait till your son is 16-18 and unhurt, then you can say how well your methods have worked.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

I don't know of any pitcher that has pitched at least 1-2 seasons, and were good, that didn't have an idea or knowledge of what velocity their arm was capable of. Just as a sprinter knows his time, a pitcher should also know his time. Just ask any young baseball player if they have ever thrown in front of a gun either in a game, at a carnival, at a professional ballpark, etc, and they will just about for sure tell you they have.

Yes, for maybe 16yr olds and up. But not any 10yr olds...LOL.

Havene't you ever been to a little league game and overheard the young kids bragging about how fast so and so is or how fast they are?

I can honestly answer no to this without hesitation.

Kids are actually more obsessed than parents- its bragging rights for them.

So you're telling me that a bunch of 10yr olds are behind the backstop wondering how fast little Billy is pitching AND wishing they threw that hard? That's a riot! LOL. If you went up and just listened, they are probably talking about how big of a bullfrog they caught or if they watched the latest episode of Power Rangers. LOL

You may think I have this undue obsession with my sons velocity. Guess what? I don't even own a gun.

You don't need a gun to put the amount of stress you probably are on your son. I can guarantee that he knows when he picks up his mitt and a ball that Dad is going to focus on that velocity. Now I'm talking about a boy who is 10 in these situations, not 14 and older. But even at 14 velocity should only be 1 of many things that should be focused on.

The way it has always worked and will continue to work is that the hard throwers will always get the 1st nod on the mound- that is how important velocity is. And someone will always know or want to know "how fast" a pitcher throws.

Sometimes I wonder if you say things just because they pop in your head or what. Where on earth do you get this philosophy from? Not everyone believe it or not is as obsessed about velocity as you so no, it will NOT always get the nod first. And just because a kid throws hard will someone want to know HOW fast he is pitching. Yes they will make an observation that he throws hard but not enough to find out.

I have documented how my son has progressed since he was 10 both on mechanics and velocity. And from a little research on the web, so has pretty much everyone else. So I guess we are all a little obsessed with velocity.

GBM, do you honestly believe that we're going to sit here and believe that you have actually documented your son's pitching velocity AND mechanics since he was 10? You can make a point without having to go over the top with it. And what kind of research on the web gives you the actual fact that everyone else has done it? No my friend, only you from what I can tell is as obsessed with this velocity topic this badly. And I do mean, badly. It's off the charts

I will tell you this much- they do gun every pitch at the LLWS. Now why would they do that if everyone in the country wasn't at least partially interested in how fast they were throwing?

I watch the LLWS each year and realize they do time the kids. But I'm sure it's because it's on National TV for the most part. I don't care how hard a 12yr old is throwing. I can tell he is throwing hard if he pitches and the batters whiff at it. I'm more impressed of the command and consistency than anything else. I bet you'd go bonkers if they didn't have the velocities popping up on TV during the LLWS each year..lol.