What's Best?

Option number 2 for me. If he isn't good enough to start, why go through the expenses in money, time, and frustation? Good coaching, having fun, staying healthy and playing time are all that matter IMO. If you can get it locally you should be good to go.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Option number 2 for me. If he isn't good enough to start, why go through the expenses in money, time, and frustation? Good coaching, having fun, staying healthy and playing time are all that matter IMO. If you can get it locally you should be good to go.

Totally agree. The practice time alone is worth its weight in gold. 12 year olds need to play. Kids can be developed locally imho as long as they play.

Number 2. Competing nationally doesn't teach a thing to a kid if he doesn't get a chance to play. Sure he gets a uniform and he can brag that he is on 'THE TEAM' but ultimately his baseball skills will not improve. He will stagnate and I suspect he will not have much fun just sitting there.

If he plays for team 2 he will have much more practice, much more interaction on the field and off the field with his teammates, much more experience actually playing the game. Coaches that have played at the Collegeate level are very good, better than most coaches and he should be able to learn a lot.

This one is a no brainer to me and I am a father of a 12 year old.

One more thing: Ask your son. What does he want to do? Last year my son played on a team that was frankly below his talent level because he wanted to be there to both play with his friends and hopefully help them win more games than they normally would. I went along with it although I personally thought a top tier team would have been a better fit for him. This year he decided that travel ball is what he wants to do so we are going that route.

Get his input, and don't try to force him to make one decision or the other. Let him know your opinions and make sure he himself voices the pros and cons to both but get his unfiltered opinion.

I just asked my 12 year old.

He gave me the exact same answer. Number 2 because he gets more chance to play and get more experience actually playing the game.

I would echo Wklink and the others: First, ask your son which he would prefer, and, second, hope that it is option 2. The playing time at a decent local level will help his development far more than the bench on a national powerhouse. At 12, he needs to be playing, and learning, the game...not watching his team bring home medals from national tourneys. jmho.

In the pre high school years development is most important. Playing and developing will take the kid further. Besides, no one remembers the preteen heros by high school.

Playing on a national team at 12U is a huge waste of money. It doesn't matter what the coaches backgrounds are if the team doesn't practice a lot. At 12U it's easy to win without coaching by recruiting the biggest physical early bloomers.

Don't worry about what position your son plays at twelve years old. He only needs to learn to be a baseball player. Chances are he'll be playing a different position by high school and almost definitely by college ball.

My son was predominantly a catcher in 12U travel and LL all-stars. He played short for two years in middle school and JV ball as a high school freshman. He moved to third to start on varsity as a sophomore. This year he's going to play center. Players play where their team needs them.

definetely number 2. Gotta get out there and get dirty.. learn from your mistakes, thats how he will get better!

At the pre HS ages the kids need to play regularly--REPS are the key along with practices

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts on the matter. This has really helped me alot. I've heard
others say that being on a highly competitive team is important because playing against better competition will get you better. Also, have heard that always being "THE STAR" on the team is not good because sometimes it keeps kids from developing work ethic in order to get better. That doesn't apply in this case because my son has always pushed himself and worked very hard on his own. Everything you've said makes perfectly good sense to me.

Another thing is the $. We may be going to Orlando two weeks in a row to compete in two different tournaments and a few other out of state tournaments. Can just imagine going over there and spending all that $ for my kid to sit the bench. Oh...and also didn't mention in previous email that this team brings in two players from long distances (one from out of state) to play in tournaments. They don't practice with the team. Yes, they are studs....big kids who've hit puberty. My son is the smallest on the team and hasn't hit that stage yet.

quote:

Oh...and also didn't mention in previous email that this team brings in two players from long distances (one from out of state) to play in tournaments. They don't practice with the team. Yes, they are studs....big kids who've hit puberty.

The teams that do this stuff will bring in more outsiders if needed to win and think nothing of throwing a dedicated, but less talented player under the bus. The team you're describing isn't about development. It's on a trophy hunt.

Play with heart. Being the best on a team also has its good side. Learning to be the number 3 hitter, having high expectations and achieving them teaches a kid to be used to the pressure. Sounds like your kid is all right. As long as his head is OK, he will be OK. Sounds like he has that covered.

And my kid is a fly in kid on occasion. No trophy hunting. The best want to play against the best. The kids on the team know that if you aren't the best you will sit on the bench. Excellent motivation to work hard IMO.

quote:

And my kid is a fly in kid on occasion. No trophy hunting. The best want to play against the best. The kids on the team know that if you aren't the best you will sit on the bench.

I don't fault the kid for wanting to play. I fault the coaches for inviting the kids and not playing their committed players. My son has been the invited player. He bumped a player off short and leadoff. There was a domino effect for positions and in the lineup. The ticked off parents were the shortstop's parents and the parents of the kid bumped out of the lineup. I wasn't comfortable being there even though it was the coaches who screwed their kids.

I never let my son be a mercenary player again unless a team was short players. Then I asked the coach to play him in the missing player's position and bat him last.

Pitching is adifferent scenario. In a challenging tournament there's no such thing as too much pitching. As long as the long time rostered pitchers get their opportunities there's nothing wrong with using extra pitchers.

On some of the higher end teams, players are continually challenged for their spots. It is part of the team concept to have the best. If someone is better than you, you sit. Just like HS, college, and the pros. There aren't any guarantees at those levels either. It is just like life unless you marry the bosses daughter.

quote:

I never let my son be a mercenary player again unless a team was short players. Then I asked the coach to play him in the missing player's position and bat him last.

RJM - You and I have had our differences but I respect your opinion. I have not heard this type of advice before but I believe it to be excellent.

I believe people need to develop humility with this sport. You may be the fly-in player today, but the also-ran player tomorrow. My son played on a local city travel team that rarely traveled outside the county and even more rarely traveled outside the state. We occasionally came across teams who used fly-in or mercenary players and it seemd to do more harm than good. I guess with pitching it is a little different if the player is brought in to pitch in the later rounds of a tournament but with position players it seems to cause lots and lots of hard feelings - and rightly so imho.

Here is a secret. Great players who love the game will become great players. Their quest may be accelerated somewhat by playing against better competition but a great player can be developed in Rhode Island just as assuredly as in Florida, Texas, or California. I believe part of being a great player is learning how to win and being a great teammate. Although winning should never be the priority at the younger ages, it is at the end of the day why we even participate in sports imho. I think your sons can learn more in the pursuit of winning with their teammates than they can ever learn in victory with mercenary players. I expect some disagreement on that assertion but that is the way I feel about it.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

I never let my son be a mercenary player again unless a team was short players. Then I asked the coach to play him in the missing player's position and bat him last.

RJM - You and I have had our differences but I respect your opinion. I have not heard this type of advice before but I believe it to be excellent.

I believe people need to develop humility with this sport. You may be the fly-in player today, but the also-ran player tomorrow. My son played on a local city travel team that rarely traveled outside the county and even more rarely traveled outside the state. We occasionally came across teams who used fly-in or mercenary players and it seemd to do more harm than good. I guess with pitching it is a little different if the player is brought in to pitch in the later rounds of a tournament but with position players it seems to cause lots and lots of hard feelings - and rightly so imho.

Here is a secret. Great players who love the game will become great players. Their quest may be accelerated somewhat by playing against better competition but a great player can be developed in Rhode Island just as assuredly as in Florida, Texas, or California. I believe part of being a great player is learning how to win and being a great teammate. Although winning should never be the priority at the younger ages, it is at the end of the day why we even participate in sports imho. I think your sons can learn more in the pursuit of winning with their teammates than they can ever learn in victory with mercenary players. I expect some disagreement on that assertion but that is the way I feel about it.

Good points CD. If a player has top level talent he will reach is potential if he works at it no matter where he lives.

I will go a little further with your next to last sentence and say that most players would rather get to the semi finals with their original team than win the championship with a couple of fly-in players. IMO it would be more enjoyable for the team and more of a sense of accomplishment.

I would guess that with teams that regularly fly in players everyone would, or should, be aware of this situation and then it's buyer beware.

fillsfan - good stuff Please send me a pm and let me know what is going on with your guy

fills ...

Wasn't it the PA Capitals who had all the "fly in" players back in 13U and 14U? I loved beating them. What I hated was watching the coaches, who expected to win berate players in front of the entire park when they failed. What really ticked me off was when the coach yelled, "I can't believe you lost to them, AGAIN." and pointed at our dugout. On paper they were better. The person who started this team went to Cooperstown at 12U and rounded up the best talent willing to get to Reading or Allentown PA on weekends. They were coming from hundreds of miles away. He financed hotels and food for families.

After losing the semis to fills' son's team we stayed for the finals (I even remember it was Rotary Park). I'm sitting with one of the Capitals player's parents (we didn't sit with no stink'n Arsenal parents in those days **). The championship game started about 7:30. The parents were moaning they had a four drive back to Long Island after the game and it was a school night (early June).

** I would have sat with fills. I didn't know him then. I didn't like Arsenal at the time over a condescending comment a parent made about my 5'2", 115 pound (at the time) son before the semi game. My son towers over this parent's kid now.

quote:

If someone is better than you, you sit. Just like HS, college, and the pros.

In high school and college no one flies in a new player in the middle of the season for a weekend. If it happens in pro ball it's a business. But the player still gets paid.

They don't fly them in RJM, but kids show up in the program year after year in HS, college and the pros. If you aren't the best at your position you are gone. Nothing else matters but who is the best at their position. Just like highly competitve travel teams. If you don't like the competition, don't play with teams that do that kind of thing. Not saying it is a good thing or a bad thing, but every kid and every parent on the teams that fly in kids know that it can and will happen.

Makes for a highly competitve atmosphere. Which leads me back to HS, college, and the pros. No guarantees, no daddy ball.

Just be the best or be replaced. Life lesson time.

RJM,
I don't remember if they had fill ins or not, but what I do remember how much fun it was to spend a weekend watching a half dozen baseball games being played by bunch of 13 year olds who didn't care what scouts were there or how hard they were throwing. They were just having fun.

RJM,
Is Rotary Field the one at the top of the mountain/hill. If so I remember that game now. If it's the game I'm thinking of we lost maybe 5-4 or 6-4. They did have a firey coach and the game was kind of loud.

I remember they had a big strong pitcher who was their best player. Maybe they dropped him off a helicopter since the field was the highest point in Reading.

I understand about the if he's not good enough to play he'll sit the bench. But, again I'd like to state that these other boys have all hit puberty and have man-like bodies. My son at 12 still hasn't hit puberty, but has a lot of skill. I'm a single mom (his dad died at age 4)and had no idea that his talent was what it is until I started getting stopped in parking lots after games by other coaches and was told that he had something special. I don't want him to lose that "something special" because I made wrong decisions for him. I also know that I can't control it all. He is a lot smaller than these other boys, but even so, was INVITED to play on this team. We did not seek them out....they contacted us (recruited him). He does play, just not at the positions he was used to playing, and sitting sometimes is something new to him. Also, this team has an original CORE of about 6 players and two "fly-ins". The coaches say that what he doesn't have in size he makes up for in speed. The boys have nicknamed him FREAKY because of his "freaky" baserunning. He has a great attitude about it.....when getting on the team I tried to prepare him for the kind of talent that was on the team and that he would not be the "star" anymore. He said that he'd work hard to earn his spot. I just don't think he can right now because of a size issue. Not to say these other boys aren't talented (they are), but combine size with talent and he's at a disadvantage right now. He works very hard. Hits off a tee in the garage EVERY night for an hour or more, runs sprints on his own, he has a "work-out routine" he's made up for himself. He's also always been the leader on the team. Never cocky....always bringing the whole team up. His coaches have said he has that "something" you can't teach....drive, competitiveness...ability to lead. Anyway...like I told him....he WILL grow one day and if he continues to develop his skills and work hard he'll be okay. Just wanted to know what kind of team was best for right now. Like I've said....have heard conflicting opinions regarding this. Have heard that he needs to play on most competitive team possible, but most of you say that its more important that he play and get in lots of practice. When you have a team where players are flown in it really takes away from the whole "TEAM" aspect of the game. I'm just not sure this is best at this age, and it's certainly not as FUN!!! Thanks everybody!

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
RJM,
Is Rotary Field the one at the top of the mountain/hill. If so I remember that game now. If it's the game I'm thinking of we lost maybe 5-4 or 6-4. They did have a firey coach and the game was kind of loud.

I remember they had a big strong pitcher who was their best player. Maybe they dropped him off a helicopter since the field was the highest point in Reading.

You have the correct field. Rotary had the short rightfield fence with the 50/70 field behind it. Center was very deep. The concession stand was way behind center field.

I remember that game. The Capitals had a pitcher throw a complete game in the semi, started at catcher in the final and closed out the championship game on the mound. I wonder if he lasted until high school.

quote:

have heard conflicting opinions regarding this. Have heard that he needs to play on most competitive team possible

This would be true in high school for the purpose of getting to college ball. Until then it's about development. People don't remember who won the pre high school tournaments unless they played in them. Even then I couldn't name most of the tournaments my son's teams won.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
They don't fly them in RJM, but kids show up in the program year after year in HS, college and the pros. If you aren't the best at your position you are gone. Nothing else matters but who is the best at their position. Just like highly competitve travel teams. If you don't like the competition, don't play with teams that do that kind of thing. Not saying it is a good thing or a bad thing, but every kid and every parent on the teams that fly in kids know that it can and will happen.

Makes for a highly competitve atmosphere. Which leads me back to HS, college, and the pros. No guarantees, no daddy ball.

Just be the best or be replaced. Life lesson time.

I've never heard of a high school team bringing in players from other areas to play one or two games.

I am pretty sure NCAA rules prohibit bringing in mercinary players to take positions in games as well. I have never heard of players on high school teams being kicked off of teams for a week while some kid from another school district comes in and plays for them.

Bringing in ringers to win games teaches kids that they are expendable and that the concept of team is nothing but that.

Baseball at this level should be more than just playing a game. It is supposed to teach kids life lessons about teamwork and comittment. Baseball gives kids the opportunity to contribute their best to help the team to win. In addition a team gives a child a change to be part of something. What other game is there where a kid can be called a hero for doing something a simple as putting down a sacrifice bunt?

I'm all for winning; I constantly drill my son on the need to put forth every effort possible to win but I'm sorry, bringing in ringers and kicking kids off of teams just to get that win doesn't breed competition. It just gives kids the idea that they are of no value and can be replaced at the drop of a hat.

Your son is just 12 years old. Don't think for one minute you are hurting his chances of being all he can be in this game by rushing out and playing on one of these teams. In fact you may be by doing so. What he needs to be doing at this age is learning the game and enjoy playing the game. There will be plenty of time in the future to seek out top tier teams for him to play on. The focus should be on the type of coaching and instruction he is getting with the major focus on enjoying simply competing and playing the game.

WKlink,
Have you never been to a HS or college where a transfer comes in and takes somebodies spot? Or someone who was a starter last year gets beat out this year? It is competition. 2 years ago we had a kid transfer in that was a catcher. A real good catcher. Everybody got bumped down one spot on the depth chart. Since he was a sophmore, a few never caught again. He has signed with U of A. We had a kid transfer out. He is a D1 early signee. I know he took someones spot out in Cali. We have three freshman starting on JV. They knocked some kids out of their spots and out of baseball. It is the same thing to me as flying someone in.

Baseball is about competition.

Doughnutman in HS and College I agree totally. At 12? Thats way too early imo.

I have been a part of many different teams over the years. I have coached hand picked teams where we went out and scouted the players and got players based on information I was given from very reliable sources. We won alot. We were very talented. And then you are always looking for that upgrade at a certain posistion or more depth at others. Its kind of a hollow feeling as a coach when your winning just because you found more talent than the other team your playing that day.

I have also taken a group of kids that had some talent but also had a strong desire to work to be the very best they could be. We built a relationship. We worked on their game and we had a game plan for each player. We were loyal to our guys and they were loyal to us. We won alot of games. We saw them grow as players over the years and as young men. It is much more fullfilling to me as a coach to build something than buy it. And it is very rewarding to see a player develop into a player that others want to buy. Buy he is not willing to sell out.

I have seen players replaced many times on teams over the years. Except the coaches kids. For some reason they get a pass.

Why are the parents today so eager to move thses young kids along so fast ??

I do not understand it at such an early age

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
WKlink,
Have you never been to a HS or college where a transfer comes in and takes somebodies spot? Or someone who was a starter last year gets beat out this year? It is competition. 2 years ago we had a kid transfer in that was a catcher. A real good catcher. Everybody got bumped down one spot on the depth chart. Since he was a sophmore, a few never caught again. He has signed with U of A. We had a kid transfer out. He is a D1 early signee. I know he took someones spot out in Cali. We have three freshman starting on JV. They knocked some kids out of their spots and out of baseball. It is the same thing to me as flying someone in.

Baseball is about competition.

This exchange started by twisting my words. NEVER, I repeat NEVER has a player been brought into a high school or college program and an existing player been thrown under the bus in midseason. A high school and college program can't bring in a player from another team for a weekend. The roster the following season is a whole new show. It's win at all cost travel programs who throw their players under the bus for a weekend for mercenaries.

A well known showcase program in our area was recruiting my son. I lost interest when I heard a story from a friend. I asked him when his son ever played for this team. His name was on the alumni roster. The friend said his son has never been to the facility. At a PG event he was asked along with two other names you might recognize to play for the team in Jupiter. Regular position starters were thrown under the bus.

If I paid $5,500 for my son to get exposure and he was replaced by outsiders free of charge I'd be outraged. A showcase team is a product. When they throw paying customers under the bus they are not rendering services.

TR ... If you're reading this, my comments are about the team you warned me about when we talked at Neumann a couple of summers ago.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Why are the parents today so eager to move thses young kids along so fast ??

I do not understand it at such an early age

TR, IMO the answer is ego. Make mom and dad feel special to have people recruiting their player. It can be intoxicating if you let it. I don't necessarily speak from personal experience but I can hear it in parents voices when they tell me what other travel teams are calling for their sons.

I say find a team that fits your son's talent level, goes to the appropriate tournaments and improves year to year. Stick with it and all your dreams will come true as long as the kid performs.

quote:

the answer is ego

How often have you seen a parent thumping their chest when their son is being recruited by a travel team, then complain when they don't play a lot? Finding the right fit is very important.

Personally, I don't see the need to be anything more than a local (within 100 miles) travel team until high school. It's a waste of money. Want to do one "travel" tournament for team bonding and fun? We did that before 16U ball.

After "traveling" a lot last summer with a 17U team I don't understand how parents of preteens can call it a great experience to be away from home weekend after weekend and arriving home late Sunday night. Hotel rooms and restaurant food gets tiresome (maybe I've traveled too much professionally in the past/maybe I have a life). I'll bet a lot of parents burn out on it before high school.

RJM,
Two words.
Decaffienated coffee .

Some kids like the competition and some kids don't. Kids get replaced on every team my son has played on including LL. I just don't see what the big deal is about a better player taking a spot. It is the very nature of sports and all other forms of competition. It happens to everyone at some point in their life. In all things. It happens way before the age of 12. Spelling bees, kick ball, you name it. Better beats out worse unless there is some type of artificial pressure keeping the better in place.


My analogy was in the competition in HS and college. Not the fly in part. That is only a matter of degree. In both cases you are being replaced by someone who is better than you.

quote:

Kids get replaced on every team my son has played on including LL.

You're making things up. No one joins a LL roster in midseason for a weekend from another team.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
RJM,
Two words.
Decaffienated coffee .

Some kids like the competition and some kids don't. Kids get replaced on every team my son has played on including LL. I just don't see what the big deal is about a better player taking a spot. It is the very nature of sports and all other forms of competition. It happens to everyone at some point in their life. In all things. It happens way before the age of 12. Spelling bees, kick ball, you name it. Better beats out worse unless there is some type of artificial pressure keeping the better in place.


My analogy was in the competition in HS and college. Not the fly in part. That is only a matter of degree. In both cases you are being replaced by someone who is better than you.

I'll stick with Coach May's philosophy of building a team with loyalty and respect being a mutual action. My son has been the "fly in". After watching his playing send a dedicated team member to the bench I decided it wasn't right. This was that kids's team. My son had a team. This one wasn't it.

"You're making things up. No one joins a LL roster in midseason for a weekend from another team."

We have had kids show up late and get put on teams. We have had kids outplay someone and take their spots. We have had kids brought up from the minors who beat out a starter. It isn't just for a weekend, but it is being replaced.

I think you might be intentionally trying not to understand me for some reason. Kids get beat out and replaced at all levels. The better kid takes the spot unless some pressure(typically a Dad) doesn't allow it. In my mind, I see no difference in some kid being replaced by a fly in or by a team mate.

Bottom line, you lost your spot and it doesn't matter how it happened. It is competition and it is all the same. Being fair doesn't mean squat.

quote:

After watching his playing send a dedicated team member to the bench I decided it wasn't right

Then the team wasn't a true fly in team. Those teams know it can happen and are prepared for it. How do you think the kids got on the team and their spots in the first place.

It sounds more like your son was filling in on a local team that had been around a while. That can be a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:

quote:

After watching his playing send a dedicated team member to the bench I decided it wasn't right

Then the team wasn't a true fly in team. Those teams know it can happen and are prepared for it. How do you think the kids got on the team and their spots in the first place.

It sounds more like your son was filling in on a local team that had been around a while. That can be a problem.

He was invited to play on a very reputable/highly ranked 14U team. He was better than their shortstop. This team ultimately met it's demise utilizing too many "fly ins". Most of them returned to their teams. Why should they walk out on their current teams? What about loyalty? Players leave teams at the end of the season, not abandon them in the middle of the season. The only thing the coach accomplished was ticking off his team.

Most of this cr@p goes away by high school. Most showcase coaches are into helping their players, not screwing them (except the example I mentioned earlier).

I'll still stick with Coach May's philosophy of building a team and developing mutual loyalty and respect between players and coaches. I wouldn't want teammates and coaches who don't have my back.

Over and out.