A Recruiting Story

@Master P posted:

How's John's arm doing since the second semester is about to start?

John started the spring as his team’s #1 guy on the mound. However I kept hearing that things were not quite right. When we faced John a couple of weeks ago (and beat him) he didn’t have a good outing. Last week I heard that he had a torn labrum and was done for the year. I suspect that there has been a partial tear for over 2 years - ever since he abandoned my training methods in favor of “velocity training” run by a local chiropractor that calls himself a pitching coach. So now John joins the ranks of HS/college players that have sabotaged themselves by listening to a fraud and chasing velo instead of trusting the process.

@adbono posted:

I suspect that there has been a partial tear for over 2 years - ever since he abandoned my training methods in favor of “velocity training” run by a local chiropractor that calls himself a pitching coach. So now John joins the ranks of HS/college players that have sabotaged themselves by listening to a fraud and chasing velo instead of trusting the process.

I get that there are people and companies out there that just push velo, even "guaranteeing" improvements in velocity. Those grifters aside, I don't think you can blame a HS/College/Pro player for trying to throw harder. Nothing is going to change with the current incentive structure.

What's your thoughts on what John should have done? Accepted that he should play at a lower level and hope he grows into his velocity? Is your issue with the velo programs that they are using "hacks" to increase velo rather than develop over time?

Shoulder injuries at the pro levels have gone down. Don't know at the college level, but think the trend is the same.

@nycdad posted:

I get that there are people and companies out there that just push velo, even "guaranteeing" improvements in velocity. Those grifters aside, I don't think you can blame a HS/College/Pro player for trying to throw harder. Nothing is going to change with the current incentive structure.

What's your thoughts on what John should have done? Accepted that he should play at a lower level and hope he grows into his velocity? Is your issue with the velo programs that they are using "hacks" to increase velo rather than develop over time?

Shoulder injuries at the pro levels have gone down. Don't know at the college level, but think the trend is the same.

I had John throwing 90+ as an 18 yr old senior in HS. So it wasn’t like he hadn’t been trained to throw hard. And his frame had not filled out so it was easy to project velocity gains in the future as his body matured and got stronger. Had John stayed the course there is no doubt in my mind that he could have pitched in the Big 12 after two years at the right junior college. But as a senior in HS he wasn’t yet ready for the Big 12 - and that’s what I told him. He didn’t listen. And yes, my issue with velocity programs is that many of them are run by hacks.

Adbono

now watching Red Sox and Orioles game. Several pitchers were “short” on the arm action like a catcher, no rhythm or loose arm.

have you watched  the old style with full windup? What is your opinion?

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Adbono

now watching Red Sox and Orioles game. Several pitchers were “short” on the arm action like a catcher, no rhythm or loose arm.

have you watched  the old style with full windup? What is your opinion?

Bob

You make a good point about loose arm and rhythm. IMO arm action should be as natural and as easy as possible. I believe that induces the least amount of stress on any part of the body. A loose arm action can be accomplished with relaxed muscles. Not only do relaxed muscles perform better, they are not as prone to injury. A smooth and repeatable arm action is optimal not only for longevity but for accuracy too. You always want to minimize the tension in the hand, arm, and throwing shoulder during the course of the delivery of the baseball. Relaxed muscles perform. And there are some things going on in the game right now that run counter to a pitcher staying relaxed. Max effort promotes tension. Slick baseballs require a tighter grip, which also introduces more tension. Maximum spin on every breaking pitch, maximum velocity on every fastball, etc. has the same effect. Change of pace can be just as effective as elite stuff. It’s also easier for most pitchers to learn how to change speeds than it is to develop elite stuff. One thing that could help reduce the high rate of arm injuries is to shift the focus to “changing speeds” instead of “chasing velocity”

@adbono posted:

You make a good point about loose arm and rhythm. IMO arm action should be as natural and as easy as possible. I believe that induces the least amount of stress on any part of the body. A loose arm action can be accomplished with relaxed muscles. Not only do relaxed muscles perform better, they are not as prone to injury. A smooth and repeatable arm action is optimal not only for longevity but for accuracy too. You always want to minimize the tension in the hand, arm, and throwing shoulder during the course of the delivery of the baseball. Relaxed muscles perform. And there are some things going on in the game right now that run counter to a pitcher staying relaxed. Max effort promotes tension. Slick baseballs require a tighter grip, which also introduces more tension. Maximum spin on every breaking pitch, maximum velocity on every fastball, etc. has the same effect. Change of pace can be just as effective as elite stuff. It’s also easier for most pitchers to learn how to change speeds than it is to develop elite stuff. One thing that could help reduce the high rate of arm injuries is to shift the focus to “changing speeds” instead of “chasing velocity”

I enjoyed reading your post.  However, it is very altruistic.   My outsider perspective having followed my son's recruitment, his travel ball teammates, and various kids around our state, there is one rule when it comes the D1 recruitment of pitchers, and that rule is... "the only thing that matters is velocity."   With my own eye's I watched a high school Jr. throwing 90-92 mph pitch to four straight batters without throwing a single pitch in the strike zone and within a week committed to an SEC baseball program.   I also watched a kid in the WWBA National Championship throw 5 innings of marvelous no hit, no walks baseball against one of the top 15 travel teams in the country and not a single D1 coach followed up because the max velocity he reached was 87 mph.   I have even heard D1 coaches talk about how they are looking for pitchers and not throwers, however their words don't match their actions.   High school kids are going to chase velocity because they know, and their parents know, that velocity gets the attention of D1 coaches and that is the only thing that gets their attention. 

@Ster posted:

With my own eye's I watched a high school Jr. throwing 90-92 mph pitch to four straight batters without throwing a single pitch in the strike zone and within a week committed to an SEC baseball program. 

Saw something like this too from HS travel ball.  Player didn't stick at his P5, and has not pitched well at the mid-major where he transferred.

@Ster posted:

I enjoyed reading your post.  However, it is very altruistic.   My outsider perspective having followed my son's recruitment, his travel ball teammates, and various kids around our state, there is one rule when it comes the D1 recruitment of pitchers, and that rule is... "the only thing that matters is velocity."   With my own eye's I watched a high school Jr. throwing 90-92 mph pitch to four straight batters without throwing a single pitch in the strike zone and within a week committed to an SEC baseball program.   I also watched a kid in the WWBA National Championship throw 5 innings of marvelous no hit, no walks baseball against one of the top 15 travel teams in the country and not a single D1 coach followed up because the max velocity he reached was 87 mph.   I have even heard D1 coaches talk about how they are looking for pitchers and not throwers, however their words don't match their actions.   High school kids are going to chase velocity because they know, and their parents know, that velocity gets the attention of D1 coaches and that is the only thing that gets their attention.

Call it altruistic if you like. Matters not to me. There are many coaches out there that fit your description. But not every one. All I know is that I’m using my sphere of influence to teach guys how to pitch and help advance their careers according to what they can do. It’s easy for guys outside the white lines to get caught up in narratives. But I have found that the favorite narratives tend to be the ones that validate their bias based on the experience of their own son. There has always been a bias towards velocity in baseball. I benefited from it as a player. But I wasn’t a good pitcher until halfway thru college because I spent my formative years focused on throwing hard and not learning how to pitch. So as a coach I train my players according to my own baseball experience - which taught me in hindsight to learn to pitch first and the velo will show up later. Our JuCo currently has 3 of the top 15 national strikeout leaders. Only one throws over 90. Our best guy (statistically) tops out at 88. He is 8-1 w/ a 2 ERA, a WHIP under 1, 65 K, & 11 BB in the toughest JuCo region in the country. He has a legit 3 pitch mix and will throw any pitch in any count. He didn’t show up on campus that way either. We changed his grip on the FB & the slider, and taught him a new pitch (split change). He now has multiple D1 offers. But he has proven that he can get college hitters out. HS kids that throw 84-88 haven’t done that. It’s unrealistic to think that D1 schools would recruit them unless they are projectable. But I’m offering up another path for HS guys that can pitch but don’t have top shelf velo. Go the JuCo route and play for 2 years instead of sitting the bench or redshirting. Get better at your craft and prove that you can get college hitters out. If you do that there will be opportunities at any level. As a parting shot I will add this - many people just don’t understand that most HS hitters aren’t very good. Only 6-7% of HS players advance to any level of college baseball. And half of those are pitchers. So in the eyes of college recruiters, if you have success in HS throwing 85 mph you haven’t proven anything. HS players/parents don’t see it that way and there is your disconnect.

@Consultant posted:

Adbono

now watching Red Sox and Orioles game. Several pitchers were “short” on the arm action like a catcher, no rhythm or loose arm.

have you watched  the old style with full windup? What is your opinion?

Bob

Bob,

I was watching a replay of the 4/9 Auburn and Alabama State yesterday and Todd Walker was saying that the more arm action a pitcher had the easier it was for him to hit. Son of former poster, Lucas Giolito short arms the ball.

I think this is crazy and agree wholeheartedly with Abono's response.

Calhoun;

Watch Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale and Sandy.

All "Motion" and no "pitch clock" needed.

Receive the ball from the catcher and "fire".

Bob

@314Calhoun posted:

Bob,

I was watching a replay of the 4/9 Auburn and Alabama State yesterday and Todd Walker was saying that the more arm action a pitcher had the easier it was for him to hit. Son of former poster, Lucas Giolito short arms the ball.

I think this is crazy and agree wholeheartedly with Abono's response.

Todd Walker does not communicate very well. As a baseball announcer he leaves a lot to be desired. What I think he meant is this - if a pitcher can keep his backside arm action in line with his shoulders (which prevents the hitter from being able to see the ball before it comes out of the pitcher’s hand) it makes it harder on the hitter. And if that’s what he meant he is right. A smaller arm circle in the back helps to accomplish this. But the smaller arm circle still needs to be loose & rhythmic. A lot of guys are being taught to pitch with a shorter arm (it helps control the run game) at the expense of free and easy movement. Big mistake IMO.

@Consultant posted:

Calhoun;

Watch Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale and Sandy.

All "Motion" and no "pitch clock" needed.

Receive the ball from the catcher and "fire".

Bob

Consultant;

You bring up a great point about the "pitch clock". I recently heard some attributing the TJ epidemic to the pitch clock during an mlb broadcast. It was somewhat refreshing that Verlander didn’t mention the clock in his assessment.

@314Calhoun posted:

Consultant;

You bring up a great point about the "pitch clock". I recently heard some attributing the TJ epidemic to the pitch clock during an mlb broadcast. It was somewhat refreshing that Verlander didn’t mention the clock in his assessment.

Can someone explain why some are blaming the pitch clock on TJ injuries.

@TPM posted:

Can someone explain why some are blaming the pitch clock on TJ injuries.

Because the MLBPA was against the 15/20 second pitch clock from the outset. And now that slimmed down 15/18 version has coincided with several high profile pitching injuries thus far in 2024 (Bieber, Strider, Perez), it is being blamed.

While no one can say for sure, consensus is there’s no correlation and the PA is just being opportunistic with their complaints.

You might consider reading the article I posted from The Atlantic. It explains a lot.

@SpeedDemon

Read the article earlier.

IMO velo is the common denominator.

It’s possible the time clock is playing a part in arm injuries. But I believe the biggest factor is arms have hit the limit on velocity of what a typical pitcher’s physiology can tolerate.

@RJM posted:

It’s possible the time clock is playing a part in arm injuries. But I believe the biggest factor is arms have hit the limit on velocity of what a typical pitcher’s physiology can tolerate.

My take on all of this is that it's cumulative, but ultimately the largest culprit is a systemic over-emphasis on velo and spin rate from a young age. No matter the body type, hand size, or whatever genetic variable that may prevent one from throwing hard and spinny from a young age.  Everyone (Coaches, trainers, scouts) just want to see high velo and spin rate, younger and younger.  It's absurd, but it's the reality of the ecosystem currently in place.  It's no longer about developing "pitching" it's just about who can throw the hardest starting at age 14 on.

For instance, it used to be that if you had a naturally low spin rate that meant a "heavy" ball, so you used your natural ball and developed a sinker and generally tried to live low in the zone.  That's a perfectly fine approach for 99% of pitchers who won't be aiming for MLB (And honestly should still be ok even at the pro level), but those kind of pitchers aren't being developed.  Instead, throw everything you can at strength training, velo training, grip stregth, etc etc.  And voila...ucl's break down. 

@Wechson posted:

My take on all of this is that it's cumulative, but ultimately the largest culprit is a systemic over-emphasis on velo and spin rate from a young age. No matter the body type, hand size, or whatever genetic variable that may prevent one from throwing hard and spinny from a young age.  Everyone (Coaches, trainers, scouts) just want to see high velo and spin rate, younger and younger.  It's absurd, but it's the reality of the ecosystem currently in place.  It's no longer about developing "pitching" it's just about who can throw the hardest starting at age 14 on.

For instance, it used to be that if you had a naturally low spin rate that meant a "heavy" ball, so you used your natural ball and developed a sinker and generally tried to live low in the zone.  That's a perfectly fine approach for 99% of pitchers who won't be aiming for MLB (And honestly should still be ok even at the pro level), but those kind of pitchers aren't being developed.  Instead, throw everything you can at strength training, velo training, grip stregth, etc etc.  And voila...ucl's break down.

I’m not going to do all the math on this again. I once calculated a typical pitcher entering high school has more mileage on his arm than I did entering college.

If a kid is a good pitcher he’s pitching a lot of innings every year on his age group travel team. I played LL. I didn’t get many innings until I was twelve. Then I played Babe Ruth. 13yos don’t get 15yos out. I didn’t pitch. I pitched at fourteen and fifteen. Same situation applied for the first year of Legion versus the next two. So, I didn’t pitch much until twelve, took a year off, pitched two years, took a year off and pitched two years versus a kid racking up innings every year in travel.

In school ball I didn’t pitch until 9th grade. Didn’t pitch much soph year and started junior and senior year.

I came up with a saying about todays kids a since passed away poster/travel coach liked so much he placed it in his byline … Kids today don’t throw enough and pitch too much.

As a kid I was always throwing something even if it was rocks at cups on a fence. Throwing rocks at glasses was more fun to watch them shatter. 😁

@RJM posted:

As a kid I was always throwing something even if it was rocks at cups on a fense. Throwing rocks at glasses was more fun to watch them shatter. 😁

My son used to help me park cars with our Rotary Club for a local event that took place in a large empty field. He broke a number of the sticks the older guys used to direct traffic, using them as bats to hit the rocks he threw up in the air. He was never good enough to actually hurt a car, which is probably why he's a pitcher today. He's 24 and they still remind him about that.

@TPM posted:

@SpeedDemon

Read the article earlier.

IMO velo is the common denominator.

I sat in a grand rounds lecture that was given by a team of UAB Sports Orthopedist about two months ago.  James Andrews along with several other sports med researchers were there,  and their conclusions were that Velocity equals elbow issues.    Repetition equals shoulder issues.   Spin rates and breaking balls probably also contribute to elbow injuries, but that correlation is less predictable (mainly because you can't definitively verify when kids are starting to use breaking pitches and so far Spin rate numbers are routinely being recorded like velocity).

   Their data showed that there is without a doubt a significant direct correlation with fastball velocity and UCL injury and those associations were more significant as you move to younger age ranges.   In other words, the sooner a kid is hitting 90 mph, the greater likelihood of UCL damage.   A couple of things that these researchers pointed out was that velocity over 80 MPH is where UCL strain starts to appears.  So, you can imagine what a young person at age 16 throwing 90 mph is doing, and you compound that with the fact that kids are constantly straining the arm with a goal of getting more velocity for 6 months or more out of the year, and you wonder why so many D1 schools are seeing so many arm injuries.   Another thing that Andrews pointed out in the conference was that in the early 2000's they were doing TJ surgery on mostly MLB guys, with only single digit high school pitchers having TJ surgery.   He said now the overwhelming number of surgeries for UCL injuries that his group are performing are on high school pitchers.   He said, "It's all about the drive for more velocity." 

Elbow (UCL) damage happens with the constant drive for higher velocity and younger and younger ages.   If you have a kid that is in the 10th grade throwing 90 plus then there is a high probability that some UCL damage has occurred.   Shoulder injuries such as SLAP tears of the labrum and rotator cuff happen with overuse and excess repetition.   My son had an MRI of his arm last fall.  It revealed a SLAP tear, but the UCL was in perfect condition.   His velocity was just reaching 90 MPH in May of last year.  (let it be known that he pitched 97 innings for his high school team that spring.  Much of that was due to the fact that they went all the way to the state championship series).   He had shoulder surgery in the fall when he started noticing pain when long tossing to get ready for the WWBA Jupiter tournament.   

@Ster posted:

  (let it be known that he pitched 97 innings for his high school team that spring.  Much of that was due to the fact that they went all the way to the state championship series).   He had shoulder surgery in the fall when he started noticing pain when long tossing to get ready for the WWBA Jupiter tournament.   

This blows my mind, throwing that many innings in a high school season.  My son will throw half that this year as his teams #1.

@Master P posted:

This blows my mind, throwing that many innings in a high school season.  My son will throw half that this year as his teams #1.

Depends on the hs coaches philosophy.  At our hs, the 2-3 main pitchers pitched complete games unless the wheels fell off.  We had a kid throwing 95 who was throwing 110 pitches in early march.  The scouts were all talking about how crazy it was, and it did not matter if we were winning by a margin or not.  He ended up with a SLAP tear in early May and couldn't pitch for playoffs.  Still got drafted in the second round but wasn't able to really come back from injury even 4 years later.  We usually didn't make it very deep into playoffs because the schedule is a grind and we had to use relievers, none of which had any/much experience until they were thrown into a do or die playoff game.  Watched it happen year after year.

@baseballhs posted:

Depends on the hs coaches philosophy.  At our hs, the 2-3 main pitchers pitched complete games unless the wheels fell off.  We had a kid throwing 95 who was throwing 110 pitches in early march.  The scouts were all talking about how crazy it was, and it did not matter if we were winning by a margin or not.  He ended up with a SLAP tear in early May and couldn't pitch for playoffs.  Still got drafted in the second round but wasn't able to really come back from injury even 4 years later.  We usually didn't make it very deep into playoffs because the schedule is a grind and we had to use relievers, none of which had any/much experience until they were thrown into a do or die playoff game.  Watched it happen year after year.

You are correct.   Most of the high schools in my area all have this same philosophy.  You identify three top end pitchers and pitch the doors off of them.   This HS program has always operated that way.  Yes, they win, 16 State Championships in the last 30 years.  About 7 D1 pitchers in that time frame, three of which played in the MLB.   This is just how a lot of these programs work.  Then you tack on summer travel ball and even the fall in order get noticed by College coaches and the wear and tear on the arm starts to stack up. 

In my son's case, he pitched 97 innings for his hs last spring.  Even though his pitch count was manageable (he averaged 11.7 pitches and inning) that still a lot of time on the mound, a lot of time warming up in the pregame, etc...  All of that for his high school team, plus he had to play summer and fall baseball at all of the major WWBA programs in order to get some attention from college coaches and for what?   He had a SLAP tear that landed him getting surgery in in October.  He has missed his entire Sr. season of baseball, and although he has signed a D1 scholarship (I was shocked they still gave him the scholarship after the injury) there is certainly no guarantee he will even come close to return to pitching form.   He has been very faithful with his rehab, and everything has gone about as well as possible with his throwing routine for recovery, but who knows if he will every return to form. 

To give you a little piece of mind, The team that drafted him opted to send him to the Dominican and get PRP injections several times rather than surgery. He now says he should’ve just had the surgery.

Our team was similar that year and we did make it further than ever. 2 day one draft picks and 5-6 P5 players.

@baseballhs posted:

To give you a little piece of mind, The team that drafted him opted to send him to the Dominican and get PRP injections several times rather than surgery. He now says he should’ve just had the surgery.

Our team was similar that year and we did make it further than ever. 2 day one draft picks and 5-6 P5 players.

Yes, my son's Dr's both said that rehab alone would probably get him back to function, but we opted to go ahead with the surgery.   That was in October and so far his rehab has had no setbacks.   We are hoping for a full recovery but know that these things can be unpredictable.   

@adbono posted:

I had John throwing 90+ as an 18 yr old senior in HS. So it wasn’t like he hadn’t been trained to throw hard. And his frame had not filled out so it was easy to project velocity gains in the future as his body matured and got stronger. Had John stayed the course there is no doubt in my mind that he could have pitched in the Big 12 after two years at the right junior college. But as a senior in HS he wasn’t yet ready for the Big 12 - and that’s what I told him. He didn’t listen. And yes, my issue with velocity programs is that many of them are run by hacks.

And just to put a bow on this thread…. I was told today that John is done playing baseball - and done with school too. What a waste of potential. Very sad.

@adbono posted:

And just to put a bow on this thread…. I was told today that John is done playing baseball - and done with school too. What a waste of potential. Very sad.

That sucks, but it sounds like you did your best, and way above and beyond...

Adbono;

Did you see "fear of failure" or "fear of success" in the young pitcher?

Bob

@adbono posted:

And just to put a bow on this thread…. I was told today that John is done playing baseball - and done with school too. What a waste of potential. Very sad.

I am hearing more and more stories of kids hanging it up instead of grinding it through. My son has two former teammates, that I believe were on schools in your conference, that decided to hang it up. One is a middle infielder that was an all state player his junior year and honorable mention all state senior year. Definitely a kid that could play at a four year school if he wanted to. He gave himself one year in juco to get an offer to a four year school. He ended up getting hurt halfway through the season. Not a serious injury, but one that takes some time to fully heal. Instead of coming back for a healthy sophomore year, he decided to just hang it up and get on with his life. I do think that once he is away from the game for a year, he may come back to it. I am hoping to see that because he is a good kid and can play.

@ARCEKU21 posted:

I am hearing more and more stories of kids hanging it up instead of grinding it through.

This is so true. I know a kid that was cut from his P4 school.  He knew of the grind the Juco route was and decided he didn't love baseball that much.  Now he's just a NARP, going to school.

I saw this when I played. My som observed the same thing. You play your entire life as the IT kid having everything handed to you. You get to college and play musical positions. There are 18-20 chairs for 35+ very talented players.

About 6-8 are still the studs who will have a position handed to them. But this time they have to keep it. They’ve never experienced failure before. Everyone has to compete. If players can’t keep both feet mentally inside the door it won’t take long before both feet are mentally headed for the exit.

I'm so sad to hear that he is also done with school. This was hard to follow and I pray this young man finds his path.

@Consultant posted:

Adbono;

Did you see "fear of failure" or "fear of success" in the young pitcher?

Bob

That’s an interesting question and I’m not sure about the answer. There is no doubt that his success during his senior year of HS went to his head. A lot of other people played a part in that as well. His parents, his HS HC, a scouting service, and an online guru all helped inflate John’s ego. That’s when the bad decisions started - and it turned into one bad decision after another. The ship never got righted once it went off course. A JuCo teammate of his told me that John isolated himself from the rest of the team because he thought he was better than everyone else. When it became obvious that surgery would be required (which I suspected at least a year ago) he had lost his drive and didn’t have the motivation to go thru the long and difficult process of rehab. All in all it’s a very sad story. If there is a moral in there somewhere I guess it would be this : there is a time to bet on yourself and there is a time to play it safe and you better know when those times are.