TR, Good to have you back.
I was trying to convey pretty much what PG did although maybe not as well (mine not as well that is).
To answer your questions.
TR Q: In your mind does the term "accessible" mean they should have meetings after the game?
SBK A: Absolutely not! I said they should arrange an appointment.
TR Q: Does it mean they hold meetings without the AD present?
SBK A: At the coaches discretion but I wouldn’t discourage it or discourage having another coach present any time the coach feels it is necessary. If the conversation even begins to get less than professional the coach should end it immediately.
TR Q: Does "accessible" mean that I am around when we are on weekend trips to explain why we did what in the game? To the point they call me in my hotel room?
SBK A: Only if within reason on a casual positive basis such as at by the pool with a beverage of our choice and certainly no collect calls accepted.
TR Q: Does "accessible" mean my explanation to the young man in question will suffice?
SBK A: It usually does but I would think a coach of a minor should be accessible to their guardian if necessary and of course within reasonable boundaries.
TR Q: Can a coach be a real good coach without being "accessible"?
SBK A: I do not understand why a good coach would want to be inaccessible.
TR Q: Does the term "accessible" defined the same for a HS coach as well as a "select" team coach?
SBK A: Each should permit access according to their reasonable pre-established policy. As a select coach I would expect less BS and I would sure take less of it.
TR, I don’t think we are too far apart on this issue. You talk the tough, rigid line but if a parent or player asked to discuss something with you and did so in a professional respectful manner, I doubt that you’d turn them away. If it were anything less than that, I might even beat you in showing them the door.
The key to handling these situations is to do what you say you do. Communicate the expectations before the season. This way many problems never surface because the parents and players know what is expected. Things still come up and should be dealt with by both parties professionally. If the parents and players respect the coach and all parties have some class to begin with, there are fewer problems and very few things that can't be solved. It seems in this area, a coach and parent reap what they sew. Good coaches seem to have good players and good players seem to have good parents....... usually
I apologize for continuing this dialog but I fail to understand the criticism of my approach. We have a parent meeting prior to the first game. It contains 8 pages of info covering everything from "Qualities of a Baseball Knight" to parental involvement. It sets an exact procedure to follow. That procedure includes having my boss there. Therefore, if you wanted to vent to him about any concerns, you are not only addressing me, you are also bringing up that concern to my boss. How could anyone question that.
SBK, well said -- "Good coaches seem to have good players and good players seem to have good parents......."
SBK, well said -- "Good coaches seem to have good players and good players seem to have good parents......."
How you approach someone has alot to do with how they respond to you. If I had a parent come up to me (not before a practice or a game) and asked me the way PG put it "Coach Im curious why do you guys not use a double cut"? I wouldnt have any problem explaining why we didnt and why we do it the way we do. How you approach people and when and where has alot to do with the way the conversation is going to go regardless of what is actually said. Mutual respect and an understanding of where each party is coming from goes a long way. The bottom line is there are parents that just want to meddle and be a pain in the ***. And there are incompetant coaches that try to mask their incompetance with a hard *** approach. Both are intolerable to me and I have no time for either one. But the fact is most parents are well meaning and most coaches are as well.
Interesting topic, I hope someone gets a little something out of it.
If a parent asks an intelligent question and in the right setting, coaches are likely to respond. If they are just complaining about things and don’t show some degree of baseball knowledge, good coaches just cringe.
As much as I appreciate and respect the coaching profession, I do know there are “some” parents who have better baseball minds than “some” coaches. These "wise" parents pick up on the "foolish" parents quickly and tend to avoid contact with them.
You guys that are good coaches know people who are bad coaches and you know parents who are outstanding baseball people. Sometimes they (bad coaches) do the stupidest things and it works. It used to make me sick when we got beat by a team that was poorly coached and won by doing something stupid. Then to see the stupid coach acting like he is some kind of genius, made me even more ill. I suppose you’ve all been there.
I think when these type discussions take place, we tend to generalize too much. I think the very best, most respected coaches don’t deal with as much meddling as often as some others. I’d bet that Coach B25 and Coach May really don’t have a big problem with this stuff. Because the parents who truly understand the game and what’s going on tend to appreciate what’s going on.
We used to tell our team… If there’s 2,000 people watching us play… we are only interested in impressing the few who truly understand the game. The rest are full of questions… Why didn’t he send him?... Why did he send him?... Why did they do this?... Why did they do that? There’s always a few people that know the answers and understand, so long as you’re doing things right. Most people do not know, but feel like complaining.
I do understand why good coaches don’t want to discuss things at times. I think it depends on who, what, when and how the discussion is handled.
If a parent asks an intelligent question and in the right setting, coaches are likely to respond. If they are just complaining about things and don’t show some degree of baseball knowledge, good coaches just cringe.
As much as I appreciate and respect the coaching profession, I do know there are “some” parents who have better baseball minds than “some” coaches. These "wise" parents pick up on the "foolish" parents quickly and tend to avoid contact with them.
You guys that are good coaches know people who are bad coaches and you know parents who are outstanding baseball people. Sometimes they (bad coaches) do the stupidest things and it works. It used to make me sick when we got beat by a team that was poorly coached and won by doing something stupid. Then to see the stupid coach acting like he is some kind of genius, made me even more ill. I suppose you’ve all been there.
I think when these type discussions take place, we tend to generalize too much. I think the very best, most respected coaches don’t deal with as much meddling as often as some others. I’d bet that Coach B25 and Coach May really don’t have a big problem with this stuff. Because the parents who truly understand the game and what’s going on tend to appreciate what’s going on.
We used to tell our team… If there’s 2,000 people watching us play… we are only interested in impressing the few who truly understand the game. The rest are full of questions… Why didn’t he send him?... Why did he send him?... Why did they do this?... Why did they do that? There’s always a few people that know the answers and understand, so long as you’re doing things right. Most people do not know, but feel like complaining.
I do understand why good coaches don’t want to discuss things at times. I think it depends on who, what, when and how the discussion is handled.
Great Post PG I totally agree. Its like I have always told my catchers. No one that hasnt got a clue about baseball is going to notice what a great job you do tonight. They are never going to notice how well you set up and recieve the ball. They will not notice how you blocked that third strike cb in the dirt and off your forearm. They will never notice how you called time and walked out the mound and settled down the pitcher all on your own or the great advice you gave him about opening up early on the delivery. They will not notice that you redirected a cut that allowed us to nail the runner at second base in the third inning. Why should you care if someone that has no clue notices what you do so well? But gentleman the people in those stands and in that other dug out as well as ours will notice. And those are the people that you want to leave a lasting impression on. Because those are the people that matter.
Well said also, Coach May & CoachB & PG. Good stuff in this thread for all to read.
Never had too much trouble with parents but there were a couple who tried to make things miserable. I talk to some of the guys I coached against that are still doing it and a general theme is it is a lot different. they all seem to say that increasingly parents(and I am sure they mean some not all) make things difficult.
These threads that talk about parent meddling, playing time, etc. always confound me. Perhaps I am confused because of my experiences playing sports. From playing football from 4th grade until I graduated, wrestling from 7th grade until I graduated, playing ice hockey from birth through college, in all those years, I can not remember one time that my parents ever talked to my coaches about anything... I don't even have any recollection or knowledge of ANY player's parents complaining to coaches about their kid's playing time.
It may have happened, but I was blind to it. For that matter, as a player, I knew why a kid was starting in front of me and never remember a better kid sitting on the bench while a lesser player started. Has so much changed?
I would have been MORTIFIED if my parents had complained about my playing time or even worse if they approached the coach about play calling or strategy. Good grief!
I earned my playing time and I expect my sons to do the same. If the coach feels that other kids should start ahead of my sons, so be it. It provides the opportunity for my son's to work harder and learn from it. If they want to discuss playing time or plays with the coach, then I encourage it, but I will NEVER interfere in that relationship. The only time I would say anything to a coach is if I felt my son could be harmed or injured. Other than that, let the coaches, coach. JMO.
It may have happened, but I was blind to it. For that matter, as a player, I knew why a kid was starting in front of me and never remember a better kid sitting on the bench while a lesser player started. Has so much changed?
I would have been MORTIFIED if my parents had complained about my playing time or even worse if they approached the coach about play calling or strategy. Good grief!
I earned my playing time and I expect my sons to do the same. If the coach feels that other kids should start ahead of my sons, so be it. It provides the opportunity for my son's to work harder and learn from it. If they want to discuss playing time or plays with the coach, then I encourage it, but I will NEVER interfere in that relationship. The only time I would say anything to a coach is if I felt my son could be harmed or injured. Other than that, let the coaches, coach. JMO.
PGStaff, you're right. I really never have problems with parents. The one incident that I cite was actually a parent that wasn't even supposed to be around the kid (restraining order that had never been enforced). However, we were not told this and so, when he attacked, I was caught off guard. However, that incident is on my record and so...
Quick story, this year, I came to class and a set of parents were waiting. I was uneasy to say the least. They didn't want to talk at all about playing time etc. They were concerned that their son was embarassed, or depressed or... because he had let them down due to not earning a starting spot. They simply wanted to know how to open up the lines of communication because he was so hard to talk to. That was an easy meeting and totally appropriate. I talked to the son that night during practice. I told him how much his mom and dad loved him. Then, I asked him to be the son he would want his son to be and talk to them. His main problem he felt shame. Since that day and after our talk, he has done better in practice and has, in fact earned a starting job when one of our kids pitches. The result was two differnt kids. One kid couldn't play because he was so nervous. The other one is fantastic in the field. Well, again, I go too long.
Quick story, this year, I came to class and a set of parents were waiting. I was uneasy to say the least. They didn't want to talk at all about playing time etc. They were concerned that their son was embarassed, or depressed or... because he had let them down due to not earning a starting spot. They simply wanted to know how to open up the lines of communication because he was so hard to talk to. That was an easy meeting and totally appropriate. I talked to the son that night during practice. I told him how much his mom and dad loved him. Then, I asked him to be the son he would want his son to be and talk to them. His main problem he felt shame. Since that day and after our talk, he has done better in practice and has, in fact earned a starting job when one of our kids pitches. The result was two differnt kids. One kid couldn't play because he was so nervous. The other one is fantastic in the field. Well, again, I go too long.
Callaway,
I think you have the right attitude. I've never complained to a coach either. I have had lots of discussions however, usually started by the coach. I don't ever remember an argument.
CoachB25,
Somehow I would have bet, that you operated that way. You never go too long.
Will,
We've all had the miserable experiences. And I'd like to think we've all had the absolute "super" parents, too.
Coach May,
I bet you're an outstanding coach as is CoachB25.
SBK,
I think you are really smart when it comes to baseball.
Really, I think everyone who has been involved on this thread has brought up some very good points. Despite the slight differences in opinions, this one did not dive off the cliff. Thanks to all, this is enjoyable... SO FAR!
I think the info could help a few parents understand things they never thought of.
I think you have the right attitude. I've never complained to a coach either. I have had lots of discussions however, usually started by the coach. I don't ever remember an argument.
CoachB25,
Somehow I would have bet, that you operated that way. You never go too long.
Will,
We've all had the miserable experiences. And I'd like to think we've all had the absolute "super" parents, too.
Coach May,
I bet you're an outstanding coach as is CoachB25.
SBK,
I think you are really smart when it comes to baseball.
Really, I think everyone who has been involved on this thread has brought up some very good points. Despite the slight differences in opinions, this one did not dive off the cliff. Thanks to all, this is enjoyable... SO FAR!
I think the info could help a few parents understand things they never thought of.
On Sunday I got on our catcher a bit too hard during a game because he wouldn't stay down on the ball and then after a couple key passed balls that weren't even in the dirt and might have gotten strike calls I pulled him when I changed pitchers after he also talked back about staying down.
His Dad read me the riot act after the game. I just stood there and took it as is my policy on these things.
Last night my son was taking a hitting lesson and out of nowhere the hitting instructor who had seen the first couple innings of Saturday's game tells me that he got on my catcher because the kid hadn't gone to his knees on a single pitch while the hitting instructor was there. This was after their catching instructor had worked hard with the kid on that aspect of the game. I asked the hitting instructor if the catching instructor had also worked with the kid on getting rid of the ball quickly and the answer was yes as I had anticipated. Popping up and being ready to throw is a lot more fun than staying down and blocking the low balls.
His Dad read me the riot act after the game. I just stood there and took it as is my policy on these things.
Last night my son was taking a hitting lesson and out of nowhere the hitting instructor who had seen the first couple innings of Saturday's game tells me that he got on my catcher because the kid hadn't gone to his knees on a single pitch while the hitting instructor was there. This was after their catching instructor had worked hard with the kid on that aspect of the game. I asked the hitting instructor if the catching instructor had also worked with the kid on getting rid of the ball quickly and the answer was yes as I had anticipated. Popping up and being ready to throw is a lot more fun than staying down and blocking the low balls.
CADad
You say you were too hard. dont beat yourself up. What were you supposed to do give him a trophy. He talked back. Butt on the bench for a while. then the father reads you the riot act. Why because you did what a coach is supposed to do? Gee the kid is not doing the job. what are you supposed to do. If it had been some other kid what would the father have done?
You say you were too hard. dont beat yourself up. What were you supposed to do give him a trophy. He talked back. Butt on the bench for a while. then the father reads you the riot act. Why because you did what a coach is supposed to do? Gee the kid is not doing the job. what are you supposed to do. If it had been some other kid what would the father have done?
Coaches...?? I have seen many verbal reprimands of players on the field, in the game, at very inappropriate times this year more than ever. I have seen coaches yell and get in the face of umpires for the smallest things...Are you saying this is OK because they are a coach? I believe what I have witnessed is more about losing and coaching experience and aptitude.
Please explain...I feel this is the basis for parents today becoming more involved than ever. IMO a coach NEVER has the authority to verbally yell or abuse a player on the field. There is a time and a place for direction and correction, and it is NOT on the field in a game, in front of his peers with parents and fans in the stands.
I am interested to hear your thoughts.
Please explain...I feel this is the basis for parents today becoming more involved than ever. IMO a coach NEVER has the authority to verbally yell or abuse a player on the field. There is a time and a place for direction and correction, and it is NOT on the field in a game, in front of his peers with parents and fans in the stands.
I am interested to hear your thoughts.
Poor little Starzzzy. He got yelled at. Even though he's been asked nicely several times. Shown the correct way several times. He still won't do it. But, please don't yell at him in front of everyone. Please.
It appears the coach and little Starzzzy have different goals. Maybe they should go their separate ways. Starzzzy is into feelings. The coach is into baseball development.
It appears the coach and little Starzzzy have different goals. Maybe they should go their separate ways. Starzzzy is into feelings. The coach is into baseball development.
Starzz,
Depends on the player. The one thing that holds constant is that the sooner you can correct a player who has made a mental error, the more likely the correction is to be effective. Kids are a lot like puppydogs that way. The umpires aren't going to allow us to call time and make a nice quiet correction for every single misplay so we have to tell the kid out loud and usually we have to yell to be heard.
We've been telling this particular kid how to hide his signs for weeks. I told him quietly. I told him out loud. I yelled. Nothing helped. I finally intentionally embarassed him. He hid his signs for the rest of the game. A game later he was back to his old habits. My other catcher is our shortstop and only catches as a "hobby" so I don't like to have him catch any more than necessary. Since this kid wants to be a catcher and is too slow to play any other position than catcher effectively I try to keep him at catcher if it doesn't hurt us too much.
Depends on the player. The one thing that holds constant is that the sooner you can correct a player who has made a mental error, the more likely the correction is to be effective. Kids are a lot like puppydogs that way. The umpires aren't going to allow us to call time and make a nice quiet correction for every single misplay so we have to tell the kid out loud and usually we have to yell to be heard.
We've been telling this particular kid how to hide his signs for weeks. I told him quietly. I told him out loud. I yelled. Nothing helped. I finally intentionally embarassed him. He hid his signs for the rest of the game. A game later he was back to his old habits. My other catcher is our shortstop and only catches as a "hobby" so I don't like to have him catch any more than necessary. Since this kid wants to be a catcher and is too slow to play any other position than catcher effectively I try to keep him at catcher if it doesn't hurt us too much.
Again, one of the best ways to modify inapprpriate behaviors or failure to 'try' is to sit kids on the bench......and you never know about the short stop who catches as a hobby......catching could be his ticket in the future.....one never knows that at age 13-14.
Parents are not a part of the team, no matter what anybody says.
Parents are not a part of the team, no matter what anybody says.
Starzz, please don't ever make it to one of my games. Some thoughts:
- Yelling isn't appropriate all of the time. It loses it's effect. However, is is sometimes appropriate.
- I often wonder about coaches that never get emotinally into the game. I wonder if they have very much invested in that team.
- Some people are yellers. I am. I am also the first to sprint to the area leading back to the dugout to "high five" the kid that laid down the sac bunt or hit the big fly.
- No coach can be effective if they are only a yeller. I get away with it because my kids put up with it. No coach is great by themselves. They need the kids and they need the kids to want to play for them. Besides yelling, I also spend an tremendous amount of time laughing with them.
- I agree with the statements constantly made on here that there are coaches who's actions just can't be defended. Some people are not in it for the kids. When that day happens for me, I'll get out.
- If you ever want to know about a coach, just ask the kids. They will tell you.
A good coach offers both the steel and the velvet.
As both a coach and a parent, I think I can see both sides. There's only been a time or two when parents came to me about their kids playing time. And both times, the parents when ballistic cursing, yelling. I kept my calm, told them the "facts" as I saw it, and said my position didn't change. Didn't hear from them after that, and the kid has been busting his butt ever since (similar issue as cadad). As a coach, the parents know they can call me and we'll talk. Not a problem.
As a dad, I've bitten my lip twice now. In his middle school game, the coach let his #1 pitcher go a complete game throwing about 150 pitches. I cringed. I mentioned something to the parents, asking if they kept pitch counts. They just shrugged, so I let it go.
But if that were my kid on the mound, I would certainly say something to the coach.
As a dad, I've bitten my lip twice now. In his middle school game, the coach let his #1 pitcher go a complete game throwing about 150 pitches. I cringed. I mentioned something to the parents, asking if they kept pitch counts. They just shrugged, so I let it go.
But if that were my kid on the mound, I would certainly say something to the coach.
Grateful,
In this particular instance I agree. My shortstop is a better catcher now and has the potential to be a better catcher in the future. He's lost speed relative to the other kids and although he still has decent range and understands how to play shortstop he's not going to play that position in a few years unless something changes. His best bet is probably catcher. However, I've never felt that you can force a kid to catch. That's one position they have to want to play. Our coach forced the pitchers to catch for each other when I was 14. I threw about 70 and our other pitcher was up around 80. I didn't want to be there. Hindsight tells me that it was my best shot at going anywhere in baseball if I'd been willing to work at it.
In this particular instance I agree. My shortstop is a better catcher now and has the potential to be a better catcher in the future. He's lost speed relative to the other kids and although he still has decent range and understands how to play shortstop he's not going to play that position in a few years unless something changes. His best bet is probably catcher. However, I've never felt that you can force a kid to catch. That's one position they have to want to play. Our coach forced the pitchers to catch for each other when I was 14. I threw about 70 and our other pitcher was up around 80. I didn't want to be there. Hindsight tells me that it was my best shot at going anywhere in baseball if I'd been willing to work at it.
Take the following for what it’s worth… probably very little to most.
Personally, I never was a yeller during games. I've seen some very good coaches who were. I've seen those I consider among the very worst coaches of all who were the loudest yellers of all.
If a coach has done a good job of preparing the players, there shouldn't be much to yell about at the games. It’s kind of like punishment, the better you coach the less punishment you need to hand out.
I did sometimes yell at team meetings and closed practices. To me the team and the individual player were the same thing. The outside world did not have to hear what was said. Others on the team might learn from what was said.
Usually the best approach and the best results came from “one on one” discussion with a player. Most players really respect this and what can be more important to a coach than to have his players respect him?
I don't have any real opinion on "yelling". I do think it all depends on why and where the yelling takes place.
We've all seen the coaches who are obviously just "showing off". Sometimes when the team screws up the coach yells to make sure everyone knows it was the player not his coaching that is the problem. Sometimes the coach will make the team stay and run until they’re all sick. This tells everyone it’s the players that are the problem not the coaching.
IMO Much of this comes from the coaches’ background. He will have a tendency to do things the way he was exposed to things. I will always remember an experience with one of my favorite coaches.
We had lost a very important game largely because of one player having a brain cramp. The player selfishly went outside the things we were all taught and cost us the game. Not a word was said and I was very surprised how cool our coach acted. When we got in the bus, all hell broke loose! That player and none of the rest of us would ever make that same mistake as long as we live. That same player ended up being a college All American.
Yes, I've seen the player who deserves to be yelled at. I just never did it in front of a crowd or his family!
IMO A coach should never deliberately embarrass a player. Not saying that this is right, it’s just my opinion.
If I have to embarrass a player to get what’s required, I want someone other than that player in the game. Besides can you really get more out of a kid by embarrassing him? I suppose there are a few that would react favorably to embarrassment… In those cases you would be doing them a favor.
Personally, I never was a yeller during games. I've seen some very good coaches who were. I've seen those I consider among the very worst coaches of all who were the loudest yellers of all.
If a coach has done a good job of preparing the players, there shouldn't be much to yell about at the games. It’s kind of like punishment, the better you coach the less punishment you need to hand out.
I did sometimes yell at team meetings and closed practices. To me the team and the individual player were the same thing. The outside world did not have to hear what was said. Others on the team might learn from what was said.
Usually the best approach and the best results came from “one on one” discussion with a player. Most players really respect this and what can be more important to a coach than to have his players respect him?
I don't have any real opinion on "yelling". I do think it all depends on why and where the yelling takes place.
We've all seen the coaches who are obviously just "showing off". Sometimes when the team screws up the coach yells to make sure everyone knows it was the player not his coaching that is the problem. Sometimes the coach will make the team stay and run until they’re all sick. This tells everyone it’s the players that are the problem not the coaching.
IMO Much of this comes from the coaches’ background. He will have a tendency to do things the way he was exposed to things. I will always remember an experience with one of my favorite coaches.
We had lost a very important game largely because of one player having a brain cramp. The player selfishly went outside the things we were all taught and cost us the game. Not a word was said and I was very surprised how cool our coach acted. When we got in the bus, all hell broke loose! That player and none of the rest of us would ever make that same mistake as long as we live. That same player ended up being a college All American.
Yes, I've seen the player who deserves to be yelled at. I just never did it in front of a crowd or his family!
IMO A coach should never deliberately embarrass a player. Not saying that this is right, it’s just my opinion.
If I have to embarrass a player to get what’s required, I want someone other than that player in the game. Besides can you really get more out of a kid by embarrassing him? I suppose there are a few that would react favorably to embarrassment… In those cases you would be doing them a favor.
Teacherman...no response is necessary to your always slamming comments. If you are talking about my son, then your reference to "little starzzy" is incorrect. He is an intelligent young man and as a captain, handles these situations on his team. It is not about my son that I bring this up, it is about what is happening in baseball today.
As for an educated, mostly always insightful comment, I applaud PG again! PG is right on the money and I agree PG's comments are the best way to coach and be successful. You can be a successful dictator, as many coaches and leaders have been, but that doesn't teach young men a thing.
CoachB25...I have followed most of your baseball thoughts and ideas and have been very much in agreement with your way of thinking; however, if you believe that it is necessary to demean and yell at a player on the field, then I would agree not to attend your games. Correction and teaching are mostly practice situations, and all players make errors both mental and physical and you will never get their respect dealing with it in a confrontational or adverse manner during a game.
All coaches need their players, and the players need their coaches. A baseball field is not a place to deliver tough love, or be inconsistent when dealing with a situation. It is a place to teach and develop a team of young men that have a dream and need your instruction...they have the necessary skills to learn or they shouldn't be on the team. Therefore, I believe I am correct in saying that success shows up on the field in the players hands 90% of the time...and if they are successful, they believe in what you have and are teaching them. If they don't showup, which young men don't on some days, it is more teaching and less yelling that will get them back to their best level of play.
I have coached with, and watched many managers that are very emotional and involved in the moment of the battle, but most, if not all, ALWAYS let the players play the game, made their adjustments if necessary, and talked about the game after the game. Inconsistency is death to a team. I am sure you are more in agreement with me than not.
CaDad...I agree a player needs to be confronted with certain mental situations as well as physical ones, but not on the field, when they are playing. There are places and times this will be more effective and can really help a player develop. Example: a player makes a bad base-running error and costs a much needed run from scoring...Does he need to talked with? Yes. Does he need to be corrected across the diamond after it happened? No. Can you take him aside the next inning or immediately behind the dugout and help him replay the situation and TEACH him with some positive feedback? Yes. That is all I am saying here...It is not acceptable to coach from a yelling, negative point of view. Nor, to have 20, 15-17 year olds under your care to win at all costs.
I stand by my ideas...you can watch a 100 top college games or higher, and you will never see what I am talking about from a true baseball Manager/Coach during a game.
Winning Coaches know the players win or lose the game and their teaching inspires the play.
As for an educated, mostly always insightful comment, I applaud PG again! PG is right on the money and I agree PG's comments are the best way to coach and be successful. You can be a successful dictator, as many coaches and leaders have been, but that doesn't teach young men a thing.
CoachB25...I have followed most of your baseball thoughts and ideas and have been very much in agreement with your way of thinking; however, if you believe that it is necessary to demean and yell at a player on the field, then I would agree not to attend your games. Correction and teaching are mostly practice situations, and all players make errors both mental and physical and you will never get their respect dealing with it in a confrontational or adverse manner during a game.
All coaches need their players, and the players need their coaches. A baseball field is not a place to deliver tough love, or be inconsistent when dealing with a situation. It is a place to teach and develop a team of young men that have a dream and need your instruction...they have the necessary skills to learn or they shouldn't be on the team. Therefore, I believe I am correct in saying that success shows up on the field in the players hands 90% of the time...and if they are successful, they believe in what you have and are teaching them. If they don't showup, which young men don't on some days, it is more teaching and less yelling that will get them back to their best level of play.
I have coached with, and watched many managers that are very emotional and involved in the moment of the battle, but most, if not all, ALWAYS let the players play the game, made their adjustments if necessary, and talked about the game after the game. Inconsistency is death to a team. I am sure you are more in agreement with me than not.
CaDad...I agree a player needs to be confronted with certain mental situations as well as physical ones, but not on the field, when they are playing. There are places and times this will be more effective and can really help a player develop. Example: a player makes a bad base-running error and costs a much needed run from scoring...Does he need to talked with? Yes. Does he need to be corrected across the diamond after it happened? No. Can you take him aside the next inning or immediately behind the dugout and help him replay the situation and TEACH him with some positive feedback? Yes. That is all I am saying here...It is not acceptable to coach from a yelling, negative point of view. Nor, to have 20, 15-17 year olds under your care to win at all costs.
I stand by my ideas...you can watch a 100 top college games or higher, and you will never see what I am talking about from a true baseball Manager/Coach during a game.
Winning Coaches know the players win or lose the game and their teaching inspires the play.
nice post Starzz.
praise publicly, criticize privately...
praise publicly, criticize privately...
Since when have we become so soft. As a player I remembered getting chewed out for making a bone head play. did not do it again. Of course that was many years ago before we knew about all the psychological effects of such? Before coaches knew about the self esteem of players. remember in college missing a sign. I still hear coach laying into me. I survived. I remember my son calling me up after an intrasquad game his freshman year. I said how did it go. he was looking for some sympathy. Said he got picked off and the coach "yelled" at him. My advice 'dont get picked off".
Is it as simple as that? No. but sometimes you have to be tough to play this game. If you crumble over criticism of any kind it is time to play something else.
Is it as simple as that? No. but sometimes you have to be tough to play this game. If you crumble over criticism of any kind it is time to play something else.
Starzz, I respect your post (posts) and understand. I think it is also a question of what really defines "yelling." I would never yell insults. I do yell instruction and or "checkoffs" if a player is struggling. I do not believe it is in the best interst of the kid or program to demean. An example from a previous game. I yelled out, "***X, Saturday's game, you have to do better." Is this demaning? In that game, ***X was vacating his position too early on steal attempts and we had given up a couple of hit and runs. I knew that they were going to run at some time and I wanted to remind him what we worked on in practice and why. One other thing, tone certainly has a lot to do with "yelling." Purpose also has a role. We do several "verbal cues" to sitations etc. Sometimes when it appears that I'm yelling at our kids, they are really receiveing cues to defensive strategy. They and their parents have been told this in the parent's meeting. Although we don't tell the parents what the cues are, the kids let them know that they weren't really being yelled at. I believe in an earlier thread (some weeks ago) Teacherman brought up coaching the hitter in an at bat. I believe that this is the worst place to "yell" at a player. I know, you are all saying that there isn't any proper place. WEll... IMO, yelling at a hitter during an at bat will guarantee you failure. JMHO!
Coach B25
it is just a new situation. You do what you have to do to coach in today's atmosphere. I never in my 25 + years had a parents meeting before the season. Did not need to. I suppose if I were to return to coaching(no way) considering the climate I would consider it. the fact that you have to explain to parents that you are not yelling says volumes of some of the situations you and other coaches today see. but you do what you have to do. Good Luck.
it is just a new situation. You do what you have to do to coach in today's atmosphere. I never in my 25 + years had a parents meeting before the season. Did not need to. I suppose if I were to return to coaching(no way) considering the climate I would consider it. the fact that you have to explain to parents that you are not yelling says volumes of some of the situations you and other coaches today see. but you do what you have to do. Good Luck.
Starzz,
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on our portion of this. Your post was well written.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on our portion of this. Your post was well written.
and I should qualify my post to say that I agree with B25 when he says not to demean a player publicly. If they screw up, I'll certainly say something, but about the play, not the player. "TOMMY, YOU GOTTA GET IN FRONT OF THAT!". I've yelled that pretty loud many times. But I wouldn't yell "WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH YOU"...
criticize the play, not the player.
criticize the play, not the player.
A man told me as an umpire for a youth league they were instructed not to call a player out on strikes. they were told to tell the player his time at bat was over. I asked if he was kidding he said no. I am sure yelling is totally banned.
Good thread...I think we all learned something..Thanks!
Starzz, I have to say, some of the very best coaches I have ever seen yelled at his players at the drop of a hat and very publicly. My own high school basketball coach did that. His impact on my life was profound and exceedingly positive. 33 years later, I still visit with him whenever I am in my home town. The high school coach my two oldest sons have had is as tough as they come and his impact, likewise, is lifelong.
Other coaches have been very effective without saying much or by keeping it positive.
There are lots of styles and sometimes the same style works for one guy and not for another. I'll say this, I would much rather play for a coach who yells at me than sit for a coach who could not be nicer.
Other coaches have been very effective without saying much or by keeping it positive.
There are lots of styles and sometimes the same style works for one guy and not for another. I'll say this, I would much rather play for a coach who yells at me than sit for a coach who could not be nicer.
Starzz, Very good post, and well thought out. I have seen many high school and college coaches at work over the years, and have seen the real quite ones and the loud obnoxious ones both in games and at practice. I have seen the quiet parents and the obnoxious parents also.
There is a coach in your area who is retired now, but was without a doubt, the best coach I have ever seen......no one is even close to him. He picked his spots, but I have seen him really get after a player in a game, but not all the time. I have seen him ream players in practice much more often, and have seen him ream parents who butted in too.
He won 17 State Championships in 23 years and had more kids drafted and given scholarships than any coach in the Western US. I would have given anything to have him coach my boys, but we moved when they were young. He was so good, that I would fly into Vegas and just go watch his team practice, because I would see everthing that was needed in about 2 hours, and saw everthing taught the way it should be taught.Scouts were even afraid of him, but every parent wanted their boys to play for him.
There is a coach in your area who is retired now, but was without a doubt, the best coach I have ever seen......no one is even close to him. He picked his spots, but I have seen him really get after a player in a game, but not all the time. I have seen him ream players in practice much more often, and have seen him ream parents who butted in too.
He won 17 State Championships in 23 years and had more kids drafted and given scholarships than any coach in the Western US. I would have given anything to have him coach my boys, but we moved when they were young. He was so good, that I would fly into Vegas and just go watch his team practice, because I would see everthing that was needed in about 2 hours, and saw everthing taught the way it should be taught.Scouts were even afraid of him, but every parent wanted their boys to play for him.
This is just my opinion and it is not meant in anyway to suggest that those who do not do it this way are wrong. In practice I get after it. I coach my butt off. First of all I teach something and make sure that the kids understand what we want them to do. Then we constantly reinforce it. I challenge kids to work hard concentrate and put forth 100% in practice. If they do not hustle or they fail to execute properly I let them know right away. I want them to practice at game speed and I want them to practice with a sense of urgency. I do not yell at physical mistakes. I will ream them for fundemental mistakes that they have been drilled in and properly taught. I will ream them for not getting after it. I will ream them for hanging their head after making an error. All this is practice mentality. When its game day I want a relaxed atmosphere , I want their attention to be on executing like they have practiced. I never yell during a game for mistakes. I call them over one on one and tell them what they did wrong and tell them not to worry about it and make the next play. I want them concentrating on making the next play not me. I want them to focus on the next opportunity not me. Game day is time for making plays and finding a way to win a game not me. I prepare them to win and then get out of the way and allow them to win. Sure you make bunt calls or steal calls line up moves etc. But Im a firm believer that no kid has ever make an error on purpose. Ripping them during a game in my opinion only adds to the pucker factor. JMO
Nice post Coach May!
The pucker factor??
nice post, Coach May! I agree with you. You don't want kids afraid to make plays..
nice post, Coach May! I agree with you. You don't want kids afraid to make plays..
quote:Originally posted by Coach May:
This is just my opinion and it is not meant in anyway to suggest that those who do not do it this way are wrong. In practice I get after it. I coach my butt off. First of all I teach something and make sure that the kids understand what we want them to do. Then we constantly reinforce it. I challenge kids to work hard concentrate and put forth 100% in practice. If they do not hustle or they fail to execute properly I let them know right away. I want them to practice at game speed and I want them to practice with a sense of urgency. I do not yell at physical mistakes. I will ream them for fundemental mistakes that they have been drilled in and properly taught. I will ream them for not getting after it. I will ream them for hanging their head after making an error. All this is practice mentality. When its game day I want a relaxed atmosphere , I want their attention to be on executing like they have practiced. I never yell during a game for mistakes. I call them over one on one and tell them what they did wrong and tell them not to worry about it and make the next play. I want them concentrating on making the next play not me. I want them to focus on the next opportunity not me. Game day is time for making plays and finding a way to win a game not me. I prepare them to win and then get out of the way and allow them to win. Sure you make bunt calls or steal calls line up moves etc. But Im a firm believer that no kid has ever make an error on purpose. Ripping them during a game in my opinion only adds to the pucker factor. JMO
Coach May, On game day, if you have a kid not run out a ball or hang his head or not get after it, do you just act casual? Do you quietly call a player over and mention to him that he forgot to run out a ground ball?
bbscout...you are very right!! I saw him just last week...GV misses him and so does the city. A great coach. After his fall practice you never had to worry about making mistakes...he drilled you until you were a genius..in your sleep!
If a kid does not hustle ie run out a ground ball or pop up I sit him. I tell him why he is coming out of the game. Do I have to yell out across the field at him to make my point? I dont think I do. What good does it do. You put him on the bench if that is not enough punishment for not hustling what is? In practice like I said I am intense and I expect 100% focus and we get after it. In a game I want my players to play like they practice. But I want them to know that its ok if they make an error because they are human. I want them to want the next ball hit to them. I back them up and give them positive reinforcement when we are doing battle because I know that they want to win as bad as I do. When I start yelling at them and bereating them in the heat of battle I am no longer fighting with them but against them. Do I want them to sit in the dugout and talk trash about me sending a runner home and he gets thrown out? I want the same support in return. Treat people the way you would want to be treated. Dont get me wrong I will get after it if I need to. But not in front of the fans or the opposing team. There is a time and place and a way to do it that leaves the kid his respect and yours as well. JMO
A few things from my perspective here:
01-- I realize that I am an old warhorse and the day has passed for the "heavy handed coach"-
02-- The guys I played for back in the "dark ages" were tobacco chewing, tobaccos spitting hard nose guys--am I any worse for it ? I think not but some of the things they did back then would be considered "abuse" today
EXAMPLE-- when I was 12 years of age I was a 5 ft 6 inch infielder but we were 0-4 because our catching was weak. We had a 10 year on the bench who was a super player ( he later signed with the Pirates)and we needed to get him ointo our lineup regularly---after the 4th loss on a 90 degree Saturday yours truly was asked to join the entire coaching staff(4),as well as my dad who was an ex semi pro catcher, at the adjacent field--4 hours later we had a new catcher--YOURS TRULY--- you and I know that this would not be permitted in todays atmosphere of "don't hurt the kid--spare the rod". Bottom line we didn't lose for the rest of the year and the new kid on third was a stud at 10 years of age.
03-- Yes I manage a team today but I also have two coaches or more who coach in todays "atmosphere"--they run the game while I manage in the dugout and instruct the kids and I also take care of any disagreements with "blue" as I am expendable--the players and coaches are not--the system obviously works as we have been quite successful.
04-- Do I sometimes get back into my old mold while in the dugout? Yes, but is a more toned down manner that it used it be. Still stern but perhaps not as brusque
05- No we do not have parent meetings--the kids and the parents know what we are about when they join us-- there is no meddling because they know where we are at, myself and my coaches, and we have a job to do with their sons which is more than winning games--it is getting them into college. And our kids know they can talk with any of us when they have a problem.
Bottom Line--you learn to adjust as much as possible and obviously the parents do not hear what we have to say or how we say in the dugout or down the foul line under a shady tree after the game--I somehow think the parents know where they stand with us and for the most part keep their distance when we talk with the team.
One last thing-- as a coach you have to know your players--some you can jump on and be heavy others need to be handled more softly.
01-- I realize that I am an old warhorse and the day has passed for the "heavy handed coach"-
02-- The guys I played for back in the "dark ages" were tobacco chewing, tobaccos spitting hard nose guys--am I any worse for it ? I think not but some of the things they did back then would be considered "abuse" today
EXAMPLE-- when I was 12 years of age I was a 5 ft 6 inch infielder but we were 0-4 because our catching was weak. We had a 10 year on the bench who was a super player ( he later signed with the Pirates)and we needed to get him ointo our lineup regularly---after the 4th loss on a 90 degree Saturday yours truly was asked to join the entire coaching staff(4),as well as my dad who was an ex semi pro catcher, at the adjacent field--4 hours later we had a new catcher--YOURS TRULY--- you and I know that this would not be permitted in todays atmosphere of "don't hurt the kid--spare the rod". Bottom line we didn't lose for the rest of the year and the new kid on third was a stud at 10 years of age.
03-- Yes I manage a team today but I also have two coaches or more who coach in todays "atmosphere"--they run the game while I manage in the dugout and instruct the kids and I also take care of any disagreements with "blue" as I am expendable--the players and coaches are not--the system obviously works as we have been quite successful.
04-- Do I sometimes get back into my old mold while in the dugout? Yes, but is a more toned down manner that it used it be. Still stern but perhaps not as brusque
05- No we do not have parent meetings--the kids and the parents know what we are about when they join us-- there is no meddling because they know where we are at, myself and my coaches, and we have a job to do with their sons which is more than winning games--it is getting them into college. And our kids know they can talk with any of us when they have a problem.
Bottom Line--you learn to adjust as much as possible and obviously the parents do not hear what we have to say or how we say in the dugout or down the foul line under a shady tree after the game--I somehow think the parents know where they stand with us and for the most part keep their distance when we talk with the team.
One last thing-- as a coach you have to know your players--some you can jump on and be heavy others need to be handled more softly.
Trhit
I too was brought up in that atmosphere and believe it or not I survived. I coached much the same way. I was tough. Kids knew where I stood and what I expected from them. It worked well with me. If they needed a boot in the but they got it. If they did not do what they were supposed to do they heard about it. No sugar coating. Yes I sometimes yelled and they knew I was upset. They handled it. Could I do that today? But I guess that is why I am sitting in front of my computer and not getting ready for a big game or practice. As far as parents meddling. They did not. I kept a distance but was always polite and answered their inquiries. My perspective was the team and 18-20 players and how they could come together and be successful. their perpective was their son. And that is perfectly understandable. I could deal with that. I went to a game the other day and the parents were standing behind the bench talking to their sons. I guess they did because they could.
I too was brought up in that atmosphere and believe it or not I survived. I coached much the same way. I was tough. Kids knew where I stood and what I expected from them. It worked well with me. If they needed a boot in the but they got it. If they did not do what they were supposed to do they heard about it. No sugar coating. Yes I sometimes yelled and they knew I was upset. They handled it. Could I do that today? But I guess that is why I am sitting in front of my computer and not getting ready for a big game or practice. As far as parents meddling. They did not. I kept a distance but was always polite and answered their inquiries. My perspective was the team and 18-20 players and how they could come together and be successful. their perpective was their son. And that is perfectly understandable. I could deal with that. I went to a game the other day and the parents were standing behind the bench talking to their sons. I guess they did because they could.
