A Recruiting Story

@PitchingFan posted:

I still say it is a dual problem.  Which comes first chicken or the egg?

The coaches are afraid if the player does not start as a freshman they will not stay so why should I invest in a kid who probably won't be here next year.  The player who doesn't start as a freshman thinks he will get cut so why invest the extra time to still not get to play.  Both are hurting themselves and others.  I think it is rare the coach who invests in the guy who won't help him until 2/3 years down the road and the player who stays with the program even though he may not start until his junior or senior year.

Trey Lipscomb is one of the greatest examples of staying the course.  He sat behind two draftees at third base for UT and did not start until his senior year.  Then had a great season and got drafted.  He is the unicorn. (For those of you on the other thread who do not know what the phrase unicorn means it is a very unusual person who you don't see every day.)

I agree with some points.

Most freshman are not ready to play on a regular basis, it all depends on how well the coach manages his roster. What gets me is when they stick in a freshman for a game or two and burns their eligibility.

Hate that!

Thumbs up to the coaches who use non conference mid week games to give their RS freshman and true freshman gametime on the mound and at the plate.

@Consultant posted:

NYC DAD

Pitchers are special and it is the informative prospective player and parent who will ask the "proper" questions when interviewed.

Of course, the school publishes the pitcher's innings, record, # of strikes, balls, ground outs, fly balls. It is all available. Research and Analyze.

Bob

That's all well and good.....But you can ask all the questions you want and it still not turn out great. Now combine that with coming on campus during Covid and the circumstances surrounding it and it becomes more complicated.

And I'm talking about the the lower levels of D1, sometimes (a lot of times) pitch counts don't even make it into the box score.

My hypothesis is pitchers at low level D1's are much more likely to be abused than at the upper programs. I think this is a combination of coaching (better coaching at the higher levels) and at the lower D1 levels coaches want to get wins given the opportunity at all costs. Wins can be far and few between and they are looking to climb the ladder to better positions.

I just think families going through the recruiting process need to understand this if it comes down to a low level D1 vs. a high level D3.

@nycdad

What exactly determines a lower level D1 baseball program? I thought that it's determined by football.

I think what players and parents need to determine between D1, D2, D3 is costs and education.

Technically my understanding is that D3 is the lowest level in college sports but these days many D2, D3 have excellent programs.

Pitcher abuse is not as rampant as it was when son was in college.

Thank goodness.

I am just wondering what determines a lower level D1 that might abuse its pitchers.

@nycdad posted:

.....................

My hypothesis is pitchers at low level D1's are much more likely to be abused than at the upper programs. I think this is a combination of coaching (better coaching at the higher levels) and at the lower D1 levels coaches want to get wins given the opportunity at all costs. Wins can be far and few between and they are looking to climb the ladder to better positions.

I need a lot more convincing on your hypothesis.

I think the mid to lower level D1s don't have the resources, experience and expertise that many of the top D1 programs possess but that doesn't necesssarily mean they have a win at all costs mentality.  Some low to mid-D1 programs dilute their hands-on coaching by wearing many hats.  For example, a head coach who doubles as a pitching coach.  I just can't get on board with that.   As @Consultant mentions, pitchers are special but they aren't china dolls either.  Head Coaches don't have the bandwidth to work with every pitcher every day and do all the other things (fund raising, recruiting, etc..) they should be doing for their program.

Thankfully, my son's mid/low D1 program had an excellent pitching coach, strength & conditioning coach, nutritionist and resources available to help them succeed.   In my 4 years of following my son's D1 program and all the programs in his conference, I never once saw or thought a pitcher was over used.  My son came up the way most freshmen pitchers do.  He had a great freshman Fall.  He got a non-conference appearance (against #1 ranked team) early in the Spring, and did very well.  This got him noticed, and he was starting when conference play began.   He never pitched or travelled for  mid-week games, and he knew he was getting to be on the bump on the weekend.  There was no deviation from that pitching routine in any way. 

The potential for abuse in college baseball is there, but I think it is more likely to be someone in the D1 P5 bullpen. My former neighbor was a D1 P5 pitcher at a high profile university.   He bounced between the bullpen (setup, closer, long relief) as well as a starter during his sophomore & junior years.  Senior year he was exclusively a starting pitching.   There were a few pitchers on that team that I thought were overused, but I kept that to myself.  If you take the Fall season + regular season + conference championship + regionals + super regionals + CWS that has the potential for a lot of pitches thrown.  He did all of that.   I believe he also played summer college baseball too.  From my perspective, this D1 P5 situation is more likely to be an issue than a low to mid-D1 program situation.

As always, JMO and experience.

@TPM posted:

@nycdad

I am just wondering what determines a lower level D1 that might abuse its pitchers.

I would think most programs below the mid-major rankings. "You know it when you see it" comes to mind. For example, both my kids' programs I tihnk most would not consider mid majors.

@fenwaysouth posted:

The potential for abuse in college baseball is there, but I think it is more likely to be someone in the D1 P5 bullpen.

I was watching a game over the weekend and a reliever came in to close on Sunday.  The commentators mentioned that the kid had thrown 4 innings on Friday.  Then one said, "You'd never see that in pro ball, but this is college."

@fenwaysouth posted:

I need a lot more convincing on your hypothesis.

I think the mid to lower level D1s don't have the resources, experience and expertise that many of the top D1 programs possess but that doesn't necesssarily mean they have a win at all costs mentality.  Some low to mid-D1 programs dilute their hands-on coaching by wearing many hats.  For example, a head coach who doubles as a pitching coach.  I just can't get on board with that.   As @Consultant mentions, pitchers are special but they aren't china dolls either.  Head Coaches don't have the bandwidth to work with every pitcher every day and do all the other things (fund raising, recruiting, etc..) they should be doing for their program.

Thankfully, my son's mid/low D1 program had an excellent pitching coach, strength & conditioning coach, nutritionist and resources available to help them succeed.   In my 4 years of following my son's D1 program and all the programs in his conference, I never once saw or thought a pitcher was over used.  My son came up the way most freshmen pitchers do.  He had a great freshman Fall.  He got a non-conference appearance (against #1 ranked team) early in the Spring, and did very well.  This got him noticed, and he was starting when conference play began.   He never pitched or travelled for  mid-week games, and he knew he was getting to be on the bump on the weekend.  There was no deviation from that pitching routine in any way.

The potential for abuse in college baseball is there, but I think it is more likely to be someone in the D1 P5 bullpen. My former neighbor was a D1 P5 pitcher at a high profile university.   He bounced between the bullpen (setup, closer, long relief) as well as a starter during his sophomore & junior years.  Senior year he was exclusively a starting pitching.   There were a few pitchers on that team that I thought were overused, but I kept that to myself.  If you take the Fall season + regular season + conference championship + regionals + super regionals + CWS that has the potential for a lot of pitches thrown.  He did all of that.   I believe he also played summer college baseball too.  From my perspective, this D1 P5 situation is more likely to be an issue than a low to mid-D1 program situation.

As always, JMO and experience.

"I think the mid to lower level D1s don't have the resources, experience and expertise that many of the top D1 programs possess but that doesn't necesssarily mean they have a win at all costs mentality.  Some low to mid-D1 programs dilute their hands-on coaching by wearing many hats.  For example, a head coach who doubles as a pitching coach.  I just can't get on board with that.   As @Consultant mentions, pitchers are special but they aren't china dolls either.  Head Coaches don't have the bandwidth to work with every pitcher every day and do all the other things (fund raising, recruiting, etc..) they should be doing for their program."

Yes, less resources and coaches are busier and a known issue. I think we can all agree that contributes to less development, and potentially higher injury risk for pitchers. We could also talk about nutrition, accommodations, etc. Those things aren't the coaches fault of course, but factor into the overall health.

"The potential for abuse in college baseball is there, but I think it is more likely to be someone in the D1 P5 bullpen. My former neighbor was a D1 P5 pitcher at a high profile university.   He bounced between the bullpen (setup, closer, long relief) as well as a starter during his sophomore & junior years.  Senior year he was exclusively a starting pitching.   There were a few pitchers on that team that I thought were overused, but I kept that to myself.  If you take the Fall season + regular season + conference championship + regionals + super regionals + CWS that has the potential for a lot of pitches thrown.  He did all of that.   I believe he also played summer college baseball too.  From my perspective, this D1 P5 situation is more likely to be an issue than a low to mid-D1 program situation."

I think P5 schools are under a brighter light and it's easier to scrutinize with everything being on social media. There are always exceptions of course.

A few years ago I read a story about Wayne Graham, the former Rice coach. At one point he had eight straight years of a pitcher of his going in the first round. But, they all had TJ by their second pro season. Graham rode them like mules to success during their college careers.

  I started this thread because it seemed like a good example of the things that happen during a recruiting process. And it’s a real life story that we are now following in real time at the request of @Shoveit4Ks.  The decisions made by the player (John), his parents, and the Big12 school he is attending are not at all uncommon. John’s situation is a pretty typical experience for a freshman P at a top 30 P5 program. I will continue to provide updates for those of you that are following the content of this thread because it may help you better navigate your own situation. Here is the first one:

  Over the past week John’s team opened with a 4 game series at home against a very respectable opponent. They won all 4 games and in the process they used 15 pitchers, including 2 of the 5 freshmen Ps. John was not among the 15 pitchers used. And now his dad has reached out to my pitching coaching  partner for support. Apparently John is experiencing a lack of confidence and is wanting to see a sports psychologist. He is also complaining of a sore shoulder. John’s parents are happy because they got to see John on the field in their alma mater’s uniform and of course that was all documented on Twitter.

  Anyone care to count the red flags in this update? I have at least 5.

@adbono posted:

  Over the past week John’s team opened with a 4 game series at home against a very respectable opponent. They won all 4 games and in the process they used 15 pitchers, including 2 of the 5 freshmen Ps. John was not among the 15 pitchers used. And now his dad has reached out to my pitching coaching  partner for support. Apparently John is experiencing a lack of confidence and is wanting to see a sports psychologist. He is also complaining of a sore shoulder. John’s parents are happy because they got to see John on the field in their alma mater’s uniform and of course that was all documented on Twitter.

  Anyone care to count the red flags in this update? I have at least 5.

Ouch!  This story isn't going to end well I'm afraid.

The whole second paragraph has 5 red flags.  I hope the sports psychologist is able to help with confidence and get control of his life with or without baseball.

JMO.

@Buckeye 2015 posted:

Ouch!  This story isn't going to end well I'm afraid.

It’s early and there is plenty of time for things to change. But it doesn’t bode well so far.

@adbono posted:

It’s early and there is plenty of time for things to change. But it doesn’t bode well so far.

Hope it works out at his current school.

Safe money says it ends with him either transferring to another P5 and sitting there as well or going to a juco for a year/two with him ending up at a competitive mid major program where he will get 20+ innings.

Keep this thread rolling.  Can we get offshoots of this thread instead of multiple conversations embedded?  I just want to know what happened to John!  Maybe a “Dear John: …” separate thread?  🤣

Did all the twitter posts from John's parents make things worse for John?

@2022NYC posted:

Did all the twitter posts from John's parents make things worse for John?

I don’t think so.

Here is another update for those that are interested. John’s team just completed their second 4 game homestand with another sweep and now sit at 8-0 on the young season. They have now used 17 of the 18 pitchers listed on the roster, including 4 of the 5 freshmen. About half the pitchers have had more than one appearance. The one pitcher that is yet to get into a game? You guessed it. John. All indications are that John was literally the last player to make the roster and that is never a good position to be in. No matter where you are.

Adbono;

maybe John could offer to throw BP to the offense, "game conditions"

Bob

John got in the mid-week game and had success!

@314Calhoun posted:

John got in the mid-week game and had success!

That’s correct. He threw 5 pitches. The last of which resulted in a game ending double play. Let’s see what happens next.

I don't know John, but I am rooting for him

I think it is pretty impressive that a team can throw all 18 of their pitchers and have an 8-0 record.  LFG John!

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

I think it is pretty impressive that a team can throw all 18 of their pitchers and have an 8-0 record.  LFG John!

Well if we are being accurate the number of pitchers used is up to 20. A couple are 2 way guys. And they are now 8-1. But those are just details. The point of this thread is the challenge facing freshmen trying to get on the field at top 30 D1 programs.

@adbono posted:

Well if we are being accurate the number of pitchers used is up to 20. A couple are 2 way guys. And they are now 8-1. But those are just details. The point of this thread is the challenge facing freshmen trying to get on the field at top 30 D1 programs.

That can be an emotional and mental challenge.  Just about every D1 player that arrives on a college campus have tasted nothing but success their entire career.   I can see their being some mental scar tissue forming when they find themselves in John's position of not getting any playing time.   However, there is nothing that changes a coaches mind about a player as fast as seeing success in a game situation.   If John can get on the field and make the most of his outings, then the coach will put him back out there again.

@Ster posted:

That can be an emotional and mental challenge.  Just about every D1 player that arrives on a college campus have tasted nothing but success their entire career.   I can see their being some mental scar tissue forming when they find themselves in John's position of not getting any playing time.   However, there is nothing that changes a coaches mind about a player as fast as seeing success in a game situation.   If John can get on the field and make the most of his outings, then the coach will put him back out there again.

If you have read this entire thread you know it’s my belief that John and his parents made a bad decision. He is not ready today for the demands of a ranked D1 program. I believe that he will be ready in a couple of years, but not today. John was a late bloomer that really only experienced great success in his senior year of HS - and that was partly because he transferred to a school that was one classification down. All signs are that John is in for a very difficult freshman year that will test his confidence and his dedication to his craft. I also have concerns about what that will do to his mental state of mind. But that’s really the point of this thread - the unintended consequences of decisions. I could see this coming a mile away and warned John and his father about this particular school. But they didn’t listen to me. And this  was after I spent over 3 years developing John as his private pitching instructor - for no money btw. Like you, I hope John can overcome his circumstances. Time will tell.

@Ster posted:

That can be an emotional and mental challenge.  Just about every D1 player that arrives on a college campus have tasted nothing but success their entire career.   I can see their being some mental scar tissue forming when they find themselves in John's position of not getting any playing time.   However, there is nothing that changes a coaches mind about a player as fast as seeing success in a game situation.   If John can get on the field and make the most of his outings, then the coach will put him back out there again.

IMO and in coaches defense, managing the roster is not an easy task.  Some players have the stuff but not ready for the actual game.

What bothers me, and I know that I am repeating myself, some coaches just throw guys out there and burn the players year and it drives me crazy.

Make sure during recruiting that you understand the coaches philosophy.

If as a player you don't care, that's on you.

JMO

@adbono posted:

If you have read this entire thread you know it’s my belief that John and his parents made a bad decision. He is not ready today for the demands of a ranked D1 program. I believe that he will be ready in a couple of years, but not today. John was a late bloomer that really only experienced great success in his senior year of HS - and that was partly because he transferred to a school that was one classification down. All signs are that John is in for a very difficult freshman year that will test his confidence and his dedication to his craft. I also have concerns about what that will do to his mental state of mind. But that’s really the point of this thread - the unintended consequences of decisions. I could see this coming a mile away and warned John and his father about this particular school. But they didn’t listen to me. And this  was after I spent over 3 years developing John as his private pitching instructor - for no money btw. Like you, I hope John can overcome his circumstances. Time will tell.

That is very unfortunate, that the family failed to listen to quality advice.   I know that the directors of my son's travel team have given similar advice to some of my son's teammates, but the allure of the "big name" is very attractive to players (AND FAMILY).   Last summer, the directors of my son's travel ball team held a meeting with all of the families.   The purpose of the meeting was to share with them that college baseball has changed dramatically over the past couple of years.   Their presentation showed that P5 programs are dropping players that they recruit a much higher incident than they have in years past.  They showed examples of one Power 5 school that dropped four high school seniors in their senior season.  These players had been committed to this school since they were 9th and 10th graders and were informed their senior year that they weren't going to able to attend that school.  They also presented data about the alarming number of Freshmen that were no longer on school rosters by the time they were sophomores.  They claimed that fewer and fewer college programs are willing to be patient and help develop young players, and the instance gratification that comes from transfer portal is leading to many young players being released without fully getting a chance to grow and develop within their program.   

The purpose of this meeting was to essentially tell families to be cautious and understand that recruiting and program commitments to players aren't as sound as they were prior to transfer portal.   The ability for college programs to go into the transfer portal and get older/experienced players has led to a lot of difficult circumstances for a lot of younger players.   

@Ster posted:

That is very unfortunate, that the family failed to listen to quality advice.   I know that the directors of my son's travel team have given similar advice to some of my son's teammates, but the allure of the "big name" is very attractive to players (AND FAMILY).   Last summer, the directors of my son's travel ball team held a meeting with all of the families.   The purpose of the meeting was to share with them that college baseball has changed dramatically over the past couple of years.   Their presentation showed that P5 programs are dropping players that they recruit a much higher incident than they have in years past.  They showed examples of one Power 5 school that dropped four high school seniors in their senior season.  These players had been committed to this school since they were 9th and 10th graders and were informed their senior year that they weren't going to able to attend that school.  They also presented data about the alarming number of Freshmen that were no longer on school rosters by the time they were sophomores.  They claimed that fewer and fewer college programs are willing to be patient and help develop young players, and the instance gratification that comes from transfer portal is leading to many young players being released without fully getting a chance to grow and develop within their program.   

The purpose of this meeting was to essentially tell families to be cautious and understand that recruiting and program commitments to players aren't as sound as they were prior to transfer portal.   The ability for college programs to go into the transfer portal and get older/experienced players has led to a lot of difficult circumstances for a lot of younger players.   

Kudos to your travel ball org for putting on that presentation. Everything you stated is exactly what is going on. Some people, for whatever reason, just refuse to believe it.

Here is the latest update for those that are  following along:

John’s team sits at 14-3 on the season and is currently ranked. So far John has just made one appearance and thrown 5 total pitches. Which means he has used up his first year of eligibility. He doesn’t understand why he isn’t getting more opportunities and his confidence is taking a beating. It’s very questionable (in my mind) if he is mature enough to endure a freshman year like this w/o it having a lasting impact on his mental well being. And that’s something that most players/parents don’t think about until it’s happening to them. John’s current situation was predictable - and therefore could have been avoided. This particular school has a well known history of burying freshman pitchers. But John and his parents were caught up in grabbing the biggest, shiniest brass ring they could reach and didn’t consider the downside if things didn’t go well. Now the team is heading into conference play and future opportunities for John (and others) will be limited to their remaining mid-week games. Things could change but I can read the writing on the wall.

It stinks, but there's only one way out that doesn't involve transferring.  And that's just do everything you can to show out in practice, and especially pens.  Hope the Coach is watching, and treat the pens like you would a a Game 7 save situation.  Go as hard as possible.  No one tells these young guys this, but he's fighting for a spot. And he probably didn't realize that treating practice like a competitive battle was the assignment.   Tough lesson, because he's indeed behind the 8ball now.  But if he gets in midweek, he has to show out.  He has to surprise the Coach and give him a reason to consider him.  And if he can't manage to do that just use this as fodder for summer/fall improvement for next year.   And, frankly, if he's not built to withstand this mental speed bump, then he may not be ready for the job he aspires to.  Not meant to be a criticism, but a rally cry for him to just keep pushing himself beyond the place he thought he needed to be.

Adbono;
Where does the young man plan to pitch this Summer? His Summer League is
now his 1st Season in College. His College season is Spring Training.
Bob

On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 2:53 PM HS Baseball Web <alerts@crowdstack.com>
wrote:

@Consultant posted:

Adbono;
Where does the young man plan to pitch this Summer? His Summer League is
now his 1st Season in College. His College season is Spring Training.
Bob

On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 2:53 PM HS Baseball Web <alerts@crowdstack.com>
wrote:

I just learned yesterday that someone on John’s college coaching staff has made arrangements for him to play in the California Collegiate Summer League. Not sure what team.

Adbono;

Maybe he will play for the Healdsburg "Prunepackers" in a 100 year old ballpark.

Bob

@adbono

It's been almost 3 weeks since you last posted.

Now everyone is into conference play.

What's up with John?

John has not seen the game mound since the one and only outing where he threw a total of 5 pitches. He is frustrated and his confidence is taking a beating. He has met with the HC to discuss his situation - so I have heard. It has also gotten back to me that John doesn’t factor into the future plans at his current school. I don’t know for sure if that’s true but his experience so far this year would suggest that it is. All told John’s freshman year (so far) has been a miserable experience and he has burned a year of eligibility.

@adbono posted:

John has not seen the game mound since the one and only outing where he threw a total of 5 pitches. He is frustrated and his confidence is taking a beating. He has met with the HC to discuss his situation - so I have heard. It has also gotten back to me that John doesn’t factor into the future plans at his current school. I don’t know for sure if that’s true but his experience so far this year would suggest that it is. All told John’s freshman year (so far) has been a miserable experience and he has burned a year of eligibility.

Well, this underscores the importance of selecting a school based upon opportunity and less upon the name and reputation of the program.   The availability of the transfer portal to college baseball coaches has dramatically changed things.   

First, and most obvious, is that it allows coaches to get talent with experience from the transfer portal.  This is obvious.   However the less obvious advantage of the transfer portal to a college baseball coach is that it makes it significantly easier to tell a kid to, "take a hike".    Knowing that a college freshman that you have recruited can, "just get in the transfer portal and find another school, you'll be fine" takes a little bit of the human element out of the decision to cut a scholarship player.   

As a business owner, I have only once had to sit down with an employee and tell them that they are fired, and I agonized over that uncomfortable decision for weeks.   I would like to think that this is true of college coaches (maybe I'm naïve).  But with there being a transfer portal its an easy escape for a coach to tell a freshman that they don't factor in the future of the program and they need to put their name in the transfer portal.   

Stories like John will be more and more common in years to come, I'm afraid. 

I keep reading my 2024 the updates on this thread.  This morning he said, "Wow, I feel sorry for John but I can easily see how that could happen to him."

caveat emptor

Some people listen, some people won't.  Although our circumstances were different than "John's" @adbono reached out to us and offered his advice.  It was free and it was not requested.  But it was a valuable tool that confirmed what we believed our situation to be.

If you would have told us after son's sophomore summer that this is where we'd be, I'd have looked at you crazily, but Covid and and ACL changed the shopping list.  You learn to adapt or you end up like the dinosaurs.  We adapted and son is having a great season at a JUCO starting in CF (366 BA and 526 OBP) and STARTING AND PLAYING almost EVERY GAME.

It's funny, I've had 2 sons go through the whole process (older boy pitched 4 years D1), so I've seen plenty of baseball (high level and not), and more than not I could tell you by watching a kid that was the same age as my boys, whether he had "it" or didn't, and if he would be successful at the level where he was going.  It's interesting that ALOT of the so called "studs" that went D1 are actually sitting ALOT this year............and I'm sure they'll be in the portal soon.  I've told my boy to be on the lookout for any friends that want an opportunity to play, and recruit them to his school next year.

@russinfortworth

Nice story. Thank you. If you read my post on another topic, we have a friend whose son needs to go to a Juco. He doesn't want to hear about it right now. Oh well.

I realize that some folks will blame John's coach and some will blame John's folks. His travel coach, if he had one, might be at fault as well. Usually when teams do well, they will use a player like John. When they are not doing well, they won't. There are a lot of P5 programs that have freshman playing, many gave up the draft to go to play in college. They are kicking it!

However D1 baseball is not HS, and it's not travel ball. There is a learning curve and if no one is working with your player at their program, get them out of THERE!

I feel badly for John that the coach burned a red shirt year.

That's despicable.