How will you teach hitting?

Coach B25
Another job opportunity - gone.

Personally - I am thinking about switching to a rope ladder - and a thick padded mat - so when I hit the ground - it wont hurt so much.

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Pujols hands start moving just about the time his front heel hits the ground. Why? because that is when his mind (timing) says to let them go. They then aggressively help move the barrel towards the ball. The hips help do a couple of things. 1. they rotate to help with power. 2. They rotate out of the way so the hands can make an aggressive palm up palm down move and get the barrel going towards the ball.

The feet, shoulders, legs etc. also play their parts in the swing.

Is there anyone here that thinks that the hands are just along for the ride in the swing and that they provide no power to the swing?

You see exactly what I see. While that movement isn't "big" it is there as I see it. BE CAREFUL, LINEAR MAY WANT YOUR BOSSES TO FIRE YOU.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

Is there anyone here that thinks that the hands are just along for the ride in the swing and that they provide no power to the swing?

Please count me in for a resounding NO.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Coach B25
Another job opportunity - gone.

Personally - I am thinking about switching to a rope ladder - and a thick padded mat - so when I hit the ground - it wont hurt so much.

LOL

Just took my step ladder back to the garage. No chance for me to get above that first runge. Hopeless all is hopeless. GUESS I'LL HAVE TO USE AN ESCALATOR. lol!

Just trying to get CoachB25 to acknowledge that Pujols hands do not start his swing as he said earlier. He claims they move first.

You are right, scout. They start to move about the time the heel hits the ground which is about 5 frames into his rotation. And the barrel hasn't moved much at all until the rotation starts.

So, where is all the arm action that TomG and Swingbuster and CoachB25 believe in?

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25
...You see exactly what I see. While that movement isn't "big" it is there as I see it. BE CAREFUL, LINEAR MAY WANT YOUR BOSSES TO FIRE YOU.

You are such a suck up. What happened to they move prior to rotation? Now you say they move at heel drop. Which is about 5 frames after rotation begins.

And, I'm not after anyones job. But, it would be nice if people would recognize the state of high school baseball coaching.

I think some of it has been exposed here.

Didn't say that the hands start the swing. Again, you have our hitting sheet since I'm sure that you copied it. It states that the upper body moves as a unit. Earlier I also stated, "Linear, those arms DO move in that clip. They don't stay fixed in one position with the body! They move forward and then the trunk joins in." I do not believe that anywhere in here it says that I said that the hands went first, in relationship to the whole swing. Here is an interesting question. If the hands move in conjunction with the whole upper body in load, then are the hands moving? LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
...They move forward and then the trunk joins in.

That would be first to me.

I may have fallen off the ladder - laying on the ground - crushed by both CoachB and TR - but at least I answered the question. LOL



I need some Advil

Linear, be care of the name calling. You TOOL you. LOL! bbscout, he can't answer questions with answers only questions with other statements or name calling and he said he won.

Boyz, this has been fun and Linear too. Have to go corrupt some more youth. This time my kid. She can't hit either. LOL!

BYW, Happy New Year to Everyone! May 2006 bring you all much happiness and health.

I just edited this post for spelling and made a mistake.

No desire to change anything. But, I'm retyping from memory. Please add what I forget.

In the high level swing that we all strive to achieve, yes, the hands are along for the ride. The swing we want and hope to take against the pitch we're expecting will have the hands along for the ride.

Check out the Pujols clip. Hands are along for the ride. Check out frames 9 -13. Hands maintain their same relationship to the body. All the way to contact.

I've always said more strength is better than less strength. But, hand strength has nothing to do with executing a high level swing.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

I've always said more strength is better than less strength. But hand strength has little to do with executing the perfect high level swing.

Linear - IMO - You are getting there - in small increments.

Now - what about wrist and arm strength?

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Linear, I use frame by frame just like you and many others. What you are watching is a guy (Pujols) who is using his hips,legs, back, shoulders and hands to his best advantage.

What I would like you to try is this....set balls on a tee at your local field and hit as many as you would like until you feel that you have hit your best bolt. Measure how far the ball goes. Then take your top or bottom hand off the bat completely and hit as many balls as you want and then measure how far the ball goes using only one hand in the swing.

The distance measured between the two will not even be remotely close.

That is a totally riduculous experiment that has nothing to do with what the hands offer in a swing.

That being said, you and I both know a guy who can hit the ball 250'+ off a T, with his lead arm only.

That's pretty sporty. And the hands have nothing to do with it.

And, as this guy says, you have to "become one" with the bat. You and the bat are one unit. And, there is one move to the ball by that "one" unit.

The hands are not given any specific role. They are part of the "whole". They have their role just like everything else....to glue everything together into one. But, you'll never have a high level swing until your entire body works as one.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
It would only be ridiculous to someone who was deathly afraid that it would mess up their belief system.

It's not ridiculous to someone who has little understanding of how the body works as a unit.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

The hands are not given any specific role. They are part of the "whole". They have their role just like everything else....to glue everything together into one. But, you'll never have a high level swing until your entire body works as one.

You need strong glue.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
George Brett could hit the ball close to 300 feet with a full swing off a tee. If you can find a guy who uses only his lead arm and swings a standard 34" 31 oz wood bat and says he can hit the ball 250 feet on the fly, I will show up with some cash to bet. I am not talking about the phony "V" grip. I am talking about a one hand swing with the other hand not touching the bat from start to finish.

I'll get back to you.

You add "on the fly". I know what I've been told but I don't know whether it was on the fly or after roll. Either way, if it's true it's VERY strong.

And, I'll check the V grip thing but I believe it is not involved.

Talking about the glue and the parts and creating "one". That is exactly what ALL of the body parts do. And, if you have a strength deficit in any part, your whole isn't as good. So, strength overall is important.

But, I have to tell you about my mattress. Several years ago for Christmas I bought these "Sleep number" mattresses for our family. They are wonderful.

But, I wasn't home when they were delivered and the left everything in my front yard.......In long narrow boxes that resembled 2 X 12's about 8 feet long.

Well, I took them inside and started assembling the parts.

I thought I got took. The boxes (used to be box springs) were made of very very light plastic material and looked very weak. Flimsey even. However, when you put them together as a unit, they are strong as hell.

The hands play their role in creating a very strong box. They do not go to the ball. They do not swing the bat. They, along with the arms and shoulders provide connection of the bat to the rotating body. When done right, they do so with no slack or slop.

Similar to my mattress, the parts come together to form a strong unit. Breaking the unit by moving the arms and letting them go on their own, greatly weakens the whole.

As you know, I own a business that involves customers that like to gamble.

Story is a guy in Wisconsin bet someone he could hit a golf ball over 1000 yards in one stroke.

Well, when the money got right he took them to Lake Michigan in January and he hit the ball over the ice and it may still be going.

Similar story, different twist.

quote:

Where is the "arm action" in this swing?

Linear,
Arm and action on PUJOLS

Lead elbow begins down close to body, rear elbow moves higher causing the bat to be splitting helmet( or higher on some swings) as bottom hand works under top hand on load.

NOW

The the reverse happens, bat tip accelerates backwards as bat barrel plane changes down toward the 45 slot as hands begin to flatten . Lead elbow works up into plane of the pitch and rear elbow works down to slot AFTER the hips begin rotation.

This is arm and hands action....starting in the 45 slot , pushing the shoulder back starting and staying in the 45 slot is no arm and hand action i. e. Gongalez, Olerud.

Ny*** posted a clip of Pujols swearing it..bat tipping/plane change( arm and hand action) was not happening in a HR derby. He posted the clip starting it after the tipping of the bat which was more exaggerated in the derby than is a game swing for all of them . Why , because they can get more bat speed
( prelaunch torque) Mankin . He left several frames out to prove his incorrect point of view. Thats when I knew he would go to any lengths to be right. I watched the HR derby and saw most of the players including Pujols do it about 100 times

A slightly different twist.

I can assure you that Mr. Pujols would prefer to have his hands,wrists and forearms as opposed to those of Dal Maxvill or Bud Harrelson.

quote:
Where is the "arm action" in this swing?



Linear,
Arm and action on PUJOLS

Lead elbow begins down close to body, rear elbow moves higher causing the bat to be splitting helmet( or higher on some swings) as bottom hand works under top hand on load.

NOW

The the reverse happens, bat tip accelerates backwards as bat barrel plane changes down toward the 45 slot as hands begin to flatten . Lead elbow works up into plane of the pitch and rear elbow works down to slot AFTER the hips begin rotation.

This is arm and hands action....starting in the 45 slot , pushing the shoulder back starting and staying in the 45 slot is no arm and hand action i. e. Gongalez, Olerud.

Ny*** posted a clip of Pujols swearing it..bat tipping/plane change( arm and hand action) was not happening in a HR derby. He posted the clip starting it after the tipping of the bat which was more exaggerated in the derby than is a game swing for all of them . Why , because they can get more bat speed
( prelaunch torque) Mankin . He left several frames out to prove his incorrect point of view. Thats when I knew he would go to any lengths to be right. I watched the HR derby and saw most of the players including Pujols do it about 100 times
Posts: 424 | Location: Selma, Alabama | Registered: November 16, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

quote:

Where is the "arm action" in this swing?

Linear,
Arm and action on PUJOLS

Lead elbow begins down close to body, rear elbow moves higher causing the bat to be splitting helmet( or higher on some swings) as bottom hand works under top hand on load.

NOW

quote:

The the reverse happens, bat tip accelerates backwards as bat barrel plane changes down toward the 45 slot as hands begin to flatten . Lead elbow works up into plane of the pitch and rear elbow works down to slot AFTER the hips begin rotation.


This is arm and hands action....starting in the 45 slot , pushing the shoulder back starting and staying in the 45 slot is no arm and hand action i. e. Gongalez, Olerud.

No this is not hand and arm action. Scap load and rotation cause it.

quote:

Ny*** posted a clip of Pujols swearing it..bat tipping/plane change( arm and hand action) was not happening in a HR derby. He posted the clip starting it after the tipping of the bat which was more exaggerated in the derby than is a game swing for all of them . Why , because they can get more bat speed
( prelaunch torque) Mankin . He left several frames out to prove his incorrect point of view. Thats when I knew he would go to any lengths to be right. I watched the HR derby and saw most of the players including Pujols do it about 100 times

First of all, HR derby swings are not the equivalent of game swings.

Secondly, I have acknowledged and so has N Y M A N that Bonds, Sheffield and others have arm action in their swing. N Y M A N has proven that tht does not exist. Your interpretation of his HR derby clips is seriously flawed. Maybe because he has proven that the Hands Back Hitter teaches anything but good swing mechanics?????

I have also written a good post here explaining that that is an "add on" after they learned good connected rotation. I explained the difference between quickness and speed. And that speed without quickness is worthless. And, that there is a trade off by ALL hitters in that they soon realize that they have to 'shorten up' to get the barrel to the ball. This shortening up means little to no arm action. At some point in their trial and error development they have mastered the rotation from the center and they "add on" what they are capable of adding without losing quickness.

But, for you or anyone else to use 'arm action' theory as a viable hitting theory is completely destructive to young amateurs. As I said in that other post. They may have immediate gains at their current level of competition. But, as they go up the food chain, the arm action hitting will be their demise.

In this particular clip of Pujols, that you claim shows arm action, there is none. None by your terms, the cocking and tipping the bat and then changing it the other direction by the hands and arms.

What Pujols does, is load his scap and then rotate. There is no arm action that you like to claim. Watch the scap load. Pay attention to where the bat head is at the height of his scap load. It is in the fully cocked position. Then, while in that position, the rotationg starts. There is absolutely no arm action that involves tipping and then untipping the bat. the scap load tips it. The rotation untips it. Yes, he lowers his elbow. All hitters have to lower it to swing.

As for the elbow lowering and giving the appearance that the arms are doing something, they are. They are working in conjunction with the players posture to set the swing plane. They are not accelerating the bat. Acceleration of the bat starts and ends with load/unload of the center.

A rear view shows the plane change to be about double what you see on the side view better. There are important missing frames about bat position before his coil

I agree with all you said but deep into the details of the "how to load your scaps". I know that a partially pronated top hand and a barrel out of launch plane toward vertical facilitates the rear elbow internal rotation. The more complete the internal rotation the stroger and more connected the external rotation/ slotting.

Now lets give Mankin some credit here......the bat tip path helps strengthen connection of the lead arm by applying forces in and back to turn against priming the torso. It also helps and insures the inside out path of the hands CHP.

I would bow down to ****** if they would just acknowledge that Mankin has some of this physics right about the upper body.

I edited my above post to say and I'll repeat, tht torque has been proven to not exist by N Y M A N S simulations.

Proven. Nothing to discuss.

Other than how the continuation on the nonsense sets back youth hitters by years.

The movement you see is a simple setting of the swing plane. There is no significant torque that is instrumental in batspeed development. Nothing that helps the hitter be quicker.

It is simply a move that has to be done since the hands start high. You have to get on plane. What you see gets hitters on plane. There is no significant contribution toward bat speed. Proven. Over and over and over and over and yet you and other still talk about it as if it exists.

Swing,

The "theory" has major holes in it. Hence - the selective editing.

He has - IMO - backed himself into a very tight corner.

Its

Further proof that when you're looking to verify your beliefs, instead of searching for the truth, proof and facts are thrown out the window.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:...If the body is working as one, why are the hands holding back for 5 frames of rotation? If they are just along for the ride, why are they not moving? What gets them moving if the center of the body is rotating and they (the hands) are not going anywhere, yet are supposed to be along for the ride?

Well, first of all they aren't holding back. They are loaded back and they are waiting for the energy to flow to them.

Secondly, another example of literal interpretation of something that is true but misinterpreted to support your belief system.

There is very little "separation" between the upper and lower body in hitting. Pitching, yes. The more the better. However, hitting is reactionery. You don't have time for a lot of separation. When you say swing, you'd better swing or the barrel will be late. This is most certainly true.

But, when you watch video you'll see that the lower body does move before the upper body. Too much separation and you have slack or slop that has to be removed.
But, most of this separation you see is the between the upper and lower body. Check out how the upper body works as one.

You surely aren't saying the hips don't lead. Of course they do and I'm sure you agree.

But, watch how the upper body forms the box and how it all turns together........as one. If th e upper body works as one then the arms aren't going off on their own, bleeding energy from the chain.

Be patient scout. I have 5 or 6 asking me questions at a time. I'll get to everyone. I have no reason to avoid anyone.

Linear,

I do like the way you describe the "slop/slack" in the swing - and I think you are 100% correct about that.

As a slight offshoot - it is exactly this "slop/slack" in youth players that has caused me to so adamantly argue against the heavy bag drill.

My assumption is that the students - are students for a reason. They are still learning how to develop an effective swing - and that they do in fact have this "slop/slack" in their swing.

That "slop/slack" and the use of a 200 pound bag of sand and a bat is what concerns me about that drill.

A bit off track - I know. But just wanted to elaborate a bit.

Scout

5 frames is 1/6 of a second.

Ever wonder how a blind works? Yes, a window blind.

All I know is that if I pull on it and release, it winds up pretty quickly.

As does the iron cord. I saw my wife do it once.

What if a tetherball pole had the ability to rotate at a very high rpm? It would yank the cord and wind it around the pole very quickly.

Think you could throw the ball around the pole as fast....

Nope.

And neither can your arms swing a bat as fast as your body can rotate one.

What if the pole had hands? Do you think they would contribute?

Maybe you should think about rotating so fast that the hands have no chance to help.

quote:

There is no significant contribution toward bat speed. Proven. Over and over and over and over and yet you and other still talk about it as if it exists

I agree again that THT ( top hand pulling backwards doesn't happen for me.

The hands **** early insuring the knob comes out to the oppo box...thats hand action

The bottom hand works under the top taking the barrel out of plane in the stride so that at foot plant the plane change takes the bat barrel back, and flatter as the hips engage. This serves to get the hips a few frames ahead. True connect IS GETTING THE HIPS A FEW FRAMES AHEAD or the SHOULDERS A FEW FRAMES BEHIND . This bat barrel moving down to 45 and in behind the head has a force( no doubt). The direction of this force is opposite the hip turn force. THIS HELPS CONNECTION and insures a rotational hand path. CHP that does exist. Without a CHP the only ball you can hit the center of is an inside pitch that you hit early and out front. What pitch can most players hit...you guessed it.

Why do 90% of all golfers slice the ball...they hit the outside of it. Why? they don't know how to position the club at the top to make and inside /out stroke that matches the hip turn. Why don't golf training aids work on lower body turn...because pros have long known that if you are not in the right position at the top then you cannot fix it during the swing no matter how hard you turn. You just slice it farther. Is the slice the real problem...no the lack of power is the problem because you cannot compress a ball hitting the outside part.

quote:

What if a frog had wings?

He wouldnt bump his a$$ every time he jumped..

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

What if a frog had wings?

My guess, the NY Mets would sign the frog to a 3 year deal.

To test your team's hand path and hitting efficiency chart the ball flights at BP. All things equal there should be as many oppo gap power shots as there are pull gap shots in a random group of pitches. Chart the team and tell me how many players hit the center of the back of the ball. That will tell you how many get their bat barrel square to the ball flight vs how many are quick but still dragging the bat. You can stand at the mound and see how many hide their hands at toe touch and learn the same thing.

Linear...I have taught the same thing you say and it works for 90 % as you say. It works better than what they were doing. Would I start a 10 year old of mine doing it again ....no way.

Would I teach the girls softball team that tomorrow or a LL team that I had little time with...you bet.

Us dads want and think our kids can be better than that 90% don't we

Maybe because he has proven that the Hands Back Hitter teaches anything but good swing mechanics?????

Ops missed that punch....

I thought ****** said you need to load and carry/ maintain that load into foot plant. I thought they said to mimimize stride momentum and learn to turn.

Thanks we have done both....and describe that objective in the Assembly Guide and Tips for use.

I get one of these testimonials most days...the HBH must be better than a PlayStation. They play with what we buy. Not too many kids are sitting around watching Hitting CDs or writing on this forum.

"Our son already loves the HBH and I'm hopeful that will motivate him to practice alot at home between camp sessions."

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
I thought N Y M A N said you need to load and carry/maintain that load into foot plant. I thought they said to mimimize stride momentum and learn to turn...

Not really. Never heard him say "maintain that load into foootplant." I've heard him say "rotate into footplant".

And that's difficult to do when you have to wait a long second or two for the ball after footplant.

I'm sure you saw his clip comparing your demonstration of the HBH to a very good hitters game swing.

It's very telling.

BTW, for the record, there is no such thing as a load, as in carry or maintain the load. It is loading or unloading. Nothing in between. For the sake of brevity I may have said something similar. That is why I usually write load/unload together.

quote:

I'm sure you saw his clip comparing your demonstration of the HBH to a very good hitters game swing

Yep and I saw his drills where you rotate with your back foot staying down flat on the ground.

What made that good was that he thought of it..otherwise it seems far from a MLB swing or any other for that matter.

Conclusions...drills don't look like MLB swings. U of GA uses stop and go, walk up drills,and others daily in the offseason.

Lame stuff he post.......in a censored site. You got bumped too ?? Did you go back on bended knee?

"there is no such thing as carry the load "?

Who says what exist...seen Arod long stride...where is the load during this shift?

"And that's difficult to do when you have to wait a long second or two for the ball after footplant." 0.2 sec is shorter than 2.0


Independant thought changes the world...........invented the light bulb...

Linear..tick tick tick

Did he post MLB game swings against Engishbeys 21 drills to teach hitting and say they were doing people harm?

Why?

And why are posting from a site that will not even let you spell his name? wow!