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How will you teach hitting?

L Linear500+ posts
Hey, Swingbuster and Tom.guerry. I got to stand about 5yds away from Albert Pujols taking BP this morning. Just outside the cage.

Eat your heart out.

And, he has no arm action in his swing.

He can really bring it from his center though.

Seriously, I had an appointment with the head basketball coach from Maryville University (St. Louis area) this morning and what do you know, several professional baseball players were working out in their gym. Pujols, Mabry, Benes, Simontacchi, Van Slykes kids....others I didn't recognize.

I wanted to cancel my appointment and watch more.
Last edited by Linear
L Linear500+ posts
There is no question, the quickness of Pujols can not come with any arm action.

Standing right next to a hitter like Pujols is essential for anyone who thinks they are a hitting coach. Until you experience the quickness of the mlb swing by standing right next to it, you can easily settle for something less. You can easily make the wrong decisions. Especially about arm action.

MVP of the National League, a hitter who's first 5 years stats are unmatched by anyone in the history of the game. It was awesome.
L Linear500+ posts
One other thing. It was pretty cool to see Pujols talk to the young guys about their swings. He was teaching as he was waiting for his turn. Very relaxed informal atmosphere. The Van Slyke kids had to love it......almost as much as me. Smile

I overheard him say "It doesn't matter where the bat is. What matters is where my hands are. When I get my hands right here...." And, he would demonstrate by "scap loading" and pelvic loading, although he didn't call it that. He did not work his bottom hand under his top hand or make any mention of using his arms to tip the bat toward the pitcher.

And, he also wanted to "attach the bat to his arm pit and leave it there". Then rotate.
Last edited by Linear
T tom.guerry100+ posts
I would think if the swing is really quick, you would want to catch it on video before deciding what the arms and scaps might be doing when and what he might mean by the hand comments.

The clip you posted earlier is likely representative of his typical mechanics.

-Weight goes forward before hips turn open (golden move,good kind of "hip slide"),then

-hips turn open lead by lead leg turning open,synchronized with back arm etxernally rotating (synchronized external rotation/mapping of back arm and lead leg

This rear arm external rotation action is what is primarily responsible for starting the bat plane transitioning to a more horizontal position,back scap needs to continue loading/pinching at this point to enable sequential middle up coili/uncoil to later drive the shoulder link. Thsi means arm action NOT scap action is "causing" this.

-next,lead arm internal rotation takes over and accelerates the bat back toward the catcher,"working lead elbow up a little","keeping the hands back" as they go "up and over". This action creates a quick final stretch of trunk to allow more efficient uncoiling/reversal(creates efficient "cusp" dynamics) and keeps the hips from overturning prior to unloading.

Good positive move in spite of no (minimal) stride.

Good hand action (via arm and scap action) to avoid "dead hands/no stride".

Hands are able to stay back at arm pit as hips open creating optimum coil dynamics (x-factor stretch) in part because of good arm action/plane transition.Also optimum ability to adjust plane late to match pitch.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
quote:
Originally posted by Linear:


I overheard him say "It doesn't matter where the bat is. What matters is where my hands are. When I get my hands right here...."
And, he also wanted to "attach the bat to his arm pit and leave it there". Then rotate.


Linear, did you think it odd he was talking about hands? I know you're not a proponent of it. Also, I agree that where his hands are is where he wants them "set." I think we discussed this as well. (This is NOT intended to be some snide comeback. Discussion!)

I've also been next to the cage when he has hit. I've been blessed to get to do that a few times. Wow. One of my major problems was that it happened so fast that I was often caught up in the flight of the ball after contact.
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
I overheard him say "It doesn't matter where the bat is. What matters is where my hands are. When I get my hands right here...."


Bottom hand under top pattern in front of rear collar bone....duh!!

causes the bat to be where it is...then plane transition and bat barrel acceleration ..all occurs at his arm pit. Thats why it isn't long and slow.



COACH B25 says

Also, I agree that where his hands are is where he wants them "set." I

I agree , the starting point( set) fosters the hand torque at initiation and movement pattern

Linear says

"And, he would demonstrate by "scap loading" and pelvic loading, although he did not call it that.

Pujols said" what matters is where my hands are ; When I get my hands right here...."
"


SwingBuster on Post 5 said"

Now put the hands stacked almost vertical and close to your right collar bone...



Pujols said "And, he also wanted to "attach the bat to his arm pit and leave it there". Then rotate

SwingBuster page 2 of 35

"start it there and relax your hands and hit". Watch what happens .....

Your honor " I rest my case" Sounds like Linear has met a MLB guy that can break that mental block
Last edited by swingbuster
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
...Linear, did you think it odd he was talking about hands? I know you're not a proponent of it. Also, I agree that where his hands are is where he wants them "set."...


Not at all surprised. For someone who knows how to use his center like he does the ONLY thing left is "how to connect the hands to the rotation."

And, as many know (a few like swingbuster and tom guerry have no clue) getting the hands set in and around the arm pit AND LEAVING THEM THERE is one of the clues to good connection. In his case great connection.

Posture, connection, rotation. That sums it up pretty good. No arm action. No bottom hand working under the top hand. No tipping the bat to the pitcher and then reversing it with the arms/hands.

Up close you can clearly see the scap load, pelvis load and posture is what tips his bat. The hands are silent.
Last edited by Linear
L Linear500+ posts
Swingbuster

When you figure out why he said "it doesn't matter where the bat is" you'll be close to the truth. Then again, you're not interested in the truth.

Because it's not important what the hands do to the bat. What is important is where his hands are and how they get there. All this while he perfectly demonstrates scap loading, pelvic loading and proper posture.

Not once did he demonstrate bottom hand working under top hand. Or tipping the bat to the pitcher. Remember, he doesn't care about where the bat is. The only way to get the bat where you want it is to use the hands. And he doesn't care where the bat is. He wants his hands in their position.....and he does it with scap loading.

As I've said and as he demonstrated, there is no hand action nor arm action in his swing.
Last edited by Linear
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
For someone who knows how to use his center like he does the ONLY thing left is "how to connect the hands to the rotation."


Couldn't have said it better myself linear

The corollary might be my point of view about whats missing from posture, connect, rotate is...the starting position of the hands.

How many times have my descriptions tried to physically describe where they start and how that will effect the outcome of posture, connect, rotate.

Why would he be so insistant about their location if it did not have a huge impact on the quality of HIS rotation.

We can argue why the hand starting location is important from the science angle but as a teaching cue with kids it has absolutely no value. If it works like it does and adults cannot agree on it ; then maybe even rhetoric has no value.

The ONLY thing left is what you left out and what I have been posting about. Put your hand here for a pretty good hitter and the rest( bat path ect) can be a no teach ...it WILL happen with a good rotation... I said "put them there and just hit".

Now can we expand one phrase...

Posture, hand location, connection, rotation.

It could be a good marriage. applaude

OBTW your recent statement

"Up close you can clearly see the scap load, pelvis load and posture is what tips his bat.

Can you reference anywhere in this thread where you previously mentioned the bat tipping can or should exist. The hand location was described over and over and the cause and effect determined to include good scap loading.

You implied that if you knew anything about how to use the core; hand location was a useless consideration. Pujols disagrees.

Pujols measures cause and effect by ball flight. That is what we do with middle tee drills. It is much more convincing to kids and the coach watching the ball flight....the ultimate feedback.

When you cannot hit effortlessly gap to gap off a tee then something is wrong with your swing. Put your hands where Pujols starts and you can ...you can tell us why or I can tell us why...the bottom line...the ball flight will have the last word

enjoy


Pujols

http://www.grandstandsports.com/pages/11822.htm

Hank

http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/aaron/photo5.html
Last edited by swingbuster
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by swingbuster:
...Can you reference anywhere in this thread where you previously mentioned the bat tipping can or should exist. The hand location was described over and over and the cause and effect determined to include good scap loading.

You implied that if you knew anything about how to use the core; hand location was a useless consideration.


You have no intellectual honesty. None.

Your entire premise is arm action. Hand action. Bottom hand working under the top hand. Tipping the bat head toward the pitcher with the hands. In summary, hand/arm movement

That is significantly different than "where to set the hands." Totally different issue. Everyone has to start the hands somewhere. Including hitters using posture, connection and rotation. It is covered rather clearly in the connection stage. Your young hitters will disconnect from rotation 95% of the time because the hand MOVEMENT (not placement) will force them to. The two moves are almost mutually exclusive when learning good rotation. There is a very low percentage of young players who can do your move and stay connected. Next to impossible. Your movement is an Add On to increase batspeed once bat quickness is learned. That is an absolute if there ever was one.

Please reach into your honesty bag and admit that yes I have mentioned bat tipping can or should exist. If fact, I believe your comment after that post by me was........nice post, linear.

Quite frankly all you want to do is muddy the water so you can look a little closer to smart.
Last edited by Linear
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Linear:
There is no dispute that players have different usage of their hands and arms.

The point here is you are teaching it as a "way to hit". A way to improve. Do this and you'll be better.

That is far from the truth.

The reason why a Sheffield or a Bonds or a any other "army" hitters do that is they because they can. They can generate better batspeed by doing so but that doesn't mean you or I can.

The difference is in their center. They already understand how to load/unload their center. They are experts at it. They have perfected it. Their quickness is maxed out. So, they then turn to improving batspeed. Quickness allows you to catch up to all the great pitching. Batspeed adds distance to their hits. They can do that. They are rock solid in their center. They can experiment with adding speed.

The problem is, you and I can't. And neither can 95% or more of the players we encounter. They don't have their center under control. They don't understand the load/unload process. They are not as quick as they need to be.

So, you come along and say "do this with your arms". At their current level of competition and quickness, they have success. They look at you like "wow, that really made a difference." Yet, 2, 3, 5 years down the road in no longer works. The pitching is much faster. The quality of the breaking pitches are much better. The reaction time is greatly diminished. And your students generate really good batspeed but can't get the barrel to the ball because it takes too long for them to launch.

Unless and until they learn connected rotation from their center their "arm action" style of hitting will take them as far as their athletic ability goes. As long as they are "athletically gifted" as much or more than the competition they will be fine.

But, to advance a far as they possibly can, they will need to add "skill" to their athletic ability.

This is why so many "obvious" D-1 stars don't make it very far in professional baseball. They have never added "skill" to their "athletic ability".

This is also why someone like John Olerud, who is known to have the one of the slowest batspeeds in professional baseball, has the success he had. I've heard his batspeed in considerably less than most mlb players. But his "skill" level is very high.

Finally, a good coach is one who knows the difference and won't let the players read his press clippings. The coach who tells a player what he needs to hear versus what he wants to hear is extremely valuable down the road. The problem is all the misinformation and therefore the lack of quality coaching at all levels of baseball.

In this country it is ridiculous how small a percentage of kids that reach the top level of the game. They have been very misguided. In fact, whether one makes it or not is purely chance or "luck of the draw". They "discover" what works purely by chance through their own trial and error. Nothing wrong with trial and error. That's how everyone learns. But, trial and error in this country is set back thousands of hours by things like "arm action" hitting philosophies.

I'm still waiting for video of the hitter.


Please take note.
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Linear:
Just because all the greats didn't think "load/unload the center" or "load my scap" or "set my posture" or "stay connected" that doesn't mean it's not what they were learning to do. In fact, that is exactly where their trial and error process took them. Today, we can shorten that process by paying attention to these "better defined" terms.



This perfectly describes Pujols talk with the "kids" yesterday. He's probably never heard the terms.......yet he demonstrated them perfectly.
T tom.guerry100+ posts
I thought buster also said :

quote:
Originally posted by swingbuster:


Lastly,

I must question the implication that any of todays great hitters perfected the middle and then added upper body arm and hand action as icing on the cake applied at some later date to go to the next level for bat speed.

These is no evidence in the Science of Hitting that Williams supported or suggested a staggered system of learning to hit.

There was no evidence of this in Gwynn's book and I have seen no early Bond footage that their swing was a transitional process training the hips and progressing to include arm and hand action later.

There is no evidence in Dusty Bakers book either

IMO...The reason is that it did not happen that way for any of those guys nor can anybody give any supporting evidence that it did. The first written material supporting the superiority of that teaching style came from you know where. How great a contribution that really will be is still a question for me personally.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Linear,

A question – Do you know for sure that Pujols was talking about the STARTING position of his hands? Is it possible he was referring to where his hands are at contact?

Whether good rotation or not, the hands can not go to the same spot on all pitches. This is what many describe as hitting with their hands and I think it is confused with something else at times.

Overall, I see it like this… 0 strikes – hands end up basically in the same spot all the time, as does the bat. 2 strikes – hands must be able to get to best position to cover entire strike zone. I’m talking about contact point in the good rotational swing. We can call it your rotational swing, but even in your swing, adjustments have to be made.

Only reason I bring this up is because I’ve heard many excellent hitters emphasize the hands much more than the bat! This does not mean these hitters would dispute what you believe. The bat does what the hands tell it to. The hands do what the body tells it to. The body does what the brain and eyes tell it to do. I would say your emphasis is mostly on the body, regarding the swing. I agree with this, but consider the hands an important part of the body.

The hands play the biggest role in any adjustments a hitter has to make. I was in St Louis on opening day 2004. Brewers beat the Cardinals, but Albert Pujols hit a double off my son on a high inside fastball. It was not a text book swing and IMO he did it mostly because of his hands! By the way, it should have been scored an error on the 3B. Smile Went off his glove into the stands (was hit hard).
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Linear,

A question – Do you know for sure that Pujols was talking about the STARTING position of his hands? Is it possible he was referring to where his hands are at contact?...


There is no question he was talking about his starting point....the point he wants the hands in order to launch.

Also, in a good swing at a good pitch the hands don't move much at all through contact.

A swing at a not so good pitch, or if you're fooled, is another story. That is the final "adjustor" that the hitter has. If you've used up this "adjustor" to get to a good pitch, you won't be around long.

First, you won't have enough batspeed.

Second, you won't be able to make adjustments.

The bat gets to the balls location, in a good swing, with posture adjustments.
Last edited by Linear
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
...The hands play the biggest role in any adjustments a hitter has to make.


Disagree. The posture makes the biggest adjustments. The hands make those last second, do or die.....mostly die adjustments.

A good hitter can cover almost the entire strike zone with posture and slight arm adjustments. Up and down is almost entirely a function of posture. In and out is some posture, some arm extension or lack of it. Arms remain bent or "let out a little".
Last edited by Linear
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
In other words the arms and the posture help get the hands where they need to be. It's all the same, just depends on the discription. If you unbend your arms or change placement of hands (isn't it the same thing?) Can't do one without the other.

It seems to me that you understand the role of the hands and arms, but think it's best to concentrate on other areas. I can understand that reasoning.
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
In other words the arms and the posture help get the hands where they need to be. It's all the same...


Yes it's the same with the arms....No with the posture. The arms moving the hands is a completely different issue than the posture moving them. The arms moving the hands has an entirely different effect on the ability to rotate than what the posture does. In fact, moving the posture has little effect on ones ability to rotate. And, in a good swing at a good pitch, the hands/arms barely move. And the movement they do have comes from the forces of the rotation......not independently.
Last edited by Linear
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
Linear writes"

There was NO question he was talking about the starting point....the point he wants the hands in order to launch"

HONESTLY YOU CAN SAY I HAVE NO HONESTY AFTER THE SAME THEME>>>HERE WE GO ROUND IN CIRCLES FOR THIS LONG.... HAND POSITION VS CORE FOCUS OVER AND OVER it is documented 20 times that is what I said.

YOU BROUGHT PUJOL'S POINT OF VIEW TO THE TABLE NOT ME.



He also didn't mention learning the middle and then getting into learning about the hand position later...why?

WHY? his hand position helped him rotate better because he gets inside out( CHP) with bat displacement every swing...it is called consistency....get it...hands start in same place ....not where you might load them to...consistency.... coachable point, still; not moving....



"Put them there and just swing"..stacked...in front of rear collar bone.

Now are you going to take 630 more post to convince us that is what YOU meant all along and Pujols is just another feather in NY-mans cap and his hitting comments support your previous belief system?

Something tells me you will try....
Last edited by swingbuster
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