Originally Posted by Dadofa17:
Originally Posted by shane52:

When my son was 9 we met a MLB old-time scout for the Dodgers. He asked my son what positions he played. Son replied, pitcher, 1st and catcher. The Scout replied they always need catchers in the Majors. Hearing that statement I always encouraged catching. The last time my son caught a game was 14U LL All Stars. He's now a 2015 17 year old RHP signed to a D1 program.  And he is still learning the art of pitching. After going through the recruiting process, one thing I found out was the term " the money is up the middle" as far as scholarships. LHP, C, RHP, SS, CF. There will always be catchers that can throw hard, but their pop time and power at the plate will be better than their control as a pitcher. And a pitcher that can catch but will never have a 1.8 pop time . My  $.02

 

my son is heading into a similar situation:  He is a 2017 who has always been a catcher Who occationaly pitched.  He has also been the number 4 hitter.  But at the moment, his pop time is around 1.9 and he sits at 86 as a RHP.   It will be interesting to see where he plays this HS season (and beyond).

To be a pitcher, you have to be able to pitch, not just throw the ball hard and get people out.  Seen far too many catchers get converted and it ended their career. 

 

Two way players are rarely good at both of what they do, only a few sneak through. Those are generally the ones with power arms, but can't hit the ball anymore.

I wonder how many MLB catchers pitched in high school and college?   I know Buster Posey pitched in high school. Bryce Harper caught and pitched in college.

I also wonder if pitchers, who can catch, make the best catchers because they understand the importance of framing a pitch? 

If you are a serious baseball player (heading for college or Pro), you are a pitcher or you are not! Not the pitcher today, then tomorrow's shortstop or catcher. Pitchers pitch today, then rest/ slowly prepare for their next game in a few days. You can't be a race horse today and a work horse tomorrow!!

 

Yes, the throw is different; different mechanics. Pitchers may throw 100 pitches today; most in earnest. Shortstops and catchers will make throws in earnest too.... but maybe about 12!!  So, the pitcher is at a higher risk for injury.

 

If you believe your future is pitching, then train that way. If not, focus on the position(s) that provides your best future in the game. Any coach/ manager that does not agree with this, is not acting in the best interest of the player. I believe a discussion with the coach prior to the season is the best way to determine the path. If there is a disagreement, it may be a bad match...move on. Why ruin a promising shortstop or catcher because the current team is short on pitching?

 

Originally Posted by Coach Rick:
Why ruin a promising shortstop or catcher because the current team is short on pitching?

 

Coach Rick, I understand what you have written...but the last time I posted a similar sentiment I got hammered for my kid sounding like a brat because you play where the coach wants you to play, you don't tell the coach where you, as the player, don't want to play.  Multiple people said that sounds like a non-teammate, and a poor attitude.

 

As of this moment in time my kid is 12, and his pitching is very very very good, while his catching is only very good...but he LOVES being behind the plate, not throwing over it in large part because of the rest period before and after pitching.

 

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by Coach Rick:
Why ruin a promising shortstop or catcher because the current team is short on pitching?

 

Coach Rick, I understand what you have written...but the last time I posted a similar sentiment I got hammered for my kid sounding like a brat because you play where the coach wants you to play, you don't tell the coach where you, as the player, don't want to play.  Multiple people said that sounds like a non-teammate, and a poor attitude.

 

As of this moment in time my kid is 12, and his pitching is very very very good, while his catching is only very good...but he LOVES being behind the plate, not throwing over it in large part because of the rest period before and after pitching.

 

Thoughts?


Not that he can't speak for himself, but I think Rick's response was more generally aimed at kids older than 12. Maybe I'm wrong about what he thinks, though. At 12u or even 13u, it's a different call. It's the rare kid at 12 that understands for sure that he has a promising career at any position confidentally enough to specialize at that spot.

Yes, I was referring to the player with college aspirations/ potential. At 12-13 yo, anyone/ everyone who can throw strikes is a pitcher while playing other positions. And that's OK...

But, around 14-16 a player's strengths become apparent. That's the time to focus/ invest in that position. If you believe your future is pitching, then train that way. If not, stay off the mound!!

As a coach, you want each player to advance to the next level. A school is only as good as its graduates... same with a coach.



Originally Posted by Coach Rick:

Yes, I was referring to the player with college aspirations/ potential. At 12-13 yo, anyone/ everyone who can throw strikes is a pitcher while playing other positions. And that's OK...

But, around 14-16 a player's strengths become apparent. That's the time to focus/ invest in that position. If you believe your future is pitching, then train that way. If not, stay off the mound!!

As a coach, you want each player to advance to the next level. A school is only as good as its graduates... same with a coach.



Okay, for arguments sake, how does a 15 year old who is throwing 80+ kindly tell the coach he would rather stay off the mound?

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by Coach Rick:

Yes, I was referring to the player with college aspirations/ potential. At 12-13 yo, anyone/ everyone who can throw strikes is a pitcher while playing other positions. And that's OK...

But, around 14-16 a player's strengths become apparent. That's the time to focus/ invest in that position. If you believe your future is pitching, then train that way. If not, stay off the mound!!

As a coach, you want each player to advance to the next level. A school is only as good as its graduates... same with a coach.



Okay, for arguments sake, how does a 15 year old who is throwing 80+ kindly tell the coach he would rather stay off the mound?

You are not paying attention to what was stated.  He said, and I agree, that as the player gets older their strengths become more apparent.  Just because the player is throwing 80 doesnt mean that he may be suited to be a pitcher.  Unfortunetly sooner or later someone will tell you that in order to move forward you have to accept another position. I know because it happened to son. It happens to many many players.  I think that justbaseball player pointed that out a while back in his topic.

 

Why do parents that have players who haven't made it to the larger field worry so much? As we have told you , everything changes.  You might not get that, but I assure you that you will.  Enjoy every stage and stop planning for something that at this time you have no control over.

Originally Posted by Coach Rick:

Teams are built up the middle; SS, C, CF and a few Ps. 

I believe a good catcher is more valuable to the team than a pitcher.

He plays everyday, every pitch.  Catchers are a rare breed... and they love it!!

 

I agree 100%, it takes a very special player to be a catcher, but catching at 12 is a whole lot different than at 18.

Keep in mind Buster Posey was a short stop before he was a catcher. He also could hit the ball, something that you have to do to be a top D1 or professional pitcher.

Originally Posted by Coach Rick:

Teams are built up the middle; SS, C, CF and a few Ps. 

I believe a good catcher is more valuable to the team than a pitcher.

He plays everyday, every pitch.  Catchers are a rare breed... and they love it!!

 

They should be the highest paid players on the team. 

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by Coach Rick:

Yes, I was referring to the player with college aspirations/ potential. At 12-13 yo, anyone/ everyone who can throw strikes is a pitcher while playing other positions. And that's OK...

But, around 14-16 a player's strengths become apparent. That's the time to focus/ invest in that position. If you believe your future is pitching, then train that way. If not, stay off the mound!!

As a coach, you want each player to advance to the next level. A school is only as good as its graduates... same with a coach.



Okay, for arguments sake, how does a 15 year old who is throwing 80+ kindly tell the coach he would rather stay off the mound?

"Coach my arm hurts". A friends son loved catching. He caught games in the Pony League World Series. Made the HS varsity team and played catcher his sophomore year. He threw hard and was asked to pitch his junior year. A ligament in his elbow got stretched from throwing to many breaking balls. After some rehab he finished his HS career in the outfield. He was recruited to a Major D1 to play outfield. Transferred and finished playing college ball as a utility player.

Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Okay, for arguments sake, how does a 15 year old who is throwing 80+ kindly tell the coach he would rather stay off the mound?

You are not paying attention to what was stated.  He said, and I agree, that as the player gets older their strengths become more apparent.  Just because the player is throwing 80 doesnt mean that he may be suited to be a pitcher.  Unfortunetly sooner or later someone will tell you that in order to move forward you have to accept another position. I know because it happened to son. It happens to many many players.  I think that justbaseball player pointed that out a while back in his topic.

 

Why do parents that have players who haven't made it to the larger field worry so much? As we have told you , everything changes.  You might not get that, but I assure you that you will.  Enjoy every stage and stop planning for something that at this time you have no control over.

 

1. Just because the player is throwing 80 doesnt mean that he may be suited to be a pitcher.

 

 TPM, I am well aware that you are an elder of sorts on this board...but REALLY?  A 15 year old that can throw 80+ in the strike zone...and a coach won't consider him a pitcher?  Please explain that one.....

 

2. Why do parents that have players who haven't made it to the larger field worry so much? As we have told you , everything changes.

 

I fully believe you that EVERYTHING changes, but I doubt my kid's dislike of pitching will be changing....so....why not get advice now on how HE should approach that if it naturally came up in a thread?  By all accounts he will be playing on the "big field" in September...should I wait until August to ask about it? 

Elder...lol. Thanks, I will remember that.

 

What is 80+ anyway?  There are lots of kids that throw hard, that DOES NOT make them a pitcher.  Seems like he wants to be a catcher, but there is a big possibility he will turn pitcher. If the coach says you will pitch, he will, but that is not the discussion, its whether too much throwing is any good for anyone, no matter which position they will end up playing some day.

 

One of my sons teammates in college came as a position player. He left as a pitcher, he hated it, so did his parents.  But he wasn't going to get drafted very high as a position player with a lose arm than a hitter with speed who couldn't hit. He was a pitcher for the Yankees, in ML.

 

Whats your point anyway?

Originally Posted by TPM:

Elder...lol. Thanks, I will remember that.

 

What is 80+ anyway?  There are lots of kids that throw hard, that DOES NOT make them a pitcher.  Seems like he wants to be a catcher, but there is a big possibility he will turn pitcher. If the coach says you will pitch, he will, but that is not the discussion, its whether too much throwing is any good for anyone, no matter which position they will end up playing some day.

 

One of my sons teammates in college came as a position player. He left as a pitcher, he hated it, so did his parents.  But he wasn't going to get drafted very high as a position player with a lose arm than a hitter with speed who couldn't hit. He was a pitcher for the Yankees, in ML.

 

Whats your point anyway?


I think her point is (not meaning neessarily to speak for her) that 15yo freshman throwing 80mph is going to be pressured to pitch and just saying tell the coach "no is easy advise to give, but might not be that simple. I expect to hear back from posters that, yes, it is that simple. Not for a 15yo.

Originally Posted by TPM:

Elder...lol. Thanks, I will remember that.

 

What is 80+ anyway?  There are lots of kids that throw hard, that DOES NOT make them a pitcher.  Seems like he wants to be a catcher, but there is a big possibility he will turn pitcher. If the coach says you will pitch, he will, but that is not the discussion, its whether too much throwing is any good for anyone, no matter which position they will end up playing some day.

 

One of my sons teammates in college came as a position player. He left as a pitcher, he hated it, so did his parents.  But he wasn't going to get drafted very high as a position player with a lose arm than a hitter with speed who couldn't hit. He was a pitcher for the Yankees, in ML.

 

Whats your point anyway?

Would you prefer Mrs. Elder????...sorry your 10K+ posts give you away!

 

 Sadly I think you are right...my son did really well at pitching last night posting a pretty big number, mastering every odd grip they showed him, the ball was defying the laws of motion (totally freaky to watch), and the coaches were ecstatic...but when he got in the car he looked heart broken.  He accidentally hurt one of his teammates last night because he was pitching so hard, and also said he was terrified that now all he will be allowed to do is rest/pitch/hit..rest/pitch/hit...and he will never see the field again!  Then he said, once again, that he REALLY doesn't like pitching and in the same breath asked when the next catcher only practice was... so this topic was on my brain a bit today and yes, I was off topic, but I figured it was my thread, and I could hijack it if I wanted to

Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by TPM:

Elder...lol. Thanks, I will remember that.

 

What is 80+ anyway?  There are lots of kids that throw hard, that DOES NOT make them a pitcher.  Seems like he wants to be a catcher, but there is a big possibility he will turn pitcher. If the coach says you will pitch, he will, but that is not the discussion, its whether too much throwing is any good for anyone, no matter which position they will end up playing some day.

 

One of my sons teammates in college came as a position player. He left as a pitcher, he hated it, so did his parents.  But he wasn't going to get drafted very high as a position player with a lose arm than a hitter with speed who couldn't hit. He was a pitcher for the Yankees, in ML.

 

Whats your point anyway?


I think her point is (not meaning neessarily to speak for her) that 15yo freshman throwing 80mph is going to be pressured to pitch and just saying tell the coach "no is easy advise to give, but might not be that simple. I expect to hear back from posters that, yes, it is that simple. Not for a 15yo.

Exactly...if you tell the coach no you are trying to run their team for them....if you don't speak up you are GOING to be a pitcher, which isn't what you want...so what are your choices? (And I'm talking about that 15 year old again)

 

1. Speak up and be considered an uncoachable brat?

2. Accept that even though you have talent at other positions and can hit...you can ONLY play baseball if you are a pitcher because you can pitch well?

 

Is that really what it comes down to...if you can pitch well you have ZERO choice you WILL be a pitcher or quit baseball?

Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by TPM:

Elder...lol. Thanks, I will remember that.

 

What is 80+ anyway?  There are lots of kids that throw hard, that DOES NOT make them a pitcher.  Seems like he wants to be a catcher, but there is a big possibility he will turn pitcher. If the coach says you will pitch, he will, but that is not the discussion, its whether too much throwing is any good for anyone, no matter which position they will end up playing some day.

 

One of my sons teammates in college came as a position player. He left as a pitcher, he hated it, so did his parents.  But he wasn't going to get drafted very high as a position player with a lose arm than a hitter with speed who couldn't hit. He was a pitcher for the Yankees, in ML.

 

Whats your point anyway?


I think her point is (not meaning neessarily to speak for her) that 15yo freshman throwing 80mph is going to be pressured to pitch and just saying tell the coach "no is easy advise to give, but might not be that simple. I expect to hear back from posters that, yes, it is that simple. Not for a 15yo.

Who said that the player should say no?

I agree it is not that simple. All circumstances are different. Most likely almost everyone of ours sons have been told at one time that they need to play another position other than the ONE they LOVE.  And yes I support the coach that tells the player he will make the team, but not at the position he LOVES.  What I dont support is a coach or coaches that  makes a player play stressful positions all at one time, which would be pitcher, catcher, ss.

If you come on a team that already has a catcher, and you are going to have to do bull pen duty, there are one of three things you can do, turn down another opportunity to stay in teh game, be a bull pne catcher and work on what you have to get better, or go find another team to play on. How many players play one position in travel but another in HS? 

And yes if you tell the coach no just because you dont like that position you are a spoiled brat, but if you say no because of injury issues than what is there to discuss? 

My point is not to worry about this stuff until it happens, but do have concerns if there is a health issue, for sure.

 

My opinion is that for any player, if you really LOVE the game, you will do anything to stay in it. And at some point, there may be someone who really sees better opportunity for you. I am grateful that son had good people who steered him in the right direction.

Ok so not to go backwards but for mine it was really really hard for him to be told that his future would be as a PO.  That's quite a bitter pill to swallow when you played just about every position and could hit the ball better than most (very slow though..lol). He was 16 at the time. 

 

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by TPM:

Elder...lol. Thanks, I will remember that.

 

What is 80+ anyway?  There are lots of kids that throw hard, that DOES NOT make them a pitcher.  Seems like he wants to be a catcher, but there is a big possibility he will turn pitcher. If the coach says you will pitch, he will, but that is not the discussion, its whether too much throwing is any good for anyone, no matter which position they will end up playing some day.

 

One of my sons teammates in college came as a position player. He left as a pitcher, he hated it, so did his parents.  But he wasn't going to get drafted very high as a position player with a lose arm than a hitter with speed who couldn't hit. He was a pitcher for the Yankees, in ML.

 

Whats your point anyway?


I think her point is (not meaning neessarily to speak for her) that 15yo freshman throwing 80mph is going to be pressured to pitch and just saying tell the coach "no is easy advise to give, but might not be that simple. I expect to hear back from posters that, yes, it is that simple. Not for a 15yo.

Exactly...if you tell the coach no you are trying to run their team for them....if you don't speak up you are GOING to be a pitcher, which isn't what you want...so what are your choices? (And I'm talking about that 15 year old again)

 

1. Speak up and be considered an uncoachable brat?

2. Accept that even though you have talent at other positions and can hit...you can ONLY play baseball if you are a pitcher because you can pitch well?

 

Is that really what it comes down to...if you can pitch well you have ZERO choice you WILL be a pitcher or quit baseball?

I will say it one more time, maybe you will get it, you are just worrying about something that you do not have to at this time.

Originally Posted by TPM:

And yes if you tell the coach no just because you dont like that position you are a spoiled brat, but if you say no because of injury issues than what is there to discuss? 

I get you are a brat if you say I will ONLY play position X....but is the 15 year old a brat if he says I would prefer to play ANY of the other 8 positions, please I don't want to pitch.

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:

And yes if you tell the coach no just because you dont like that position you are a spoiled brat, but if you say no because of injury issues than what is there to discuss? 

I get you are a brat if you say I will ONLY play position X....but is the 15 year old a brat if he says I would prefer to play ANY of the other 8 positions, please I don't want to pitch.


I'll have to admit that if he were on my team, I'd probably be pressuring him to pitch. I'd try to sell it rather than demand it, but I wouldn't passively take no for an answer. My understanding is that your kid is in a pretty well known program with a lot of talent. They probably won't be so desparate for pitching talent that they will press too much. Trust me, they will press a little, though.

 

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:

And yes if you tell the coach no just because you dont like that position you are a spoiled brat, but if you say no because of injury issues than what is there to discuss? 

I get you are a brat if you say I will ONLY play position X....but is the 15 year old a brat if he says I would prefer to play ANY of the other 8 positions, please I don't want to pitch.

CaCO, I've been reading your threads and posts.  If I understand correctly your son wants to be a catcher, you are paying an org to develop / play your son, they are wanting him to pitch, and he is 12.  Tell the coach he wants to be a catcher, not a pitcher.  If they still insist he pitch, go somewhere else.

 

You know your son and situation much better than the posters.

 

It's that simple.

Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:

And yes if you tell the coach no just because you dont like that position you are a spoiled brat, but if you say no because of injury issues than what is there to discuss? 

I get you are a brat if you say I will ONLY play position X....but is the 15 year old a brat if he says I would prefer to play ANY of the other 8 positions, please I don't want to pitch.


I'll have to admit that if he were on my team, I'd probably be pressuring him to pitch. I'd try to sell it rather than demand it, but I wouldn't passively take no for an answer. My understanding is that your kid is in a pretty well known program with a lot of talent. They probably won't be so desparate for pitching talent that they will press too much. Trust me, they will press a little, though.

 

How does one know what will happen in years from now when the player reaches and plays in HS? If you told son he was gonna be a PO he would have laughed you in the face. However, he loved the game so much he would do anything he was told, and above all he trusted those that were telling him where his success would come.

Pitchers become pitchers only for a reason.  Only if you are better suited ( speed, pop time, leadership) for another position will a very live arm never pitch. More catchers in pro ball will convert to pitchers to stay in the game or accept another position, only if they can HIT the ball.

 

Come recruiting time any coach running a travel team worth anything WILL press you to play at the position you are best at.

 

 

Get your kid on a team that will play him as the #1 catcher, it's pretty simple. I think you "may" be caught up in an "organization" or a "name on a jersey". He can ALWAYS practice pitching with a pitching coach if that is what you/he sees as his ultimate path to college or pro ball. I love hearing from "elite" teams parents (not an indictment) who blather on about having their kid being seen, winning the xxy national tourney in Hoboken or droning on about their coaches who are the best yadda yadda yadda. Let your kid play on a team who values him as their #1 catcher....and sometimes, for heaven's sake you have be the parent and help him make that move to a team.. without his friends so that his interest/desire of being a catcher is respected & applied. 

 

Anyone who thinks at 12U a kid is a quitter for not adjusting to the coaches wishes can go pound sand....everything changes a few years down the road and those 12U coaches wont be there to pick your kid up....i guarantee it.

I agree. Now I'm trying to be funny here. In a perfect world all our boys would be 5 tool ball players. Or at least 2-way ball players. Trotsky baseball and MLB scouts would add a 6th tool. They want a ballplayer to have that intangible quality. The mental makeup a player develops. The ability to slow the game down. I'd like to add the 7th tool for the pitcher. The ability to not remember what happened 10 seconds earlier. Pitchers are pitchers because they love to pitch. At the highest level, Pitchers are a rare and strange breed.

They are just as rare as catchers. Agreed.
I am just wondering how far any player gets playing just one position HS. I remember whoever caught also played other positions. As long as they hit they didnt sit. 
Most position players given scholarships just didnt play one position in youth ball or in HS.
Why not just try letting your player be the best he can be and not worry about whats gonna happen when he isnt even in HS yet?
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Then he said, once again, that he REALLY doesn't like pitching and in the same breath asked when the next catcher only practice was...

Just have him catch. He's 12 and he doesn't like pitching, he likes catching, so let him catch (on a different team if his current one won't let him). He should be having fun playing, not be forced into something at age 12 that he doesn't want to do. That seems like a recipe for an unhappy kid. And if his future (i.e., high school varsity, college, etc.) really, truly is on the mound, he won't be harmed by NOT pitching in travel ball at age 12. Heck, it might actually help him to NOT throw 100 innings or 500 curveballs this year.

Well I think I have said over and over for years and years as a young player its about having fun. And that not pitching until later is more beneficial.
But what do I know.
You can do whatever you wish with your topic..I'm out.
granbyfan posted:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:

Just looked up on PG.

 

Top 50 ranked 2014's, total of 5 catchers:

#4, Alex Jackson = C, OF, 3B

#24, Jackson Reetz = C, RHP, OF

#29, Cobi Johnson = RHP, C, IF

#43, Devon Fisher = C, 3B, RHP, 1B

#45, Chase Vallot = C

 

3/5 of the best catchers last year were also pitchers.....thoughts?

#43 Devon Fisher Pitched 0 inning senior year on State Championship team. Drafted by Boston as catcher.

Actually Devon Fisher had pitched pretty much his entire Jr year at GCA and did in fact close out quite a few games for WB his Sr year. Ironically enough after injuring his left shoulder in the GCL 2015, he has now converted to a full time pitcher for the Red Sox.

CaCO3Girl posted:

I was talking with a 17u coach the other day and he was adamant that ALL of his catchers are pitchers.  He was very clear that he lets them rest, pitch, rest then later on in the tournament he uses them as catchers.  He said it makes the most sense because pitchers and catchers both need incredible strength, and while the throwing mechanics are different for each the strength required to make the throw is the same, and not similar to OF or the rest of the IF.  Also, it makes a better catcher if he understands fully how to pitch.

 

Now I have read on here multiple times that it is NOT good to have a player be both catcher and pitcher, it over uses the arm and will shorten the shelf life of both a catcher and a pitcher.

 

Anyone have strong feelings on this one way or the other? 

 

 

I find the idea to be bizarre. And you're talking to a guy who did both, up till I was 16 yo.

My son pitched and caught thru high school, but was always watched very carefully to be sure he didn't over do it.  He went to college as a catcher but at his D1 they always looked at any of the players who had experience pitching in the fall to see what they had.  He went to a D1 JUCO his freshman year and was a catcher only.  He was picked up his soph year by a good mid major D1 and won the starting catchers job as a soph, but broke his hand sliding into second the first inning of the second game of the year.  In a cast all he could do was throw, and when he was released after 6 weeks he wasn't allowed to hit or catch.  He entered a few games and pitched, did well some games, struggled in others.  Next fall at pro day he hit 95 twice in front of the scouts.  Spent that year as DH and did a little pitching.  He was drafted as a pitcher, didn't sign and returned to get his degree.  His senior year he was all conference catcher.  He played 4 years after college, the first as a pitcher and the next three as a catcher.

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