A Recruiting Story

@PitchingFan posted:

I know this is the case at some schools but I must defend Tennessee who has been accused of it, not on here but in other circles.  Their starting lineup this year as the #1 team in the nation is

5th year new catcher who moved from LF and transformed himself, 6th year first baseman, new starting second baseman junior, new starting SS junior, new starting third baseman junior, LF is a mixed bag as no one has claimed that spot which includes juco transfer, freshman, sophomore, and junior.  CF and LF are three year starters.

Pitchers: Friday guy is freshman, Saturday guy is transfer sophomore from mid major, Sunday guy is freshman, first RHP out of bullpen is senior, second RHP is junior, closer is juco junior transfer who sat out last year due to TJ but was at UT, first LHP out of bullpen is junior who has played all three years, second is junior who really came on this year, and LHP closer is 5th year who has played four years.

DH role is mix with 2 juniors and 2 freshmen.

Our coaching staff has done a great job of keeping guys who were not getting playing time and recruiting high end guys.  Add in a small mix of transfers, juco and D1.  They have gotten guys to buy into the program and wait their turn and they are being rewarded by it and will be drafted for it.  Covid helped with the 2 fifth year and 1 sixth year guys.  I think they have strong mix of guys who played from day one to guys who waited and were developed.  Our pitching staff has been developed by one of the best in the nation at any level and hitters are incredible.

Agree.  Players need to understand, when $$$ are involved it is the business of college baseball.

@Shoveit4Ks posted:

I'd be willing to follow John and see what happens if you have the time to update the board occasionally. Who knows how many of the 18 POs will stay healthy,? Will John? And if so would that help him get the mound time? Clemson has an outstanding academic support program with mandatory study hall hours for classwork...which is enforced by the HC and definitely helped my son along the way... Good post, @Adbono

I forgot about this thread until I got a notice about it today. So here is an update. “John” (predictably) had an up and down fall on the baseball field. But by all accounts he made the Dean’s List in chasing coeds. He reached out to my pitching coaching partner (but not to me) during the fall for advice, support, and counsel. I view that as a good thing. John’s Big12 school had their home opener yesterday and John was the last of the 39 players listed on the 2023 roster, which was released one hour before the game started. Of the 39 players listed, 22 are pitchers and I think that 5 are freshmen. During the course of a college season the bulk (90%) of the innings are usually pitched by 10-12 pitchers if everyone stays healthy. Injuries can impact that number. If you take the 22 pitchers on the staff and subtract the 5 inexperienced freshmen that still leaves 17 more experienced pitchers who will throw the bulk of the innings this season. Unfortunately the pitchers that are actually getting on the mound will be the only ones getting attention from the coaches during the season. My prediction for John is that he will pitch 10 or less meaningless innings this spring and won’t be coached. That is pretty typical for a P5 freshman pitcher that wasn’t an MLB draft selection. Especially at this particular school. Another little trick this school keeps up its sleeve is that, following a freshman year like I described, they like to take away the players scholarship right before the start of the sophomore year (when the player has no options) and then convince the player to stay and pay 100% of their own expenses. Anyone that doesn’t understand that high level D1 baseball is all business just doesn’t want to see the truth.

Adbono;

What Summer League will "John" play? Did you or his Coach arrange the team? Another "key" to a player's future is the placement by the College Coach.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Adbono;

What Summer League will "John" play? Did you or his Coach arrange the team? Another "key" to a player's future is the placement by the College Coach.

Bob

I don’t know what has been arranged for summer ball for John. I’m sure it will be a decision made by someone on his college coaching staff.

Adbono

if they decide John will not fit in the future, they will not assist with a placement.
Bob

@adbono posted:

Excellent post!  This is what so many people don’t realize has changed b/c of NCAA rulings regarding Covid. There is no longer ANY development at most competitive D1 programs. Not only do D1 coaching staffs not want to spend their time developing young players, now they don’t have to. Much easier to comb the transfer portal and recruit Juco guys. Both already have experience. I can’t blame 4 year schools for taking advantage of this. But I do blame them for continuing to recruit HS grads that they don’t need and have no intention of developing. The entire situation is caveat emptor like never before.

I question the statement again about "hardly any development at most competitive programs".  Can you please explain.

Yes, there is some funny business going on with getting premium players from the portal but I don't believe coaches just let them loose to do their thing. Coaches have standards for their programs, but maybe that doesn't apply to the coaches in Texas?

Also my understanding is that P5 programs give scholarships for 4 years. My understanding it's all or nothing.

John's parents have just as much responsibility in the failure of this player as do the coaches.

JMO

@TPM posted:

I question the statement again about "hardly any development at most competitive programs".  Can you please explain.

Yes, there is some funny business going on with getting premium players from the portal but I don't believe coaches just let them loose to do their thing. Coaches have standards for their programs, but maybe that doesn't apply to the coaches in Texas?

Also my understanding is that P5 programs give scholarships for 4 years. My understanding it's all or nothing.

John's parents have just as much responsibility in the failure of this player as do the coaches.

JMO

IMHO the jury is still out.

Based on fall rosters we compared incoming recruiting class for 2022 vs projection 2023 season.

Now that season has started, we are collecting and cleaning up spring rosters and should have new insights by feb 23 for all conferences.

CBI, can you give us a verbal summary of that?  I read it as meaning that in all P5 except the ACC, about 40% of the new players are transfers?  And, except for the Pac-12, more from 4-year schools than from jucos?

Are the numbers similar for non-P5 schools?

Of course, then the question will be, who gets the playing time?

@anotherparent posted:

CBI, can you give us a verbal summary of that?  I read it as meaning that in all P5 except the ACC, about 40% of the new players are transfers?  And, except for the Pac-12, more from 4-year schools than from jucos?

Are the numbers similar for non-P5 schools?

Of course, then the question will be, who gets the playing time?

Visualization is self explanatory, there was minimal change within the conferences pertaining to the source of incoming recruiting class.

As the non-p5, we have the information, will determine if it will be shared.

@TPM posted:

I question the statement again about "hardly any development at most competitive programs".  Can you please explain.

Yes, there is some funny business going on with getting premium players from the portal but I don't believe coaches just let them loose to do their thing. Coaches have standards for their programs, but maybe that doesn't apply to the coaches in Texas?

Also my understanding is that P5 programs give scholarships for 4 years. My understanding it's all or nothing.

John's parents have just as much responsibility in the failure of this player as do the coaches.

JMO

  In one of my earlier posts I clearly stated that John’s parents are largely responsible for his current situation. They lied to me, and to many others, in the process of John’s recruiting journey. Ultimately what happens to John will fall at their feet more than anyone else.
   The other things that you question have all been discussed ad nauseam on HSBBW, Twitter, etc. for the past 3 years. That ship has sailed.

@adbono posted:

There is no longer ANY development at most competitive D1 programs.

I am just asking about your statement, again.

You are the one who keeps repeating it.

I see it as an insult to all the coaches and programs who work their butts off.

Perhaps these programs who you know of need do a better job at recruiting instead of scooping up in state mediocre players so the other program doesn't get them.

You know that happens.

@TPM posted:

I am just asking about your statement, again.

You are the one who keeps repeating it.

I see it as an insult to all the coaches and programs who work their butts off.

Perhaps these programs who you know of need do a better job at recruiting instead of scooping up in state mediocre players so the other program doesn't get them.

You know that happens.

I state things that I know to be true for the benefit of the members and visitors on HSBBW. You can like, dislike, agree, disagree or whatever. I don’t really care.

TPM and adbino:

"Time out"! Are we discussing the College Coach's plan to "Develop the Player's 6 Tools" ? This objective requires a extensive lesson plan. Group and individual.

During the 17 years of the Area Code games and Tryouts and many discussions with College Coaches, the definition of "Development of the Player's 6 tools" was not a organized

Maybe with the addition of former Pro Players as College Coaches and the reduction of roosters, we can expect teaching of the improvement of a player's tool box.

The clinics at the College Coaches Convention have provided this education. As Joe Morgan [Giants Coach] related at one of our SF Giants Clinics.

"I can talk about base running and base stealing for 10 minutes or 10 hours which one do you want"?

Bob

@Consultant posted:

TPM and adbino:

"Time out"! Are we discussing the College Coach's plan to "Develop the Player's 6 Tools" ? This objective requires a extensive lesson plan. Group and individual.

During the 17 years of the Area Code games and Tryouts and many discussions with College Coaches, the definition of "Development of the Player's 6 tools" was not a organized

Maybe with the addition of former Pro Players as College Coaches and the reduction of roosters, we can expect teaching of the improvement of a player's tool box.

The clinics at the College Coaches Convention have provided this education. As Joe Morgan [Giants Coach] related at one of our SF Giants Clinics.

"I can talk about base running and base stealing for 10 minutes or 10 hours which one do you want"?

Bob

I think we have a failure to communicate. IMO if a top level D1 school brings in a 22 man freshman class (which is typical) cuts 12 of them at semester (which is typical), carries 10 in the spring, but only a 2-3 get meaningful reps and coaching, I call that a failure to develop young talent. However, if you are one of the 2-3 (out of 22) that is actually playing and improving you would have a different opinion. Like everything else, it turns into an assessment of probability.

One program bringing in too many freshman doesn't mean that "there is no more development at most competitive D1 programs".

@adbono posted:

I think we have a failure to communicate. IMO if a top level D1 school brings in a 22 man freshman class (which is typical) cuts 12 of them at semester (which is typical), carries 10 in the spring, but only a 2-3 get meaningful reps and coaching, I call that a failure to develop young talent. However, if you are one of the 2-3 (out of 22) that is actually playing and improving you would have a different opinion. Like everything else, it turns into an assessment of probability.

Just to make sure I understand, when you say meaningful reps, are you talking about reps in their freshman year?

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Just to make sure I understand, when you say meaningful reps, are you talking about reps in their freshman year?

I define “development” as some combination of meaningful reps in practice/games AND attention from coaches during the season in the form of supervision, video analysis, and personal instruction. That’s what all players need in order to improve during their freshman and sophomore years. It varies from program to program how well this occurs. And it’s often not the bigger name programs that do the best job with it. But since Covid : extra years of eligibility, the transfer portal, and the reduction of the MLB draft to 20 rounds, the focus in college baseball has shifted drastically to older, proven players. Since there is an over-supply of them these players are being sought out by the most competitive D1 programs at the expense of developing young players in their own programs. This approach is all about immediate results and it requires less work on the part of the coaching staff. It’s essentially a new business model that has evolved as a result of the circumstances. Some schools have bought into this completely and some just partially. But they are all doing it to some extent at the most competitive D1 programs. There are still some coaches that work hard at developing young players. But they are in the vast minority at this point in time. It’s no different than an employer considering a hiring decision. Would you rather hire an experienced person that has proven they already know how to do the job? Or would you rather hire an inexperienced person and hope that you can train them to do the job well? That’s where we are.

As far as development at D1's.  I can't speak for all of them, but I can assure you there are some schools/coaches that do ZERO to develop players.  My son played at a mid-major and in 4 years I didn't see one kid who improved even a small part due to coaching.  In fact, most of them regressed significantly.  Son said practices were less coordinated than he had in travel ball and HS.  The coach isn't there any more, but it's easy to see why they never won more than 10 games in a season and missed the conference tourney every year.   They are in season 3 of a new coach (started after my son left) and the team has improved each of the 3 seasons.  Son is still friends with some of the players.  He said it's night and day different than what it was like when he was there as far as how the season/practice/workouts/training are done.

@TPM posted:

I question the statement again about "hardly any development at most competitive programs".  Can you please explain.

Yes, there is some funny business going on with getting premium players from the portal but I don't believe coaches just let them loose to do their thing. Coaches have standards for their programs, but maybe that doesn't apply to the coaches in Texas?

I know for a fact this happens.  I know of a P5 pitcher who's at a top 25 team.  His freshman year he was having teammates take videos of bullpens to send back to his club pitching coach for help.  They were focused on winning a CWS, not help a freshman pitcher who only threw 15 innings.

He's a weekend starter now.

I can speak to my son's school UT.  I believe there are kids on both sides. If you ask the ones there, they will tell you they are developed but if you ask the ones who left they will say they weren't.  I can also speak to my middle son's experience.  He was the kid who went from mid 90's LHP to topping at 90 his senior year because the pitching coach did not believe in long toss or throwing between outings and didn't really believe in fall workouts.  Saw several guys regress there.  Some got better but it was really because they got bigger and stronger and matured.  Son was already big and strong when he got there and lack of throwing hurt him.  I also blame him for not doing it even though I harassed him all the time about his lack of throwing.    I think your experience at a school determines your thoughts on the school and the process.

Re: One of son’s travel teammates at a P5 …

Looking back it was obvious the head coach didn’t like his recruiting coach’s recruiting effort on this player. The head coach had his assistants try to change almost everything about the kid’s game. In the spring the kid received zero attention. He didn’t travel. The third time he was the only end of bench player not to get into a lopsided home game he went to the coach.

The coach told him at the end of the season he was going to be told he wasn’t going to be invited back. The kid asked why he wasn’t told after fall ball so he could transfer then. The fireworks started. He was cut on the spot.

I had coached this kid through 16u and watched him for two years in 17u. I saw him as a solid top D2 prospect. This P5 was his only D1 offer. The rest of the 17u team went D1. Every player had P5 offers. Maybe the kid played, “me too.” It was a mistake. A recruit and the parents have to ask themselves honestly, what does this program see that not one other D1 sees? The kid didn’t play freshman year, transferred to a mid major and sat for transfer soph year, got beat out for a starting position his academic junior year and quit baseball.

Had he gone D2 he might have starred. The problem I saw I was the kid was a physical early bloomer. By the time he was a senior in high school I didn’t see how he could get much quicker and stronger. My son and several travel teammates suspected the kid was on roids.

@Master P posted:

I know for a fact this happens.  I know of a P5 pitcher who's at a top 25 team.  His freshman year he was having teammates take videos of bullpens to send back to his club pitching coach for help.  They were focused on winning a CWS, not help a freshman pitcher who only threw 15 innings.

He's a weekend starter now.

I never stated that it never happens. I challenged the statement that "there is no more development at most D1 competitive programs".

These days if you don't get the job DONE as a coach, you lose your job. That goes for low to mid D1 as well as P5 programs. Go to the D1 coaching carousel. Some HC coaches get fired but end up immediately as assistants in other places. I have to shake my head sometimes but usually it becomes a better fit.

Most of the bigger more competitive programs now have plenty of qualified staff to work with freshman and have created positions for this purpose. Many have employed scouts as assistants while the other coaches remain on campus.

It's your job as future freshman parents and your son's job to find out what goes on during fall practice. I met a parent a few weeks ago who told me that he understood the process and would only let his son play for a fair coach who would give his son a shot. Well guess what, the freshman got his shot this weekend and proved he belonged. He thrived in fall practice but he also was a highly ranked player out of HS. Make sure that your player understands how it works.

@RJM posted:

Re: One of son’s travel teammates at a P5 ….

I had coached this kid through 16u and watched him for two years in 17u. I saw him as a solid top D2 prospect. This P5 was his only D1 offer. The rest of the 17u team went D1. Every player had P5 offers. Maybe the kid played, “me too.” It was a mistake. A recruit and the parents have to ask themselves honestly, what does this program see that not one other D1 sees? The kid didn’t play freshman year, transferred to a mid major and sat for transfer soph year, got beat out for a starting position his academic junior year and quit baseball.

Had he gone D2 he might have starred. The problem I saw I was the kid was a physical early bloomer. By the time he was a senior in high school I didn’t see how he could get much quicker and stronger. My son and several travel teammates suspected the kid was on roids.

I wonder how many parents who feel that their kid is "D1 or bust" have even been at a D1 game before their son commits?  When my son was a junior and was getting his first D1 attention I took a Sunday afternoon and went and watched a D1 game.  Keep in mind I had formed & was an assistant coach on his 15U/16u teams that had several guys getting D1 and D2 interest by this point so I felt like I had a pretty good idea of what I watch watching that day.  He didn't know I had gone.  I got home and told him about it and said "I really think you can play at that level, so if that's what you want, then go for it".  Turns out he ended up playing for one of the two schools I watched that day.

I guess my point is that parents in a lot of cases probably should get some help and insight from someone knowledgeable and that they trust to give them their thoughts.  Can the kid make the team?  If he does will he play?   Will he sit for 2 years?   It seems like every parent of an incoming freshman thought their kid would get significant playing time right away.  Fortunately my son did, but we knew going in that several of the guys in his freshman class wouldn't....and we knew which two for sure wouldn't handle it well.  They didn't (and neither did their parents) and both were gone after their freshman year.

@RJM posted:

Re: One of son’s travel teammates at a P5 …

Looking back it was obvious the head coach didn’t like his recruiting coach’s recruiting effort on this player. The head coach had his assistants try to change almost everything about the kid’s game. In the spring the kid received zero attention. He didn’t travel. The third time he was the only end of bench player not to get into a lopsided home game he went to the coach.

The coach told him at the end of the season he was going to be told he wasn’t going to be invited back. The kid asked why he wasn’t told after fall ball so he could transfer then. The fireworks started. He was cut on the spot.

I had coached this kid through 16u and watched him for two years in 17u. I saw him as a solid top D2 prospect. This P5 was his only D1 offer. The rest of the 17u team went D1. Every player had P5 offers. Maybe the kid played, “me too.” It was a mistake. A recruit and the parents have to ask themselves honestly, what does this program see that not one other D1 sees? The kid didn’t play freshman year, transferred to a mid major and sat for transfer soph year, got beat out for a starting position his academic junior year and quit baseball.

Had he gone D2 he might have starred. The problem I saw I was the kid was a physical early bloomer. By the time he was a senior in high school I didn’t see how he could get much quicker and stronger. My son and several travel teammates suspected the kid was on roids.

I was going to ask how could a kid, whether he is fully grown or not, could NOT get faster/stronger in college?  I understand the lifting and the workouts are even more intense and longer once you get into college.  Then I read the last line.  I guess if he was on steroids he might have reached his max strength and speed.

@adbono posted:

I forgot about this thread until I got a notice about it today. So here is an update. “John” (predictably) had an up and down fall on the baseball field. But by all accounts he made the Dean’s List in chasing coeds. He reached out to my pitching coaching partner (but not to me) during the fall for advice, support, and counsel. I view that as a good thing. John’s Big12 school had their home opener yesterday and John was the last of the 39 players listed on the 2023 roster, which was released one hour before the game started. Of the 39 players listed, 22 are pitchers and I think that 5 are freshmen. During the course of a college season the bulk (90%) of the innings are usually pitched by 10-12 pitchers if everyone stays healthy. Injuries can impact that number. If you take the 22 pitchers on the staff and subtract the 5 inexperienced freshmen that still leaves 17 more experienced pitchers who will throw the bulk of the innings this season. Unfortunately the pitchers that are actually getting on the mound will be the only ones getting attention from the coaches during the season. My prediction for John is that he will pitch 10 or less meaningless innings this spring and won’t be coached. That is pretty typical for a P5 freshman pitcher that wasn’t an MLB draft selection. Especially at this particular school. Another little trick this school keeps up its sleeve is that, following a freshman year like I described, they like to take away the players scholarship right before the start of the sophomore year (when the player has no options) and then convince the player to stay and pay 100% of their own expenses. Anyone that doesn’t understand that high level D1 baseball is all business just doesn’t want to see the truth.

Are you kidding me?  That is a dick move, in all aspects.  not helping the kid develop and then pulling the scholarship when he has no options.  Man, if my kid ever becomes good enough to play at a top school, I pray I can recognize something like this and avoid the school. 

I guess I didn't realize how ruthless it is.  Even in corporate America they invest in their employees and try and develop them.   I am glad I read this thread and pass on to my boys that they must take charge of their development even in college.  

@Dadof3 posted:

I guess I didn't realize how ruthless it is.  Even in corporate America they invest in their employees and try and develop them.   I am glad I read this thread and pass on to my boys that they must take charge of their development even in college.  

There are a lot of very fine mid D1 programs with great coaching staffs in all parts of the country. I believe ever player can find a home but they must be realistic in their search.

I do not recommend anyone go into a top 25 program unless someone has identified your player as a top prospect.

Not that they don't  develop but it's very difficult to play as often as you think you should. Some players know they have to wait, others just leave.

@Dadof3 posted:

I guess I didn't realize how ruthless it is.  Even in corporate America they invest in their employees and try and develop them.   I am glad I read this thread and pass on to my boys that they must take charge of their development even in college.  

That is the thing to take away from this thread. Every player needs to be in charge of every aspect of his own career- including development. Things are in a constant state of flux and it’s up to the player to create his own plan and work it.

@adbono posted:

That is the thing to take away from this thread. Every player needs to be in charge of every aspect of his own career- including development. Things are in a constant state of flux and it’s up to the player to create his own plan and work it.

That I agree with 100%!

Example:  Wyatt Langford

Someone asked me this week how you know if a kid is top P5 player?  I gave several things from this thread and actually pointed them here.  But I also finished with in today's world if they are not getting some professional MLB interest, questionnaires and scout conversations in HS, they probably will struggle at that level.  Not saying you can't, but even those who beat the odds will tell you it is tough.  On son's podcast, the ones who did not get that interest out of HS that play or played at UT, have all said I had to work my butt off to have a chance because I was going against the grain.  We also know a bunch that realized they were in over their heads.  Son's freshman roommate was one who got redshirted freshman year and realized he was a great HS player but in over his head at UT.  Transferred and has had a great three years at a smaller school.  He found the "right pond".   He might could have stayed and played a little but he also might have stayed and never played.  He made what was the best choice for him.

I don't think lack of coaching is the issue. I think lack of coaching for roster numbers 25-40 is the issue.

It's pretty bizarre that these guys who are supposed to be baseball guys cannot get an end of the roster guy to at least become a spot starter or situational player within a year or two. The fact that they have to cut 7-12 players every year shows they are lazy with recruiting and are not necessarily the baseball savants they're made out to be.

@PitchingFan is correct. The amount (or lack thereof) of interest from MLB scouts is the best litmus test indicator of top P5 talent. In essence that is the market telling those players they belong at that level. And they are right most of the time - as their jobs depend on them being right. Things tend to go pretty well for players of that caliber when they opt to play in college. Superstars always have an easier path if they can stay healthy. But there are a lot of really good players just below the superstar level and things have gotten more difficult for that group and everyone below them. That’s why being in the right pond is more important than ever. There is more to it than baseball - even for guys at P5 programs. Things like academic progress, confidence, and happiness. It’s rare for a player to reach his potential if he isn’t happy. The overall environment that a player lives in every day is as important as anything else.

@PABaseball wrote, “I think lack of coaching roster numbers 25-40 is the issue.”

I agree. That would be called lack of development, wouldn’t it ?!?

@adbono posted:

@PABaseball wrote, “I think lack of coaching roster numbers 25-40 is the issue.”

I agree. That would be called lack of development, wouldn’t it ?!?

Correct. It's really sad.

Youngest is a freshman at a mid major. Turned down a few 25-30% P5 offers to be at his current school. Opened against a P5 this weekend. I thought he was better than the freshmen the P5 rolled out. I also knew that if he struggled at all in the fall he would've been cut by Halloween. He will be much better off getting more attention and instruction at his current school.

Besides development, what about players (pitchers in particular) health? It seems that as you go further down the D1 chain coaches will ride the hot arm until it basically falls off.

NYC DAD

Pitchers are special and it is the informative prospective player and parent who will ask the "proper" questions when interviewed.

Of course, the school publishes the pitcher's innings, record, # of strikes, balls, ground outs, fly balls. It is all available. Research and Analyze.

Bob

@PABaseball posted:

I don't think lack of coaching is the issue. I think lack of coaching for roster numbers 25-40 is the issue.

It's pretty bizarre that these guys who are supposed to be baseball guys cannot get an end of the roster guy to at least become a spot starter or situational player within a year or two. The fact that they have to cut 7-12 players every year shows they are lazy with recruiting and are not necessarily the baseball savants they're made out to be.

Why put in the time with players unlikely to be on the roster next year?

@Buckeye 2015 posted:

I wonder how many parents who feel that their kid is "D1 or bust" have even been at a D1 game before their son commits?  When my son was a junior and was getting his first D1 attention I took a Sunday afternoon and went and watched a D1 game.  Keep in mind I had formed & was an assistant coach on his 15U/16u teams that had several guys getting D1 and D2 interest by this point so I felt like I had a pretty good idea of what I watch watching that day.  He didn't know I had gone.  I got home and told him about it and said "I really think you can play at that level, so if that's what you want, then go for it".  Turns out he ended up playing for one of the two schools I watched that day.

I guess my point is that parents in a lot of cases probably should get some help and insight from someone knowledgeable and that they trust to give them their thoughts.  Can the kid make the team?  If he does will he play?   Will he sit for 2 years?   It seems like every parent of an incoming freshman thought their kid would get significant playing time right away.  Fortunately my son did, but we knew going in that several of the guys in his freshman class wouldn't....and we knew which two for sure wouldn't handle it well.  They didn't (and neither did their parents) and both were gone after their freshman year.

The kid played for me in 16u when the boys were fifteen. He was one of five, including my son recruited by 17u teams the following year. They all went to the same team. These kids had been playing together since 13u. They played on rival teams in LL. They knew of each other going back to ten years old. I believe the kid was caught up in “me too.”

This kid started attending MLB scouting events after committing. I asked the dad why. He said he’s a pro prospect. My only comment was the only players who should be attending these camps are players who might get million dollar-plus offers. My son’s first year on the 17u team one kid got the big offer and signed. His second year I felt there was one player. It wasn’t this kid. Even the kid I felt had the potential didn’t bother. He knew he was going to college.

I still say it is a dual problem.  Which comes first chicken or the egg?

The coaches are afraid if the player does not start as a freshman they will not stay so why should I invest in a kid who probably won't be here next year.  The player who doesn't start as a freshman thinks he will get cut so why invest the extra time to still not get to play.  Both are hurting themselves and others.  I think it is rare the coach who invests in the guy who won't help him until 2/3 years down the road and the player who stays with the program even though he may not start until his junior or senior year.

Trey Lipscomb is one of the greatest examples of staying the course.  He sat behind two draftees at third base for UT and did not start until his senior year.  Then had a great season and got drafted.  He is the unicorn. (For those of you on the other thread who do not know what the phrase unicorn means it is a very unusual person who you don't see every day.)

@PitchingFan posted:

I still say it is a dual problem.  Which comes first chicken or the egg?

The coaches are afraid if the player does not start as a freshman they will not stay so why should I invest in a kid who probably won't be here next year.  The player who doesn't start as a freshman thinks he will get cut so why invest the extra time to still not get to play.  Both are hurting themselves and others.  I think it is rare the coach who invests in the guy who won't help him until 2/3 years down the road and the player who stays with the program even though he may not start until his junior or senior year.

Trey Lipscomb is one of the greatest examples of staying the course.  He sat behind two draftees at third base for UT and did not start until his senior year.  Then had a great season and got drafted.  He is the unicorn. (For those of you on the other thread who do not know what the phrase unicorn means it is a very unusual person who you don't see every day.)

Both kids (baseball and softball) observed everyone shows up fall of freshmen year with the talent to compete for playing time. Everyone was a high school star. No one has ever sat before college. But it doesn’t take long for those not getting on the field to lose their mental edge and have one foot out the door. They said if they notice while focused on their own business, it must be easy for the coaching staff to see it.