@TerribleBPthrower posted:

@TPM what the heck is going on in S FL? Are people there licking hand rails and shopping carts? 

My wife’s uncle in Tampa tested positive yesterday. He’s 65 and pretty healthy. He’s smoked (not tobacco) since he was a teenager. He had the aches and a fever for about 24 hours and is feeling much better but not 100%. 

Well when you have people out of work, what do you do? Hang down at the beach in bars  that not compliant.  That means hundreds of people inside as well as outside. Teens have nothing to do. Hang out in big groups all day.  Over crowded beaches Memorial Day weekend. There wasnt a lot of people protesting as much as other parts of the country, but I am sure that didnt help.

Between the 3 counties about 1700 ages 1-17  sick, 2 have died that I know of.  I was afraid to listen to local news.

I don't want to hear 99% of cases are  totally harmless.

I know you like DeSantis,  but he manipulated  numbers to open up.  

We are ok, we live out west. People obey the rules.  They don't like them, but don't want the alternative. However, doctors are closing up offices and some non essential business closing. 

I don't understand why it has to be one extreme or another.  I was one of the biggest against the extended shutdowns, but there are other reasonable things we can do to slow the spread that doesn't cause major economic disruption and/or hurting our children's futures.  Here is an interesting article about sending kids to schools.

https://www.technologyreview.c...kids-back-to-school/

BTW, one of my kid's baseball coaches got covid and had to go to the Hospital (around 40 and in good health).  I don't think it will knock him out, but it is further evidence that it is really hitting our area hard, which is why I wear a mask myself when out.   I have been told by a local doctor that they have much better treatment plans for it, which I hope is the reason the death rate doesn't seem to be going up now.

@LuckyCat posted:

Well at least you admit you're listening to a dissenting opinion.  That's progress.  I'm not talking about modelers, actually.  That would be another discussion.  For whether face masks are a good idea, or at least a better-safe-than-sorry idea, with the current state of the science, I'll stick with this:

https://www.thelancet.com/jour...(20)31142-9/fulltext

Your views about masks as a healthcare practitioner are in the very small minority.  And you should not be touting your medical credentials on a public board and then insinuating to others that they need not wear masks in indoor public settings.

Happy belated Fourth to you, to!

Really, flaunted my credentials?  No I did not, you know very well that JCG asked for my credentials, so I answered.  Then you used that response at an attempt to impugn me by asking me to "opine" on a newspaper article.  You  called it "science based", but it wasn't even close.  Perhaps you just didn't like my answer, and that is fine.

I have no interest in the sort of back-handed name calling that you want to invoke.    I prefer to present evidence.  So here is another abstract from another peer reviewed article in the British Medical Journal on public use of facemasks for respiratory illness back in 2015. 

Bottom line, no clinical data to suggest masks work in preventing respiratory illness, and no instruction to the public on proper use.  Neither of those things has changed in the last 5 years, or the last 3 months.

You can keep believing, or you can educate yourself and start to know.

@RJM posted:

Re Outliers

Pythagoras determined Earth is round in 600 BC. It took 300 years for educated people to accept it.  It took 2,000 years for his theory to be generally accepted by the public.

Its interesting how quickly some people lashed back at the article Pedal presented. It’s easier to lash out than be forced to research and think through the possibility of a conflicting theory. Face it, COVID isn’t medical. It’s political. And too many people are locked in. 

 

The reason so many people misunderstand so many issues is not that these issues are so complex, but that people do not want a factual or analytical explanation that leaves them emotionally unsatisfied.

- Thomas Sowell

 

I love Thomas Sowell.  One of the absolute best.  Here is another.

The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling.

― Thomas Sowell

Well, that's a better article, in that it's a published study.  Or lack of study.  The abstract you posted only says that there has been no science about this, and that was in 2015.  Fine.  Now there is science.  I've posted these before, did you read them?

https://community.hsbaseballwe...25#62544320942147525

@James G posted:

Flatten the curve for a few weeks to....eliminate the virus to....just wait 2 more weeks to....must wear a mask, and now that deaths aren't skyrocketing it's...now we don't know the lingering effects it may have...

The goal posts always shift

Another reason the strict lockdown and masks may not work? I believe close to 300 worldwide doctors have written to the WHO with evidence that this is much more airborne than originally revealed. If so it's useless to try and completely stop this as there is no way possible now. (Completely stop it is different than handle it as best we can). 

We have never stopped the world for anything else before with a less than an average to below 1% fatality rate. Why have we done so now? Very curious. 

Clock will be ticking before most of the public and parents realize the children's futures will be greatly altered for years to come, it's not just a temporary thing, and the tide will shift at that point. 

For the best statistical coverage on what's really happening with numbers follow the Bad Cat and Ethical Skeptic on Twitter

(@boriquagato): https://twitter.com/boriquagato?s=09

 (@EthicalSkeptic): https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic?s=09a

I think it’s sad that you are so willing to just give up and let the virus and all the political crap around us beat us. Americans fight to defend the least among us. We use all the tools at our disposal to win. We are willing to do whatever it takes, even wear a mask or forgo a baseball tournament  

Not sure why you are willing to sacrifice our friends aNd neighbors to something we could beat if we just work at it. I think the only way my kids have any future is if we battle this thing together. 

I realize you’ve already surrendered. Please get out of the way of those of us who have not. 

This fits both our conversation and it has to do with baseball — came from our hs baseball teams web site. Sums it all up to me. 

Surrender? What do you mean? My idea of giving up is succumbing to the pointless lockdowns and restrictions that greatly reduced quality of life for all (education, social/emotional well being, wealth, etc). That's what I'm fighting for by trying to voice and take action with local legislature and politicians. And why do we continually talk about sacrificing people? Nobody is sacrificing anybody at all. If you believe there are people that under any circumstances should not come into contact with the virus, then you do that. You isolate and quarantine them as much as they desire to do so. For everyone else, they are free to live their lives as they see fit. My stance doesn't change- individual health is in the hands of the individual. Under no situation is your health in the hands of someone else. Why do I need to get out of the way? I'm trying to fight for myself and the many who also share a similar mindset. I'm fairly confident within 2-3 years most will be on the same page once they see how much we are destroying our children's way of life. And I'm even comfortable with that still coming to fruition if we all wear a mask for the next 2-3 years straight. It won't matter, so we better start figuring out how to live normally again now. Not the new normal, or the abnormal, the normal we know. 

@anotherparent posted:

Well, that's a better article, in that it's a published study.  Or lack of study.  The abstract you posted only says that there has been no science about this, and that was in 2015.  Fine.  Now there is science.  I've posted these before, did you read them?

https://community.hsbaseballwe...25#62544320942147525

I was not looking for your approval, just presenting a meta-analysis of mask wearing for prevention of respiratory illness.   The last study that I posted was peer reviewed and published as well.  Not sure why you didn't pick up on that.

The list you presented (with the exception of one article from nature) is not medical publication.  Eight of the nine are either news articles or something not in the Pubmed database (that means they don't count).  I did read the one in Nature it is a very crude experiment and does not have the strength of a meta-analysis.  Still it's there, so I'll give you credit for going 1 for 9.  

JamesG, those are great posts. 

There are a lot of us tired of people wanting to either see our freedoms stripped or see increased death and sickness just to prove they were right.  I'm looking at you Fauci.

No death is good, but the death numbers continue to come down (254 and 251, the last two days) despite the spikes, which also came down 20% over the past 2 days. 

How much longer do we want to halt our institutions of learning, our economies, and our way of life.  It is time we stop shifting.  The curve has flattened, hospital systems are not over-run, and unfortunately it is time to learn to live with Covid-19.

One death is one death too many is a nice feeling. It would be great if it were true. But it’s nothing but a cliche.

Too many people don’t understand even the government has acceptable levels of death. We live with this acceptance every day when we walk out the door, get in a car, cross the street, etc.. Otherwise, all speed limits would be 15 mph.

There would be bridged crosswalks over every street. When there’s a vaccine some people will have a reaction and die. It doesn’t mean no one should try the vaccine. Everyday life is about playing the odds whether you believe it or not. 

Sorry to be harsh. But life is full of harsh realities. 

wow, what a weekend...some of you good intentioned folks really need to do more drinking!!! 

People die, that is what they do. it isn't going to stop...doesn't matter how you feel about it. 

The country is past stopping, they are done with it, again your feelings are not relevant because we need to live. People with about an ounce of common sense know that individuals need to protect themselves...end of conversation.

the tide never stops, there are is a new crop of college grads looking to start careers, new HS grads moving to school, new kindergarten kids waiting for September... you can't stop, you will be run over from behind, you do the best you can and keep moving...you can stop being a pussy.

Give me any place, organization, team, church or whatever that stops operating for the good of 1% or maybe 2% of the organization? They don't exist...because it is a stupid idea and not possible. 

Grow up folks. now I really need to get some work before 9 because I am taking off the rest of the day to go look at some vacation homes!! 

@RJM posted:

One death is one death too many is a nice feeling. It would be great if it were true. But it’s nothing but a cliche.

Enough with the gaslighting, where is the math to show that 1%?

Flatten the curve, give us time to figure out how to care for the sick, get testing in place.

@TPM posted:

Enough with the gaslighting, where is the math to show that 1%?

TPM - There was a link to a study done by the WHO in the NY Times yesterday that was posted in this thread.  It states the death rate for Covid cases is .64%.   That is below 1%.  I commented on it as to why that number is likely even overstated.   Just this morning Scott Gottlieb said that by his estimates only 1 in 12 Covid cases are being captured.  The ones not caught are very mild or asymptomatic.  If .64% is for only those Covid cases that are diagnosed the death rate is significantly lower than .64%.  I don't understand why you think this is gaslighting, it's out there and pretty much agreed upon by all experts.

@TPM posted:

Well when you have people out of work, what do you do? Hang down at the beach in bars  that not compliant.  That means hundreds of people inside as well as outside. Teens have nothing to do. Hang out in big groups all day.  Over crowded beaches Memorial Day weekend. There wasnt a lot of people protesting as much as other parts of the country, but I am sure that didnt help.

Between the 3 counties about 1700 ages 1-17  sick, 2 have died that I know of.  I was afraid to listen to local news.

I don't want to hear 99% of cases are  totally harmless.

I know you like DeSantis,  but he manipulated  numbers to open up.  

We are ok, we live out west. People obey the rules.  They don't like them, but don't want the alternative. However, doctors are closing up offices and some non essential business closing. 

I saw a Miami Beach official say people aren't listening. Hopefully they start to use common sense soon. 

We had our first out of state tournament this past week at Lakepoint. Tournaments in FL were great and people weren't necessarily wearing masks, but they kept their distance. GA was the opposite. Zero masks besides workers and it was tough to find ways to keep your distance from others. 

@TPM posted:

Enough with the gaslighting, where is the math to show that 1%?

Good fact check article on the CDC's very low estimate of death rates.  Just give this a quick read.

https://www.usatoday.com/story...ate-0-26/5269331002/

@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:

Good fact check article on the CDC's very low estimate of death rates.  Just give this a quick read.

https://www.usatoday.com/story...ate-0-26/5269331002/

Thanks.  I appreciate the data you bring without going overboard on opinion.  I would argue the true death rate is probably closer to 0.5% from what I have seen, but I also think that death rate must be lower now due to better treatments.  There is no way to justify how cases are skyrocketing and deaths are relatively stable and low.  It has been long enough since cases have gone up that if it was like the beginning, deaths should have trended up more.  Something is happening, but I don't understand it.

On another note, if we can treat it better now, it would mean the original lockdowns may have been a good idea and probably saved tens of thousands of lives.

Dr. Gottlieb's full transcript:

"DR. GOTTLIEB: Well, I think right now we're where we were when New York City was having its peak epidemic. If you look back, when New York City peaked we had about 34,000 cases a day. At the time, we were probably diagnosing one in 20 infections. So that meant we were having 700,000 new infections a day. Right now, we're gonna have about 60,000 infections a day. This week, maybe we'll reach 75,000 or get close to it. We're probably diagnosing one in 12 infections. CDC said one in 10 a few weeks ago. It's probably one in 12 now because we're falling behind. That means we have about 700,000 infections a day nationally. So we're right back where we were at the peak of the epidemic during the New York outbreak. The difference now is that we really had one epicenter of- of spread when New York was going through its hardship, now we really have four major epicenters of spread: Los Angeles, cities in Texas, cities in Florida, and Arizona. And Florida looks to be in the worst shape. And Georgia is heating up as well, and that's concerning.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The president has tweeted yesterday that the media is focused too much on these growing number of cases, and he is making the point that deaths and the all important mortality rate is going down, and we're not hearing enough about that. How do you understand what is happening with deaths and mortality?

DR. GOTTLIEB: Well, we need to separate the number of deaths going down from the actual case fatality rate, how lethal is this? The case fatality rate is going down, although we're not able to measure it right now because we're able to save more people who are hospitalized and get critically ill because of advances in care. The number of deaths has gone down because the number of infections went down for a period of time. And more of the new infections right now are in younger people. And we're protecting more vulnerable populations like people in nursing homes. But the total number of deaths is going to start going up again as the number of hospitalizations starts to spike again. So we're going to see deaths creep up. And I wouldn't be surprised in the next two weeks to see deaths go over a thousand. That doesn't mean the case fatality rate, the actual death rate isn't declining. But when you have more infections, even if the death rate is declining, you're going to get more deaths tragically. So if we cut the death rate in half, if we make this half less lethal than it was, but we double the number of infections, we're going to get more deaths. And I think we're going to start to see that. So we shouldn't just focus on the crude mortality rate, the number of deaths to tell the story of what's happening medically. Medically, we are improving. But we just have so much infection around this country, we're going to see, unfortunately, a lot of lethality.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So when the president said of the increase in cases that 99% of which are totally harmless, is he confused?

DR. GOTTLIEB: Well, I'm not really sure what he's referring to. He might be referring to the number of people who get hospitalized based on the number of people who get infected, which is probably less than five percent when you count all the asymptomatic infection and infection in young people that might not be- be getting diagnosed. But certainly more than 1% of people get serious illness from this. About 60% of people who get infected become symptomatic. About 10 to 15% of them will develop some form of COVID pneumonia and somewhere around two to 5% might get hospitalized, depending on what the age mix is of- of the people who are getting infected. So this is still a pretty bad virus. What we're able to do is when people do get hospitalized and get into the ICU, we're able to save more lives with treatments like remdesivir, with steroids now, which has a big impact on mortality, and innovations in care like using blood thinners on patients and not incubating them as aggressively.

DR. GOTTLIEB: So that is going to cut the death rate."

we are definitely treating it better and have learned much from the last few months.  we have several therapeutics and evolving treatment protocols now that are helping.  And with all the vaccine candidates being developed actively recruiting patients into their trials, many of the new cases are effectively being treated with a potential vaccine.  

Let me just add it's great to see people trading data, observations and stories here like adults - so much of the national conversation on other social platforms is a cesspool of vitriol and anger. This place is good for the soul.

@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:

Good fact check article on the CDC's very low estimate of death rates.  Just give this a quick read.

https://www.usatoday.com/story...ate-0-26/5269331002/

The CDC and Prevention confirmed a 0.2% death rate from COVID 19 is fact checked as partly false. I didnt see the NYT article, only RJMs quote to me and no response when I asked him to prove the 1% death rate.  

Dr. Gottlieb stated he really wasn't sure what the president was referring to, neither did anyone else, obviously. Certainly,  more than 1% get seriously ill.  

@TPM posted:

The CDC and Prevention confirmed a 0.2% death rate from COVID 19 is fact checked as partly false. I didnt see the NYT article, only RJMs quote to me and no response when I asked him to prove the 1% death rate.  

Dr. Gottlieb stated he really wasn't sure what the president was referring to, neither did anyone else, obviously. Certainly,  more than 1% get seriously ill.  

To be fair, to me, your math comment really seemed to be related to deaths and there are just too many studies showing it well under 1% to really argue about it.  Well, I won't argue about it. However your comment "A claim of 99% of cases being totally harmless is totally ridiculous" is likely correct, at least from my perspective.   In the post above, of the Gottlieb transcript from this am, he says 2-5% get hospitalized.  I wouldn't call hospitalizations harmless.  A lot of the disagreements on this site come from people starting with different baselines.  In this example the baseline of harmless. I mean what is harmless.  Some may call any symptom harmful.  

@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:

To be fair, to me, your math comment really seemed to be related to deaths and there are just too many studies showing it well under 1% to really argue about it.  Well, I won't argue about it. However your comment "A claim of 99% of cases being totally harmless is totally ridiculous" is likely correct, at least from my perspective.   In the post above, of the Gottlieb transcript from this am, he says 2-5% get hospitalized.  I wouldn't call hospitalizations harmless.  A lot of the disagreements on this site come from people starting with different baselines.  In this example the baseline of harmless. I mean what is harmless.  Some may call any symptom harmful.  

The thing people who pooh pooh the number of cases don't take into consideration is each case has a cost.

For some people, it may be time off work that, if they're lucky, is paid. If they don't have time off, they may decide they have to go to work so they can eat.

For others it may require hospitalization, which at the minimum requires a co-pay of some kind and may end up with the individual paying a great deal out of pocket, to say nothing of the fact that they are out of work during that time. See above note on paid or unpaid sick leave.

For some people, the impact of the disease goes on with further treatment and rehabilitation needed for lung problems. We have no idea what the ultimate effect of that will be.

In short, every case of corona means we are spending money on stuff we don't want to spend it on. No case is harmless although certainly many are not lethal.

@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:

To be fair, to me, your math comment really seemed to be related to deaths and there are just too many studies showing it well under 1% to really argue about it.  Well, I won't argue about it. However your comment "A claim of 99% of cases being totally harmless is totally ridiculous" is likely correct, at least from my perspective.   In the post above, of the Gottlieb transcript from this am, he says 2-5% get hospitalized.  I wouldn't call hospitalizations harmless.  A lot of the disagreements on this site come from people starting with different baselines.  In this example the baseline of harmless. I mean what is harmless.  Some may call any symptom harmful.  

My math comment came from RJMs response after I posted what the president said regarding the increase in cases that 99% are totally harmless. I said it was a ridiculous comment, he commented to that in a short post that "its not until you do the math and discover only less than 1% are dying".

I asked him to show me those numbers, but he never responded. Then you showed me  the CDC article. But I never brought up deaths originally, I only brought up that the statement was ridiculous. You can go back to find it if you wish.

I think we can agree that most people would consider any symptom of this disease harmful. 

Hope that I explained that fairly to you. I appreciate the time that you take to explain your statements, with info, instead of just throwing stuff out there with no back up.

if each case is "harmful" and has a cost, is it also true that each closed business, school, and lost job has a cost as well?  I think many people that "pooh pooh" the number of cases do understand that each case has a cost, or potential cost, but also realize that the ramifications for preventing cases, in their opinion, often carry a greater cost.  

@GloFisher posted:

if each case is "harmful" and has a cost, is it also true that each closed business, school, and lost job has a cost as well?  I think many people that "pooh pooh" the number of cases do understand that each case has a cost, or potential cost, but also realize that the ramifications for preventing cases, in their opinion, often carry a greater cost.  

I think this is where we venture into a chicken and egg situation.

I have a group of 10 friends who pre-COVID would meet twice a week and probably each of us would drop about $50 in food and beverages at one local restaurant per visit. The restaurant is now open but no one wears masks and they don't do a great job enforcing social distancing. So we don't go. That's close to $1,000 a week that they are losing because it's important to the owner (a relative of ours) that his servers are free to choose whether to wear a mask.

Which comes first, businesses being able to reopen and operate as usual, or preventing cases so people are comfortable going to those businesses? I think it's making people comfortable to go there, which means prevention. If we had truly shut down for those weeks in March and April and maintaining smart processes in May and June, like requiring masks and enforcing social distancing, we might be fully reopening now.

Instead, a lot of us are still choosing to be at home. My husband is 68 and he and I run a business together in which we are the only employees. We can't afford to get sick. The cost of that illness would probably put us under.

Because of the rising numbers in cases here, people have stopped going out to restaurants and visiting non essential services.  Many bars and restaurants hurt themselves by not being compliant.  The list grows longer each day of businesses that have been fined, ranging from 100 to 1500 and closed down.

My husband is supposed to have elective surgery on Thursday.  He had his COVID test today to enter the Cleveland Clinic on Thursday.  Now they might want to postpone due to rising cases and he has to quarantine for 2 weeks.  He has severe asthma so there is a concern. At this point they may wait until cases become fewer. That is a loss of income to the hospital.

Did anyone see Sean Doolittle's press conference?  I was not ever a huge Doolittle fan but I agree with the points he made and probably he isnt the only player who feels this way. These guys are willing to play under difficult circumstances, but obviously they feel that fans aren't doing their part.  He says, "Sports are a reward for a functioning society", something we are not at this point in time, obviously.  He asks for everyone to help, if they want baseball, wear a mask and social distance, and wash your hands. Also speaking out, Mike Trout, Buster Posey. 

Nick Cordero passed yesterday at 41. He spent 95 days in a hospital with complications from COVID.

There I changed it back to baseball for y'all.

Most of all I appreciate you saying y’all! 

I’m not buying these players public service announcements blaming the public. A large number of players haven’t been doing any of these things. They should get buy-in from the players before lecturing the fans

@adbono posted:

Most of all I appreciate you saying y’all! 

Well I do live in the South (Florida), but still have my Joisey accent!

We went to a Northwoods game Saturday night. Fourth of July (my son started and went four innings, gave up a home run, but enough about baseball). Attendance was capped at 980, although stadium capacity is 5,000. We were surprised at the number of people wearing masks, although most people took them off once they got seats, which really didn't bug me a ton since the seats were pretty well separated. And it was 90-plus.

After the game, my daughter went to find my son to let him know where to come to hi. She reported that he was the only player in the dugout wearing a mask. I made him use hand sanitizer before giving me a hug, but I couldn't resist the chance to hug my kid.

We can do this--we just have to take it seriously and be smart about it.

@TPM posted:

Enough with the gaslighting, where is the math to show that 1%?

That you even asked wasn’t worth replying. Do the math. I’ve checked out. People are locked in. Facts and statistics don’t matter.

@RJM posted:

That you even asked wasn’t worth replying. Do the math. I’ve checked out. People are locked in. Facts and statistics don’t matter.

Then why bring it up now? 

@Pedaldad posted:

I was not looking for your approval, just presenting a meta-analysis of mask wearing for prevention of respiratory illness.   The last study that I posted was peer reviewed and published as well.  Not sure why you didn't pick up on that.

The list you presented (with the exception of one article from nature) is not medical publication.  Eight of the nine are either news articles or something not in the Pubmed database (that means they don't count).  I did read the one in Nature it is a very crude experiment and does not have the strength of a meta-analysis.  Still it's there, so I'll give you credit for going 1 for 9.  

It’s unfortunate that some do not understand that difference between a scholarly research article and opinion pieces written by scholars and non scholars. 

I know as soon as I ask if anyone saw the article in the NYT, some of you will stop reading, but. . . did anyone see the article in the NYT on Sweden today? Here's the link https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0...&pgtype=Homepage

To summarize — Sweden kept its economy open. Per million people, their death rate (while a relatively small number of 5,420) is 40 percent higher per million people than ours. Their economy is expected to contract at a rate of 4.5% compared to Denmark, which did a lock down and is expected to contract at a rate of 4.1%.

Danes cut their spending by 29% between mid-March and mid-April. Swedes cut theirs by 25%, despite having an open economy. 

Back to my point — people will go out and spend money if and when they feel safe. Making us feel that way needs to be our priority.

@Iowamom23 posted:

I know as soon as I ask if anyone saw the article in the NYT, some of you will stop reading, but. . . did anyone see the article in the NYT on Sweden today? Here's the link https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0...&pgtype=Homepage

To summarize — Sweden kept its economy open. Per million people, their death rate (while a relatively small number of 5,420) is 40 percent higher per million people than ours. Their economy is expected to contract at a rate of 4.5% compared to Denmark, which did a lock down and is expected to contract at a rate of 4.1%.

Danes cut their spending by 29% between mid-March and mid-April. Swedes cut theirs by 25%, despite having an open economy. 

Back to my point — people will go out and spend money if and when they feel safe. Making us feel that way needs to be our priority.

Have you seen any of the numbers for retail recently? I’d say the country doesn’t have any issues spending money right now. 

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Have you seen any of the numbers for retail recently? I’d say the country doesn’t have any issues spending money right now. 

Online retail sales are thru the roof, stand alone stores and malls are not doing well, retail stores are giving things away. 

People are spending money on necessities.  And many people are being evicted, have to go to food banks daily.

Back to my point — people will go out and spend money if and when they feel safe. Making us feel that way needs to be our priority.

So, let’s open up. Those who feel safe can go where they want to go. Those who don’t feel safe can stay home until they feel safe. It’s freedom of choice. 

I don’t understand the “you’re going to infect others if you go out” attitude. The only people that might infect me, or vice versus are those who are out because they accept the risk. Those telling us not to go out aren’t out. 

I’ve now dined out twenty three times (eighteen lunch/five dinner) times since 6/1. I’ve been in Home Depot four times. The only time I’ve been remotely concerned was this last weekend when a person spit on me for having a Blue Lives Matter sticker on my bike. From a health standpoint I’m not losing any sleep a person spit on me.

On this site we talk a lot about be concerned about what you can control. If anyone is afraid to go out it can be controlled by not going out. Just don’t try to control me.

I’m up front with my friends on where I’ve been. Even my friends who were paranoid from March to May have had enough. When I’m in the grocery store I make an effort to stay six feet away from everyone. 

@TPM posted:

Online retail sales are thru the roof, stand alone stores and malls are not doing well, retail stores are giving things away. 

People are spending money on necessities.  And many people are being evicted, have to go to food banks daily.

Brick and mortar retail has been down long before Covid. Covid was the nail in the coffin. My point to Iowamom is people are spending money. People are going to restaurants and spending money. 

I’ve been to 2 different malls and both required masks to enter stores and had limits on numbers of shoppers. People aren’t spending money on brick and mortar retail because they don’t feel safe, they aren’t spending that money because they switched a long time ago to Amazon and online shopping.