@stranded1 posted:

This is a great post. I'd like to add, that while some here, in the greatest country in the world, have given up to the point they're saying "we're all going to get it", somehow in the large majority of industrialized nations the spread of the virus has been stopped or greatly slowed. So are Americans and our leaders just that selfish, ignorant, and stupid that WE can't stop a virus that 95% of the world has been able to stop? Is that how low we've sunk?

I have stayed engaged and open to new information, arguments, POV's, un-slanted data, etc., etc.  I have learned from both sides of the argument (although remain disappointed that there is not a wider consensus that this is another complex issue with no clear definitive right or wrong side while the majority seem firmly planted on one side or the other). 

That said, I have yet to see the other side of this particular argument (large majority of other industrialized nations have stopped or greatly slowed the spread) respond with any substance.  Same goes for the fact that while that same side argues we just need to keep those compromised in isolation, the fact is that roughly half (47-48%) of Americans meet some criteria of being health-compromised.  Why is this never specifically addressed by those who want to just let everything open up and let those of us who are healthy live normally?  Lastly, that same side has yet to shed any light on how to avoid the inevitable downline infection that is clearly occurring when "little or no limits" actions are taken.

Please enlighten me with substance, not just claiming that everything is about getting the bad orange man, a world-wide conspiracy, taking away my rights or just because tests increased.

Also, the curve came down significantly when guidelines, restrictions and shut down were put in place.  The combination of re-opening, loosened restrictions and refusal of many to adhere to restrictions in place have resulted in a reversal of the downward curve.  I would be curious to hear from both sides what they think the added death tally would be right now had those restrictions not been put in place during those few months and what your rationale is.  Yes, I know what several of the experts are estimating and yes, I know that some will claim those numbers are fake news.  So, then, give me better, more viable news.  Let's get back to facts and details, please.  And don't pick the tiny hamlet of Northwest suburbia as your case study.  Don't pick an isolated sound bite taken out of context as your argument base.  Go.

@RJM posted:

Not true at all. The Maine border is only twenty miles from the Massachusetts border. Massachusetts has been a COVID hotbed with 8,200+ deaths. Maine has had 117. If situations are consistent across the board, given the difference in population Maine should have 1,400+ deaths. 

Maine has also put the restrictions in place to make it a slow burn instead of forest fire, while Mass waited.  

you want facts then say in the same sentence not to tell you that testing has increased??? well played.

Interesting as Area Codes came up in this topic as I am reading through it. Planning a drive in two days to attend an AC tryout. It will be our first hotel stay since the pandemic started. 

My son has been fortunate enough to be playing ball for about 6 weeks now. We had a covid scare on our team (turned out to be strep throat instead) and we have had several players and parents in our organization diagnosed with covid. Those teams shut down for 2-3 weeks and quarantined. Most of those boys were asymptomatic and have since tested negative. But I am waiting for baseball to get shut down any day now. Mostly not because of the players, but because of the spectators and the lack of enforcement of masks and distancing at events. One of the complexes we frequently play at, the layout of the stands and the walkways really doesn't make it easy to see the field and distance. I understand the stands weren't designed for a situation like this, but the spectators are pretty much on top of each other and few wearing masks. When masks "became mandatory" in our state, that day was the most masks that I had seen at the complex. The tournament organization kept telling people the fire marshal was coming out to make sure fans were wearing masks and even asked players to have masks in the dugout. As soon as people caught on that it wasn't going to be enforced, masks disappeared. Just waiting for the instance of a couple of the spectators to come up with positive tests and the complex shutting down.

My son's team was supposed to go to Florida for the PG 15u World Series. Instead they will be staying in state and playing a local PG world series event. My son was also supposed to go to the PG Freshman All American event this year in Florida. After seeing how everything is going down in not only our state, but in Florida, we decided we would skip that event. Our biggest fear is getting there and a quarantine mandate gets put into place. 

I had been working from home from March 16th until May 18th. We slowly opened up our office. People with offices were allowed to come in and people in cube farms had rotations so that only a limited amount of people were in the office at one time and there was distancing. But 3 weeks in we started to get some scares of people being exposed. As soon as that happened, our office shut down again and we are all now working from home again with no end in sight. It actually turned out to be a good thing as we had two employees who tested positive. 

It's crazy how in the 3 months working from home I didn't know anyone who had tested positive and now I don't have enough fingers and toes to count those people. 

We not only have to deal with our states issues, but also with California's mandates. My wife's business is back in our old home state of California. We just found out today that she is being shut down again as the county her business is in is on the hot list for the state. So now we are back to where we were in March as far as income wise. 

As far as getting out, besides baseball, we do take out or food delivery several times a week. My wife has eaten inside a restaurant, but I have stuck to eating outside only. We used to do grocery delivery when we were in lock down. When we opened up we started to make a trip here or there out to get groceries. I started to get comfortable and I have gone to the grocery store, Target, Walmart, and Home Depot a handful of times. I would say that 90% of people in our stores are wearing masks, so it does make it a more comfortable situation, but I have a feeling that will change. Our county leadership and law enforcement has basically said they will not enforce the state mask law. So I will definitely be pulling back on how often I am going to the stores. And I am finding Target actually has the best distancing and will probably make that the one place to go. The grocery store seems to be the worse.

Like others have said, despite the bickering at times in this post, it is kind of therapeutic to read everyone's thoughts and opinions. I don't lean left or right. I am a fall in line and do whats right guy / path of least resistance. I do worry a lot about how this is all going to play out, how it will ever end, worry about leadership in place to guide us through the event, and how it is going to effect my daughter's senior year in college and how it will effect my son's upcoming years in high school. My wife leans to the right, so I get her side all the time. So getting everyone's views on here does help out a lot. Much thanks.

Stay safe and healthy everyone!

@wildcat posted:

Maine has also put the restrictions in place to make it a slow burn instead of forest fire, while Mass waited.  

There’s been no burn at all. As of the last time I checked of the 111 deaths, .00008% of the population (there have been three since) most have been people over 70 with preexisting conditions. Those under 70 all had preexisting conditions. Not one healthy person has died in Maine.

Maine didn’t need to close. All that was needed was to shelter at risk people. The state could have stayed open with distancing. 

The people I know (of) in Maine who have tested positive are all twenty something kids of my friends and their friends who hit the bars/clubs when they reopened.

Based on in state approval/disapproval polling Governor Mills is the 7th most disliked governor in the country . It’s based on how she’s perceived to have handled COVID. 

@GloFisher posted:

The hypocrisy is what I take issue with.  Those that tout the "experts" or "the science" blindly is like following the doctors who said smoking was not dangerous to your health while being paid by the American Tobacco Association.  They are biased and with an agenda.  We are facing a pandemic and very trying times in our country, yet we can't have an honest and open discussion without political bias.  The new spike in cases was because the economy opened too soon but had nothing to do with mass gatherings.  really?  I have seen posts and non stop articles about the present administration's "atrocious mismanagement" of the virus yet I haven't seen complaints about the $600/week checks being cashed or the PPP received... or one viable alternative put forth in realtime, just bashing.. or mention of a certain Dem governor whose decision resulted in more deaths than FL, TX, CA, and GA combined.  Are our numbers really brutal?  it depends on how look at it.  absolute numbers?  death rate? We are supposed to follow the science... but what science are we to follow?  The one that said we will have a million deaths?  The one that told us that we don't need to wear masks (WHO and Fauci in April)?  The one that said virus live on surfaces for 10 days or the one that said  can't be transmitted from surfaces (CDC)?  The one that said asymptomatic patients can't spread the virus (WHO)?   The one that said vaccine candidates are working or the reports that antibodies may only last a few months?  The doctor buddy who says this is overstated and the ICU's are empty or the one that tells a story about a healthy person who had a bad outcome?  Are we to trust the published Covid numbers when it seems certain that the deaths are over counted because of the financial benefits the hospitals receive from a CV death?  Or the spike in cases following increased testing?  I am tired of grossly exaggerated media stories and biased "science."  What I do know is that we were told that we need to shelter in place to curve the virus and then, when that happened, the narrative changed.  Now it's shelter in place until a vaccine? or until the election?  There captainwere going to be tradeoffs no matter what in this situation.  I agree that there are complications with CV beyond just deaths but I also believe there are complications from closing schools and online learning, especially in low income areas.  There are complications from lost jobs and income.  If you own a business and want the economy to open back up, I understand and respect that.  Likewise, if you are in a high risk category and want everyone to stay home and shelter in place to help protect you.. I understand why you feel that way.  I respect that as well.  But using faulty "science" to push a political agenda I do not respect.  

Captain Kirk:  Bones, when do you think this Covid thing will finally begin to disappear?

@cabbagedad posted:

I have stayed engaged and open to new information, arguments, POV's, un-slanted data, etc., etc.  I have learned from both sides of the argument (although remain disappointed that there is not a wider consensus that this is another complex issue with no clear definitive right or wrong side while the majority seem firmly planted on one side or the other). 

That said, I have yet to see the other side of this particular argument (large majority of other industrialized nations have stopped or greatly slowed the spread) respond with any substance.  Same goes for the fact that while that same side argues we just need to keep those compromised in isolation, the fact is that roughly half (47-48%) of Americans meet some criteria of being health-compromised.  Why is this never specifically addressed by those who want to just let everything open up and let those of us who are healthy live normally?  Lastly, that same side has yet to shed any light on how to avoid the inevitable downline infection that is clearly occurring when "little or no limits" actions are taken.

Please enlighten me with substance, not just claiming that everything is about getting the bad orange man, a world-wide conspiracy, taking away my rights or just because tests increased.

Also, the curve came down significantly when guidelines, restrictions and shut down were put in place.  The combination of re-opening, loosened restrictions and refusal of many to adhere to restrictions in place have resulted in a reversal of the downward curve.  I would be curious to hear from both sides what they think the added death tally would be right now had those restrictions not been put in place during those few months and what your rationale is.  Yes, I know what several of the experts are estimating and yes, I know that some will claim those numbers are fake news.  So, then, give me better, more viable news.  Let's get back to facts and details, please.  And don't pick the tiny hamlet of Northwest suburbia as your case study.  Don't pick an isolated sound bite taken out of context as your argument base.  Go.

I think that it is interesting that you refer to "sides",  and ask people to align themselves with one or the other and defend their position.  Hence, you are acknowledging this is a political agenda and not a medical or health agenda.  I don't want to get into that absurd notion that other industrialized nations have stopped or slowed the spread without cost of excess life.  

For months, I personally have encouraged people to look at the data for themselves without using someone else ( or a news source) to interpret for them or tell them what is happening.  The CDC has a plethora of data available on their website.   So why speculate on the death tally.  Here it is from the CDC's website.  So, I'll invite you (or any others that care to speculate) to give your interpretation of this graph of weekly Covid-19 deaths in the US?  Go.

Maybe those of you that think it's selfish to bring an end to the increased domestic abuse, unemployment, isolationism, suicide, and general disconcert would like to comment on this graph.

@edcoach posted:

you want facts then say in the same sentence not to tell you that testing has increased??? well played.

Obviously, testing has increased.  I'm sorry I didn't communicate more clearly.  My abbreviated statement was meant to convey "don't tell me the only reason there are more cases is because there is more testing."

@Pedaldad posted:

I think that it is interesting that you refer to "sides",  and ask people to align themselves with one or the other and defend their position.  Hence, you are acknowledging this is a political agenda and not a medical or health agenda.  I don't want to get into that absurd notion that other industrialized nations have stopped or slowed the spread without cost of excess life.  

For months, I personally have encouraged people to look at the data for themselves without using someone else ( or a news source) to interpret for them or tell them what is happening.  The CDC has a plethora of data available on their website.   So why speculate on the death tally.  Here it is from the CDC's website.  So, I'll invite you (or any others that care to speculate) to give your interpretation of this graph of weekly Covid-19 deaths in the US?  Go.

Maybe those of you that think it's selfish to bring an end to the increased domestic abuse, unemployment, isolationism, suicide, and general disconcert would like to comment on this graph.

Pedaldad, I didn't ask anyone to align themselves with one side or the other - most in this conversation have already made very clear what their position is.  I simply asked some questions that I am genuinely interested in regarding certain sub-topics within this issue.  

Also, I'm not sure what you mean that I am acknowledging this is a political agenda and not a medical or health agenda.  One would have to be totally oblivious not to see that many have aligned their thoughts on the issue along those of their preferred party line but it is a virus pandemic, for God's sake... of course it is a medical/health issue.   

As far as your invitation to interpret the graph - well, we see that the virus is more fatal with older age groups, which of course we already knew.  The CDC death numbers have between a week and two weeks lag time, so, unfortunately, this graph doesn't properly illustrate the fact that the death numbers have since flattened and then turned upward over the last few weeks.

Again...

 https://www.google.com/search?...=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I'm really not sure why you say the notion that other industrialized nations have stopped or slowed the spread of the virus is absurd.  By all accounts, most clearly have at least made far more progress than we have.  

Your comments regarding domestic abuse, unemployment, isolationism, etc. have merit and must be weighed against the mounting Covid deaths and other related significant health concerns associated with the virus.  Again, this aligns with my POV that this is a complex issue with no definitive right or wrong.  

Now, if you could answer my specific questions, I remain open to better insight...

@cabbagedad posted:

 

I'm really not sure why you say the notion that other industrialized nations have stopped or slowed the spread of the virus is absurd.  By all accounts, most clearly have at least made far more progress than we have.  

...

This is too general of an observation.   It really requires a country by country discussion on how each classifies a covid case or death, do they test people multiple times counting the same person 2-3 times as positive, are they counting antibody tests, are they counting covid likely cases and covid likely deaths, what is their test rate as a % of their population meaning are they capturing asymptomatic,  are there financial incentives for their docs, hospitals or HC systems to code a death covid, do other countries classifying a death due to a co-morbidity vs classifying as covid, do other countries have governments that would prefer to show fewer covid deaths/cases than more... I am sure I am missing 5-10 other factors that need to be normalized to have a legitimate discussion on this.    I wrote and pulled out two reasons that contributed greatly to our totals but felt they would be viewed as too political too....

@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:

This is too general of an observation.   It really requires a country by country discussion on how each classifies a covid case or death, do they test people multiple times counting the same person 2-3 times as positive, are they counting antibody tests, are they counting covid likely cases and covid likely deaths, what is their test rate as a % of their population meaning are they capturing asymptomatic,  are there financial incentives for their docs, hospitals or HC systems to code a death covid, do other countries classifying a death due to a co-morbidity vs classifying as covid, do other countries have governments that would prefer to show fewer covid deaths/cases than more... I am sure I am missing 5-10 other factors that need to be normalized to have a legitimate discussion on this.    I wrote and pulled out two reasons that contributed greatly to our totals but felt they would be viewed as too political too....

those damn facts keep coming back...the truth is that this is political, it is being weaponized and it isn't going to change.  

@Pedaldad posted:

I think that it is interesting that you refer to "sides",  and ask people to align themselves with one or the other and defend their position.  Hence, you are acknowledging this is a political agenda and not a medical or health agenda.  I don't want to get into that absurd notion that other industrialized nations have stopped or slowed the spread without cost of excess life.  

For months, I personally have encouraged people to look at the data for themselves without using someone else ( or a news source) to interpret for them or tell them what is happening.  The CDC has a plethora of data available on their website.   So why speculate on the death tally.  Here it is from the CDC's website.  So, I'll invite you (or any others that care to speculate) to give your interpretation of this graph of weekly Covid-19 deaths in the US?  Go.

Maybe those of you that think it's selfish to bring an end to the increased domestic abuse, unemployment, isolationism, suicide, and general disconcert would like to comment on this graph.

love it when pedal come is and hit them over the head with numbers and logic. My favorite part of the day.the facts are the facts .... 99% of us, yes that’s correct, didn’t get this or die from it. So maybe look at the bigger overall picture instead of cowering in the corner. Respect it, mitigate and move on.

your replies are case and point...  more hypocrisy and political BS.  Florida cases and deaths are spiking tremendously?  yes. cases grew 5% to 282K.   But deaths?  35 people died in FL yesterday.  Let's compare FL's numbers to NY.  FL 282k cases and 4277 deaths.  NY 402k and 32,300 deaths.  1.5% death rate vs. 8%.  and Florida has largely remained open.  What is going on in NY?  have you looked at the crime rate?  Yet you are ripping the FL governor for doing such a bad job, even admitting that seniors have remained quarantined.  Perhaps NY's Gov should have done the same.  

@Fmr coach now Dad posted:

love it when pedal come is and hit them over the head with numbers and logic. My favorite part of the day.the facts are the facts .... 99% of us, yes that’s correct, didn’t get this or die from it. So maybe look at the bigger overall picture instead of cowering in the corner. Respect it, mitigate and move on.

If we know one thing about this pandemic, it is that facts are constantly changing, because the more data we have, the more we can get more precise about everything to do with this disease.

Deaths are down, that is fantastic.  When you show us the overlay graphs of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths, which show each lagging the previous by a couple of weeks, and then show that this hasn't happened with this rise in cases, I'll be happier.  Pedaldad, I do look at sources of data all the time.  Data shows that deaths rise about a month after cases rise.  If it doesn't happen this time, that will be fantastic.  We are not yet in the period where we can claim that that has happened; that is to say, cases started going up around June 20.  So one would expect deaths to start increasing about a month after that - so around July 18.  We are not there yet.  If deaths do rise sharply, then what?  Because we spent a month saying that deaths weren't going up, the number of cases has exploded.  I would love for it to be the case that younger people are the majority of cases and aren't going to die.  We don't know that quite yet.

I agree that looking at all other countries doesn't tell much.  Looking at some other countries does. 

I say again, you are right that 99+% won't die of this.  But, I don't have to spend my money if I don't want to, either.  I don't see that it matters whether that is health-related or political.  For the record, I think this applies to any job.  I want schools to re-open, but I don't want any teacher to feel that they have to put their health or the health of their family at risk.  How do you square that circle?  I think that there are ways to do it, but only by radically re-thinking how schools operate, and no-one has had time for that.  Some universities have done a better job of this, but not all.

So if deaths are still down in a month, are we good? Can we live again, or will we move the goal post again?

Well let’s see how I can “close” it. My wife is a teacher , we have 3 kids, and where I live even if the people who “think” they have it only .008% do so I think we are safe. So to me there are much scarier things that this virus when it comes to the overall health picture. Last year 18/19 of her kids were out with the flu, and absolutely nothing was even remotely done to mitigate this at all. I also hear daily about the social and emotional health of what’s happening to the kids. Yes that concerns me more than the virus. Again , let me say it loud for you, mitigate and move on. Cowering in a bubble in the corner is just silly. So there 

@baseballhs posted:

So if deaths are still down in a month, are we good? Can we live again, or will we move the goal post again?

Well I was told this morning there is a massive shortage of tests and Americans can't get tested. Weird. FL tested over 143k people in a single day. Not sure what the heck other states are doing. 

I imagine we'll have another social issue that will be blown up, then a goal post move. Maybe a murder hornet death or two to get the fear going. The political machine is working overtime to keep the attention off one candidate and trying to tear down the country to make sure another isn't elected again. 

@baseballhs posted:

So if deaths are still down in a month, are we good? Can we live again, or will we move the goal post again?

Regardless of what the statistics are in a month, the goal posts will be moved again. They will be moved one direction by the Left and they will be moved the other direction by the Right. And everyone will continue to argue about who is right. How much fun!!  I can’t wait. 

So, I did the poll on Facebook.  If a Covid vaccine comes out, would you take it?  Simple question no other information.  As of this morning, I have 97 responses.  all but 5 say no, most adamantly.  All 5 of those who said yes were liberals and the other 92 were a mix maybe leaning toward conservative but not strongly leaning.  Even 6 were nurses or doctors and all said no unless their employer made them.  So from my poll which is a tiny cross of Americans but a good cross.  I don't believe the vaccine is the answer.  I don't believe most would take the vaccine.  Only 37.1% of the population takes a flu vaccine.  It is not death rate as we have already beat that horse into the ground.  I just wonder what is truly the gauge to get back to life.  The only thing left is positive test numbers and according to the CDC only 3,754,729 have tested positive of 328,200,000 people in US which is a crazy low percent.  So what is the gauge for staying shut? 

@PitchingFan posted:

So, I did the poll on Facebook.  If a Covid vaccine comes out, would you take it?  Simple question no other information.  As of this morning, I have 97 responses.  all but 5 say no, most adamantly.  All 5 of those who said yes were liberals and the other 92 were a mix maybe leaning toward conservative but not strongly leaning.  Even 6 were nurses or doctors and all said no unless their employer made them.  So from my poll which is a tiny cross of Americans but a good cross.  I don't believe the vaccine is the answer.  I don't believe most would take the vaccine.  Only 37.1% of the population takes a flu vaccine.  It is not death rate as we have already beat that horse into the ground.  I just wonder what is truly the gauge to get back to life.  The only thing left is positive test numbers and according to the CDC only 3,754,729 have tested positive of 328,200,000 people in US which is a crazy low percent.  So what is the gauge for staying shut? 

IMO, the vaccine is just another goalpost waiting to be used. I'm starting to hear it now. "but we're just a few months away from a vaccine". Sorry folks, but there are more and more opinions coming out that we may never have a vaccine for it. 

Good idea for a poll experiment. I bet you opened a few eyes with it. 

It really surprised me.  I would have thought it would have been closer to 50%.  I would have never guessed it would have been so low.  And the surprising fact is there were no ladies that said they would take it.  All 5 were men.

@cabbagedad posted:

 

That said, I have yet to see the other side of this particular argument (large majority of other industrialized nations have stopped or greatly slowed the spread) respond with any substance.  Same goes for the fact that while that same side argues we just need to keep those compromised in isolation, the fact is that roughly half (47-48%) of Americans meet some criteria of being health-compromised.  Why is this never specifically addressed by those who want to just let everything open up and let those of us who are healthy live normally?  Lastly, that same side has yet to shed any light on how to avoid the inevitable downline infection that is clearly occurring when "little or no limits" actions are taken.

Please enlighten me with substance, not just claiming that everything is about getting the bad orange man, a world-wide conspiracy, taking away my rights or just because tests increased.

Also, the curve came down significantly when guidelines, restrictions and shut down were put in place.  The combination of re-opening, loosened restrictions and refusal of many to adhere to restrictions in place have resulted in a reversal of the downward curve.  I would be curious to hear from both sides what they think the added death tally would be right now had those restrictions not been put in place during those few months and what your rationale is.  Yes, I know what several of the experts are estimating and yes, I know that some will claim those numbers are fake news.  So, then, give me better, more viable news.  Let's get back to facts and details, please.  And don't pick the tiny hamlet of Northwest suburbia as your case study.  Don't pick an isolated sound bite taken out of context as your argument base.  Go.

Problem is that answering everything would take a long essay, but I'll try and keep it down.  So, I'll start with comparing to other countries.  The US has a history of bucking collectivism more than Asia and parts of Western Europe.  England is probably the most similar European country, and they are still worse off than the US in deaths, which I think is the most important metric overall.  Is this Trump's fault?  Of course it is partially, but there is a level of over the top hysteria that is leveled at him.  What further hurts him is that he is a complete (insert bad word here).  He is just a bad guy, and even if I like his economic policy, I don't like the way he acts, and can't support it.  I have to deal with many people who don't act the best as somebody who has a lot of power myself.  I will tell you that what makes me effective is my ability to have a very thick skin and to think of the big picture when I respond to people..... but I digress.

For the initial shutdowns, they were absolutely warranted IMO, and reduced fatalities.  I also think that going forward that certain things need to come back, such as kids going to schools.  I do think it will hurt them to not be in class more than covid risk hurts them.  For Colleges, I think there can be a balance where socially distanced face to face (mostly to protect the faculty members) and some online instruction.  We are working on that right now. 

@PitchingFan posted:

So, I did the poll on Facebook.  If a Covid vaccine comes out, would you take it?  Simple question no other information.  As of this morning, I have 97 responses.  all but 5 say no, most adamantly.  All 5 of those who said yes were liberals and the other 92 were a mix maybe leaning toward conservative but not strongly leaning.  Even 6 were nurses or doctors and all said no unless their employer made them.  So from my poll which is a tiny cross of Americans but a good cross.  I don't believe the vaccine is the answer.  I don't believe most would take the vaccine.  Only 37.1% of the population takes a flu vaccine.  It is not death rate as we have already beat that horse into the ground.  I just wonder what is truly the gauge to get back to life.  The only thing left is positive test numbers and according to the CDC only 3,754,729 have tested positive of 328,200,000 people in US which is a crazy low percent.  So what is the gauge for staying shut? 

@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:

This is too general of an observation.   It really requires a country by country discussion on how each classifies a covid case or death, do they test people multiple times counting the same person 2-3 times as positive, are they counting antibody tests, are they counting covid likely cases and covid likely deaths, what is their test rate as a % of their population meaning are they capturing asymptomatic,  are there financial incentives for their docs, hospitals or HC systems to code a death covid, do other countries classifying a death due to a co-morbidity vs classifying as covid, do other countries have governments that would prefer to show fewer covid deaths/cases than more... I am sure I am missing 5-10 other factors that need to be normalized to have a legitimate discussion on this.    I wrote and pulled out two reasons that contributed greatly to our totals but felt they would be viewed as too political too....

Cool, finally, some legitimate rationale behind a statement.  Agree there are these many factors that make country-by-country comparisons difficult.  I admit that my earlier thought was that the differences in performance and trends of US compared to other industrialized nations were stark enough that even these many factors couldn't explain away why our country is performing so much more poorly than most.  So, I dug some more and ran across this chart from the Euro CDC...

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus

So, our country is still obviously doing very poorly but looking at it from this perspective (and from a strong source) tells me that there are plenty of other countries also experiencing more of a resurgence than I thought and it also brings your complex variables more strongly into play.  Meter moved.

@PitchingFan posted:

So, I did the poll on Facebook.  If a Covid vaccine comes out, would you take it?  Simple question no other information.  As of this morning, I have 97 responses.  all but 5 say no, most adamantly.  All 5 of those who said yes were liberals and the other 92 were a mix maybe leaning toward conservative but not strongly leaning.  Even 6 were nurses or doctors and all said no unless their employer made them.  So from my poll which is a tiny cross of Americans but a good cross.  I don't believe the vaccine is the answer.  I don't believe most would take the vaccine.  Only 37.1% of the population takes a flu vaccine.  It is not death rate as we have already beat that horse into the ground.  I just wonder what is truly the gauge to get back to life.  The only thing left is positive test numbers and according to the CDC only 3,754,729 have tested positive of 328,200,000 people in US which is a crazy low percent.  So what is the gauge for staying shut? 

I’m not a liberal. I would take the vaccine as soon as a few million have taken it and the severe reaction rate is in the tenths of one percent. I also get a shingles and pneumonia shot. I don’t get the flu shot. It made me ill. Outside the 24 hour, don’t feel 100% version I’ve only had severe, head in the toilet, feel like dying, five day flu once in my life.

Not only would take the vaccine, but I have signed up to be a phase 3 tester. 

Some folks are going to have to step up, and not just in the younger demographic.

Most of the safety issues are determined in phase 1 and 2.

@JCG posted:

Not only would take the vaccine, but I have signed up to be a phase 3 tester. 

Some folks are going to have to step up, and not just in the younger demographic.

Most of the safety issues are determined in phase 1 and 2.

 

How do you sign up for that? I agree that people are going to have to help out. If I can I will. 

Here:

https://www.coronaviruspreventionnetwork.org/

All this thread is missing is classic commentary by Tim the Enchanter.       

When the elephant is in the room, please wear a mask to protect yourself and others! 

@fenwaysouth posted:

When the elephant is in the room, please wear a mask to protect yourself and others! 

Remember: the mask is worthless if you don't cover your nose!

(Although I would argue it is worthless, regardless...)

Here is a good article on schools reopening.  Very long...

https://www.sciencemag.org/new...ay-despite-outbreaks

@anotherparent posted:

If we know one thing about this pandemic, it is that facts are constantly changing, because the more data we have, the more we can get more precise about everything to do with this disease.

Deaths are down, that is fantastic.  When you show us the overlay graphs of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths, which show each lagging the previous by a couple of weeks, and then show that this hasn't happened with this rise in cases, I'll be happier.  Pedaldad, I do look at sources of data all the time.  Data shows that deaths rise about a month after cases rise.  If it doesn't happen this time, that will be fantastic.  We are not yet in the period where we can claim that that has happened; that is to say, cases started going up around June 20.  So one would expect deaths to start increasing about a month after that - so around July 18.  We are not there yet.  If deaths do rise sharply, then what?  Because we spent a month saying that deaths weren't going up, the number of cases has exploded.  I would love for it to be the case that younger people are the majority of cases and aren't going to die.  We don't know that quite yet.

I agree that looking at all other countries doesn't tell much.  Looking at some other countries does. 

I say again, you are right that 99+% won't die of this.  But, I don't have to spend my money if I don't want to, either.  I don't see that it matters whether that is health-related or political.  For the record, I think this applies to any job.  I want schools to re-open, but I don't want any teacher to feel that they have to put their health or the health of their family at risk.  How do you square that circle?  I think that there are ways to do it, but only by radically re-thinking how schools operate, and no-one has had time for that.  Some universities have done a better job of this, but not all.

So 4 more days?

@PitchingFan posted:

So, I did the poll on Facebook.  If a Covid vaccine comes out, would you take it?  Simple question no other information.  As of this morning, I have 97 responses.  all but 5 say no, most adamantly.  All 5 of those who said yes were liberals and the other 92 were a mix maybe leaning toward conservative but not strongly leaning.  Even 6 were nurses or doctors and all said no unless their employer made them. 

Severe lack of trust. Way worse than I thought. 

It is absolutely ludicrous to me that grocery store employees, restaurant employees, police, medical personnel, can all go back to work but teachers can't?  They get a hall pass?  With a 99% survival rate, we are going to let kids rot at home on computers for a year?  2 years?  There are universities with huge endowments that are going all online because professors want to stay home.  Great, but we don't have to spend our money right, so if it all collapses, so be it?  How hard is it to build a plexiglass type box and give teachers wireless microphones?  Less than tuition from one kid in the class.  Where is the innovation?  And I'm sorry, in person jobs require you to be there, so if you don't want to be there, find a job that allows you to be remote.  If this continues, the most innovative online universities are going to kill it and the rest will die.  It's a business and you can't offer an inferior product and charge the same for it.

For anyone still wondering how/why this issue is political, here's yet another example:

LA Teachers Union Demands Defunding Of Police, Medicare-For-All And Ban On New Charter Schools As Conditions For Reopening Schools

https://dailycaller.com/2020/0...ands-reopen-schools/

@baseballhs posted:

It is absolutely ludicrous to me that grocery store employees, restaurant employees, police, medical personnel, can all go back to work but teachers can't?  They get a hall pass?  With a 99% survival rate, we are going to let kids rot at home on computers for a year?  2 years?  There are universities with huge endowments that are going all online because professors want to stay home.  Great, but we don't have to spend our money right, so if it all collapses, so be it?  How hard is it to build a plexiglass type box and give teachers wireless microphones?  Less than tuition from one kid in the class.  Where is the innovation?  And I'm sorry, in person jobs require you to be there, so if you don't want to be there, find a job that allows you to be remote.  If this continues, the most innovative online universities are going to kill it and the rest will die.  It's a business and you can't offer an inferior product and charge the same for it.

My wife's a teacher and I agree with you. Our district has a plan that makes teachers way more safe at school than they are when they are doing their normal activities. The teacher unions are going to try to eat this up though. 

The media and others keep portraying this like we are sending them back without any safety measures in place. This simply isn't true. I keep seeing this stupid social media post directed at Betsy Devos talking about 30 kids per class 5x day. No teacher in FL has seen that in years besides a few electives. Also I'd be shocked if much more than 50% of students are back in the fall. Tons are opting for the virtual option. 

The back to school thing is just another page in the Covid flip chart; flatten the curve, 2 more weeks, save grandma, wait for a vaccine, blah blah blah. 

Yea...... what he said👆

@Smitty28 posted:

For anyone still wondering how/why this issue is political, here's yet another example:

LA Teachers Union Demands Defunding Of Police, Medicare-For-All And Ban On New Charter Schools As Conditions For Reopening Schools

https://dailycaller.com/2020/0...ands-reopen-schools/

 

🤮

@adbono posted:

All this thread is missing is classic commentary by Tim the Enchanter.       

A few more pages and we”re in a Tebow territory. We can blame COVID on Tebow.